Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Just for clarification, it's not the speed or faster travel that changes the terminal velocity, it is the force of gravity that does it. The bigger is the force of gravity, the bigger force of air drag needs to be to equalized gravity which results in 0 acceleration. Terminal velocity is the speed in which there is no longer any acceleration. Stacking multiple lashings results in greater gravitational force, which means a bigger force of air drag is needed to cancel it out, and therefore you can accelerate longer which increases terminal velocity. I know you know this, so I just want to clarify that so there is no confusion.

Yep, thank you, that's my bad.

[cometaryorbit]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why would it be fast at all? Reverse lashings are incredibly stormlight efficient.

[...]

A Windrunner can grab a rock, push thirty or so basic lashings on it, and send it shooting towards the Mistborn at 205.8m/s^2

Healing. The Windrunner will be taking coin wounds, and I don't think your normal 3rd ideal can just ignore those ... nearly 4th ideal but not quite there like RoW Kaladin, maybe - but the level of healing we see from Shallan's crossbow bolt in OB, coins will be a major problem, they can't just heal over and over.

A Windrunner can't affect the rock once its left their hand, so I kind of doubt theyd hit a moving Mistborn with one. Not because the Mistborn is necessarily dodging it, but because they'd be moving in a way that you couldn't hit them with a projectile short of sheer luck.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And how fast are the coins Mistborn fire? They are not faster then gunshots, and they are not supersonic either. They can be blocked by simple wooden shields, so they are not moving all that fast.

Now, this is a can of worms...

The lack of sonic boom mentions suggest they're subsonic, but I don't think they'd be nearly as effective as weapons as they're shown to be at those speeds. A coin hitting flat side on (which it will short of truly incredible Allomantic skill) can't really penetrate deep into flesh due to impact depth (too much flesh to push out of the way for its momentum). Bullets are longer than their width (even old musket balls are symmetrical, which is way better than a coin).

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Healing. The Windrunner will be taking coin wounds, and I don't think your normal 3rd ideal can just ignore those ... nearly 4th ideal but not quite there like RoW Kaladin, maybe - but the level of healing we see from Shallan's crossbow bolt in OB, coins will be a major problem, they can't just heal over and over.

If it weren't for the fact that the bolt was in her brain it wouldn't have mattered, Kaladin had his spine severed several times, but still had stormlight.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If it weren't for the fact that the bolt was in her brain it wouldn't have mattered, Kaladin had his spine severed several times, but still had stormlight.

I know, but I'm not sure if the difference in healing is due to:

a. Shallan at base 3rd ideal and Kaladin being nearly 4th ideal in some respects, eg resisting the suppressor fabrial;

b. Brain wound vs spine wound

c. The crossbow bolt staying *in the wound* vs the knife leaving

d. Different Orders (seems unlikely to me, though)

 

I was thinking c. and likely some of a. in which case a coin which stayed stuck in the wound would be a problem.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why go with the bridge runs?

In OB Chapter 48 someone holding stormlight can run over a Rosharan mile while carrying full gear and rations in under six minutes(OB 465 & 466). That's over 10 mph, while carrying around 68 pounds(given modern military equipment and ration weight, so it's probably more than that, but under Rosharan gravity it should work out the same). Using the military's formula, and assuming that Dehry weighs 175 pounds, he could do it in a little under 4 minutes, or over 15 mph at the slowest. Now the truely increadible thing is there's no downsides, and you can just keep going forever.

On page 348 of TFE Vin says that they were slower than a gallpping horse, even when flaring pewter, so I guess pewter would be faster.

To be fair this is very specifically a gravitation thing.  They were limit testing partial lashing.  There comes a point where just flying is faster than a foot race... in both magic systems.  The math puts pewter in the 25-30mph range for extended periods of time (until the run out of pewter) which is significantly higher than the average world stage 100meter dashes at 19-20 mph.  That is without the aid of using their flying powers to help.  Pure pewter.  

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Radiants fell the 100-200 feet into the chasms without trouble, and Windrunners will routinely drop tens of feet to the ground.

I wasnt really using that example to show how far she could fall.  Mostly discussing her vertical jump potential on pewter alone and the fact that pewter puts her into cat mode.  If given a single coin Vin could fall from any height and be fine... and as Miles / the radiants show us healing can rebuild your legs as fast as you can fall.  

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

And what advantages does that give you? You can push on it, great. How does that help you as that won't push the radiant back, and when they are coming towards you they won't be holding the reverse lashing.

I think you miss the point. I wasnt saying use it to push the radiant back.  You can use it to push yourself away from the radiant.  It doesn't matter which person goes which direction for the fact to stand that absorbing a coin shot to the shield opens distance and helps reset for the mistborn.  And if the radiant comes at an angle with which the mistborn can no longer move then the mistborn on pewter becomes the anchor and the radiant gets moved.  

My whole point with that is that a shield to absorb the coin is a gap opener for the mistborn.  The mistborn will have that anchor or they will have the coin.  If it ends up behind the radiant then the radiant gets it ripped through them.  

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

F=MA, small rocks with more lashings would hit just as hard as larger ones.

This is the entire point of the Ashby papers.  Momentum gives you more pass throughs on larger targets than kinetic energy alone.  The lighter projectile is going to be more prone to the air resistance (I guess this is more a density thing than weight alone) and it is going to slow down drastically faster once it meets other resistance... like hitting a person.  

The 2 magics work drastically different than each other.  Distance is a huge factor here as well.  It will be easier to aim in closer quarters for each but for the mistborn the nature of pushing means faster and more force earlier on.  The rock actually continues to fall until the stormlight is gone.  (Is that based on how much stormlight you put on it?  If mass determines the amount of stormlight needed does that mean the rock would fall for less time before normal gravity works on it?)  The rock gets to continue its momentum until that time and once it hits its terminal velocity (whatever that may be) it will be capped in whatever damage that rock will do.  But the damage dealt by the rock is only going to ramp up over distance.  The mistborn is the opposite in that.  Playing at closer ranges the mistborn is going to have more force with each ranged attack than the radiant will at a closer range.   

Just outside of spear range is where the mistborn will be the most dangerous.  I think they have all the means to stay there if the radiant uses a shield to stop coins.  If the radiant throws rocks the mistborn is actually going to fair better in that range because the rock can only fall as hard as it can fall for the lashings it is given.  If the mistborn is just out of spear range how much energy do you think a rock can land with?  It's never being propelled its always just being pulled down by whatever the gravity is.  

There is also the need for the radiant to take the time to be gathering the rocks.  (Can a radiant use gravitation through their feet?  We see them all reach out and touch to use gravitation but I assume they could probably fudge some rules and go to battle barefoot.) 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

We do see it.

WoK: Szeth has to use multiple lashings to move the stone he cut out of the wall, to break down the balcony while fighting Gavilar, etc.

WoR:  Szeth used them multiple times in the fight with King Havavanar, Kaladin burned through all of his stormlight making lashings for a singe kick etc.

I can go on, but we have dozens of examples of multiple lashings making you go faster.

Those weren't really instances where they were aiming for speed.  Kaladin and the kick is the only one you mention here where it wasnt gravity being increased to break structures free of themselves.  A couch sized stone from the wall is going to be just as effective no matter the speed.  Szeth was trying to overcome the friction between the stone surfaces.  

All of these instances are using heavy objects and momentum to do what they need.  I agree a nice dense piece of stone would move at a fair clip.  There is a point where the air resistance is too much.  

 

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

To be fair this is very specifically a gravitation thing.  They were limit testing partial lashing.

The under six minutes was just holding stormlight.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think you miss the point. I wasnt saying use it to push the radiant back.  You can use it to push yourself away from the radiant.  It doesn't matter which person goes which direction for the fact to stand that absorbing a coin shot to the shield opens distance and helps reset for the mistborn.

That's less effective than just droping coins and jumping.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My whole point with that is that a shield to absorb the coin is a gap opener for the mistborn.  The mistborn will have that anchor or they will have the coin.  If it ends up behind the radiant then the radiant gets it ripped through them.

You can't pull on something directly behind someone anymore than you can pull on it inside somone, their investiture will interfere with it. With duralumin you could probably do it, but on it's own no. Now if the steel line doesn't have to go through them than sure you could pull on it, but then it won't go through them.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is the entire point of the Ashby papers.  Momentum gives you more pass throughs on larger targets than kinetic energy alone.  The lighter projectile is going to be more prone to the air resistance (I guess this is more a density thing than weight alone) and it is going to slow down drastically faster once it meets other resistance... like hitting a person.

Smaller objects have less matter to push through.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

here is also the need for the radiant to take the time to be gathering the rocks.  (Can a radiant use gravitation through their feet?  We see them all reach out and touch to use gravitation but I assume they could probably fudge some rules and go to battle barefoot.) 

They can use full lashings with their feet, so I don't know why not. And why does the Mistborn get coins if they can't get rocks?

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Those weren't really instances where they were aiming for speed.  Kaladin and the kick is the only one you mention here where it wasnt gravity being increased to break structures free of themselves.  A couch sized stone from the wall is going to be just as effective no matter the speed.  Szeth was trying to overcome the friction between the stone surfaces.

What they were aiming for or not the end ressult is an increase in acceleration.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of these instances are using heavy objects and momentum to do what they need.  I agree a nice dense piece of stone would move at a fair clip.  There is a point where the air resistance is too much.

There is no point at which air resistance would prevent an increase in gravity from increasing speed.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is the entire point of the Ashby papers.  Momentum gives you more pass throughs on larger targets than kinetic energy alone.  The lighter projectile is going to be more prone to the air resistance (I guess this is more a density thing than weight alone) and it is going to slow down drastically faster once it meets other resistance... like hitting a person.  

You are wrong. This is the equation for drag force:

Spoiler

It has nothing to do with object's mass or density, but ONLY its speed and cross sectional area. Smaller objects have smaller cross sections, therefore drag force is also smaller.

Moreover, the equation for kinetic energy E=1/2 mv^2 means that the most important factor is speed of the object, not its mass. That's what matters during collision - kinetic energy, not momentum.

Edited January 20, 2023 by alder24

[cometaryorbit]

Momentum matters for impact depth. The projectile has to physically push flesh (or whatever the target is made of) out of the way to make a hole. Conservation of momentum means that even with incredible kinetic energy a projectile can only make so deep a hole. Density matters for this, which is why bullets tend to be made of dense metals.

However, this pretty much rules out copper coins as effective weapons (unless they hit side-on) using real physics. This makes comparative debates tricky because Mistborn get an extra advantage that their powers shouldn't otherwise give them.

Their cross section area is worse than even balls, much less modern bullets, and copper is much less dense than lead. I don't think a coin could rapidly kill a normal human unless it hit a *very specific* spot - like crushing the windpipe - short of truly extreme speeds (hypersonic+, where kinetic energy is so high it causes explosions, which work differently).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth

Edited January 20, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You are wrong. This is the equation for drag force:

  Hide contents

It has nothing to do with object's mass or density, but ONLY its speed and cross sectional area. Smaller objects have smaller cross sections, therefore drag force is also smaller.

Moreover, the equation for kinetic energy E=1/2 mv^2 means that the most important factor is speed of the object, not its mass. That's what matters during collision - kinetic energy, not momentum.

I accept this.  Ashby is speaking specifically about archery and achieving full pass throughs... lighter arrows with the same broadheads traveling slightly faster get less passthroughs than heavier arrows going slower.  You can call it what you want and math it how you want but the entire viability of trad bow hunting and dangerous game bow hunting is built on big heavy sharp arrows going slightly slower than lighter sharp arrows going faster.  Speed holds more weight in calculations for KE but mass holds more weight in momentum calculations.  The results speak for themselves when you build your arrows right.  That isnt to say fast light arrows dont kill a bunch of animals but your fast light arrow isn't going to blow through the scapula of that big game the way a heavier and slower arrow will.  Mostly because the speed and size in hunting don't change together at the same pace.  I also totally get that we aren't talking about sharp pointy objects here either.  A coin slapping something flatside is going to penetrate less than the same coin going at the same speed hitting that thing on the skinny side.  Rocks have no flat or skinny side.  If you are going to drop a rock that weighs 1 oz with 30 lashings a rock dropped at 2oz would do more with slightly less lashings.  

Falling is still just falling.  A rock in my hand doesn't really care about the gravity that is effecting it as I am not letting it fall.  But if I am holding onto an arrow point and someone releases the string my hand is going to care.  That is the difference between gravitation and steel/iron.  You would have to dump so many lashing into a rock to make it be effective in shorter ranges that I dont think it would be much worth it.

I won't try to argue the math because I am obviously not a physicist.  I just see what happens to the bodies after the physics have done their thing.  

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's less effective than just droping coins and jumping.

I disagree if the object is to get away from the radiant.  Dropping coins and fleeing while the radiant is flying is futile.  You are arcing every jump and not being efficient in your retreat.  Steel is a straight line.  When a radiant is carrying a shield to block your coins then you have an anchor that is attached to the advancing radiant.  You push against that and the radiant never touches you as you are using all of their speed as well in a nice straight line.  Like 2 magnets repelling eachother they wont ever hit you so long as their strategy is to use a shield to reverse lash and catch the coins.  

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They can use full lashings with their feet, so I don't know why not. And why does the Mistborn get coins if they can't get rocks?

I guess my point of rocks vs coins goes back to the fight being placed in an open field where the mistborn specifically was given coins and then told that there were no other sources of metal around.  I don't much care if the radiant bends down and picks up rocks but there is a lot more evidence that a mistborn in era 2 times would be using firearms than there is of a radiant carrying rocks on their person for the sole purpose of having projectiles.  Being true to the thread the mistborn has a coin pouch and the radiant has their spren as weapons.

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Momentum matters for impact depth. The projectile has to physically push flesh (or whatever the target is made of) out of the way to make a hole. Conservation of momentum means that even with incredible kinetic energy a projectile can only make so deep a hole. Density matters for this, which is why bullets tend to be made of dense metals.

However, this pretty much rules out copper coins as effective weapons (unless they hit side-on) using real physics. This makes comparative debates tricky because Mistborn get an extra advantage that their powers shouldn't otherwise give them.

Their cross section area is worse than even balls, much less modern bullets, and copper is much less dense than lead. I don't think a coin could rapidly kill a normal human unless it hit a *very specific* spot - like crushing the windpipe - short of truly extreme speeds (hypersonic+, where kinetic energy is so high it causes explosions, which work differently).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth

I actually agree with this pretty much 100%.  That is my reasoning for saying the mistborn would be far better off with a bag full of dense ball bearings.  Some 50 cal lead shot would be far superior weapon to a penny... I would say a 50 cal lead shot would be far superior to an equally heavy stone of any shape... as that density is going to make a huge difference when moving through things.  

Comparing shotgun shot differences illustrates the whole thing perfectly.  Dont take number 8 bird shot to kill a grizzly.  Take that slug or some 00 buck for it.  Heck... skip the 00 and just hit it with the slug.  

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Speed holds more weight in calculations for KE but mass holds more weight in momentum calculations. 

No? Mass holds equal value in momentum. p=mv. But on impact there are a lot of more factors than mass or speed to consider.

34 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You can call it what you want and math it how you want but the entire viability of trad bow hunting and dangerous game bow hunting is built on big heavy sharp arrows going slightly slower than lighter sharp arrows going faster.  Speed holds more weight in calculations for KE but mass holds more weight in momentum calculations.  The results speak for themselves when you build your arrows right.  That isnt to say fast light arrows dont kill a bunch of animals but your fast light arrow isn't going to blow through the scapula of that big game the way a heavier and slower arrow will.  Mostly because the speed and size in hunting don't change together at the same pace.

I'm not an expert on arrows, but I think lighter arrows have smaller cross sections (thinner wood, different arrowhead), and on impact they tend to bend more, therefore absorb energy of the impact. They break more easily than heavier arrows, so more kinetic energy is lost and not delivered to the target. That's most likely why there is such discrepancy on impact. Also when they are airborne, lighter arrows are bending more, so again, they’re losing energy. But I admitt, I don't know much about this topic.

34 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A coin slapping something flatside is going to penetrate less than the same coin going at the same speed hitting that thing on the skinny side.  Rocks have no flat or skinny side. 

It doesn't have to penetrate, with sufficient force it will break a bone.

I think rocks on shorter distances can be surprisingly deadly as with 30 lashings you're getting close to 300m/s2 of acceleration, so you can get crazy speeds with that within just fractions of a second of fall.

 

Quote

According to Newton's approximation, a full metal projectile made of uranium will pierce through roughly 2.5 times its own length of steel armor.

Jeez, I didn't know that. That's scary. Thanks @cometaryorbit Now I know why they're making uranium tipped bullets.

 

I'm not taking any side here, not today, I don't have a brain for it now. Tbf I skipped 12 pages, so... Maybe one day I will join. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Falling is still just falling.  A rock in my hand doesn't really care about the gravity that is effecting it as I am not letting it fall.  But if I am holding onto an arrow point and someone releases the string my hand is going to care.

You're hand would care a whole lot more about the rock if we dropped that rock from 30 feet up at five times the gravity.

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Steel is a straight line.  When a radiant is carrying a shield to block your coins then you have an anchor that is attached to the advancing radiant.  You push against that and the radiant never touches you as you are using all of their speed as well in a nice straight line.  Like 2 magnets repelling eachother they wont ever hit you so long as their strategy is to use a shield to reverse lash and catch the coins.  

I've gone over this three times now. You block the coins then dismiss the reverse lashing. The coins then fall away and you can chase down the Mistborn. You don't need the shield in the air, as you can just move to the side by sculpting the air.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You're hand would care a whole lot more about the rock if we dropped that rock from 30 feet up at five times the gravity.

I've gone over this three times now. You block the coins then dismiss the reverse lashing. The coins then fall away and you can chase down the Mistborn. You don't need the shield in the air, as you can just move to the side by sculpting the air.

Honestly we are both talking in circles.  You think that you can reverse lash the coin to the shield and then cut the lashing all before the mistborn can use steel to continue jamming that coin onto the shield for a push.  I don't even care if you let down the lashing once the coin touches the shield the mistborn has the option to shove off of it and recreate the distance that the windrunner is trying to close.   If they needed to they could continue pushing on that same coin and it is going to stay attached to the shield until it slides off.  Just like if I take my thumb and push it into a wall.  That coin will stay there until I remove my thumb regardless of whether there is a lashing holding it there for me.  It would be less efficient to have to hold the coin there via steel but it doesn't change the fact that the shield becomes an anchor point for the mistborn to hold that gap so long as the radiant keeps the shield up to block other incoming coins.  

Not that the argument over wooden shields being viable applies to a fight in a field between a radiant and his shardblade vs a mistborn with coin pouch as was outlined.  

If we get to choose loadouts based on what is available the era 1 mistborn gets atium and the era 2 mistborn gets guns and medallions and such.   The radiant has access to fabrials and we fall down this wild spiraling hellscape of adding on more and more until you reach radiant with access to all surges and unbound bondsmith with 3 perpendicularities flanking his every move vs fullborn sucking in the mists and chilling with a well of Ascension juice box flinging aluminum spikes as weapons while running mach 10.  

Haha.  I genuinely enjoy these topics but I am too distracted by life to draw accurate pictures with my words.  I'm not saying the reverse lashing has to hold the coin there.  I'm just saying once the lashing pulls the coin off course to the radiant the mistborn can still push against it into the shield to keep space.   

So long as the radiant holds a flat piece of anything forward and a piece of metal is touching it it is an anchor that the mistborn can use to keep the gap with.  Once the coin falls you are correct it isn't an anchor anymore.  That coin doesn't disappear.  It is still in play as are any other coins the mistborn has access to.  And then we play ring around the rosey some more.  Windrunner tries to close the gap.  Mistborn uses ranged attacks.  Windrunner either face tanks them or uses a shield that they didn't have as part of their loadout (or uses their spren to block but once its dropped they still have a coin being pressed against them).  

This isn't to say there aren't angles and ricochets that can change that.  But the argument put forth was that all coins are pretty well trivial as they will always be reverse lashed to the radiant.  My counter was that it becomes a stalemate to which you said the radiant would just return all of his breath to the spheres.  That led me to say that if the radiant gives up and leaves the mistborn can play the assassination game while radiant is not holding light.  To which you answered that the fight wasn't going to be over like that.  

How on earth we got here I don't know.  I'm not particularly enjoying the conversation anymore as there is really no end.  And arguing literally anything and the answer being "because stormlight op" is exhausting.  We can leave it as the mistborn keeps distance infinitely but the windrunner never runs out of stormlight because the investiture usage is so low for simple lashings and once the steel is empty the windrunner wins by default because magic sword and infinite healing.  

This is simply because we don't have numbers.  We have WoB that explains every fight is written with the winner being who needs to be and then the calculations of how much investiture that character needed to do it all gets tossed in by an assistant and it becomes so.  The same thing happens with these threads unfortunately.  And I realize I am as guilty as any.  Of course I want to envision a world where the mistborn stands a chance.  I have consistently tipped my ranking in favor of the windrunner.  Most of my participation in the thread is simply to offer different tactics that could or could not work to talk them through.  

Consistently the response is stormlight and shardblade win.  Not much talking around the new scenario just brute strength of the power difference between investiture levels.  But don't talk about atium because its banned in this scenario.  

Until we have the numbers and see it all we have is the tricks and usage of magic systems we see.  If stormlight passively defeats the entire toolkit of more versatile systems then every discussion can only ever come down to that.  Its sort of a shame really.  

[Letryx13]

As I've said before, I consider Third Ideal Radiants on average (excluding BondSmiths) to be about equal with MistBorn that don't have Atium.  Shardblades are possibly the most effective fight finisher we've seen in the Cosmere, and StormLight grants stamina and healing second only to compounding. True, MistBorn have pewter for stamina, which is formidable, but it helps them ignore damage instead of repair it, which has a much bigger drawback when it's used up than StormLight does. Radiant abilities seem more powerful while MistBorn are more versatile; both are valid forms of strength. 

That said, WindRunner maneuverability matches or even surpasses that of a MistBorn, taking away a MistBorn's biggest advantage. So I'd give this very slightly in the WindRunner's favor, in a 55% to 45% kind of way.  Much like Sanderson says, I think the environment of the fight determines the outcome, more than anything else; how much metal is around and whether there is room for a WindRunner to fly, and so on.  But on average, I'd give it to the WindRunner.

[Immortal Platypus]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:59 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Honestly we are both talking in circles.  You think that you can reverse lash the coin to the shield and then cut the lashing all before the mistborn can use steel to continue jamming that coin onto the shield for a push.  I don't even care if you let down the lashing once the coin touches the shield the mistborn has the option to shove off of it and recreate the distance that the windrunner is trying to close.   If they needed to they could continue pushing on that same coin and it is going to stay attached to the shield until it slides off.  Just like if I take my thumb and push it into a wall.  That coin will stay there until I remove my thumb regardless of whether there is a lashing holding it there for me.  It would be less efficient to have to hold the coin there via steel but it doesn't change the fact that the shield becomes an anchor point for the mistborn to hold that gap so long as the radiant keeps the shield up to block other incoming coins.  

Not that the argument over wooden shields being viable applies to a fight in a field between a radiant and his shardblade vs a mistborn with coin pouch as was outlined.  

If we get to choose loadouts based on what is available the era 1 mistborn gets atium and the era 2 mistborn gets guns and medallions and such.   The radiant has access to fabrials and we fall down this wild spiraling hellscape of adding on more and more until you reach radiant with access to all surges and unbound bondsmith with 3 perpendicularities flanking his every move vs fullborn sucking in the mists and chilling with a well of Ascension juice box flinging aluminum spikes as weapons while running mach 10.  

Haha.  I genuinely enjoy these topics but I am too distracted by life to draw accurate pictures with my words.  I'm not saying the reverse lashing has to hold the coin there.  I'm just saying once the lashing pulls the coin off course to the radiant the mistborn can still push against it into the shield to keep space.   

So long as the radiant holds a flat piece of anything forward and a piece of metal is touching it it is an anchor that the mistborn can use to keep the gap with.  Once the coin falls you are correct it isn't an anchor anymore.  That coin doesn't disappear.  It is still in play as are any other coins the mistborn has access to.  And then we play ring around the rosey some more.  Windrunner tries to close the gap.  Mistborn uses ranged attacks.  Windrunner either face tanks them or uses a shield that they didn't have as part of their loadout (or uses their spren to block but once its dropped they still have a coin being pressed against them).  

This isn't to say there aren't angles and ricochets that can change that.  But the argument put forth was that all coins are pretty well trivial as they will always be reverse lashed to the radiant.  My counter was that it becomes a stalemate to which you said the radiant would just return all of his breath to the spheres.  That led me to say that if the radiant gives up and leaves the mistborn can play the assassination game while radiant is not holding light.  To which you answered that the fight wasn't going to be over like that.  

How on earth we got here I don't know.  I'm not particularly enjoying the conversation anymore as there is really no end.  And arguing literally anything and the answer being "because stormlight op" is exhausting.  We can leave it as the mistborn keeps distance infinitely but the windrunner never runs out of stormlight because the investiture usage is so low for simple lashings and once the steel is empty the windrunner wins by default because magic sword and infinite healing.  

This is simply because we don't have numbers.  We have WoB that explains every fight is written with the winner being who needs to be and then the calculations of how much investiture that character needed to do it all gets tossed in by an assistant and it becomes so.  The same thing happens with these threads unfortunately.  And I realize I am as guilty as any.  Of course I want to envision a world where the mistborn stands a chance.  I have consistently tipped my ranking in favor of the windrunner.  Most of my participation in the thread is simply to offer different tactics that could or could not work to talk them through.  

Consistently the response is stormlight and shardblade win.  Not much talking around the new scenario just brute strength of the power difference between investiture levels.  But don't talk about atium because its banned in this scenario.  

Until we have the numbers and see it all we have is the tricks and usage of magic systems we see.  If stormlight passively defeats the entire toolkit of more versatile systems then every discussion can only ever come down to that.  Its sort of a shame really.  

I'm sorry for any role I played in making you feel the whole "stormlight OP" thing. I feel that all the time. I try to use other things but a lot of people do just stay like that. I hope you keep going with these things, but if you aren't having fun, don't do it.

[Frustration]

New plan!

Given this WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Windrunner in Shardplate travel to other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, theoretically possible. Take a long time.

Questioner

Yes, it would. 'Cause he wouldn't need to breathe, if he's got enough Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, well, I mean, they can control pressure, so. You'd need oxygen scrubbers, but they can also, so... you can create a ball of air around yourself with their power anyway, so--

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8212

 

 

 

 

Windrunners can affect air pressure.

So they simply drop the air pressure around the Mistborn until they pass out, and then stab them.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Windrunners can affect air pressure.

So they simply drop the air pressure around the Mistborn until they pass out, and then stab them.

That's a Windrunner in a Shardplate, so at least 4th Ideal. The only moment we saw 3rd Ideal Windrunner doing something with pressure was Kaladin trying to stop the Highstorm in OB. And that was only around himself, not around someone else. Mistborn would just move away, and be ok. So while it's possible I don't know if 3rd Ideal Windrunner could do it, 4th for sure, 3rd hard maybe. 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a Windrunner in a Shardplate, so at least 4th Ideal. The only moment we saw 3rd Ideal Windrunner doing something with pressure was Kaladin trying to stop the Highstorm in OB. And that was only around himself, not around someone else. Mistborn would just move away, and be ok. So while it's possible I don't know if 3rd Ideal Windrunner could do it, 4th for sure, 3rd hard maybe. 

Even if it only works around themselves it's still useful as a defensive tool.

Even just the rapid depressurization could be deadly, as the bends often causes paralysis, and impaired cognitive function.

[therunner]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a Windrunner in a Shardplate, so at least 4th Ideal. The only moment we saw 3rd Ideal Windrunner doing something with pressure was Kaladin trying to stop the Highstorm in OB. And that was only around himself, not around someone else. Mistborn would just move away, and be ok. So while it's possible I don't know if 3rd Ideal Windrunner could do it, 4th for sure, 3rd hard maybe. 

I would say that probably any sufficiently trained Windrunner could do that. They (and most orders) get access to all surges immediately, only Dustbringers and Skybreakers are confirmed to get access to Division only at higher Oaths.

We have seen Windrunners use Adhesion early on (even prior to swearing 1st Oath), and this is 'just' more advanced application of Adhesion.
Even in OB Kaladin created a windbreak large enough for several people to be in and move, so it was not just immediately around him.

But it is for sure a more speculative application.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

I would say that probably any sufficiently trained Windrunner could do that. They (and most orders) get access to all surges immediately, only Dustbringers and Skybreakers are confirmed to get access to Division only at higher Oaths.

We have seen Windrunners use Adhesion early on (even prior to swearing 1st Oath), and this is 'just' more advanced application of Adhesion.
Even in OB Kaladin created a windbreak large enough for several people to be in and move, so it was not just immediately around him.

But it is for sure a more speculative application.

With sufficient training they might be able to do it. But Kaladin in OB did this with the assistance of Windsprens, creating a wall of some sort that stopped Highstorm. Windspren just extended Kaladin's reach, but I don't know if Windrunner would be able to do that on some target away from him. Using the assistance of Windsprens is more intuitive for 4th Ideal Windrunner than 3rd.

[therunner]

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

With sufficient training they might be able to do it. But Kaladin in OB did this with the assistance of Windsprens, creating a wall of some sort that stopped Highstorm. Windspren just extended Kaladin's reach, but I don't know if Windrunner would be able to do that on some target away from him. Using the assistance of Windsprens is more intuitive for 4th Ideal Windrunner than 3rd.

Good and fair point, guess we will see more in future

 

[Frustration]

When he was going ahead of the Highstorm Kal was doing around 370 mph

Spoiler

Karen Ahlstrom (paraphrased)

1. Just as highstorms come less frequently around the Weeping, they are more frequent around Midpeace.

2. Following the advent of the Everstorm, the normal highstorm calculations/schedule was found to be thrown off by about four (Rosharan) months.

3. Highstorms move at about 370 miles per hour. The Everstorm moves at about 120 miles per hour. Those are variable of course, and shouldn't be taken as official, definitive numbers.

4. For approximate Everstorm timing calculations we used a cycle of 9.1 (Rosharan) days.

5. Roshar's circumference is about 22110 miles. Again, this shouldn't be taken as an official, definitive number.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e10231

 

 

[Monk of Dakhor]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:42 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Healing. The Windrunner will be taking coin wounds, and I don't think your normal 3rd ideal can just ignore those ... nearly 4th ideal but not quite there like RoW Kaladin, maybe - but the level of healing we see from Shallan's crossbow bolt in OB, coins will be a major problem, they can't just heal over and over.

I apologize if somebody has already addressed this, but I believe that the only reason that Shallan had that reaction to the crossbow bolt, is because of it being in her brain, the neural pathways regrew, but not all of them were able to, because of the bolt still being there, which than kept her from returning to the normal level that her brain was at

[cometaryorbit]

I did list that as a possible reason for the Kaladin/Shallan healing difference- I think it's definitely a factor. However, I do think that Kaladin in RoW being near 4th ideal for some purposes (resisting suppressor etc) may also be relevant.