Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, one has godmetal equipment / being as the centerpoint of their abilities, and the other only has abilities because someone used godmetal in the past so, we have only two people fighting?

Seriously though, Shardblades are inherent part of 3rd Ideal Windrunner power-set, taking them away is like saying Mistborn minus pushes/pulls.

Is the ability to use Atium not an inherent part of the mistborns kit?  It is exactly the same as saying no pushing and pulling. 

This is part of the argument that Roshar is more invested than Scadrial though.  Roshar is so invested that god metal can instantly appear in the radiants hand and the mistborn lives on a world where either the people destroyed the god that metal belonged to or it was monopolized as a part of the economy.  

The mistborn piece of the original discussion was picked apart and put back together in a way that was impossible to start.  To say a mistborn in Era 2 (which there were none) or to say a mistborn with access to all metals (never happened either) is asking to put a fighter in a ring that has never existed vs one who does.  Not a huge difference between a world in Era 2 with a mistborn in it (because it doesn't exist) and a world with a radiant of the 3rd ideal with no spren blade.  

The closest thing we have of living entities who could fight at the same time with eachother would be Marsh vs a 4th ideal radiant.  Marsh has access to compounded gold and steel as well as a host of others.  He has access to atium still and stands a good 7 foot tall as well.  

I feel like we have all already agreed that atium vs 3rd ideal is in the mistborns pocket the majority of the time.  A shardblade against no atium goes to the shardblade.  I wanted to break down the differences between the magic and abilities of the 3rd ideal surgebinder minus their win con vs a standard mistborn minus their win con.  

Because no matter how many of these threads exist there is always a bias in it.  And truly both are so close that it is one circumstance or piece of equipment separating them.  

Mistborn no atium >1st and 2nd ideal. 

3rd ideal with blade > mistborn no atium.  

3rd ideal with blade >= mistborn no atium but firearms (Era 2) 

Mistborn with atium > 3rd ideal with blade

4th ideal with blade and plate > mistborn with atium or firearms

4th ideal with blade and plate >= mistborn with guns and atium 

What is currently on scadrial and able to fight is likely > what is currently on Roshar and able to fight (because compounded steel is truly disgusting and makes me feel dirty when I think of comparing anything to it.)  

Strategy of murdering a person only really works for the mistborn because it would certainly be a broken oath for a windrunner.  

 

I have been pretty consistent and have even had my mind changed on these breakpoints but this is what most of these discussions come down to is weighing the sides of each. I really tried to keep it somewhat relevant by comparing stormlight to pewter and use some critical thinking to work around the shardblade without the atium because atium use is usually banned quickly in these discussions as it is the swinging factor in mistborn vs X.  The god metals are op is not a shock. 

My point is that it is normal to ban out atium but heresy to discuss a radiant without their shards.  

I actually think the radiant has a decent amount of tools minus the blade to keep it pretty close.  If you removed the blade > all and atium > all comments it could be a good discussion about what else is happening in the systems.  

I do think pewter gives the larger advantage compared to stormlight in everything but healing.  I also think the windrunner in the open is a far better flier.  I think the windrunner has a lot more options for improvised weapons but I think the mistborns improvised weapons are stronger.

I don't think stormlight will protect the windrunner from mental allomancy and I don't think the windrunner has a good way to deal with leeching.   

I do believe the mistborn has powerful but limited ability to wipe away external and internal sources of investiture but it does require drinking more metals.  

I do believe the mistborns leeching ability would make a difference in the fight and I don't think that stormlight (not progression) can heal a persons head being popped like a zit.  

None of this kind of discussion can really thrive when its answered by a mystical blade that is routinely worked around in books but can zigzag around every move the mistborn makes (unless they have atium but thats op and banned).  

I believe that when Scadrial meets Roshar it is in no way going to be one sided.  The living blades and plate will have work arounds as will the radiants have ways to deal with ranged weaponry and medallion tech running around like crazy.  If it were so simply one sided it would make for a dreadfully boring story which really goes back to the real OP equipment

....

Who did Brandon blanket with plot armor.  

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is the ability to use Atium not an inherent part of the mistborns kit?  It is exactly the same as saying no pushing and pulling. 

This is part of the argument that Roshar is more invested than Scadrial though.  Roshar is so invested that god metal can instantly appear in the radiants hand and the mistborn lives on a world where either the people destroyed the god that metal belonged to or it was monopolized as a part of the economy.  

The mistborn piece of the original discussion was picked apart and put back together in a way that was impossible to start.  To say a mistborn in Era 2 (which there were none) or to say a mistborn with access to all metals (never happened either) is asking to put a fighter in a ring that has never existed vs one who does.  Not a huge difference between a world in Era 2 with a mistborn in it (because it doesn't exist) and a world with a radiant of the 3rd ideal with no spren blade.  

The closest thing we have of living entities who could fight at the same time with eachother would be Marsh vs a 4th ideal radiant.  Marsh has access to compounded gold and steel as well as a host of others.  He has access to atium still and stands a good 7 foot tall as well.  

I feel like we have all already agreed that atium vs 3rd ideal is in the mistborns pocket the majority of the time.  A shardblade against no atium goes to the shardblade.  I wanted to break down the differences between the magic and abilities of the 3rd ideal surgebinder minus their win con vs a standard mistborn minus their win con.  

Because no matter how many of these threads exist there is always a bias in it.  And truly both are so close that it is one circumstance or piece of equipment separating them.  

Mistborn no atium >1st and 2nd ideal. 

3rd ideal with blade > mistborn no atium.  

3rd ideal with blade >= mistborn no atium but firearms (Era 2) 

Mistborn with atium > 3rd ideal with blade

4th ideal with blade and plate > mistborn with atium or firearms

4th ideal with blade and plate >= mistborn with guns and atium 

What is currently on scadrial and able to fight is likely > what is currently on Roshar and able to fight (because compounded steel is truly disgusting and makes me feel dirty when I think of comparing anything to it.)  

Strategy of murdering a person only really works for the mistborn because it would certainly be a broken oath for a windrunner.  

 

I have been pretty consistent and have even had my mind changed on these breakpoints but this is what most of these discussions come down to is weighing the sides of each. I really tried to keep it somewhat relevant by comparing stormlight to pewter and use some critical thinking to work around the shardblade without the atium because atium use is usually banned quickly in these discussions as it is the swinging factor in mistborn vs X.  The god metals are op is not a shock. 

My point is that it is normal to ban out atium but heresy to discuss a radiant without their shards.  

I actually think the radiant has a decent amount of tools minus the blade to keep it pretty close.  If you removed the blade > all and atium > all comments it could be a good discussion about what else is happening in the systems.  

I do think pewter gives the larger advantage compared to stormlight in everything but healing.  I also think the windrunner in the open is a far better flier.  I think the windrunner has a lot more options for improvised weapons but I think the mistborns improvised weapons are stronger.

I don't think stormlight will protect the windrunner from mental allomancy and I don't think the windrunner has a good way to deal with leeching.   

I do believe the mistborn has powerful but limited ability to wipe away external and internal sources of investiture but it does require drinking more metals.  

I do believe the mistborns leeching ability would make a difference in the fight and I don't think that stormlight (not progression) can heal a persons head being popped like a zit.  

None of this kind of discussion can really thrive when its answered by a mystical blade that is routinely worked around in books but can zigzag around every move the mistborn makes (unless they have atium but thats op and banned).  

I believe that when Scadrial meets Roshar it is in no way going to be one sided.  The living blades and plate will have work arounds as will the radiants have ways to deal with ranged weaponry and medallion tech running around like crazy.  If it were so simply one sided it would make for a dreadfully boring story which really goes back to the real OP equipment

....

Who did Brandon blanket with plot armor.  

The ability to use atium is part of a mistborn's toolkit, but atium itself is not, and only a select few mistborn even had access to it. However ANY 3rd oath radiant has a shardblade.

Even era 1 mistborn only had enough for maybe a minute of burning and have no way to kill radiants whos stormlight will last longer than the atium will.

And when did Marsh become 7 feet tall?

Honestly I think chromium is a better tool for a mistborn than atium.

[therunner]

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is the ability to use Atium not an inherent part of the mistborns kit?  It is exactly the same as saying no pushing and pulling. 

This is part of the argument that Roshar is more invested than Scadrial though.  Roshar is so invested that god metal can instantly appear in the radiants hand and the mistborn lives on a world where either the people destroyed the god that metal belonged to or it was monopolized as a part of the economy.  

The mistborn piece of the original discussion was picked apart and put back together in a way that was impossible to start.  To say a mistborn in Era 2 (which there were none) or to say a mistborn with access to all metals (never happened either) is asking to put a fighter in a ring that has never existed vs one who does.  Not a huge difference between a world in Era 2 with a mistborn in it (because it doesn't exist) and a world with a radiant of the 3rd ideal with no spren blade. 
...

My point is that it is normal to ban out atium but heresy to discuss a radiant without their shards.  

To elaborate on what @Ookla the Frustrated. said, Shardblades are inherent part of Radiant magic system, you cannot be 3rd Oath Radiant and not have Shardblade.

Access to metals for Mistborn is more like access to Stormlight, with the distinction that for each ability Mistborn requires specific metals, and some (like Atium) are exceedingly rare to non-existent. And even when Atium existed, it was produced in quantities which were roughly ~hours of burning Atium for single person in a year (if you managed to collect all of it, which would be time-consuming and painful), so Atium is by far the most limited resource, and not all Mistborn even had it available, and those that did typically used it only against other Mistborn (because those had it too) and because they had enough for a minute at most.

All of these discussion are kind-of impossible, but the discussion is typically always framed as Mistborn + all metals (and minus Atium) vs 3rd oath Radiant. And in principle Spook could have been such Mistborn, though Radiant would not have been overlapping exactly in time frame

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The closest thing we have of living entities who could fight at the same time with eachother would be Marsh vs a 4th ideal radiant.  Marsh has access to compounded gold and steel as well as a host of others.  He has access to atium still and stands a good 7 foot tall as well. 

Well Marsh is only over 6 feet tall, not that makes much difference considering his abilities. While he has atium, he cannot really afford to use it in combat, because he needs it to stay alive, and has very limited supply.

But he has F-steel, and if he has enough stores, that would do a lot, the only way Radiant could defend against that is stay high in the air where F-steel won't help Marsh. But if they both start on the ground, F-steel takes the day.
 

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like we have all already agreed that atium vs 3rd ideal is in the mistborns pocket the majority of the time.  A shardblade against no atium goes to the shardblade.  I wanted to break down the differences between the magic and abilities of the 3rd ideal surgebinder minus their win con vs a standard mistborn minus their win con. 

I'd say that Shardblade is not necessary win con for 3rd Oath Windrunner, just the best option. If for whatever reason they would not use or have blade, but had e.g. regular spear and some shield, their tactics should shift to using their superior mobility and ranged options to wear down the Mistborn first, then use reverse lashing to partially immobilize them/limit their movement and go for the kill.

More time-consuming but still doable I think, maybe ~70% ish amount of time, terrain pending?

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I do think pewter gives the larger advantage compared to stormlight in everything but healing.  I also think the windrunner in the open is a far better flier.  I think the windrunner has a lot more options for improvised weapons but I think the mistborns improvised weapons are stronger.

I don't think stormlight will protect the windrunner from mental allomancy and I don't think the windrunner has a good way to deal with leeching.   

I do believe the mistborn has powerful but limited ability to wipe away external and internal sources of investiture but it does require drinking more metals.  

I do believe the mistborns leeching ability would make a difference in the fight and I don't think that stormlight (not progression) can heal a persons head being popped like a zit. 

I think Windrunner is better flier in every terrain, as long as they have experience with it, they simply have far superior method of flight, as they can do everything Mistborn can and more.

Edit: On pewter, I think it gives definitely better strength, a bit better proprioception and speed, but on agility and reflexes they are about on par, or close enough to not make much difference. Healing of course is far better in Stormlight.

I think Stormlight will protect Windrunner to some extent against soothing/rioting, but not completely and not against duraluminum fueled attacks. We know that it is more difficult to affect more heavily Invested beings, and Radiants are comparatively heavily Invested, so it stands to reason it would limit the allomancy, but not completely negate it.

Chromium and leeching are definitely among the best tools against Radiant, but require to get close, which is a risky proposition. And I don't think drinking more metals is an issue, they could just have vials carrying all relevant metals together (i.e. steel/iron, chromium, pewter, brass, zinc, electrum, bendalloy).

I think given enough Stormlight head popped could be healed, as it works the same way F-Gold does and that can do it given enough Investiture. Whether the Radiant has enough Stormlight to do it is another question, but as the regrowth would take time, during which Mistborn can keep attacking I think we can treat popped head like a win for Mistborn.

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

None of this kind of discussion can really thrive when its answered by a mystical blade that is routinely worked around in books but can zigzag around every move the mistborn makes (unless they have atium but thats op and banned). 

I would not say Shardblades are 'routinely' worked around in the books. The few people who do manage to get around them are either

• Invested and supernaturally skilled (Kaladin)
• Arguably the deadliest melee warrior on planet outside of Immortals (Dalinar)
• best Duelist with deadblades (Adolin)
• or Shardbearers who trained most of their lives to get used to Shardblades, and they are the best warriors in their armies

So, around 1 in 100 000 can get around the blade, and most of them only if they have blade of their own. If only one side has blade, then it is effectively only Dalinar (who only stopped one attack) and Kaladin.
And that is getting around deadblade which cannot shapeshift in the middle of the combat, cannot be thrown and re-summoned immediately, cannot use skipping and other techniques.

I mean, even on Mistborn side Atium was worked around by someone who did not have any, and we don't use that as an example. And there no one could even train against atium to try and see what could be done, unlike millennia of known and developed techniques for Shardblades, which is knowledge the aforementioned people use, and Mistborn would not have.

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe that when Scadrial meets Roshar it is in no way going to be one sided.  The living blades and plate will have work arounds as will the radiants have ways to deal with ranged weaponry and medallion tech running around like crazy.  If it were so simply one sided it would make for a dreadfully boring story which really goes back to the real OP equipment

Oh, there have been long threads dedicated to that discussion There is a new thread on that, but it is in TLM section.

Edited December 11, 2022 by therunner
spelling + point on pewter

[Tglassy]

I didn't read everything here but Imma chime in.  

There needs to be more restrictions. 

1.  Take an Average Mistborn, give him one vial of metals with all 16 metals in it and one nugget of Atium that'll last 30 seconds.  

2.  Take an Average 3rd Ideal Windrunner with one full breath of Stormlight.  

3.  Give both of them their average equipment.  That means a coin pouch and glass daggers for Mistborn, and a spear or whatever for the Radiant.  Honestly, the Radiant doesn't really have average equipment.  

4.  Put the two of them in a Super Smash Bros. Final Destination type of area.  A flat plane with literally nothing else.  No other metal objects to push on, no large rocks or whatever to lash.  Just ground and sky and the two of them.  They only have what they brought.

5.  Explain to each combatant the basic capabilities of the other.  Tell the Mistborn how Stormlight works and about the lashing, and explain the metals' basic functions to the Radiant.   

The idea is that each gets one basic unit of their ability, but cannot recover it once it's used.  So no extra vials of metal, and only a basic amount of each metal, and no extra spheres of stormlight.  Just as much as they can hold in a single breath.  

 

In this scenario, the Radiant's only chance is to get in close and end it early.  A single breath of Stormlight will go away in a few minutes.  Once that breath is gone, they still have their blade, but their healing and other powers are gone.  They're basically a normal person.  So the fight is only going to last as long as that breath of Stormlight.  

If I were the Radiant, I would lash myself towards the Mistborn and do everything in my power to hit him with my blade while my Stormlight lasted.  And MAYBE it works.  

But there's a problem.  3rd Ideal Radiants don't have increased physical abilities.  No super speed, or reflexes, or strength, or awareness.  They're basically a normal person who can fly.  They get a boost of Determination, but that's about it.  

A basic dose of Pewter will last about 10 minutes if memory serves, which is much longer than a single breath of Stormlight.  Flaring it will make it go quicker.  So lets say if the Mistborn flares Pewter, then the Pewter will be gone in a couple minutes.  About the same amount of time as the Stormlight.  And Pewter DOES increase speed, strength, reflexes, balance, and all of that.  

So for those few minutes, a flying guy with a wolverine healing factor is going up against a guy with super human abilities.  And that's just from one metal.  

Reverse Lashings will keep Steel pushes from working.  The Mistborn can't leap away, cause the Radiant can fly after him.   But he probably CAN dodge the blade.  Kaladin did that before he even said the first ideal, and he didn't even have Pewter.  It would be a hard fight, for sure, but I'd give decent Odds the Mistborn holds out.  

Now let's look at the other metals. 

A constant burning of Brass and Zinc to sow doubt and hesitation.  These'll last the whole fight on one dose, no question. 

Steel and Iron aren't useless.  Every coin the Mistborn is able to hit the Radiant with is some Healing, and thus less Stormlight for the Radiant to use.  Reverse lashings help, but that also uses Stormlight (thought not as much).  

Pewter and Tin keep the Mistborn ahead of the blade.  

Bronze and Copper tell the Mistborn how much Stormlight the Radiant has left, and maybe even protects the Mistborn against being personally Lashed.  

And that's just the original 8.  

Bendalloy provide lots of utility.  Cadmium is less useful, though the Radiant has to get in close to fight at all, he has no ranged abilities.  If the Mistborn can put up a Speed Bubble, slowing himself, the Radiant has to fly through it, and thus suffer disorientation, to get to him.  And it lets the Mistborn wait out the Radiant's Stormlight.  This might not be a great idea, but if all other metals are expended and you only need to wait a few seconds for the Stormlight to go out, it might be an option.  

Since the Radiant has to get in close, Nicrobsil is a huge advantage.  One touch, which the Mistborn SHOULD be able to do with Pewter, Bendalloy and Atium, should wipe out all the Stormlight.  It would only take five seconds of burning Atiium to put a hand on the Radiant and end the fight right there. 

Once the Radiant is out of Stormlight, assuming the Mistborn is alive, the game is over.  A few coins and the Radiant dies, if he still has Steal.  Even if he's used his coins, he can just reuse them.  If he doesn't have Steal or Iron left, which is a possibillity, he should still have Pewter.  If he doesn't have Pewter either, he'd only needa bout five seconds worth of Atium to finish it.  If he has no Steal, Atium or Pewter left, then maybe he's got a problem.  Thing is, I don't see that happening.  This is how I see it happening.  

In the opening seconds, the Radiant charges, knowing he has to end it quickly.  The Mistborn burns Atium and Pewter, effortlessly dodges the attacks, and grabs the Radiant, using a Nicroburst to wipe out his Stormlight (and maybe unsummon the blade.).  A quick blade in the back and the game is over.  The whole fight would take about ten seconds.  

If the Radiant tries to keep his distance, maybe hoping the Mistborn runs out of metals, that isn't going to happen.  The Radiant would have to put the Stormlight back in the gemstone to conserve it, or risk running out.  But if he does that, the Mistborn just shoots him with coins.  If the Radiant tries flying around to keep distance, he loses, cause he's just running out of time while the Mistborn waits.  

Add in Plate and maybe things go different, depending on if Nicrosil would unsummon the Plate.  But give Nicrosil, Pewter and Atium to a Mistborn and they'd take on pretty much any Windrunner. And that's just three of their powers.  

Edited December 11, 2022 by Tglassy

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I didn't read everything here but Imma chime in.  

There needs to be more restrictions. 

1.  Take an Average Mistborn, give him one vial of metals with all 16 metals in it and one nugget of Atium that'll last 30 seconds.  

2.  Take an Average 3rd Ideal Windrunner with one full breath of Stormlight.  

That single bead of atium has way more investiture that that amount of stormlight. And why does the mistborn get an average amount of metals, but the radiant only gets a fraction of the stormlight they normally use?

[Immortal Platypus]

5 hours ago, Tglassy said:

But there's a problem.  3rd Ideal Radiants don't have increased physical abilities.  No super speed, or reflexes, or strength, or awareness.  They're basically a normal person who can fly.  They get a boost of Determination, but that's about it.  

yes they do. they have enhanced reflexes and awareness, and slightly enhanced speed and strength.

 

5 hours ago, Tglassy said:

1.  Take an Average Mistborn, give him one vial of metals with all 16 metals in it and one nugget of Atium that'll last 30 seconds.  

2.  Take an Average 3rd Ideal Windrunner with one full breath of Stormlight.  

3.  Give both of them their average equipment.  That means a coin pouch and glass daggers for Mistborn, and a spear or whatever for the Radiant.  Honestly, the Radiant doesn't really have average equipment.  

...

no extra spheres of stormlight.  Just as much as they can hold in a single breath

 

like frustration said, atium is far more invested than that breath. also, that gives the Mistborn way more supplies than the KR. And step three is bizarre and very biased for Mistborn (intentionally or not). extra spheres and extra vials are part of the average equipment and the spear is useless for the KR because they have a better option.

[Sky Breaker]

Mistborn in this situation only have a few advantages ( speed bubbles, leechers, depending on the time period atium, duralumin) but a Windrunner could counter most of these by using their shard blade and/or lashing random sharp objects toward the mistborn. But depending on the battlefield ( like if it is for example indoors) then I think the mistborn could use speed bubbles to get close and drain them

[Werewolff Studios]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:06 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is the ability to use Atium not an inherent part of the mistborns kit?  It is exactly the same as saying no pushing and pulling. 

This is part of the argument that Roshar is more invested than Scadrial though.  Roshar is so invested that god metal can instantly appear in the radiants hand and the mistborn lives on a world where either the people destroyed the god that metal belonged to or it was monopolized as a part of the economy.  

The mistborn piece of the original discussion was picked apart and put back together in a way that was impossible to start.  To say a mistborn in Era 2 (which there were none) or to say a mistborn with access to all metals (never happened either) is asking to put a fighter in a ring that has never existed vs one who does.  Not a huge difference between a world in Era 2 with a mistborn in it (because it doesn't exist) and a world with a radiant of the 3rd ideal with no spren blade.  

The closest thing we have of living entities who could fight at the same time with eachother would be Marsh vs a 4th ideal radiant.  Marsh has access to compounded gold and steel as well as a host of others.  He has access to atium still and stands a good 7 foot tall as well.  

I feel like we have all already agreed that atium vs 3rd ideal is in the mistborns pocket the majority of the time.  A shardblade against no atium goes to the shardblade.  I wanted to break down the differences between the magic and abilities of the 3rd ideal surgebinder minus their win con vs a standard mistborn minus their win con.  

Because no matter how many of these threads exist there is always a bias in it.  And truly both are so close that it is one circumstance or piece of equipment separating them.  

Mistborn no atium >1st and 2nd ideal. 

3rd ideal with blade > mistborn no atium.  

3rd ideal with blade >= mistborn no atium but firearms (Era 2) 

Mistborn with atium > 3rd ideal with blade

4th ideal with blade and plate > mistborn with atium or firearms

4th ideal with blade and plate >= mistborn with guns and atium 

What is currently on scadrial and able to fight is likely > what is currently on Roshar and able to fight (because compounded steel is truly disgusting and makes me feel dirty when I think of comparing anything to it.)  

Strategy of murdering a person only really works for the mistborn because it would certainly be a broken oath for a windrunner.  

 

I have been pretty consistent and have even had my mind changed on these breakpoints but this is what most of these discussions come down to is weighing the sides of each. I really tried to keep it somewhat relevant by comparing stormlight to pewter and use some critical thinking to work around the shardblade without the atium because atium use is usually banned quickly in these discussions as it is the swinging factor in mistborn vs X.  The god metals are op is not a shock. 

My point is that it is normal to ban out atium but heresy to discuss a radiant without their shards.  

I actually think the radiant has a decent amount of tools minus the blade to keep it pretty close.  If you removed the blade > all and atium > all comments it could be a good discussion about what else is happening in the systems.  

I do think pewter gives the larger advantage compared to stormlight in everything but healing.  I also think the windrunner in the open is a far better flier.  I think the windrunner has a lot more options for improvised weapons but I think the mistborns improvised weapons are stronger.

I don't think stormlight will protect the windrunner from mental allomancy and I don't think the windrunner has a good way to deal with leeching.   

I do believe the mistborn has powerful but limited ability to wipe away external and internal sources of investiture but it does require drinking more metals.  

I do believe the mistborns leeching ability would make a difference in the fight and I don't think that stormlight (not progression) can heal a persons head being popped like a zit.  

None of this kind of discussion can really thrive when its answered by a mystical blade that is routinely worked around in books but can zigzag around every move the mistborn makes (unless they have atium but thats op and banned).  

I believe that when Scadrial meets Roshar it is in no way going to be one sided.  The living blades and plate will have work arounds as will the radiants have ways to deal with ranged weaponry and medallion tech running around like crazy.  If it were so simply one sided it would make for a dreadfully boring story which really goes back to the real OP equipment

....

Who did Brandon blanket with plot armor.  

I think this is the best breakdown so far mate, especially with how you've laid out all of the information and discussion. An interstellar space age cosmere war would be fairly boring if one magic was inherently superior to the other! I feel that what this discussion has really brought out is that the fight would be a lot more even than defendants of either side originally thought. I certainly find myself in that camp. 

Honestly, it makes me really excited for when we get to see these two sides clash! The Radiants and their bombastic powers vs the Mistborn/ Mistings with their versatility. Really awesome for sure. 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I think this is the best breakdown so far mate, especially with how you've laid out all of the information and discussion. An interstellar space age cosmere war would be fairly boring if one magic was inherently superior to the other! I feel that what this discussion has really brought out is that the fight would be a lot more even than defendants of either side originally thought. I certainly find myself in that camp. 

Honestly, it makes me really excited for when we get to see these two sides clash! The Radiants and their bombastic powers vs the Mistborn/ Mistings with their versatility. Really awesome for sure. 

Both sides will have allies during the space age battle, so it doesn't matter if one side has stronger magic.

 

[Werewolff Studios]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Both sides will have allies during the space age battle, so it doesn't matter if one side has stronger magic.

 

Ah, but who will ally with who? Which combination of Investiture will we see? It's all rather exciting 

[Tglassy]

5 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said:

like frustration said, atium is far more invested than that breath. also, that gives the Mistborn way more supplies than the KR. And step three is bizarre and very biased for Mistborn (intentionally or not). extra spheres and extra vials are part of the average equipment and the spear is useless for the KR because they have a better option.

Well that's what  I mean.  If you stripped them both naked aside for a breath of Stormlight and a Vial of all metals, then the Mistborn loses.  Well.  Maybe.  Because they have no weapons to hurt the Radiant with.  They could still potentially dodge the Blade, becuase Pewter is the bomb diggity, but without a coin pouch, they'd essentially have to wait for the Stormlight to go out, then hand to hand it...which..I mean, Kaladin did it to a guy with Plate, and he didn't even have Pewter.  A Radiant without Stormlight is basically just a guy with a blade.  So it really just depends on whether or not they can hit the Mistborn before their Stormlight runs out, and whether Pewter would give them enough of an edge for long enough to dodge it.  Which I think they could, considering how many Kolos Vin and Elend fought.  I mean, they literally dropped in the middle of an army of giants wielding giant weapons and dodged EVERY attack, without Atium.  People, including Brandon, seem to forget that when they say Mistborn wouldn't be as good on a battlefield.  

If you gave each of them an infinite amount of their investiture, then yeah, Stormlight probably wins.  Infinite healing that works as good or better than gold compounding?  Not sure if loosing one's head would even kill them.  A Gold Compounder who is beheaded just regrows their head.  Radiant might be the same if they have enough Stormlight.  I think the only real chance the Mistborn would have in this case is a Duralumin enahnced Pewter Punch to the face, which would pop it like a zit (we have actual in book evidence of that).  That could MAYBE kill a Radiant with an infinite amount of investiture, and would likely blow through Plate as well, but if not, even Atium wouldn't really help.  Unless you had an infinite amount, in which...yeah.  I don't see anyone actually winning if you gave an infinite amount of power to them.  

That means you gotta limit it somehow.  So I decided one vial and one breath would be fair.  It's not the Mistborn's fault the Radiant blows through their investiture at such a fast rate.  There's barely any investiture in those metals, except Atium, but the more investiture heavy, the quicker it goes, which is why Stormlight and Atium go fast.  

And I still think that the combination of Pewter and Chromium (I've been saying Nicrosil, but that's wrong) gives the Mistborn the edge in this conflict, and adding in Atium just seals the deal.  In fact, how woulld an infinite draw of Chromium work against an infinite amount of stormlight?  No idea.  But if there's a limited amount, Leaching def gives the Mistborn the advantage.  A Pewter Misting with a Chromium granting Spike (or visa versa) could potentially take on a Radiant of every level.  Pewter is pretty intense. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Tglassy

[Werewolff Studios]

7 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Well that's what  I mean.  If you stripped them both naked aside for a breath of Stormlight and a Vial of all metals, then the Mistborn loses.  Well.  Maybe.  Because they have no weapons to hurt the Radiant with.  They could still potentially dodge the Blade, becuase Pewter is the bomb diggity, but without a coin pouch, they'd essentially have to wait for the Stormlight to go out, then hand to hand it...which..I mean, Kaladin did it to a guy with Plate, and he didn't even have Pewter. 

A Radiant without Stormlight is basically just a guy with a blade.  So it really just depends on whether or not they can hit the Mistborn before their Stormlight runs out, and whether Pewter would give them enough of an edge for long enough to dodge it.  Which I think they could, considering how many Kolos Vin and Elend fought.  I mean, they literally dropped in the middle of an army of giants wielding giant weapons and dodged EVERY attack, without Atium.  People, including Brandon, seem to forget that when they say Mistborn wouldn't be as good on a battlefield.  

Well, to be fair, that is Vin and Elend. Elend's a gold-tier Mistborn, and Vin burns enough pewter to near enough be a savant with it. I wouldn't imagine the average Mistborn at the time (thinking someone like Shan Elariel) would've faired nearly as well as they did. Koloss also move slower than a Radiant would, meaning the disparity between the pair of them and the Koloss that much greater. 

Also, Chromium burns quickly as well. We know that it acts like aluminium in the body, meaning the Mistborn likely gets one crack at it. However, Sprenblades aren't dependent on Stormlight. Once the Stormlight and Chromium empty, the Radiant can shift their blade. Plus, the Radiant's unlikely to just stand there while the Mistborn Leeches them.

The scenario I keep imagining is the two combatants grappling each other, the Mistborn draining the Radiant and stabbing at them with a glass dagger. But the Radiants close too, and their weapon strike cannot be blocked, no matter how good their pewter is. Even a normal person can survive a handful of dagger shots. Nothing a Mistborn can do survives a Sprenblade hit. 

Pewter is insane though, I agree. 

[Tglassy]

1 minute ago, Werewolff Studios said:

The scenario I keep imagining is the two combatants grappling each other, the Mistborn draining the Radiant and stabbing at them with a glass dagger. But the Radiants close too, and their weapon strike cannot be blocked, no matter how good their pewter is. Even a normal person can survive a handful of dagger shots. Nothing a Mistborn can do survives a Sprenblade hit. 

Pewter is insane though, I agree. 

The main thing I keep thinking is that the Mistborn can just dodge the Radiant blade.  Pewter would keep them moving faster and react quicker than what Stormlight can grant.  Now, if the Windrunner could paint the ground with a basic lashing and catch a Mistborn in it, then the game would be over, but that's assuming the Mistborn doesn't go to the air on coins.  Coins now firmly rooted on the ground, stuck by stormlight.  

Mistborn just have too many tricks. There are many ways a Radiant COULD win, but they HAVE to do it while their Stormlight is going, and they pretty much require a lucky hit.  A Mistborn getting caught by a basic lashing and not using a steelpushed coin to help escape it.  The Mistborn not dodging correctly.  The Radiant def has a chance at winning, but I think the Mistborn has a greater chance.  Because if the Mistborn has gotten close enough to grapple, Leach away the Stormlight, and put a knife in their head, the game's over.  As i've said, Kaladin did it without Pewter.  A Mistborn would have even BETTER aim.  Heck, a metal button could end it.  Grab the mistborn real quick, leach the stormlight, fire off the button, jump away.  It really just depends on whether the Radiant has more Stormlight.  

It's a close fight.  But without plate, I'd say 70/30 in favor of Mistborn.  With plate, I'd say 60/40 in favor of Radiants, because I don't know how Chromium works with living plate, and the Plate is superior to Pewter, as it grants the strength and speed that Pewter does, but also has protection.  I think it grants similar physical capabilities to pewter becuase Shard Hammers are likely comparable to Kolos Swords, and Vin could wield one of those easy enough.  Yes, yes, I know, Vin is different, but still, she's the main Mistborn we have to go by.  Plate might give more strength, but we don't really have a baseline to go by.  

 

[Werewolff Studios]

3 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

The main thing I keep thinking is that the Mistborn can just dodge the Radiant blade.  Pewter would keep them moving faster and react quicker than what Stormlight can grant.  Now, if the Windrunner could paint the ground with a basic lashing and catch a Mistborn in it, then the game would be over, but that's assuming the Mistborn doesn't go to the air on coins.  Coins now firmly rooted on the ground, stuck by stormlight.  

Mistborn just have too many tricks. There are many ways a Radiant COULD win, but they HAVE to do it while their Stormlight is going, and they pretty much require a lucky hit.  A Mistborn getting caught by a basic lashing and not using a steelpushed coin to help escape it.  The Mistborn not dodging correctly.  The Radiant def has a chance at winning, but I think the Mistborn has a greater chance.  Because if the Mistborn has gotten close enough to grapple, Leach away the Stormlight, and put a knife in their head, the game's over.  As i've said, Kaladin did it without Pewter.  A Mistborn would have even BETTER aim.  Heck, a metal button could end it.  Grab the mistborn real quick, leach the stormlight, fire off the button, jump away.  It really just depends on whether the Radiant has more Stormlight.  

It's a close fight.  But without plate, I'd say 70/30 in favor of Mistborn.  With plate, I'd say 60/40 in favor of Radiants, because I don't know how Chromium works with living plate, and the Plate is superior to Pewter, as it grants the strength and speed that Pewter does, but also has protection.  I think it grants similar physical capabilities to pewter becuase Shard Hammers are likely comparable to Kolos Swords, and Vin could wield one of those easy enough.  Yes, yes, I know, Vin is different, but still, she's the main Mistborn we have to go by.  Plate might give more strength, but we don't really have a baseline to go by.  

 

Hard to say about plate and how that reacts, but I feel that's not really relevant as that's not the original question. 

I don't feel like calling it a lucky hit gives the Radiant enough justice. If the Radiant lands a single hit, it's done. If the Radiant slices a Mistborn's arm, they couldn't use that arm to Leech or throw coins etc either. And when considering that the average Mistborn is trained as an assassin and the average Windrunner is trained as a soldier, I feel that the combative advantage leans towards the Radiant too. 

In the scenario you proposed, when it's a one and done Leeching, I agree; the Mistborn has the advantage. However, utilizing a more standard kit means the Radiant would have more spheres, and the Mistborn can only Leech once before replenishing their metal. A Radiant has to breathe in and they're renewed. 

And what happens if the fight begins and the Radiant waits to summon their blade? The Mistborn leaps close to Leech them and suddenly a spear appears an inch from their chest, leaving them no time to react? 

I feel that @Tamriel Wolfsbaine nailed it with the list below though. 

Mistborn no atium >1st and 2nd ideal. 

3rd ideal with blade > mistborn no atium.  

3rd ideal with blade >= mistborn no atium but firearms (Era 2) 

Mistborn with atium > 3rd ideal with blade

4th ideal with blade and plate > mistborn with atium or firearms

4th ideal with blade and plate >= mistborn with guns and atium 

 

We aren't taking plot armour into account either 

 

[Tglassy]

25 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

We aren't taking plot armour into account either 

That's part of the problem, though.  People will wrap plot armor around their favorites.  Let me try something. 

Mistborn:  Pewter Enhancement, Pewter Healing, Steel/Iron (both for mobility and as a ranged weapon), Emotional Allomancy, Time Bubbles, Sensing/Blocking Investiture, Chromium, Duralumin.  

3rd Ideal Windrunner: Basic Lashing, Reverse Lashing, Full Lashing, Blade, Stormlight Healing, Slight increase in speed.

Now let's compare and elminiate things that are countered by the other to distill the actual advantages.  I'll cancel out advantages that have a reasonable response by the other party, and eleminate them if the other party has a vastly superior version.

Lashings Vs Steel/Iron.  Steel and Iron can either do or counter much of what the Lashings can do.  They are not exactly the same, but they are both flexible and have their own advantages and disadvantages, so I don't mind just canceling these two out.  If the Radiant is close enough to Lash, he's close enough to get Leached, too. 

Blade: This is obvioulsy the Radiant's Trump Card.  There really isn't a response to it.  

Stormlight Healing Vs Pewter Healing: Stormlight is far, far superior.  So much so that I would give Helaing as an advantage to the Radiant but not the Misborn.

Increased abilities: Pewter far outstrips what Stormlight gives, so Mistborn get to keep Enhanced Abilities and Radiant doesn't.  

Emotional Allomancy: No real response.  A Duralumin enhanced push can stun the Radiant, however, so that can't be discounted.  In fact, forcing Kaladin to feel Depression was Moash's entire plan in RoW, so this could actually be an accute advantage, since many Radiants seem to suffer from some form of depression (except The Lopan).  Point Mistborn.

Time Bubbles: No real response.  This is a straight point for Mistborn.  

Chromium: This is the counter to Radiant Healing.  I'll eliminate both from the list.  

Bronze/Copper: No real response to Bronze.  Radiants can't sense Investiture like a Mistborn.  And maybe, MAYBE, Copper can actually prevent Lashings from working on the person.  Not sure about that, but if so, that cancels out another form of Lashing.  

So at this point, Steel/Iron cancels out Lashings, Stormlight Healing trumps Pewter Healing, and Pewter Ability Enhancement trumps Stormlight Enhancement.  So here's the new breakdown:

Mistborn:  Pewter Enhancement, Emotional Allomancy, Time Bubbles, Sensing/Blocking Investiture, Duralumin.  

3rd Ideal Windrunner: Blade

And...that's really it.  Mistborn can counter pretty much everything but the Blade.  Now, that Blade is a HUGE advantage.  But once Stormlight is countered completely, and Chromium basically does that, the you're left with a guy with a blade vs a guy with pewter, mind control, time control, extra senses and the ability to punch your head off.  All this isn't even taking Atium into account. 

 

Do 4th Ideal, and you eliminate Pewter from the Mistborn's advantages.  And that's huge, becasue the Radiant would still have the protection of Plate and Mistborn don't have a counter.  And if that protection would protect them from Chromium, then you add back in their Healing and eleminate Chromium as an advantage.  Then Mistborn just have emotions, time, and senses.  I don't think that's enough to counter the Blade and Plate.  

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Emotional Allomancy: No real response.  A Duralumin enhanced push can stun the Radiant, however, so that can't be discounted.  In fact, forcing Kaladin to feel Depression was Moash's entire plan in RoW, so this could actually be an accute advantage, since many Radiants seem to suffer from some form of depression (except The Lopan).  Point Mistborn.

I don't know about that. The only Windrunner I know for sure is Kaladin. The others don't have proven mental illnesses from what I've seen/remembered. And Kal is hardly an average Windrunner.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Bronze/Copper: No real response to Bronze.  Radiants can't sense Investiture like a Mistborn.  And maybe, MAYBE, Copper can actually prevent Lashings from working on the person.  Not sure about that, but if so, that cancels out another form of Lashing.  

There was a discussion somewhere about copper vs lashing and we ended up deciding that copper would not cancel a Lashing, simply because of the Investiture difference.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Time Bubbles: No real response.  This is a straight point for Mistborn.  

The only way to use those is just for motion basically. I can't think of other practical applications.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

But once Stormlight is countered completely, and Chromium basically does that, the you're left with a guy with a blade vs a guy with pewter, mind control, time control, extra senses and the ability to punch your head off.

Doesn't Chromium leech your metals too? if it does, KR wins that because they can get Investiture faster than the Mistborn (inhaling is faster than swallowing).

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Lashings Vs Steel/Iron.  Steel and Iron can either do or counter much of what the Lashings can do.  They are not exactly the same, but they are both flexible and have their own advantages and disadvantages, so I don't mind just canceling these two out.  If the Radiant is close enough to Lash, he's close enough to get Leached, too. 

I do mind cutting both those out because steel/iron can't affect the rocks that the KR can Lash at them. Plus there is more Lashings can do than Steel/Iron in literally everything.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Ookla the platypus

[Werewolff Studios]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

That's part of the problem, though.  People will wrap plot armor around their favorites.  Let me try something. 

Mistborn:  Pewter Enhancement, Pewter Healing, Steel/Iron (both for mobility and as a ranged weapon), Emotional Allomancy, Time Bubbles, Sensing/Blocking Investiture, Chromium, Duralumin.  

3rd Ideal Windrunner: Basic Lashing, Reverse Lashing, Full Lashing, Blade, Stormlight Healing, Slight increase in speed.

Now let's compare and elminiate things that are countered by the other to distill the actual advantages.  I'll cancel out advantages that have a reasonable response by the other party, and eleminate them if the other party has a vastly superior version.

Lashings Vs Steel/Iron.  Steel and Iron can either do or counter much of what the Lashings can do.  They are not exactly the same, but they are both flexible and have their own advantages and disadvantages, so I don't mind just canceling these two out.  If the Radiant is close enough to Lash, he's close enough to get Leached, too. 

Blade: This is obvioulsy the Radiant's Trump Card.  There really isn't a response to it.  

Stormlight Healing Vs Pewter Healing: Stormlight is far, far superior.  So much so that I would give Helaing as an advantage to the Radiant but not the Misborn.

Increased abilities: Pewter far outstrips what Stormlight gives, so Mistborn get to keep Enhanced Abilities and Radiant doesn't.  

Emotional Allomancy: No real response.  A Duralumin enhanced push can stun the Radiant, however, so that can't be discounted.  In fact, forcing Kaladin to feel Depression was Moash's entire plan in RoW, so this could actually be an accute advantage, since many Radiants seem to suffer from some form of depression (except The Lopan).  Point Mistborn.

Time Bubbles: No real response.  This is a straight point for Mistborn.  

Chromium: This is the counter to Radiant Healing.  I'll eliminate both from the list.  

Bronze/Copper: No real response to Bronze.  Radiants can't sense Investiture like a Mistborn.  And maybe, MAYBE, Copper can actually prevent Lashings from working on the person.  Not sure about that, but if so, that cancels out another form of Lashing.  

So at this point, Steel/Iron cancels out Lashings, Stormlight Healing trumps Pewter Healing, and Pewter Ability Enhancement trumps Stormlight Enhancement.  So here's the new breakdown:

Mistborn:  Pewter Enhancement, Emotional Allomancy, Time Bubbles, Sensing/Blocking Investiture, Duralumin.  

3rd Ideal Windrunner: Blade

And...that's really it.  Mistborn can counter pretty much everything but the Blade.  Now, that Blade is a HUGE advantage.  But once Stormlight is countered completely, and Chromium basically does that, the you're left with a guy with a blade vs a guy with pewter, mind control, time control, extra senses and the ability to punch your head off.  All this isn't even taking Atium into account. 

 

Do 4th Ideal, and you eliminate Pewter from the Mistborn's advantages.  And that's huge, becasue the Radiant would still have the protection of Plate and Mistborn don't have a counter.  And if that protection would protect them from Chromium, then you add back in their Healing and eleminate Chromium as an advantage.  Then Mistborn just have emotions, time, and senses.  I don't think that's enough to counter the Blade and Plate.  

This is a really solid breakdown actually, thanks for the concise formatting!

I'm sorry though, but I feel a few points are worth expanding upon, if that's alright. 

(I will say though that I'm working on this with the believe that both combatants have equal Investiture, rather than a single burst in each.) 

Steel and Iron pulling relies on metal anchors. On this battlefield, the only anchors are loose coins, severely limiting a Mistborn's mobility when compared to a Radiant. That's also not counting the fact that a Radiant could remove the metal they'd be wearing, belt and boot buckles most likely. They wouldn't likely be carrying much else.

Emotional Allomancy is a potential advantage, but it will vary a lot person to person. Kaladin would be vulnerable, sure, but someone like the Lopen; not as much. Plus there's always the spren, and we're not even sure if Emotional Allomancy can effect them at the moment. So it's hard to stack up it's viability.

I don't fully know the advantage of time bubbles either. They'd be great for giving the Mistborn some time to restock their metal, but any time they're using them, they're either cutting themselves off from the fight, or locking themselves in a room with the Radiant. Maybe they could close the distance between them, but then the Radiant can Lash themselves skyward, even further than the Mistborn could travel. If you see a major advantage here though, feel free to correct me. I could certainly be missing something. 

Here's where I'm standing at the end of it all though. A Mistborn is powerful and versatile, absolutely. They have a lot of abilities that could grant them a lot of potential advantages. That's why they make such great assassins and spies, able to adapt to a lot of situations. But they're also used to fighting guards and Mistings beneath their level of power. Again, look at Shan Elariel, who's probably our best look at your average Mistborn. She was skilled, yes, but she also lost to Vin who'd had more experience fighting through her upbringing.

Contrast this with a Windrunner, all of which have spent most of their time fighting and training against other Windrunners or the Fused. Again, they're soldiers with discipline, and likely more aware of their own limitations and, in this hypothetical, likely trained with Kaladin and Teft. 

I can't help but feel that, without prior knowledge that Leeching would work on Stormlight (though we also don't know how Intent or drain rate might play into this), the Mistborn would be more confident in their Allomancy, getting close to strike and being killed by an unblockable lance they couldn't see was coming.

Again, without Atium that is. Atium is like, 90% a Mistborn win at the least. 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

Doesn't Chromium leech your metals too? if it does, KR wins that because they can get Investiture faster than the Mistborn (inhaling is faster than swallowing).

No, it doesn't. 

[Werewolff Studios]

21 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

Doesn't Chromium leech your metals too? if it does, KR wins that because they can get Investiture faster than the Mistborn (inhaling is faster than swallowing).

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, it doesn't. 

Correct. Chromium does burn roughly as fast as duralumin though, as per the below WOB.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

[Immortal Platypus]

okay, that must be the WOB that I saw and thought it was applying to other metals in you. Thanks for the correction.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Radiant might be the same if they have enough Stormlight.  I think the only real chance the Mistborn would have in this case is a Duralumin enahnced Pewter Punch to the face, which would pop it like a zit (we have actual in book evidence of that).  That could MAYBE kill a Radiant with an infinite amount of investiture, and would likely blow through Plate as well, but if not, even Atium wouldn't really help.  Unless you had an infinite amount, in which...yeah.  I don't see anyone actually winning if you gave an infinite amount of power to them.  

This is a point that I have to disagree with.  Progression can channel as much stormlight as is needed into a wound to heal it or even res a buddy.  Likewise gold compounding can be instinctually burnt to heal through just about anything.  

Passive stormlight healing from a non progressive radiant has far more limited use.  I would say it isn't even as good as gold because you can't choose to tap all of your stormlight at once.  I don't think kaladin at 3rd ideal or even Shallan at 4th ideal stand a chance vs Miles in a heal off.  Maybe Lift and Renarin.  But stormlight has to be able to nit a wound. Piecing and slashing wounds are different not only in their mechanisms, but also in what needs to be healed.  Soft tissue damage would be far easier to heal than other damage.  We don't see Kaladin get instant use of his arm back when fighting Szeth.  It takes time.  It does happen but it takes time.  I would argue that that took at least as long as it would take to regrow a head.  Progression is also in the word.  You have to progress that healing which would naturally take place... perhaps stormlight gives some passive form of this but from all of my reading so far I haven't seen a case where a non progression based radiant can instantly will wounds to close or heal faster or slower.  

I know people will point to Shallan on this one.  All I can do is say this... gun shots come into the ER and people have survived being shot in the face... arguably getting shot in the head by a bullet causes more damage to the brain than an arrow would.  Arrows work via lacerating their way through.  They wedge through bones and often leave a very clean wound channel (some of our mechanical broadheads aside).  In the case of Shallan the damage to her CNS was likely far less than if someone got shot by any caliber round we have today.   

Noone gets brought in to the ER after their head gets blown off or squished by a tire... Noone.  I stand on the fact that if Vin duralumin pewter headbutted Shallan her story would have been over.  4th ideal or not.  I'm not arguing for the plate helm or anything.  Just that passive stormlight healing for a non progression radiant is not enough to fix a liquified brain and bone smoothie.  

9 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said:

I don't know about that. The only Windrunner I know for sure is Kaladin. The others don't have proven mental illnesses from what I've seen/remembered. And Kal is hardly an average Windrunner.

Here's my thought on the Windrunners we have seen.  So many of them were bridge 4 before too. Just because Brandon isn't writing about everyone depression and PTSD... Noone comes through that ordeal untouched.  Often the ones you would imagine are coping the best are just the best actors.  Even the most victorious of soldiers carry with them the horrors of what they had to do to get to that point.  You are a good soldier when you can set that aside and do you job.  (Same thing when you just finished trying to save some kid who got hit by a car but your efforts are futile... but now you have to bury it and help the next person).   The rioting and soothing are specifically built for that.  To pull those emotions our of a person... no matter how much they are suppressing them.  It is emotional allomancies entire purpose in the cosmere.  Soothe what you don't want them to feel and riot what you do want them to feel.  

 

12 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Well, to be fair, that is Vin and Elend. Elend's a gold-tier Mistborn, and Vin burns enough pewter to near enough be a savant with it. I wouldn't imagine the average Mistborn at the time (thinking someone like Shan Elariel) would've faired nearly as well as they did. Koloss also move slower than a Radiant would, meaning the disparity between the pair of them and the Koloss that much greater. 

Also, Chromium burns quickly as well. We know that it acts like aluminium in the body, meaning the Mistborn likely gets one crack at it. However, Sprenblades aren't dependent on Stormlight. Once the Stormlight and Chromium empty, the Radiant can shift their blade. Plus, the Radiant's unlikely to just stand there while the Mistborn Leeches them.

The scenario I keep imagining is the two combatants grappling each other, the Mistborn draining the Radiant and stabbing at them with a glass dagger. But the Radiants close too, and their weapon strike cannot be blocked, no matter how good their pewter is. Even a normal person can survive a handful of dagger shots. Nothing a Mistborn can do survives a Sprenblade hit. 

Pewter is insane though, I agree. 

I think the range argument about getting around the blade is valid for the pewter usage though.  Koloss were far taller and stronger than any radiant.  Pushing 10-12 feet.  Vin mentions inquisitors are at least 2 feet taller than her and she is able to maneuver around them as well. 

Yes the spren blade is the win con here.  Give both a stick and the mistborn wins everytime.  Too fast and too strong.  Noone heals a smashed dome... not before the rest of them gets smashed up.  

Vin being an outlier is true but in none of her fights with other mistborn did she win by outmanuevering them in terms of her strength and her speed.  It was more about finding ways to overcome her lack of a metal and she was able to do that time and time again.  That is her plot armor... until preservation took her over.  I would likely put Ham as a winner in a brawl between a 2nd or even 3rd oath stormlight user with just stormlight.  The healing is good but without a shardblade the thug is just better.  

I wouldn't even bother with daggers if I had the power of pewter.   Bludgeoning all the way.  Wayne understands the danger of a good old fashion stick and he isn't even a pewter burner.  

 

[Immortal Platypus]

YAY!!!! Wayne!!!!!

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Here's my thought on the Windrunners we have seen.  So many of them were bridge 4 before too. Just because Brandon isn't writing about everyone depression and PTSD... Noone comes through that ordeal untouched.  Often the ones you would imagine are coping the best are just the best actors.  Even the most victorious of soldiers carry with them the horrors of what they had to do to get to that point.  You are a good soldier when you can set that aside and do you job.  (Same thing when you just finished trying to save some kid who got hit by a car but your efforts are futile... but now you have to bury it and help the next person).   The rioting and soothing are specifically built for that.  To pull those emotions our of a person... no matter how much they are suppressing them.  It is emotional allomancies entire purpose in the cosmere.  Soothe what you don't want them to feel and riot what you do want them to feel.  

 

anyway, I guess you're probably right there. well thought out and put concisely, thank you.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know people will point to Shallan on this one.  All I can do is say this... gun shots come into the ER and people have survived being shot in the face... arguably getting shot in the head by a bullet causes more damage to the brain than an arrow would.  Arrows work via lacerating their way through.  They wedge through bones and often leave a very clean wound channel (some of our mechanical broadheads aside).  In the case of Shallan the damage to her CNS was likely far less than if someone got shot by any caliber round we have today.   

Noone gets brought in to the ER after their head gets blown off or squished by a tire... Noone.  I stand on the fact that if Vin duralumin pewter headbutted Shallan her story would have been over.  4th ideal or not.  I'm not arguing for the plate helm or anything.  Just that passive stormlight healing for a non progression radiant is not enough to fix a liquified brain and bone smoothie. 

I'd point out Vin almost killed herself doing that, not to mention that requires you to get in close.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the range argument about getting around the blade is valid for the pewter usage though.  Koloss were far taller and stronger than any radiant.  Pushing 10-12 feet.  Vin mentions inquisitors are at least 2 feet taller than her and she is able to maneuver around them as well.

Koloss also took forever to swing, and stared blankly if you did something unexpected.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yes the spren blade is the win con here.  Give both a stick and the mistborn wins everytime.  Too fast and too strong.  Noone heals a smashed dome... not before the rest of them gets smashed up. 

I would likely put Ham as a winner in a brawl between a 2nd or even 3rd oath stormlight user with just stormlight.  The healing is good but without a shardblade the thug is just better.  

I wouldn't even bother with daggers if I had the power of pewter.   Bludgeoning all the way.  Wayne understands the danger of a good old fashion stick and he isn't even a pewter burner. 

Lash the Mistborn into the air and let the fall kill them.

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Lash the Mistborn into the air and let the fall kill them.

This only works if the Mistborn has absolutely no coins or other metal on their person

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This only works if the Mistborn has absolutely no coins or other metal on their person

or if you use a reverse lashing pulling them towards you as they fall preventing them from getting a coin underneath them.