Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

[Wits instant noodles]

who would win a fully trained mistborn or a 3rd ideal windrunner. give reasons as for your answer. New people, please vote after reading at least some replies.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Wits instant noodles

[Frustration]

Windrunner because Brandon said so. The only way a mistborn wins is assassination, but anyone wins that way.

Spoiler

Questioner

We've been wondering who would win in a fight, a Mistborn or...a Windrunner.

Brandon Sanderson

It really depends on the situation. I would say the Windrunner will win on a battlefield and the Mistborn will win at sneaking around and slitting people's throats. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

Questioner

Who would win in a fight? Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you convince Vin the need to *inaudible*. Kaladin's a soldier. He wins on the battlefield. He does not win if you sneak up on him at night.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[That1Cellist]

I was going to say Mistborn, but I think that the buffs given to Radiants, including their spren possibly warning the radiant of assassination, is simply too powerful. Honestly, Radiants have access to an absurd amount of investiture. Obviously, the question of how much Stormlight and Atium comes to mind, but I think that the Windrunner wins, especially considering how fast a Mistborn uses Atium compared to Windrunners using stormlight. Even if the Mistborn somehow had unlimited Atium, the Windrunner could escape pretty easily because lashings are a much better way to fly than steelpushing or ironpulling, and it's much more accurate and controllable than duralumin boosting either of those things.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Unknowing

[Quantus]

When you say a "Fully Trained Mistborn" are we talking era 1 with an active Atium economy but limited knowledge, or era 2 with knowledge and access to all 16 metals but no atium?  Or a hypothetical both, with All 16 metals plus the godmetal?    

Time Bubbles would go a long way toward the Superspeed "Win" button of full-born, and Atium is a pretty great defence. But at the end of the day I think the only real path to victory for the Mistborn is to overwhelm the Radiant with a Duralumin attack and then Leech their Stormlight before they recovered, all while avoiding the shardblade.  But if we went to 4th ideal, and Plate blocks Leeching altogether, the mistborn might only be able to pull off a stalemate or a clever surprise attack throat-slitting, or just avoid and wait out their leaky stormlight supply.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Wandering

[Immortal Platypus]

I think a Windrunner wins every time because they can just stay out of range with lashings until their metals run out, unless they are a compounder of speed in which case they might, I repeat, might be able to catch the radiant and win. if the windrunner is 4th ideal, he just wins probably.

[Werewolff Studios]

As others have said, I'd also have to go with Windrunner. In a straight up fight, I feel that their powers are more useful (Lashings aren't determined by surrounding sources of metal to Push and Pull on, healing is more consistent that Pewter and the versatility of their Sprenblades are harder to get around).

This isn't to say a Mistborn couldn't win, it's just more situational; requiring a metal rich arena and likely Duralumin and/or Chromium. Unless they play cat and mouse, where the Radiant probably runs out of Stormlight before the Mistborn runs out of vials. 

[That1Cellist]

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

This isn't to say a Mistborn couldn't win, it's just more situational; requiring a metal rich arena and likely Duralumin and/or Chromium. Unless they play cat and mouse, where the Radiant probably runs out of Stormlight before the Mistborn runs out of vials. 

I agree. In a cat and mouse situation as Windrunner you have really good mobility, and with sprenblades being so versatile, it would take a very skilled Mistborn to avoid everything, even with the amount of tools at their disposal. Also, don't forget the other lashings. No amount of pewter, bendalloy, or agility will help you if the Windrunner is launching large, non-metal objects at you. Even without Stormlight, the Mistborn has to be super careful and probably kill the Windrunner with coins or something because if you get in any sort of closer range combat with the Windrunner you're just going to die.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Unknowing

[Werewolff Studios]

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Unknowing said:

I agree. In a cat and mouse situation as Windrunner you have really good mobility, and with sprenblades being so versatile, it would take a very skilled Mistborn to avoid everything, even with the amount of tools at their disposal. Also, don't forget the other lashings. No amount of pewter, bendalloy, or agility will help you if the Windrunner is launching large, non-metal objects at you. Even without Stormlight, the Mistborn has to be super careful and probably kill the Windrunner with coins or something because if you get in any sort of closer range combat with the Windrunner you're just going to die.

Yeah, this is really it. There's nothing that a Mistborn can do (combat wise) that a Windrunner can't do better, when you're comparing two combatants of equal skill. 

Perhaps Atium would give you the edge, but that's very conditional. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Werewolff Studios
Spelling

[That1Cellist]

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Yeah, this is really it. There's nothing that a Mistborn can do (combat wise) that a Windrunner can't do better, when you're comparing two combatants of equal skill. 

Perhaps Atium would give you the edge, but that's very conditional. 

Yeah, Atium also burns really fast and with the Windrunner's mobility, it's unlikely the Mistborn would be able to do much with it before their reserves were gone.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Unknowing said:

Yeah, Atium also burns really fast and with the Windrunner's mobility, it's unlikely the Mistborn would be able to do much with it before their reserves were gone.

There is a pretty big difference between mistborn and radiant in this case specifically. Once a radiant takes a deep breath that stormlight is on a timer... it will run out.  The mistborn has way way way longer to choose to use atium or not.  A bead of atium may only last a couple of minutes but you don't HAVE to burn it all away once you start burning it.  If the windrunners strategy is to run away until the atium is gone then only a truly stupid mistborn would burn it while not under attack.  

The windrunner has no way to know what or when a mistborn is burning metals meanwhile the mistborn will always be able to see when the windrunner is holding a breath of light... through tin usage and bronze the windrunner can't hide their usage of stormlight... which as already noted is use or lose once breathed in.  

I can't say for sure but I see the mistborn inching out the radiant in strength and speed pre 4th ideal.  I believe steel and iron are faster acceleration when used for flight vs stacking lashings.  

Radiant has better healing and a potential 1 shot kill in the spren blade but the mistborn has ranged attacks and pewter enhanced movements.  Stormlight perfects what your body can naturally do at its peak... pewter is literal magic enhancement.  

With no shardplate to block steel and iron yet the windrunner still has to wear clothes which likely means wearing some metal in one form or another. 

None of that is talking about emotional allomancy.  Every other chapter we see these broken radiants spiraling away from their oaths one way or another... it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to think someone could riot and soothe Kaladin into a catatonic state.  

We can ignore all of the other metals for this fight and it wouldn't make that much of a difference.  Add in the era 2 metals and you have leeching and access to time manipulation as well.  A radiant passing through a time bubble would be hit by that terrible nausea and disorientation... stormlight heals well but all you need is a second to land potentially crippling attack of leeching all stormlight or an attack to the CNS.  

Again.  All metals have an on off switch.  Stormlight is the go button. You breathe and you need to fight. Infact there is more likelihood of the mistborn being able to evade conflict while the radiant runs out of light than the radiant evading until the mistborn runs out of metal.  A vial on your belt will last the entire weeping while all spheres eventually lose light.  

I think mistborn vs windrunner before shardplate even with shardblade is 75% in favor of the mistborn without atium.  90+% with atium.  

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Frustration]

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a pretty big difference between mistborn and radiant in this case specifically. Once a radiant takes a deep breath that stormlight is on a timer... it will run out.  The mistborn has way way way longer to choose to use atium or not.  A bead of atium may only last a couple of minutes but you don't HAVE to burn it all away once you start burning it.  If the windrunners strategy is to run away until the atium is gone then only a truly stupid mistborn would burn it while not under attack.  

The windrunner has no way to know what or when a mistborn is burning metals meanwhile the mistborn will always be able to see when the windrunner is holding a breath of light... through tin usage and bronze the windrunner can't hide their usage of stormlight... which as already noted is use or lose once breathed in.  

I can't say for sure but I see the mistborn inching out the radiant in strength and speed pre 4th ideal.  I believe steel and iron are faster acceleration when used for flight vs stacking lashings.  

Radiant has better healing and a potential 1 shot kill in the spren blade but the mistborn has ranged attacks and pewter enhanced movements.  Stormlight perfects what your body can naturally do at its peak... pewter is literal magic enhancement.  

With no shardplate to block steel and iron yet the windrunner still has to wear clothes which likely means wearing some metal in one form or another. 

None of that is talking about emotional allomancy.  Every other chapter we see these broken radiants spiraling away from their oaths one way or another... it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to think someone could riot and soothe Kaladin into a catatonic state.  

We can ignore all of the other metals for this fight and it wouldn't make that much of a difference.  Add in the era 2 metals and you have leeching and access to time manipulation as well.  A radiant passing through a time bubble would be hit by that terrible nausea and disorientation... stormlight heals well but all you need is a second to land potentially crippling attack of leeching all stormlight or an attack to the CNS.  

Again.  All metals have an on off switch.  Stormlight is the go button. You breathe and you need to fight. Infact there is more likelihood of the mistborn being able to evade conflict while the radiant runs out of light than the radiant evading until the mistborn runs out of metal.  A vial on your belt will last the entire weeping while all spheres eventually lose light.  

I think mistborn vs windrunner before shardplate even with shardblade is 75% in favor of the mistborn without atium.  90+% with atium.  

 

Stormlight can be returned to the gems it was drawn from.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight can be returned to the gema it was drawn from.

Ah I missed that.  There is still the fact that it is the fastest leaking investiture source out there.  Metal doesn't lose its ability to be converted to investiture.  All gems with the exception of perfect gemstones are leaking and the light is evaporating off of them all the time.  Even if a surgebinder were to breathe back onto the gems they would lose their investiture at an infinitely faster rate than metals in a vial (with the exception of perfect gems, 0.00001% of investiture lost over time is infinitely larger than zero).   This was really just to the point of waiting out the atium.  Just turn it off... how would the windrunner ever know that the mistborn was burning atium anyways?  It wouldn't be obvious until suddenly they were being hit in the vitals every swing meanwhile none of their attacks hit.  How many times can an unarmored radiant heal pierced vitals while missing every attack before realizing something weird is happening and still have the light to dip out?   Meanwhile the mistborn very obviously knows when the magic is being used by his opponent and will be able to land shots from ranged ripping through torsos with future sight as the windrunner is running... plus yanking on nonmagically metal to keep in range?  

Windrunner at 3rd ideal is fighting an uphill battle the entire time against a mistborn from even era 1 already.  Add in atium and the the 3rd ideal windrunner is hosed.  

Atium vs the 3rd ideal radiant is as much "can't touch this" plot armor in favor for the mistborn as shardplate is for the 4th ideal radiants vs everything short of nightblood (or other shardblades but speaking of outside Roshar systems specifically).  Atium can sort of even out the playing field vs plate but seeing every move doesn't do anything if you can't break through (which is a horse so dead now its not even funny).  

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Wits instant noodles]

20 hours ago, Ookla the Wandering said:

are we talking era 1 with an active Atium economy but limited knowledge, or era 2 with knowledge and access to all 16 metals but no atium?

Im referring to a Era two mistborn with all 16 metals.

20 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Windrunner because Brandon said so. The only way a mistborn wins is assassination, but anyone wins that way.

Does anyone know when Brandon said this? Was it before or after era 2 was published?

[StanLemon]

A Windrunner will run out of Stormlight far faster than a Mistborn will run out of metals. Regularly in the books Radiants burn through their Stormlight in mere minutes whereas Vin was shown to have hours worth of Pewter, the fastest burning of the basic 8, on her constantly but just so happened to run out only at plot critical moments. Between Bronze and Tin, a Mistborn should be able to see any lashings coming and Steelpushing should be plenty to dodge that. Add Leaching in or Atium and a Mistborn could wreck a third ideal Radiant

[Wits instant noodles]

Another problem I find with storing storm light back into gem stoned is that you no longer have as easy assess to investiture make you more vulnerable to attach as well as not being able to heal from attachs without there storm light in them.  

12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight can be returned to the gema it was drawn from.

 

[Immortal Platypus]

the big problem with all this is how is the mistborn going to kill the Radiant. You get close and they shardblade you unless you have atium. If the mistborn uses atium, the radiant backs off. if you try to kill them with pushes, that's what reverse lashings are for. they can just reverse lash all metal to the ground they're touching. eventually, I agree, the radiant eventually runs out of Stormlight before the mistborn runs out of metals, but I still think they win. plus @Wits instant noodles and i were talking about this which is the reason it's on here, and the original question was "does a fourth ideal radiant beat a mistborn" and I say definitely if it's fourth ideal.

if it's third ideal, which is this question to be clear, it's a close fight but i think the radiant wins.

tell me if there's any flaws in my thinking.

Thanks for the good debate ya'll

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Im referring to a Era two mistborn with all 16 metals.

Does anyone know when Brandon said this? Was it before or after era 2 was published?

2016(it says the date in small text at the bottom for future reference). AoL was published in 2011.

26 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Another problem I find with storing storm light back into gem stoned is that you no longer have as easy assess to investiture make you more vulnerable to attach as well as not being able to heal from attachs without there storm light in them. 

You can draw light in in an instant.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

the big problem with all this is how is the mistborn going to kill the Radiant. You get close and they shardblade you unless you have atium. If the mistborn uses atium, the radiant backs off. if you try to kill them with pushes, that's what reverse lashings are for. they can just reverse lash all metal to the ground they're touching. eventually, I agree, the radiant eventually runs out of Stormlight before the mistborn runs out of metals, but I still think they win. plus @Wits instant noodles and i were talking about this which is the reason it's on here, and the original question was "does a fourth ideal radiant beat a mistborn" and I say definitely if it's fourth ideal.

if it's third ideal, which is this question to be clear, it's a close fight but i think the radiant wins.

tell me if there's any flaws in my thinking.

Thanks for the good debate ya'll

I think the biggest weakness of lashings and reverse lashings is that you have to touch the things you wish to lash... yes a coin being drug down would help to protect the radiant but I don't think it will be as effective no efficient as the argument says.  How many lashings would you need to stop a coin from hitting you if you are just lashing the ground?  A lot more stormlight to stop coins than steel to push them.  And once the ground is lashed it is stationary.  A fight moving around would cause a lot more wasted light than steel or coins... and you are literally giving the mistborn more anchor points to aid in their maneuverability at that point.  

The windrunner is better off reverse lashing a shield and using it more like a lurcher... again then you hand the mistborn more tools for maneuverability.  It becomes mass vs mass at that point as well.  

While I agree that windrunners have more maneuverability and control in the air I would seriously advocate for the mistborn winning in acceleration.  The need to flare pewter to keep from blacking out points to some pretty bonkers G forces that the mistborn go through when flying.  They may not make it up as high in a jump off as a windrunner but those first few hundred feet will happen way faster for a mistborn.   Its the difference between a bullet being shot out of a gun and being dropped off of a building.   I know you can stack lashings but again we run into 1 use of steel and continuous flow and stacking of stormlight to keep up.  

 

[Frustration]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the biggest weakness of lashings and reverse lashings is that you have to touch the things you wish to lash... yes a coin being drug down would help to protect the radiant but I don't think it will be as effective no efficient as the argument says.

Considering that they can redirect bullets with reverse lashings I'd say they would be more effective.

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

Could a Full Lashing bend the path of bullets? Or do they have too much momentum?

Brandon Sanderson

It could.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 27, 2015)

 

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While I agree that windrunners have more maneuverability and control in the air I would seriously advocate for the mistborn winning in acceleration.

Windrunners are always accelerating until they hit terminal velocity, we've seen them do over 200 mph.

[Immortal Platypus]

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The windrunner is better off reverse lashing a shield and using it more like a lurcher... again then you hand the mistborn more tools for maneuverability.  It becomes mass vs mass at that point as well.  

yeah, i just didn't see him with a shield so i didn't mention that, it is a much better solution than lashing the ground

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While I agree that windrunners have more maneuverability and control in the air I would seriously advocate for the mistborn winning in acceleration.  The need to flare pewter to keep from blacking out points to some pretty bonkers G forces that the mistborn go through when flying.  They may not make it up as high in a jump off as a windrunner but those first few hundred feet will happen way faster for a mistborn.   Its the difference between a bullet being shot out of a gun and being dropped off of a building.   I know you can stack lashings but again we run into 1 use of steel and continuous flow and stacking of stormlight to keep up.  

i see what you're saying but a windrunner can go higher. they just go higher than the mistborn can. I would agree that they can accelerate faster, but i feel like they would want to stay on the ground while the windrunner would want to go in the air so the windrunner would have a head start, plus there is a gravity difference which would throw off the mistborn more than the radiant because even if it was on scadrial, neither would be affected because the radiant's lashings are based on the planet's gravity while pushes are based off mass.

and if it's underwater a whole lot of things change that i don't want to list.

this is probably irrelevant, a windrunner would win in a highstorm because they can keep healing while the mistborn couldn't escape. again, mostly irrelevant, but i felt like mentioning it. plus the stormlight would be renewed so it would last as long as most metals so atium is nullified. even if the mistborn isn't crushed, the radiant heals forever and wins. Does anyone disagree with me on that?

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ookla the platypus

[Wits instant noodles]

 

50 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Considering that they can redirect bullets with reverse lashings I'd say they would be more effective.

assuming that your reverse lashing the floor or a wall you would have to stay in almost the same spot witch would negates the radiant other lashings. This meaning a coin could very well hit a radiant as long as they're in air, witch is most the time with a wind runner. Also as previously stated a shield would work better but also would either be made of metals to stop coins at witch point the mistborn can use the shield or if you make it out of wood the coins would pierce it. also if they were to make a shard shield then they would lose there weapon every time they were attached not to mention I don't think you can lash a shard anything.  

 

 

[Monk of Dakhor]

It really depends, if it is a 3rd heightened 9/10 times the Mistborn would win, but when it comes to 4th heightened we need to learn more about how the shard-plate works for living Radiants     

Sorry if someone already said this, I just joined the discussion

Edited December 1, 2022 by Monk of Dakhor
Left out information/Spell changing

[StanLemon]

All we know so far about living Shardplate is that it is summonable, can repair cracks immediately if fed Stormlight, has at least some ability to change its shape, and in the case of Windrunners can be moved to be placed around other people. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Considering that they can redirect bullets with reverse lashings I'd say they would be more effective.

  Reveal hidden contents

VindicationKnight

Could a Full Lashing bend the path of bullets? Or do they have too much momentum?

Brandon Sanderson

It could.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 27, 2015)

 

Windrunners are always accelerating until they hit terminal velocity, we've seen them do over 200 mph.

Hence my argument that the mistborn could specifically out sprint a windrunner ground up (until they hit a height the mistborn can't maintain an anchor at).  

1 hour ago, Ookla the platypus said:

yeah, i just didn't see him with a shield so i didn't mention that, it is a much better solution than lashing the ground

i see what you're saying but a windrunner can go higher. they just go higher than the mistborn can. I would agree that they can accelerate faster, but i feel like they would want to stay on the ground while the windrunner would want to go in the air so the windrunner would have a head start, plus there is a gravity difference which would throw off the mistborn more than the radiant because even if it was on scadrial, neither would be affected because the radiant's lashings are based on the planet's gravity while pushes are based off mass.

and if it's underwater a whole lot of things change that i don't want to list.

this is probably irrelevant, a windrunner would win in a highstorm because they can keep healing while the mistborn couldn't escape. again, mostly irrelevant, but i felt like mentioning it. plus the stormlight would be renewed so it would last as long as most metals so atium is nullified. even if the mistborn isn't crushed, the radiant heals forever and wins. Does anyone disagree with me on that?

The home field advantage argument is just as bad for both sides.  Metals at least exist on Roshar.  If the fight were on Scadrial the radiant wouldn't have access to more light than what they could carry and their spren (thus their surges) aren't going to be there at all. 

[Monk of Dakhor]

I would also say that the fight would also depend on what the Radiant summons their spren as, because, if possible, what I would do in this situation is make a spren shield with a weapon as a part of it, like a shield with a spear coming out the top, which would give the Radiant the advantage of having a shield that would be very hard to break, if possible at all and not be a metal that a Mistborn could push or pull, but if that is impossible than ignore what I said because it would be invalid.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Monk of Dakhor