darniil

Allomantic Space Travel

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So, I was thinking how the third trilogy was mentioned as being in the future (as opposed to the second trilogy being contemporary to our time), and I wondered if the people from Scadrial would be able to visit the other shardworlds without using Shadesmar - and, if so, how would they do it?

The simplest (and most boring, and not germane to the topic) method would be FTL travel.

But then I got to thinking about Pulsers and Sliders.

My first thought was, "Hey, what if a bunch of Pulsers - or some Pulser-inspired technology - could put a bubble around the crew quarters of a starship? That would allow the crew to travel from one system to another within their own lifetimes." Just put the ship on autopilot, power up the Pulser Engine, and go have a sandwich.

Then I tried to figure out if something similar might work for Sliders, but the first bump I hit was that bendalloy bubbles - and cadmium bubbles - were stationary. Which, in turn, would probably rule out the Pulser starship.

But then I thought some more. These books take place in a universe which is, astronomically, pretty much like our own. It follows the same rules of physics. Which means that Scadrial is rotating on its axis, while it revolves around its star, while that star moves within its galaxy, and that galaxy moves within its universe.

Which means, technically, bendalloy and cadmium bubbles aren't stationary. They're stationary relative to one object - Scadrial - but they're perfectly mobile when one looks at the bigger picture.

This makes me think that a Pulser starship might be possible, provided the Pulsing can be anchored to the ship rather than Scadrial.

It also makes me wonder why the default anchor is the planet and why nobody has figured out how to anchor it elsewhere. Is it simply a mental block that could be overcome? Is a person too small to be used as an anchor (even though the bubbles pop up with the person at the center)? Can a bubble's size be altered, dependent upon the size of its anchor? (That is, could a small bubble be made around, say, a person's heart if the whole person were the anchor?)

I still dig the idea of Allomancers Iiiin Spaaaaace!, though I'm not entirely sure how it would work.

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So, I was thinking how the third trilogy was mentioned as being in the future (as opposed to the second trilogy being contemporary to our time), and I wondered if the people from Scadrial would be able to visit the other shardworlds without using Shadesmar - and, if so, how would they do it?

The simplest (and most boring, and not germane to the topic) method would be FTL travel.

source = https://sites.google.com/site/brandonothology/brandonothology/part-3

...[This one might already be known, but it sounded new to me] The third Mistborn trilogy will be sci-fi, involving space travel. Crossovers, anyone? This might be the beginning of the final stage of Unity

source = https://sites.google.com/site/brandonothology/brandonothology/part-3

Quafe: You have, undoubtedly, mastered the fantasy genre. Do you ever see yourself writing science fiction? I ask because I remember reading two or three years ago on TWG that your plan is to make the second Mistborn trilogy set in a steampunk/industrialized world and the third and final trilogy in a more sci-fi setting. So I'm just wondering if that plan still holds.

Brandon: Both of my novellas linked above are SF. I do plan to do SF in the future. The final Mistborn trilogy will indeed be sf, with a deep understanding of Allomancy and Feruchemy having allowed them to figure out a method of FTL travel. I also have a space opera I've been wanting to write. So far, no time.

.....

Renian: When will we see a book that basically revolves around the concept of the Cosmere and the shard-travelers? Basically, a book revolving around people like Hoid who can jump from shard to shard.

Brandon: Third Mistborn Trilogy involves a lot of this. I MIGHT do some parallel stories showing more of what Hoid has been up to. He is a primary viewpoint protagonist of Dragonsteel, but that happens before all of the other books.

So FTL is confirmed

Edited by Catalyst21
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There's an issue with conservation of momentum with speed bubbles.

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At the signing I asked Brandon to personalize the book with a suggestion for a unique or rare effect that could be achieved with a metal. He signed

Watch for what happens when something leaves a bendalloy bubble.

He then laughed and said "That won't make any sense for 10 books"

This leads me to believe that this might be related to the FTL travel.

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New member here!

Seems to me that the bubbles must be tied to whatever surface the allomancer in standing on, otherwise Wayne wouldn't be able to use it on a train.

That said, I'm not 100% sure he ever does use it on a train, but I think the theory is likely. If anyone remebers Wayne using one in a train, let us know!

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Thanks, Catalyst.

He then laughed and said "That won't make any sense for 10 books"

Now I need to go re-read a final battle scene in AoL:

At the end, I thought Wax fired his gun inside of Wayne's bendalloy bubble, aiming at an angle from Marasi and the koloss Thug, calculated the bullet's trajectory once it was outside the bubble, and then had Wayne drop the bubble so he could shoot a second bullet at the first in normal-time.

That's definitely not ten books from now, so maybe I misread that scene.

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That's definitely not ten books from now, so maybe I misread that scene.

I would assume that Brandon meant that there would be something more significant to objects leaving the bubble that that one event.

I'm pretty sure you read the scene correctly, at least that is how I read it as well

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New member here!

Seems to me that the bubbles must be tied to whatever surface the allomancer in standing on, otherwise Wayne wouldn't be able to use it on a train.

That said, I'm not 100% sure he ever does use it on a train, but I think the theory is likely. If anyone remebers Wayne using one in a train, let us know!

To extend the above theory, it could be tied to the direction and speed the allomancer is traveling when the bubble is formed. IE: if Wayne was running straight North, formed a bubble the bubble would keep going North at the speed (outside bubble) Wayne was traveling, however Wane (traveling inside the bubble) would quickly run out of the bubble.

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To extend the above theory, it could be tied to the direction and speed the allomancer is traveling when the bubble is formed. IE: if Wayne was running straight North, formed a bubble the bubble would keep going North at the speed (outside bubble) Wayne was traveling, however Wane (traveling inside the bubble) would quickly run out of the bubble.

If we assume a normal bubble is tied to the planet, this theory has some issues.

The planet moves in a circular orbit around a star, therefore, its direction is changing. If the bubble was tied to the direction and speed of the object it is tied to, it would shoot off into the sky as the planet's direction of motion changed.

We probably will not know if bubbles can be tied to things other than the planets until a new book, but I think we can discount the "tied to direction and speed" theory.

Although, what is interesting, is if they can be tied to moving vechicles, it what if a bendalloy bubble was tied to a moving car? obviously the bubble would be to small for a starship, but it could mabye cover a whole automoblie, allowing to to transverse great distances very quickly (to the eye outside the bubble)

Edited by Ness
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If we assume a normal bubble is tied to the planet, this theory has some issues.

The planet moves in a circular orbit around a star, therefore, its direction is changing. If the bubble was tied to the direction and speed of the object it is tied to, it would shoot off into the sky as the planet's direction of motion changed.

We probably will not know if bubbles can be tied to things other than the planets until a new book, but I think we can discount tied to direction theory.

no, using my above example, Wayne is on the planet, so the direction he is moving already accounts for the rotation and revolution of the planet, galaxy, and cosmere.

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no, using my above example, Wayne is on the planet, so the direction he is moving already accounts for the rotation and revolution of the planet, galaxy, and cosmere.

Just confused i guess on what the bubble is bound to here, is it Wayne himself? I just think someone (on scardwhatever) would have thought of that already, considering it takes away pretty much the only downside to their ability.

(edit):

I think I get it now. Not sure if it would work, still seems like they would know bout it, but it does have awesome implications. You could run at someone, activate the bubble, and effectivly "shoot" the bubble at them. I assume such an experience unexpected would be very disorienting, not to mention distracting

Edited by Ness
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Just confused i guess on what the bubble is bound to here, is it Wayne himself? I just think someone (on scardwhatever) would have thought of that already, considering it takes away pretty much the only downside to their ability.

no it does not

what I described would explain the perception they have.

If your moving when you form the bubble, the bubble keeps moving at the same speed/direction relative to outside time, however you are now in "fast time". If you are moving fast when you put up the bubble you would run out of it pretty fast (remember you start in the middle of it, even with a 5 yard bubble, 7.5 feet and you'd hit the edge).

we can do more reasoning along these lines if we can figure out the size a bubble Wayne can cast. The smallest bubble I can find is the wedding scene (waiter -> gentleman), the largest the wedding fight scene?

and come up with a compression ratio, I think there is enough info to figure it out.

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we can do more reasoning along these lines if we can figure out the size a bubble Wayne can cast. The smallest bubble I can find is the wedding scene (waiter -> gentleman), the largest the wedding fight scene?

and come up with a compression ratio, I think there is enough info to figure it out.

Yep, I get it now, it could work. But think about if they can make very small moving bubbles. They haven't had much use for stationary small bubbles, so we don't know if small ones are possible, but a small bubble passing though your body that deflects small objects? Could certainly be fatal to the correct regions of the body.

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I think what Brandon was hinting at is that not only does the bubble bend time, it also bends space, hence the bullets getting deflected when they leave the bubble. Bending space is a key concept in warp travel in Star Trek.

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I think what Brandon was hinting at is that not only does the bubble bend time, it also bends space, hence the bullets getting deflected when they leave the bubble. Bending space is a key concept in warp travel in Star Trek.

actually bending space is a concept from the Einstein-Rosen Bridge theory, which is what Star Trek (and most other FTL/wormhole theory's are based on.)

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I think what Brandon was hinting at is that not only does the bubble bend time, it also bends space, hence the bullets getting deflected when they leave the bubble. Bending space is a key concept in warp travel in Star Trek.

While the theory of cadium to put a crew in effective statis would potentially work, it is not truely FTL travel, so i think this theory is undoubtly the best one. The "also" isn't even really needed, as there is no space or time, there is only space-time. Bendalloy cannot be bending one without bending the other (in someway).

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Um.. There are a few things that have to be considered, I think.

One is this:

as NinjaMeTimbers have noticed, the space and time bend together.

two, there is a following passage:

The bullet shot out of the bubble in an instant, then hit slower time. It deflected, as bullets always did when fired from within a speed bubble.

For some reason, (likely my incomplete knowledge of English Language), the composition "shot out, then hit" bothers me. It is like there is a space between the two. Anyways, it got me thinking: from POV of person in a bubble, what is the velocity of the bullet that is only halfway through the bubble border? Outside velocity or inside velocity? My guess would be the inside, with the outside part of the bullet changing length to fit, only for a moment. That means, that the bubble border acts like one half of the Alcubierre drive bubble, and Cadmium bubble as the other half, so if you actually combine the half-bubbles, you can realize the drive in the link, which is FTL.

Although this one wonders, why does the light pass through the thing without bending. I mean, photons are lighter that bullets, but they don't get deflected. Why?

Thoughts?

Edited by Satsuoni
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And now for something completely different:

FTL bothers me. Even with some sort of technology that makes it possible, it'll still take stupid amounts of time to physically move in cosmere (assuming it's like our universe on interstellar/intergalactic scale). So that Allomantic FTL tech is just half of the question, and I'm quite certain anything Sanderson writes won't be moving at the speed of plot. So unless they manage to create a way to instantly move from any point in cosmere to any other, interstellar travellers must be protected against passage of time (then there's bound to be some funky stuff happening with time at FTL speeds, such as time starting to flow backwards or some such craziness, which would be even more troublesome).

Then there's the matter of acceleration. Human body isn't very well suited to withstand the kinds of acceleration that must appear when going from 0 to who knows how many times the speed of light. I doubt any sort of material can take that kind of vector to the chin like a man.

And then there's the problem of navigation. Any kind of sensory device would go nuts at FTL (not to mention the ridiculousness of the idea of manually steering something moving at FTL speed), so the spaceship must be flying blind on a predetermined route. But how can such a route be determined beforehand? It can't be mapped. Anything you sent beforehand to map out would have to send its signal back at FTL to be of use. Even if you had a sensor that can somehow send FTL signals forward and then receive them back also at FTL, you'd have to scan an impossibly huge cone of space to be able to calculate a route which will allow the spaceship to pass unharmed taking account of the passage of time after it launches.

Even after that is accomplished, the problem of maneuverability still stands. You'll still have to steer something that's going faster than light around things like stars, blackholes, asteroid belts and the tiniest fraction of change in velocity will rip apart the puny humans inside.

Last but not least, is those puny humans inside. What'll happen to them with all the time-space shenanigans, assuming they didn't paint the walls when taking that left turn at Albuquerque? How long will the journey take for them? How long will it look from Scadrial? What are they gonna do once they get there? How much stuff will they need to survive the journey and do whatever it is they want to do once there, which also reminds me of the matter of mass (and of course energy) which I was trying to avoid thinking about...

In short, I'm quite bothered by the whole concept of FTL, Allomantic or otherwise. There's far too many things sticking out to be answered satisfactorily by "it's magic!" The speed of plot thing is so pervasive in media because of these and more that I certainly missed. On the bright side, Sanderson still has years ahead till he gets to write about Allomantic FTL travel. Maybe he'll solve all these problems with Allomancy+Feruchemy.

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And now for something completely different:

FTL bothers me. Even with some sort of technology that makes it possible, it'll still take stupid amounts of time to physically move in cosmere (assuming it's like our universe on interstellar/intergalactic scale). So that Allomantic FTL tech is just half of the question, and I'm quite certain anything Sanderson writes won't be moving at the speed of plot. So unless they manage to create a way to instantly move from any point in cosmere to any other, interstellar travellers must be protected against passage of time (then there's bound to be some funky stuff happening with time at FTL speeds, such as time starting to flow backwards or some such craziness, which would be even more troublesome).

Then there's the matter of acceleration. Human body isn't very well suited to withstand the kinds of acceleration that must appear when going from 0 to who knows how many times the speed of light. I doubt any sort of material can take that kind of vector to the chin like a man.

And then there's the problem of navigation. Any kind of sensory device would go nuts at FTL (not to mention the ridiculousness of the idea of manually steering something moving at FTL speed), so the spaceship must be flying blind on a predetermined route. But how can such a route be determined beforehand? It can't be mapped. Anything you sent beforehand to map out would have to send its signal back at FTL to be of use. Even if you had a sensor that can somehow send FTL signals forward and then receive them back also at FTL, you'd have to scan an impossibly huge cone of space to be able to calculate a route which will allow the spaceship to pass unharmed taking account of the passage of time after it launches.

Even after that is accomplished, the problem of maneuverability still stands. You'll still have to steer something that's going faster than light around things like stars, blackholes, asteroid belts and the tiniest fraction of change in velocity will rip apart the puny humans inside.

Last but not least, is those puny humans inside. What'll happen to them with all the time-space shenanigans, assuming they didn't paint the walls when taking that left turn at Albuquerque? How long will the journey take for them? How long will it look from Scadrial? What are they gonna do once they get there? How much stuff will they need to survive the journey and do whatever it is they want to do once there, which also reminds me of the matter of mass (and of course energy) which I was trying to avoid thinking about...

In short, I'm quite bothered by the whole concept of FTL, Allomantic or otherwise. There's far too many things sticking out to be answered satisfactorily by "it's magic!" The speed of plot thing is so pervasive in media because of these and more that I certainly missed. On the bright side, Sanderson still has years ahead till he gets to write about Allomantic FTL travel. Maybe he'll solve all these problems with Allomancy+Feruchemy.

Could you please read the link above, before posting?

The drive presented there addresses most of the concerns you have presenting, and is more or less physically sound, excepting the fact that IRL we do cannot compress time, only dilate it ( negative energy, etc), but that can be addressed with Allomancy (bendalloy, I think).

Just to be clear, here is how the thing works : the timespace before ship is compressed, behind expanded, with the result that the ship ends up in another place with arbitary speed, but without accelerating, or actually moving. So the problems of acceleration and navigating obstacles are gone, and the speed can be made essentially as high as necessary, up to near-instant. Sure, everything in-between will be probably destroyed, but that is another problem entirely. So Brandon will not have to change much from current system, and that is only the solution I came up with, and I am sure there are many others, similarly viable...

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There are an enormous number of FTL systems in science fiction. Most of them just ignore the problems entirely and turn the spaceships into boats "that go real fast". For those that don't, the justifications go across a ridiculously wide range of plausibility, although to be honest, none of them are really plausible in this place we call "The real world." Here are some of the common ones, sorted by functionality, not by technobabble:

1) Jump from point A to point B without going through the real world. The jump or may not be instantaneous. Gets around light-speed problems in our own universe; doesn't address problem of the fact that it is also a potential time machine. This second part is often ignored and time travel doesn't happen.

2) Portal techniques, in which you take a shortcut somebody built through time and space. Most plausible technique, except building and maintaining the portal seems unlikely in the real world. Manages to avoid most time travel and paradoxes in practice, though not in theory.

Clearly with these two types of systems, there are no problems with steering and the like. Just aiming and shooting. Problems with aiming and shooting are in fact one of the main sources of technical trouble, in most stories that use them. Think "Millennium Falcon".

3) You go through real space at a speed faster than that of light. This one is the most common. There really wouldn't be that much trouble with aiming, steering and the like. Space is empty. I mean, seriously. If you were to average out all mass in the galaxy over its volume, you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the galaxy and a perfect vacuum. Only the fact that we live in one of the clumps makes it seem different. Space, as a whole, is also extremely predictable in its basic dynamics. Aiming and pointing are things astronomers have become seriously good at over the years, and that's without the need to actually go anywhere (and it has been done from a moving platform, no less!). These things could be easily automated (we've done it several times), assuming that you don't need a human being to keep it running. As for how long it takes: Once you gotten over the speed of light, the sky's the limit. It takes however long it takes according to the clever justification you have found to make it possible in the first place. There are probably limits, but they're what the author wants to give.

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And then there's the problem of navigation. Any kind of sensory device would go nuts at FTL (not to mention the ridiculousness of the idea of manually steering something moving at FTL speed), so the spaceship must be flying blind on a predetermined route. But how can such a route be determined beforehand? It can't be mapped. Anything you sent beforehand to map out would have to send its signal back at FTL to be of use. Even if you had a sensor that can somehow send FTL signals forward and then receive them back also at FTL, you'd have to scan an impossibly huge cone of space to be able to calculate a route which will allow the spaceship to pass unharmed taking account of the passage of time after it launches.

Even after that is accomplished, the problem of maneuverability still stands. You'll still have to steer something that's going faster than light around things like stars, blackholes, asteroid belts and the tiniest fraction of change in velocity will rip apart the puny humans inside.

Atium can be used to counter that, much like the guild navigators used spice in the Dune series. Atium + Duralimin or Atium + Nicrosil could be used possibly to chart a path.

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1) Jump from point A to point B without going through the real world. The jump or may not be instantaneous. Gets around light-speed problems in our own universe; doesn't address problem of the fact that it is also a potential time machine. This second part is often ignored and time travel doesn't happen.

Would this be like folding space as if it were a sheet of cloth, so that you could get from one corner to the other without actually having to travel across the whole length of the cloth?

I was also wondering if you could elaborate on the time travel part. If this function is related to spacefolding, then I've definitely never heard that time travel could potentially happen, and that makes me interested.

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Would this be like folding space as if it were a sheet of cloth, so that you could get from one corner to the other without actually having to travel across the whole length of the cloth?

I was also wondering if you could elaborate on the time travel part. If this function is related to spacefolding, then I've definitely never heard that time travel could potentially happen, and that makes me interested.

The mechanism varies from work to work. Sometimes you go through an alternate space in which the laws of physics are different and FTL is allowed. Other times the universe bends, just like you said. Issac Asimov used so-called hyperspace, and even had an early short story in which the time of traversal was a plot point (he claimed that later technology got around that fact).

The time-travel part comes from the fact that (best we can tell nowadays) the basic structure of the universe in which we live is space-time. Space and time together. They are literally inseparable in modern physics. When you start moving, the classical effects of Einstein's special relativity are due to the fact that you are moving at a different "angle" through space-time than is the place you started from. Of the many side effects is the fact that the term "instantaneous" has no meaning for points that are widely separated by space. If you jump "instantaneously" from point A to point B, there will be another observer for whom you appeared before you left. No matter how you do the math, if you have an instantaneous drive and as long as Special Relativity is locally true everywhere, you will be able to also travel in time along your own timeline.

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t the bubble border acts like one half of the Alcubierre drive bubble, and Cadmium bubble as the other half, so if you actually combine the half-bubbles, you can realize the drive in the link, which is FTL.

This sounds very much like something an author might look up when thinking up ideas for powers relating to space travel. Brandon may even have this in mind, 'Gasper' ferrings are obviously intended for the sci-fi because they carry their own air supply. He may have planned cadmium and bendalloy for this exact purpose.

The only question is how do the mistings get the bends in the needed shape? And what about when Marasi asks Wayne what happens when a cadmium and a bendalloy bubble go up at the same time and he answers "nothing" ?

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This sounds very much like something an author might look up when thinking up ideas for powers relating to space travel. Brandon may even have this in mind, 'Gasper' ferrings are obviously intended for the sci-fi because they carry their own air supply. He may have planned cadmium and bendalloy for this exact purpose.

The only question is how do the mistings get the bends in the needed shape? And what about when Marasi asks Wayne what happens when a cadmium and a bendalloy bubble go up at the same time and he answers "nothing" ?

As to "Gaspers," so many very bad things happen when you expose organic tissue to vacuum that having an air supply isn't going to help much.

As to "nothing," it's actually Marasi who says it, contextualized by "They cancel one another out. Nothing happens." (pg 202). Sorry.

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