2spooky4myshirt

What are the Men of Gold and Red?

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The only example of gold skin I remember are the Iriali, but unless they have some hidden power and a strong connection to autonomy I don't see why they would form an army for her, or why that army would be a great threat.

I'm assuming its a RAFO with yet another planet and power system Autonomy has under her power. But I'm still throwing the question here in the hopes a better theorist noticed something I didn't.

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Well the Iriali have been on the long trail moving from planet to planet. Potentially at some point some Iriali, or an ethnic offshoot, were turned into soldiers for Autonomy in the past.  

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My guess is that it is some sort of Taldanian military force or something of the like. Taldain’s story took place hundreds of years before era 2, so we have very little info on what’s going on there.

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22 minutes ago, Ookla the Headmuncher said:

My guess is that it is some sort of Taldanian military force or something of the like. Taldain’s story took place hundreds of years before era 2, so we have very little info on what’s going on there.

Very likely, but no one in that series had Gold Skin. Granted, we didn't see much of the world, but the Iriali (or their long-trail workshopping offshoots) are still our closest phenotypical match. 

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Sand armor.  Looks golden, and it's right up against their body, so it looks like skin. 

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I kinda have this theory bubbling that the Iriali are originally from Sel, fleeing from Autonomy, who conscripted most of their number into her army of gold and red as her 'fee' for helping Odium kill Aona and Skai. Still working on it, but we know there's still a continent we haven't seen on Sel, we know that Odium had help from Autonomy when Splintering Devotion and Dominion, we also know that those two weren't on the top of his hit list and the only reason he went after them when he did was because he came across them first/it was convenient, and we know VERY little about what magic on Sel looked like BEFORE Aona and Skai were killed.....and when it comes to the Iriali and their gold skin I've always had the nagging thought that they almost sound a lot like the silver-skinned Elantrians, just minus the glow.....which the Elantrians didn't have either, when the core Elantris Aon was disrupted.

Basically, I've kinda been wondering if pre-Dor, Sel had another civilization that was like an inverse of Elantris, maybe primarily of Skai, way before his bone priests and their magic system, which seem to have only originated after his death. But imagine an....anti-Elantris, almost, with gold-skinned magic users born of Dominion the way Elantrians are transformed by their Devotion to something.....and Autonomy maybe even steered Odium and his Shard-shattering plans to Sel DELIBERATELY....because while Devotion and Dominion might not have been at the top of HIS hit list....who is more anathema to Autonomy than Dominion? Someone who by their Intent seeks to dominate all others, perhaps with an army of golden skinned magic users of power comparable to Elantrians....that Shard would ABSOLUTELY be at the top of Bavadin's hitlist....and since she seems to have no problem using the tools/magic/creations of other Shards when they catch her interest, such as how she was so willing to Invest herself into Scadrial and use her own god-metal in her plans there.....she strikes me as someone who is multi-purpose, and could very well go around sniping other Shards or getting others to do it for her, while at the same time using those strikes as a shopping expedition for her to scavenge anything of theirs that strikes her fancy or makes her think 'oooh, the things I could do with that.'

Such as....an army of golden skinned magic warriors....now with streaks or accents of red, after being corrupted away from Dominion's Investiture to be remade somewhat in her own image....an army of Autonomy that interestingly enough, in EFFECT is not so different from what Skai might have intended for them, being used to conquer, destroy and well, dominate other people and planets....but all in the name of Autonomy's Intent and her weird lens of seeing domination as something that falls within her purview as long as she can justify that its wholly in the name of ensuring her own longterm Autonomy.

But yeah....even without Sel being destroyed, as opposed to how a lot of theories have the Iriali starting out on their long trail because of the destruction of their homeworld.....Autonomy using the deaths of Aona and Skai to try and conscript Skai's army/'chosen people' into her service, willingly or not....that's the sort of thing that could send anyone who escaped her initial snatch and grab into the wind, fleeing Sel in all sorts of directions to try and (ironically) preserve their own autonomy.

And I could easily see some Iriali ending up on Roshar, by way of Odium himself, if he happened to react to realizing Bavadin had used him to some degree by offering refuge (with plans of his own for them) for some Iriali fleeing her grasp....or else, perhaps some particularly cosmere-savvy Iriali at some point in the past realized that the single best place TO hide from Autonomy - their own personal bogeyman, something they feared even more than Odium - was in the system Odium was imprisoned in, since despite working together in the past, there's a lot of plausible reasons Iriali might think she'd give the Roshar system a wide berth in recent millennia.

After all, regardless of any personal relationship or state of alliance she might have still had with Rayse/Odium after the Oathpact imprisoned him within the Roshar system....if there's one Shard in the entire cosmere who would be inclined to stay faaaaaar away from a system that was literally being used as a prison for a Shard.....it would be Autonomy.

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4 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I kinda have this theory bubbling that the Iriali are originally from Sel, fleeing from Autonomy, who conscripted most of their number into her army of gold and red as her 'fee' for helping Odium kill Aona and Skai. Still working on it, but we know there's still a continent we haven't seen on Sel, we know that Odium had help from Autonomy when Splintering Devotion and Dominion, we also know that those two weren't on the top of his hit list and the only reason he went after them when he did was because he came across them first/it was convenient, and we know VERY little about what magic on Sel looked like BEFORE Aona and Skai were killed.....and when it comes to the Iriali and their gold skin I've always had the nagging thought that they almost sound a lot like the silver-skinned Elantrians, just minus the glow.....which the Elantrians didn't have either, when the core Elantris Aon was disrupted.

Basically, I've kinda been wondering if pre-Dor, Sel had another civilization that was like an inverse of Elantris, maybe primarily of Skai, way before his bone priests and their magic system, which seem to have only originated after his death. But imagine an....anti-Elantris, almost, with gold-skinned magic users born of Dominion the way Elantrians are transformed by their Devotion to something.....and Autonomy maybe even steered Odium and his Shard-shattering plans to Sel DELIBERATELY....because while Devotion and Dominion might not have been at the top of HIS hit list....

I also think the Irali were on Sel. They built Elantris and left which is why modern Elatrians found it empty. 
https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108743-crack-theories/?do=findComment&comment=1362762

That both have metallic skin seems like a big clue. Also the names they use are often 3 letters like Aons. Iri, Evi, Toh

Not sure if Sel was first world for them or not. I can see the Autonomy connection. They have three monarchs each working independent of the other two. Their Long Trail mythology of a god dividing themselves into many fits Autonomy as well or better than Adonalsium’s shattering. 

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4 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I also think the Irali were on Sel. They built Elantris and left which is why modern Elatrians found it empty. 
https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108743-crack-theories/?do=findComment&comment=1362762

That both have metallic skin seems like a big clue. Also the names they use are often 3 letters like Aons. Iri, Evi, Toh

Not sure if Sel was first world for them or not. I can see the Autonomy connection. They have three monarchs each working independent of the other two. Their Long Trail mythology of a god dividing themselves into many fits Autonomy as well or better than Adonalsium’s shattering. 

Well I was actually thinking about that last part and how it could also pertain to the idea that the Iriali were originally of Skai/Dominion....because a Shard with the Intent of holding dominion over all might certainly view themselves as being The One, who seeks to make all others apart of him, or encourages his worshippers to view him as already being all-encompassing....

And as such, his people might view his Shattering and subsequently being part of the Dor, which is mixed into everything about Sel....as being the same kind of thing the Iriali religion talks about as well. 

So the twist there would be people naturally assume that the Iriali are referring to Adonalsium's Shattering, and their whole belief about how attaining the Seventh Land will see The One reformed.....whereas maybe the Iriali have always been referring to DOMINION'S Shattering, and whatever their prophecies (perhaps Skai had a degree of future-sight as well?) say about the Seventh Land.....is really in pursuit of reforming the Shard of Dominion.

We know the Iriali's story is meant to continue in a big way in the space age of the cosmere....and if you imagine the cosmere as having a three-act structure....with the big bad of the primarily historical fantasy act being Odium....the big bad of the primarily modern/urban fantasy act of the cosmere being Autonomy......then there could be a third big bad coming down the pipeline for the space age.....and who would see Dominion coming as the final big bad, thanks to him being seen as not-even-a-contender for the majority of the cosmere's published history?

Edited by TheoreticalMagic
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The thing that makes me wonder is that army of "gold and red" were sent to destroy Scadrial's civilazation as we know. Not conquer, but destroy, as it was to dangerous to let them be alive. And they always mention as "men of gold and red" - nothing more, except guns when Marasi saes them. Their color and objective makes me doubt that they are humans as we know them - it would be just to hard to destroy whole planet's civilazation with living army that need constant supplies (Desolations on Roshar proves that). The duality of their color is the only description we got, and they were to be used only if the bomb would fail - not with the bomb to subject the population under the Set. They must be much grater threat than just some people, not to be deployed alongside regular Set members. That made me think about other dangerous, weird, almost single color entities - Shades of Threnody - men of black and red when enraged. They are not exactly the same, but I think "men of gold and red" might be made in the image of Shades, but more controlable and self-aware version of them - basically some sort of Cognitive Shadows, as they would not need any supplies, almost unkillable, with additional shades-like abilities they could easily destroy whole life on the planet. They might even work as Fused and required a host body to take over - there was a cave full of people to use just where the perpendicularity was. Regular human army even with advanced technology would have hard time inviding another planet just from single location. 

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While I also had this theory there is a WoB that seems to disprove it:

Solfor (paraphrased)

So the Iriali, their religion, the whole the One breaking themselves into the many to experience the universe. You also have Autonomy breaking themselves into many avatars. So I was wondering is Autonomy connected to the Iriali in any meaningful way.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So are the Iriali connected to Autonomy in a meaningful way? 

I'd say no. I mean they're slightly connected, but in a meaningful way, no, they're not connected.

Autonomy did not start the Iriali religion.

DragonCon 2019 (Sept. 2, 2019)
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35 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

While I also had this theory there is a WoB that seems to disprove it:

Solfor (paraphrased)

So the Iriali, their religion, the whole the One breaking themselves into the many to experience the universe. You also have Autonomy breaking themselves into many avatars. So I was wondering is Autonomy connected to the Iriali in any meaningful way.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So are the Iriali connected to Autonomy in a meaningful way? 

I'd say no. I mean they're slightly connected, but in a meaningful way, no, they're not connected.

Autonomy did not start the Iriali religion.

DragonCon 2019 (Sept. 2, 2019)

Ah, darn. That would be interesting.

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Hmm, hadn't seen that WoB before so thanks for that. I do think given the context of the question and how it framed it as about the Iriali's religion rather than other aspects of their history does leave room for them to still be connected to Autonomy via fleeing her after the killing of Aona and Skai on Sel, so there is that.

And I definitely think an army of Elantris-level magic users would be TERRIFYING....whereas the Iriali who aren't a part of said army could quite understandably be disconnected from that magic or unaware of it or how to use it....especially given that Sel-originating magics are region-based and need very specific hacks to work offworld (though of course, offworld usage IS doable, hence why an army originating from Sel could maintain its magical effectiveness elsewhere).

Edited by TheoreticalMagic
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I'm thinking Taldain Space Marines, they just appear to have Gold and Red skin because of advanced power armor. If I remember right White Sand was over a thousand (or more) years before Elantris so they might be space age. Although this would raise the question as to why they didn't use spaceships. Maybe Autonomy forbade them as they could allow the Taldainians to escape her grasp?

I dunno I'm just spitballing here.

Edited by JustQuestin2004
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11 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm thinking Taldain Space Marines, they just appear to have Gold and Red skin because of advanced power armor. If I remember right White Sand was over a thousand (or more) years before Elantris so they might be space age. Although this would raise the question as to why they didn't use spaceships. Maybe Autonomy forbade them as they could allow the Taldainians to escape her grasp?

I dunno I'm just spitballing here.

 

I'm of the same opinion. I don't think men of gold necessarily means literally gold skin. Just gold armor or investiture of some sort. That quote is from super early Scadrial also, so an image of a Taldain warrior may have looked like gold skin, but it could have been armor or sand mastery 

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:21 PM, 2spooky4myshirt said:

The only example of gold skin I remember are the Iriali, but unless they have some hidden power and a strong connection to autonomy I don't see why they would form an army for her, or why that army would be a great threat.

I'm assuming its a RAFO with yet another planet and power system Autonomy has under her power. But I'm still throwing the question here in the hopes a better theorist noticed something I didn't.

There autonomy versions of the fused . We all ready know that autonomy has cognitive shadows under her command. My guess there bodies are artificial probably made out of trellium or one of its alloys. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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On 11/25/2022 at 0:10 PM, Kitch said:

 

I'm of the same opinion. I don't think men of gold necessarily means literally gold skin. Just gold armor or investiture of some sort. That quote is from super early Scadrial also, so an image of a Taldain warrior may have looked like gold skin, but it could have been armor or sand mastery 

 I actually have a sort of mixed idea,  I think there are sort of robots or more accurately a cognitive shadow connected to A kind of robotic or perhaps  Animated metal body. I suspect the metal is trellium or one of its alloys. 

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I have this bit of theory that they are in some way related to the Shades on Threnody. Autonomy has figured out a way to pin their soul back to a body, but because of the magic system on Threnody, the Shade has almost no memory of their former life, so Autonomy is able to manipulate them to her will easily by investing them with some of her power.

 

Just a thought, but hey, that's what theorizing I'd for, right?

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