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Religious consequences[DISCUSS]


Oltux72

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On 11/22/2022 at 10:33 AM, bmcclure7 said:

 I mean survivorism is the main religion already.    And it was already experiencing a revival or sorts after the discovery of the bands. 

With harmonium been so important I suspect that pathism will also continue  bestrong.

 Sliverisum really depends On marsh and harmony.  

 

As for atheism, If anyone in the cosmere is an atheist it's because they're deluded or just ignorant. 

No actually. Shards while godlike are still not actually God. Even adonalsium isn't technically God . For all we know investiture gained sentiance and became adonalsium. 

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3 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

No actually. Shards while godlike are still not actually God. Even adonalsium isn't technically God . For all we know investiture gained sentiance and became adonalsium. 

Not technically god? How? What are you even talking  about? I don't see how been sentient investure makes him any less God? 

He created the universe and had (and it can be argued still has) authority over it. It that not technically God there your not technically human. 

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1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not technically god? How? What are you even talking  about? I don't see how been sentient investure makes him any less God? 

He created the universe and had (and it can be argued still has) authority over it. It that not technically God there your not technically human. 

It's not god since it didn't create the universe, it was created then gained sentiance . Matter coalesced to form stars and planets , investiture coalesced to form adonalsium 

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15 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

It's not god since it didn't create the universe, it was created then gained sentiance . Matter coalesced to form stars and planets , investiture coalesced to form adonalsium 

It did create the universe. That has been said many times.  We have no reason to believe that Adonalsium was ever created.  All mater and energy was created from investure that has been said multiple times and is why shards exist every where at once.  

I still don't see how investure coalescing to be  Adonalsium makes him not God?

Also you contradict your self you just said he can't be God because he was created so can't be God (which would still make him a god at least) then you said he wasn't created but formed from coalescing investure? Which is it?

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5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

It did create the universe. That has been said many times.  We have no reason to believe that Adonalsium was ever created.  All mater and energy was created from investure that has been said multiple times and is why shards exist every where at once.  

I still don't see how investure coalescing to be  Adonalsium makes him not God?

Also you contradict your self you just said he can't be God because he was created so can't be God (which would still make him a god at least) then you said he wasn't created but formed from coalescing investure? Which is it?

Second option 

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8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It did create the universe. That has been said many times. 

That's what people in Cosmere believe in. But there are also those who believe that aethers predate Adonalsium, are independent of its creations and are equals to Adonalsium. IF Adonalsium created the univerese, than it also created aethers, as they could only came from it. If aethers did not come from Ado, and even predate it, than it couldn't create Cosmere. Who is right? 

Quote

Both less and more than a god. Silajana is one of the primal aethers. They predate Adonalsium, you know, and exist outside of his power. - Prasanva TLM

Spoiler

Questioner

Was Adonalsium the one who created the cosmere universe as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

That is widely assumed to be the case.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 

 

Bumtown1

Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

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10 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's what people in Cosmere believe in. But there are also those who believe that aethers predate Adonalsium, are independent of its creations and are equals to Adonalsium. IF Adonalsium created the univerese, than it also created aethers, as they could only came from it. If aethers did not come from Ado, and even predate it, than it couldn't create Cosmere. Who is right? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Was Adonalsium the one who created the cosmere universe as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

That is widely assumed to be the case.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 

 

Bumtown1

Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Fair point, still he would be qualified as a god if not the God.   It's really a division between monotheist or polytheist  Cosmology pre The shattering, not an atheist vs theist.  

Edited by bmcclure7
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21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

All mater and energy was created from investure that has been said multiple times and is why shards exist every where at once. 

That's not true, all matter was not made from Investiture any more than all matter in our world was made from energy. It's all the same thing.

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not true, all matter was not made from Investiture any more than all matter in our world was made from energy. It's all the same thing.

If that were true then god metals would behave like regular metals instead of breaking the laws of physics. Investure even in a material form breaks the laws if physics. While all matter may have been created from investure, invest mater and regular mater are clearly not the same thing.  

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34 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

If that were true then god metals would behave like regular metals instead of breaking the laws of physics. Investure even in a material form breaks the laws if physics. While all matter may have been created from investure, invest mater and regular mater are clearly not the same thing.  

What?

Investiture, energy and matter are completely interchangeable,

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Scadrial losing mass when people burn metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically it is, but Investiture is another dimension to matter.

Questioner

So it doesn't lose mass, it becomes Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

It becomes Investiture... Basically, when you go into the cosmere, we've got matter, we've got energy here. You've got matter, energy, and Investiture there, and you can get things out of Investiture back into matter, and stuff like that. There's always energy, there's entropy, there's always diffusement... it's basically, add to the laws of thermodynamics a third item, and that's how we word it.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5093

 

 

 

 

See also TLM page 116.

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

If that were true then god metals would behave like regular metals instead of breaking the laws of physics. Investure even in a material form breaks the laws if physics. While all matter may have been created from investure, invest mater and regular mater are clearly not the same thing.  

I would suggest that the implications of the title 'The Lost Metal' might disagree with you. A god metal was split in a science lab into its constituent parts to produce what might be called ... two lost metals while a kandra gives a lecture about how energy, matter, and investiture all follow certain rules and can be converted into one another. 

Edited by Proletariat
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57 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

What?

Investiture, energy and matter are completely interchangeable,

  Hide contents

Questioner

Is Scadrial losing mass when people burn metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically it is, but Investiture is another dimension to matter.

Questioner

So it doesn't lose mass, it becomes Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

It becomes Investiture... Basically, when you go into the cosmere, we've got matter, we've got energy here. You've got matter, energy, and Investiture there, and you can get things out of Investiture back into matter, and stuff like that. There's always energy, there's entropy, there's always diffusement... it's basically, add to the laws of thermodynamics a third item, and that's how we word it.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5093

 

 

 

 

See also TLM page 116.

  Investiture can become mater or energy in the cosmere that not the same thing as being interchangeable.  

White sand can't be charged be Scadrial's sun, a radiant cant power surges with a lamp, metal doesn't cut the soul. Normal  Mater and energy may have come from investure but now clear they are not the same. 

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3 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I would suggest that the implications of the title 'The Lost Metal' might disagree with you. A god metal was split in a science lab into its constituent parts to produce what might be called ... two lost metals while a kandra gives a lecture about how energy, matter, and investiture all follow certain rules and can be converted into one another. 

 They can be converted one from another. That doesn't mean they're the same thing. You can soul cast water into stone That doesn't make water and stone the same thing. But as that scene proves they are not the same thing.   Rubbing natural metals together Doesn't produce nuclear explosions, Even if one of the metals is unstable and radioactive. 

 

 Regardless it feels like we're nitpicking as I don't see how this changes anything

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3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They can be converted one from another. That doesn't mean they're the same thing.

In our universe matter is just different form of energy E=mc^2. In Cosmere, Investiture is just different form of matter and energy. That's it. They are interchangeable in the same way you can change water into the ice and into water vapor. It's still water, just in different states.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Rubbing natural metals together Doesn't produce nuclear explosions, Even if one of the metals is unstable and radioactive. 

Khem, khem - Little Boy - all it did was just send one piece of uranium block to smash with other piece and boom. And putting just enough radioactive material in one place can cause criticality, as it exceeds its critical mass. There were a lot of accidents with criticality just because someone did not follow rules and put too much plutonium/uranium in one place.

 

And again, the same thing we're talking here since last page - our laws of physics are different than cosmere one. Their laws of physics include Investiture, most people doesn't know that yet in-world.

Spoiler

Questioner

Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.

We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.

So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

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43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In our universe matter is just different form of energy E=mc^2. In Cosmere, Investiture is just different form of matter and energy. That's it. They are interchangeable in the same way you can change water into the ice and into water vapor. It's still water, just in different states.

Khem, khem - Little Boy - all it did was just send one piece of uranium block to smash with other piece and boom. And putting just enough radioactive material in one place can cause criticality, as it exceeds its critical mass. There were a lot of accidents with criticality just because someone did not follow rules and put too much plutonium/uranium in one place.

 

And again, the same thing we're talking here since last page - our laws of physics are different than cosmere one. Their laws of physics include Investiture, most people doesn't know that yet in-world.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.

We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.

So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

1.You seemed confused I'm not talking about the mist or stormlight or god metals.  Thos are just investure in a different state, but regular mater is not. Wax's experiments prove this.

 2.Think about what you're saying, if all metal is investure then all metal is God metal, obviously this is not the case.

3.  No that's not how physics works. If it was that easy to make nuclear explosions we wouldn't have needed the Manhattan project.

 

4. Neither one of the God metals is radioactive.

5. According to wax, Laws physics Within the casmere  Investure breaks the laws of physics within the cosmere as well.

6.  If regular mater,   Was just investigature in a different state,  Then it would be unaffected by temperature.  As shown by wax, investure  Does not change States Because of changes of temperature. The fact that regular mater in the cosmere does proves that it is no longer investure.  

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4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.You seemed confused I'm not talking about the mist or stormlight or god metals.  Thos are just investure in a different state, but regular mater is not. Wax's experiments prove this.

I'm talking about Investiture as a whole, matter as a whole (baryonic matter), and energy. E=mc^2. Energy can be transformed into matter - like it had happened at the very beginning of our universe, and matter can be transform into energy, like in nuclaer weapons. The same way Investiture can be transform into matter and energy. Investiture in Cosmere is just different form of energy. 

The whole planet Scadrial was literally made from investiture of two shards. Wax experiment doesn't prove what you're saying. Regular matter is different form of energy, in the same way that both regular matter and energy are different form of Investiture and opposite. Regular matter can be transfored into investiture - that's kind of what Nightblood is doing, especially at the end of Warbreaker. Shards can transform Investiture into pure regular matter and create a planet from it.

Matter is just energy. That's it. Investiture in Cosmere is also energy. You can change them into each other, but they are still the same thing, governed by the same laws of Cosmere Physics. These are the states and form I'm talking about - matter, energy, investiture. Matter can manifest in different way - like hydrogen or helium, energy can manifest as electromagnetic radiation or heat, and the same way Investiture can manifest as mist or Stormlight.

Brandon did not give us Einstein equation for the Cosmere, but it is working in the same way like E=mc^2, but includes Investiture in this equation like E=mc^2+ic^2 or whatever it would be. 

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1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm talking about Investiture as a whole, matter as a whole (baryonic matter), and energy. E=mc^2. Energy can be transformed into matter - like it had happened at the very beginning of our universe, and matter can be transform into energy, like in nuclaer weapons. The same way Investiture can be transform into matter and energy. Investiture in Cosmere is just different form of energy. 

The whole planet Scadrial was literally made from investiture of two shards. Wax experiment doesn't prove what you're saying. Regular matter is different form of energy, in the same way that both regular matter and energy are different form of Investiture and opposite. Regular matter can be transfored into investiture - that's kind of what Nightblood is doing, especially at the end of Warbreaker. Shards can transform Investiture into pure regular matter and create a planet from it.

Matter is just energy. That's it. Investiture in Cosmere is also energy. You can change them into each other, but they are still the same thing, governed by the same laws of Cosmere Physics. These are the states and form I'm talking about - matter, energy, investiture. Matter can manifest in different way - like hydrogen or helium, energy can manifest as electromagnetic radiation or heat, and the same way Investiture can manifest as mist or Stormlight.

Brandon did not give us Einstein equation for the Cosmere, but it is working in the same way like E=mc^2, but includes Investiture in this equation like E=mc^2+ic^2 or whatever it would be. 

 So I think what you are saying is that we are actually saying the same thing. Or so close to it that it doesn't matter. Am I on the right track?

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21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 So I think what you are saying is that we are actually saying the same thing. Or so close to it that it doesn't matter. Am I on the right track?

No, we're not. You are saying that matter is not interchangeable with investiture, I that because in our world matter and energy are interchangeable, in Cosmere Investiture is interchangeable with matter and energy, as investiture has the same relation with matter and energy, as matter in our world has with energy. 

Matter (all things that has mass) is form of energy. Not like water and ice - as both of them are matter. Matter can be transform into energy UNDER VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, like the one happening in nuclear fission - forcing neutrons to split enough atoms to sustain fission. Or fusion - extreme temperature and pressure forcing light elements like hydrogen to fuse together. The same way energy can be transfer into matter - the fission of two atoms heavier than iron or nickel absorbs energy and thus converts energy to mass. Even simple fire transforms matter of wood into energy of heat and light.

Now add investiture into it.  UNDER VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES Investiture can be transfer into matter (mass) - Shards creating worlds. Investiture can be transfer into energy (Breaths moving Vasher's little strawman), and both energy and matter can be transfer into investiture. Investiture is energy. The same way matter is energy. Sazed made flowers and animals out of pure investiture. Those flowers are now matter, but they can be change into investiture under very specific circumstances.

You don't need mass to make gravity, energy itself will have gravitational effect - you can just put enough energy in one place and it will form a black hole. The same way, you can put enough investiture in one place, and it will form a god metal. 

 

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 2.Think about what you're saying, if all metal is investure then all metal is God metal, obviously this is not the case.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that under very specific circumstances investiture can become just an iron bar, and the other way around. There's different from god metal which is a physical metal (as it has mass and atoms) but heavily invested.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  No that's not how physics works. If it was that easy to make nuclear explosions we wouldn't have needed the Manhattan project.

That's literarily how Little Boy bomb works. 2 pieces of uranium smashed together with explosion. That's it. They touch, and suddenly exceed critical mass, and city disappeared. But not any uranium, but enriched to ~80% U235 - that's problematic. Making bomb carried by plane is problematic. Forcing neutrons to return back to uranium instead of escaping the bomb - that is problematic. Physics of it was already known before Manhattan project, but making it real cost money.

Fat Boy worked differently, sphere of 6kg plutonium, of size right above the limit that would make it go critical, and explosives all around it. You detonate regular explosives, it compreses sphere of plutonium - it goes supercritical, and another city disappeared.

Thermonuclar bombs (fusion) works like Fat Boy, but next to the sphere of plutonium surrounded by explosives, you put deuterium (Hydrogen with neutron) and make sure, that energy released by fission, will compress hydrogen, sparking fusion.

Putting too much radioactive material (not every element works like that) in one place will make it go critical, critical mass for U235 is 52kg in a sphere of 17cm at normal density. That's a bomb. But you can't have 100% pure U235 so - that's why Manhattan project was needed.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Neither one of the God metals is radioactive.

It doesn't have to be. You don't need to convert matter into energy, as you can convert investiture contained within a god metal into energy (boom) and matter (atium + lerasium). Or that reaction works on just strong nuclear forces, or it was radioactive but radioactivity was not discovered yet - we don't know yet, but there are few options. 

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

5. According to wax, Laws physics Within the casmere  Investure breaks the laws of physics within the cosmere as well.

And Wax for sure knows ALL of Cosmere laws of physics, right? Right??
He don't even know about atoms, or protons/neutrons. Not to mention quarks or quantum physics. He has limited knowledge, and works only with what is known so far on Scadrial. Laws of physics are not absolute, they are evolving - like Newtonian gravity evolved to general relativity. I've already told you about it on previous page

Spoiler

 

 

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

6.  If regular mater,   Was just investigature in a different state,  Then it would be unaffected by temperature.  As shown by wax, investure  Does not change States Because of changes of temperature. The fact that regular mater in the cosmere does proves that it is no longer investure.  

NO IT"S NOT LIKE THAT. Matter is not a form of investiture like Ice is a form of water. That's not how it works. Think of Investiture as energy in our Universe. This is much more different than water and ice. Under specific circumstances matter can be transform into energy - like in Little Boy bomb, 1% of it's 64kg uranium core was transformed into energy. Just 1%. From matter into energy, like Einstein equation E=mc^2 predicted. That's how investiture works. Investiture is energy, but it take a loooot to change it from investiture into energy or matter, and form matter/energy into investiture. Shards can do it. Wax can't (or managed to do it once but didn't understand what had happened). It's not like you heat up piece of metal and it changes to the Msts - that's not how it works.

 

 

You just need Einstein on Scadrial to prove that Investiture and matter is just energy, which is the base of Cosmere natural world. Then Wax would conclude that laws of physics are not being broken at all.

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4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.Think about what you're saying, if all metal is investure then all metal is God metal, obviously this is not the case. 

That's like saying that if matter and energy are the same thing then all matter has to be plasma, as the only way it could take on a differnt state of matter is to lose energy. 

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13 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, we're not. You are saying that matter is not interchangeable with investiture, I that because in our world matter and energy are interchangeable, in Cosmere Investiture is interchangeable with matter and energy, as investiture has the same relation with matter and energy, as matter in our world has with energy. 

Matter (all things that has mass) is form of energy. Not like water and ice - as both of them are matter. Matter can be transform into energy UNDER VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, like the one happening in nuclear fission - forcing neutrons to split enough atoms to sustain fission. Or fusion - extreme temperature and pressure forcing light elements like hydrogen to fuse together. The same way energy can be transfer into matter - the fission of two atoms heavier than iron or nickel absorbs energy and thus converts energy to mass. Even simple fire transforms matter of wood into energy of heat and light.

Now add investiture into it.  UNDER VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES Investiture can be transfer into matter (mass) - Shards creating worlds. Investiture can be transfer into energy (Breaths moving Vasher's little strawman), and both energy and matter can be transfer into investiture. Investiture is energy. The same way matter is energy. Sazed made flowers and animals out of pure investiture. Those flowers are now matter, but they can be change into investiture under very specific circumstances.

You don't need mass to make gravity, energy itself will have gravitational effect - you can just put enough energy in one place and it will form a black hole. The same way, you can put enough investiture in one place, and it will form a god metal. 

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that under very specific circumstances investiture can become just an iron bar, and the other way around. There's different from god metal which is a physical metal (as it has mass and atoms) but heavily invested.

That's literarily how Little Boy bomb works. 2 pieces of uranium smashed together with explosion. That's it. They touch, and suddenly exceed critical mass, and city disappeared. But not any uranium, but enriched to ~80% U235 - that's problematic. Making bomb carried by plane is problematic. Forcing neutrons to return back to uranium instead of escaping the bomb - that is problematic. Physics of it was already known before Manhattan project, but making it real cost money.

Fat Boy worked differently, sphere of 6kg plutonium, of size right above the limit that would make it go critical, and explosives all around it. You detonate regular explosives, it compreses sphere of plutonium - it goes supercritical, and another city disappeared.

Thermonuclar bombs (fusion) works like Fat Boy, but next to the sphere of plutonium surrounded by explosives, you put deuterium (Hydrogen with neutron) and make sure, that energy released by fission, will compress hydrogen, sparking fusion.

Putting too much radioactive material (not every element works like that) in one place will make it go critical, critical mass for U235 is 52kg in a sphere of 17cm at normal density. That's a bomb. But you can't have 100% pure U235 so - that's why Manhattan project was needed.

It doesn't have to be. You don't need to convert matter into energy, as you can convert investiture contained within a god metal into energy (boom) and matter (atium + lerasium). Or that reaction works on just strong nuclear forces, or it was radioactive but radioactivity was not discovered yet - we don't know yet, but there are few options. 

And Wax for sure knows ALL of Cosmere laws of physics, right? Right??
He don't even know about atoms, or protons/neutrons. Not to mention quarks or quantum physics. He has limited knowledge, and works only with what is known so far on Scadrial. Laws of physics are not absolute, they are evolving - like Newtonian gravity evolved to general relativity. I've already told you about it on previous page

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

NO IT"S NOT LIKE THAT. Matter is not a form of investiture like Ice is a form of water. That's not how it works. Think of Investiture as energy in our Universe. This is much more different than water and ice. Under specific circumstances matter can be transform into energy - like in Little Boy bomb, 1% of it's 64kg uranium core was transformed into energy. Just 1%. From matter into energy, like Einstein equation E=mc^2 predicted. That's how investiture works. Investiture is energy, but it take a loooot to change it from investiture into energy or matter, and form matter/energy into investiture. Shards can do it. Wax can't (or managed to do it once but didn't understand what had happened). It's not like you heat up piece of metal and it changes to the Msts - that's not how it works.

 

 

You just need Einstein on Scadrial to prove that Investiture and matter is just energy, which is the base of Cosmere natural world. Then Wax would conclude that laws of physics are not being broken at all.

1. Ok now your change your story first you said they were the same thing now your saying one can become the other under specfic circumstances which one is it. If it the later then were in complete agreement. 

2. I am well aware that investor can change state and become matter And energy,  This is how God metels are made,  A similar (but different) process was probably used to make the planets, As I said in the comment you quoted I 100% agree with this.

3. He doesn't need to. You just need to know that your lawyers concerning how metal should work in the cosmere. 

4. You  I don't know all the natural laws  And yet if you saw something supernatural you could probably identify it as supernatural Without knowing every possible natural law that exists in our world wax is the same.

5. So basically exactly as I said more involved and simply finding 2 random pieces of uranium and rubing them together.

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12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's like saying that if matter and energy are the same thing then all matter has to be plasma, as the only way it could take on a differnt state of matter is to lose energy. 

I don't seem to understand what you are saying? Do you believe that non God metals are still investure or not? If so then by definition all metals are God metals because a God metals is what happens when you bring investure to a material state with out make it into something else. 

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Don't care about all this other bullsh*t predicated on not agreeing as what constitutes as divine and why people might not recognize it as such anyways.

On 11/21/2022 at 4:03 AM, Oltux72 said:

Let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. It took an extremely individualistic constable, whose statue the citizens of Elendel can go admire, to defend Scadrial against an alien god. After that will they still put their trust into Harmony? If not, what will they do? If gods wield the quivalent of nuclear weapons on your porch, athism will be unlikely to seem a good alternative.

So will we see a revival of activist Survivorism? Or, far fetched, Sliverism? Ideologically speaking you could point out that Rashek had sort of a point when he said that you need to break eggs to make omlette. And he kept Scadrial free of alien ship bombs.

A lot of this relies on how much the people truly know about the situation. It's not like Kelsier was any more or less effective than Harmony here. Why not stop putting trust into the Survivor? And this could be seen as Harmony getting the desired results while moving the fewest amounts of pieces. That could in fact raise esteem for him in the eyes of those who know instead. But I think people who are truly in the know don't really see Shards as gods anymore. Adonalsium is a debatable matter on the other hand that I won't get into because clearly in that way lies madness.

Edited by lacrossedeamon
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6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Ok now your change your story first you said they were the same thing now your saying one can become the other under specfic circumstances which one is it. If it the later then were in complete agreement. 

I'm not changing anything, this is just physics. Matter is energy, they are the same. They can transfer only under some circumstances. Both of these statements are true.
Energy can manifest in a different way, like kinetic energy, or heat, both of them are still energy, but if you want to transfer energy from kinetic to heat, you need f.e. friction. Energy can manifest as a matter, it is still energy, but if you want that matter to transfer into other form of energy, you need to do something to it.
Atomic nucleus is made of protons and neutrons. But, surprise, each one of them is made out of 3 quarks, they are the elementary particles. When you sum up the masses of each quarks in nucleus you get far less than the mass of the whole atom. Where is the rest of that mass? In energy. From Wikipedia:

Quote

For example, the sum of the mass of the three quarks in a nucleon is approximately 12.5 MeV/c2, which is low compared to the mass of a nucleon (approximately 938 MeV/c2).[23][24] The bottom line is that most of the mass of everyday objects comes from the interaction energy of its elementary components.

Mass is literally energy, and if you want to release energy, you need to breaks the bonds within atom, which decreases its mass. Are we gonna argue physics, because we're both not qualified to do it?

Now if you understand that matter=energy, you just need to add Investiture to it - matter=energy=Investiture - that's it. This is the composition of natural world in Cosmer. Nothing that is Investiture can't be supernatural because Investiture IS natural part of the Cosmere. People just don't know that yet.

Lift powers her surges by eating matter, Nightblood when drawn can be fed with regular matter. Because matter is investiture and these two can change matter to investiture.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. He doesn't need to. You just need to know that your lawyers concerning how metal should work in the cosmere. 

And he for sure know every law regarding metals? Right? Like for example superconductors won't break Wax's laws of physics? Wax doesn't even know what he doesn't know. He has no idea how god metals should behave, as he doesn't know any laws and equations that govern them. Wax is not qualified to say if god metals are natural or not.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. You  I don't know all the natural laws  And yet if you saw something supernatural you could probably identify it as supernatural Without knowing every possible natural law that exists in our world wax is the same.

If I saw something weird, I would think that I don't know enough to say what it was. People witnessing light pillars say it's aliens, but they just don't know it is simply natural optical atmospheric phenomena. For them it is supernatural because they don't know what it is. For Wax god metals are supernatural because he doesn't know what they are, what are their properties, how should they behave, and what are the natural laws governing them. When something breaks laws of physics it deosn't mean that it is supernatural, it means that your laws and your understanding of physics are wrong.

 

And what all of this, which is talked about for a second time here, has to do with religion after TLM? I've lost the connection.

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9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don't seem to understand what you are saying? Do you believe that non God metals are still investure or not? If so then by definition all metals are God metals because a God metals is what happens when you bring investure to a material state with out make it into something else. 

Everything is investiture, just in different states. Shardmetals just have investiture in more states. Just like how solid iron and gaseous iron are both energy, one just has more of it.

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