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Religious consequences[DISCUSS]


Oltux72

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Let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. It took an extremely individualistic constable, whose statue the citizens of Elendel can go admire, to defend Scadrial against an alien god. After that will they still put their trust into Harmony? If not, what will they do? If gods wield the quivalent of nuclear weapons on your porch, athism will be unlikely to seem a good alternative.

So will we see a revival of activist Survivorism? Or, far fetched, Sliverism? Ideologically speaking you could point out that Rashek had sort of a point when he said that you need to break eggs to make omlette. And he kept Scadrial free of alien ship bombs.

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19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. It took an extremely individualistic constable, whose statue the citizens of Elendel can go admire, to defend Scadrial against an alien god. After that will they still put their trust into Harmony? If not, what will they do? If gods wield the quivalent of nuclear weapons on your porch, athism will be unlikely to seem a good alternative.

So will we see a revival of activist Survivorism? Or, far fetched, Sliverism? Ideologically speaking you could point out that Rashek had sort of a point when he said that you need to break eggs to make omlette. And he kept Scadrial free of alien ship bombs.

 I mean survivorism is the main religion already.    And it was already experiencing a revival or sorts after the discovery of the bands. 

With harmonium been so important I suspect that pathism will also continue  bestrong.

 Sliverisum really depends On marsh and harmony.  

 

As for atheism, If anyone in the cosmere is an atheist it's because they're deluded or just ignorant. 

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56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

As for atheism, If anyone in the cosmere is an atheist it's because they're deluded or just ignorant. 

Alternatively they could just have a very exclusive definition of "god". Some people believe that title can only be given to an omnipotent and omnipresent being, and then deny that such a being exists. Thus they are atheists in the sense that they don't believe god(s) as they would define the term exist. The fact others would say that gods don't need to be omnipresent or omnipotent, but have all sorts of traits in different religions, is seen as irrelevant. The only god that's mere existence would demand worship is an all-powerful one, so anything less than that is something one can choose to worship or not regardless of philosophy.

Realize I'm summarizing arguments that have occurred on this very site that I doubt many are desirous to repeat. My point is just that there are schools of thought that allow for the existence of atheists in the Cosmere. And that's without acknowledging that many peoples in the Cosmere would probably believe in the gods without seeing a point in worshiping them. I don't know if you can call that atheism or just impiety, but its probably going to be a fairly common stance.

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14 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Alternatively they could just have a very exclusive definition of "god". Some people believe that title can only be given to an omnipotent and omnipresent being, and then deny that such a being exists. Thus they are atheists in the sense that they don't believe god(s) as they would define the term exist. The fact others would say that gods don't need to be omnipresent or omnipotent, but have all sorts of traits in different religions, is seen as irrelevant. The only god that's mere existence would demand worship is an all-powerful one, so anything less than that is something one can choose to worship or not regardless of philosophy.

Realize I'm summarizing arguments that have occurred on this very site that I doubt many are desirous to repeat. My point is just that there are schools of thought that allow for the existence of atheists in the Cosmere. And that's without acknowledging that many peoples in the Cosmere would probably believe in the gods without seeing a point in worshiping them. I don't know if you can call that atheism or just impiety, but its probably going to be a fairly common stance.

 Shards are by definition omnipotent and omnipresent.

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10 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Harmony spends the entire book blinded. Shards have died too. Not even close to omnipotent

 Shards don't die vessels die but shards don't. Yes, shards are omnipotent.  Harmony  Vision is only blocked because of another Shard who is also omnipotent.

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44 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Shards don't die vessels die but shards don't. Yes, shards are omnipotent.  Harmony  Vision is only blocked because of another Shard who is also omnipotent.

But people will only interact with vessels. Shards are just a bunch of investiture with no mind of their own, they need vessels. If shards are omnipotent, then how can there be more than one omnipotent thing? That destroys the meaning of what omnipotent is. We have also the the shards( the power) splinter after their vessels death. They become raw investiture with intent. How can omnipotence split? The Dor in elantris is a good example. It is just energy, a tool for people to use.

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19 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But people will only interact with vessels. Shards are just a bunch of investiture with no mind of their own, they need vessels. If shards are omnipotent, then how can there be more than one omnipotent thing? That destroys the meaning of what omnipotent is. We have also the the shards( the power) splinter after their vessels death. They become raw investiture with intent. How can omnipotence split? The Dor in elantris is a good example. It is just energy, a tool for people to use.

 There's nothing about omniscience that says there has to be one of them.  Obviously splinters are not omniscience  Unless they are reunited to the main shard. 

 The dor Is alive and conscious. Literally the plot of the future Elantris sequel. 

 Shards are shown to be at least partly alive yes they need a vessel  But as we have seen they can choose which vessel. 

 Besides Who cares if they interact with the vessel  And not The Shard directly I don't see how this changes anything.  

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

As for atheism, If anyone in the cosmere is an atheist it's because they're deluded or just ignorant. 

Well I for one would not call a single being in the Cosmere a God, excepting the God Beyond, though whether he would classify as 'in' the Cosmere is up for debate. 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Shards are by definition omnipotent and omnipresent.

Um, no they aren't. There are lots of things Shards can't do. Things we know they can't do. And it's not just that they won't allow themselves to do it, they just do not have the power to do so.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Shards don't die vessels die but shards don't. Yes, shards are omnipotent.  Harmony  Vision is only blocked because of another Shard who is also omnipotent.

I can name multiple shards that have died.

Ambition, Devotion, Dominion, Honor etc.

And let's not forget Adonalsium.

Additionally the shards cannot be omnipotent because they only have so much power

Spoiler

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Edited by Frustration
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15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well I for one would not call a single being in the Cosmere a God, excepting the God Beyond, though whether he would classify as 'in' the Cosmere is up for debate. 

Um, no they aren't. There are lots of things Shards can't do. Things we know they can't do. And it's not just that they won't allow themselves to do it, they just do not have the power to do so.

I can name multiple shards that have died.

Ambition, Devotion, Dominion, Honor etc.

And let's not forget Adonalsium.

1.  Strongly disagree, At the The shards collectively should be considered God. Even if you don't think the individual chards or vessels are. In my opinion though you can make an argument that even a splinter is a god  With a lower case g.

 

2. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean you are not omnipotent. We just need to look to our real world religions for confirmation of this.  The Abraham at God is considered to be omnipotent  Yet there are plenty of things that he specifically says he can't do. 

 

So long as the reason a being can't do something is not "I lack the power"  Then there is no violation of omnipotent.  

 

  Technically Adonalaium didn't die he was divided same with all those shards.   His body is at the very least still alive Or else invest arts would be impossible. The universe might not exist at all considering all matters just another form of investiture.

And even if he did, There is no specific rule that says God can't die. It really depends on what kind of You are talking about. I can think of lots of religions were gods can and do die all the time. 

 

 The wabs are inconsistent on this point. There are other wabs where Brandon clearly says that investigator is infinite. What he probably means there is that usable investigator Is finite.

Edited by bmcclure7
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1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

So long as the reason a being can't do something is not "I lack the power"  Then there is no violation of omnipotent.

They do lack the power

They don't even have infinite investiture how are they omnipotent?

Spoiler

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Technically Adonalaium didn't die he was divided same with all those shards.  And even if he did, There is no specific rule that says God can't die. It really depends on what kind of You are talking about. I can think of lots of religions were gods can and do die all the time. 

Yes, but if you believe only an Abrahamic God can be a God, then you can reject all of the shards, and Adonalsium as Gods.

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They do lack the power

They don't even have infinite investiture how are they omnipotent?

  Reveal hidden contents

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Yes, but if you believe only an Abrahamic God can be a God, then you can reject all of the shards, and Adonalsium as Gods.

1.  I have edited my earlier comment to addresses this.  Yes, investor is infinite Usable investiture is finite.

2.  I would strongly disagree on your view of Abrahamic God.  If you're looking for an exclusively Abrahamic and interpretation of God then your answer is adonalsium.

3.  Again adonalsium I'm is not dead just divided.  And even if he was I don't see how that makes a difference. Believing that God is dead by definition makes you a non atheist.

4. It doesn't really matter,  Is who said anything  About exclusively Abrahamic religions

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2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. It doesn't really matter,  Is who said anything  About exclusively Abrahamic religions

You are by saying that anyone who doesn't accept the shards is an idiot.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  I have edited my earlier comment to addresses this.  Yes, investor is infinite Usable investiture is finite.

1. I know of no such WoB, could you please provide it?

2. Even if that is true that means that there is a limit to a shards power and they are not omnipotent. 

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45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You are by saying that anyone who doesn't accept the shards is an idiot.

1. I know of no such WoB, could you please provide it?

2. Even if that is true that means that there is a limit to a shards power and they are not omnipotent. 

1.  I said ignorant or self deluded not  An idiot. There's a big difference, In fact evidence suggests that the smarter you are the more likely you are to be self deluded. It's easier to think up Lies for yourself if you're more intelligent.  Therefore you're lies sound more convincing to yourself.

 

2.  Even if I did say that what does that have to do with the Abrahamic religions?

 

3.  I'll see if I can find them and post them.

 

4.  There is no limit to a shard's power,  There's just a limit to how much investures currently in the physical realm. 

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This is moving towards an argument of definitions, which rarely end. To refocus a little, the point of this thread is to discuss what the people in-world might start to believe as a result of the events in TLM. First thing I will point out is that we are not in the Cosmere spoilers section. Second, the fact this debate is happening among us is, if nothing else, and indication that such a debate could be had in-world, or at least one similar to it. I could see the sides taken in this discussion being reflective of positions different Scadrians take. What makes this interesting is that this is all done without denying the existence of Harmony. Rather than narrow the religious diversity of Scadrial, the events that happened in TLM will likely only increase the breadth of religious beliefs. This is assuming, of course, that the circumstances around TLM become common knowledge, which I kind of doubt they will. But whether or not they do, I can definitely see the piety of Survivorists increasing. For one, it seems Kel has used that religion so seed thinking that advances his goals. To be more specific, the tenet of survival when faced with conflict leads to innovation. I can see how that would be appealing in a world that seems to grow more dangerous by the day. And if the whole business with Trell/Autonomy becomes public knowledge, well the original Survivor stood against a god, why should his followers not do the same?

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  There is no limit to a shard's power,  There's just a limit to how much investures currently in the physical realm. 

There is virtually no investiture in the Physical realm.

Brandon has made it very clear that Shards only have so much power, now it's 1/16 of all the investiture in the Cosmere, which is a non-insignificant amount. But it is limited.

Spoiler

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

  1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

  2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

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Folks, each of these posts are reading more and more aggressive. I doubt that’s what y’all intend, but things tend to default to a negative light over a virtual medium. I doubt either of you guys  intend to have this be an argument. I totally think the both of you want to get closer to the truth and to learn new stuff. However, I think it’s quite likely that you are riling each other up. Are y’all good? Is everyone in this situation chill with the other?

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The shards, their splinters, and the aethers are all real and worshipped, but them being real doesn't mean someone in the Cosmere has to regard them as a god. I mean, the Horneaters see Hoid, the Sleepless, and all the spren as gods whereas Jasnah interacts with the same beings without worship as she believes they exist she just doesn't see them as god. As 'god' is a term with different definitions neither set of ideas is truly falsifiable.

On topic I think Pathism will probably experience upheaval as Harmony further enters into Discord however, because so much of it is based on having a direct line of connection through the spike and the kandra. As Sazed changes, then his worshippers will also start changing and potentially in ways they don't like. I wouldn't be surprised if there's mass resignations from the faith if people start acting a bit like the koloss.

 

Edited by Proletariat
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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

There is virtually no investiture in the Physical realm.

Brandon has made it very clear that Shards only have so much power, now it's 1/16 of all the investiture in the Cosmere, which is a non-insignificant amount. But it is limited.

  Hide contents

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

  1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

  2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

 I don't see how this contradicts anything I'm saying. I never said matter energy were unlimited in the cosmere.

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2 hours ago, Proletariat said:

The shards, their splinters, and the aethers are all real and worshipped, but them being real doesn't mean someone in the Cosmere has to regard them as a god. I mean, the Horneaters see Hoid, the Sleepless, and all the spren as gods whereas Jasnah interacts with the same beings without worship as she believes they exist she just doesn't see them as god. As 'god' is a term with different definitions neither set of ideas is truly falsifiable.

On topic I think Pathism will probably experience upheaval as Harmony further enters into Discord however, because so much of it is based on having a direct line of connection through the spike and the kandra. As Sazed changes, then his worshippers will also start changing and potentially in ways they don't like. I wouldn't be surprised if there's mass resignations from the faith if people start acting a bit like the koloss.

 

 Maybe but he hasn't become discord yet I don't think he will tell at least era 2.  I can't help but wonder if Wayne will become a Saint of sorts. They already have him in the Meadow of rebirth.  That place has pretty important religious significance already. 

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5 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

This is moving towards an argument of definitions, which rarely end. To refocus a little, the point of this thread is to discuss what the people in-world might start to believe as a result of the events in TLM. First thing I will point out is that we are not in the Cosmere spoilers section. Second, the fact this debate is happening among us is, if nothing else, and indication that such a debate could be had in-world, or at least one similar to it. I could see the sides taken in this discussion being reflective of positions different Scadrians take. What makes this interesting is that this is all done without denying the existence of Harmony. Rather than narrow the religious diversity of Scadrial, the events that happened in TLM will likely only increase the breadth of religious beliefs. This is assuming, of course, that the circumstances around TLM become common knowledge, which I kind of doubt they will. But whether or not they do, I can definitely see the piety of Survivorists increasing. For one, it seems Kel has used that religion so seed thinking that advances his goals. To be more specific, the tenet of survival when faced with conflict leads to innovation. I can see how that would be appealing in a world that seems to grow more dangerous by the day. And if the whole business with Trell/Autonomy becomes public knowledge, well the original Survivor stood against a god, why should his followers not do the same?

 It should be noted that, 

1.  I never said atheism wouldn't exist,  Only they would probably be very uncommon because of the amount of brain gymnastics needed to make it work in the cosmere.

2.  Believing that a particular God exist is not the same as worshipping him.  As we can see with survivor vs pathism.  Both the survivors and the pathists acknowledge that the other ones God exist they just don't worship them.

 

 I agree that ultimately this will only increase religious  Diversity.

 

The wonder if trellism will continue to be something in era. With trell and most of her followers dead An autonomy gone from the system for now I kind of want to say That the Cult will die off.  But then I get the feeling that there gonna be important in  Era 3, Still maybe a few her Followers will manage to survive and keep the faith till her return.  Or maybe she will start from scratch again in 50 to 70 years.

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9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It should be noted that, 

1.  I never said atheism wouldn't exist,  Only they would probably be very uncommon because of the amount of brain gymnastics needed to make it work in the cosmere.

2.  Believing that a particular God exist is not the same as worshipping him.  As we can see with survivor vs pathism.  Both the survivors and the pathists acknowledge that the other ones God exist they just don't worship them.

I think this misses what atheism is. The key feature of atheism is rejection of the existence of god/s rather than a refusal to admit the existence of things that are worshipped as god/s. It's a subtle but important distinction. There are spiritual doctrines around a lot of the wildlife amongst First Nations peoples here, for example, and I don't share those spiritual beliefs but I obviously do think those animals exist. Similarly I think people called Jesus and Muhammad probably existed in some form (not that their existence itself is relevant), but don't think they were divine.

Given how flawed the various 'gods' are (the shards, kelsier, the returned, the heralds the sleepless, the spren, the aethers, the kandra) I would suggest that becoming more cosmere aware would entail being more skeptical of these being divine. I mean most of them are just really invested people who were born human, and it doesn't require much brain gymnastics to not see them as gods. I'm pretty confident that Hoid is an atheist, since he certainly sees most of the gods more as peers or obstacles. And worshippers of the God Beyond probably have the same conclusion - that they believe in an actual god whereas these are just invested people, or bits of investiture that's been broken off and gotten a little bit of sentience.

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2 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I think this misses what atheism is. The key feature of atheism is rejection of the existence of god/s rather than a refusal to admit the existence of things that are worshipped as god/s. It's a subtle but important distinction. There are spiritual doctrines around a lot of the wildlife amongst First Nations peoples here, for example, and I don't share those spiritual beliefs but I obviously do think those animals exist. Similarly I think people called Jesus and Muhammad probably existed in some form (not that their existence itself is relevant), but don't think they were divine.

Given how flawed the various 'gods' are (the shards, kelsier, the returned, the heralds the sleepless, the spren, the aethers, the kandra) I would suggest that becoming more cosmere aware would entail being more skeptical of these being divine. I mean most of them are just really invested people who were born human, and it doesn't require much brain gymnastics to not see them as gods. I'm pretty confident that Hoid is an atheist, since he certainly sees most of the gods more as peers or obstacles. And worshippers of the God Beyond probably have the same conclusion - that they believe in an actual god whereas these are just invested people, or bits of investiture that's been broken off and gotten a little bit of sentience.

 1. Hoid  Has said that he is not an atheist. And even challenges Jasnah on it. 

2. I think you're confusing the meaning of the word God.  God is a title for the supreme supernatural authority. Much like the title king  Is the supreme natural authority.  

 

 Atheism, Denies supernatural authority by  Denying  The existence of the supernatural. You may believe in the exists of animals, Jesus and Mohamad but  You don't believe there is anything supernatural about them.

The Cosmere is a place with the existence of the supernatural is easy to demonstrate and prove.

So atheism As a means to deny Supernatural authority doesn't quite make sense with their reality. It's not to say it's not possible, Flat Earther exist afteral,  But I find it unlikely that it will ever become a norm or widespread.

 

3.This doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to deny supernatural authority. Is these art strictly atheism. 

 4.Why exactly would becoming more cosmere aware make you more skeptical of the gods? Because they're flawed?  That's a very Abrahamic perspective. Apart from hoid, other preshatering imortals and the shards themselves There's no reason for anyone in the Cosmere to have this perspective. 

 

 Is it because  Some of the vessels We're original human?  Again a very Abrahamic perspective.  There are plenty of religions where great heroes become gods. 

 And even if you take  The perspective that a God must have  Not have a human origin. There was still the shards themselves,  Not to mention the aethers.

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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17 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Rather than narrow the religious diversity of Scadrial, the events that happened in TLM will likely only increase the breadth of religious beliefs.

But probably not uniformly. And that makes the question interesting.

17 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

This is assuming, of course, that the circumstances around TLM become common knowledge, which I kind of doubt they will.

They set up a statue of Wayne in the same park as the statues of Vin and Elend. That requires a public justification.
Secondly the governor is highly incentiviced to paint himself as doing the will of god.

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1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

But probably not uniformly. And that makes the question interesting.

They set up a statue of Wayne in the same park as the statues of Vin and Elend. That requires a public justification.
Secondly the governor is highly incentiviced to paint himself as doing the will of god.

 Also I'm sure a word will get out that there was a faceless immortal in the aversion of the White House.  That pretty much means that most people will assume that harmony was involved somehow. 

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