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Why did the men of gold and red turn back?


Oltux72

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We see Marasi throw a time grenade on them and destroy the artificial perpendicularity. But that does not explain their withdrawl. It merely delays them and denies them their chosen route. Scadrial has at least one natural perpendicularity. They had a choice between just going home, which is a long march, and going to that perpendicularity, which is nearby. Kelsier implied to Harmony that he made them turn around. How? At first they did not have the people to deal with the crisis and a few weeks later they can win a battle in Shadesmar? What happened?

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20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We see Marasi throw a time grenade on them and destroy the artificial perpendicularity. But that does not explain their withdrawl. It merely delays them and denies them their chosen route. Scadrial has at least one natural perpendicularity. They had a choice between just going home, which is a long march, and going to that perpendicularity, which is nearby. Kelsier implied to Harmony that he made them turn around. How? At first they did not have the people to deal with the crisis and a few weeks later they can win a battle in Shadesmar? What happened?

 Because of   Autonomy's intent,  They had proven themselves. 

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14 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The only reasonable option I see is that it was Autonomy's decision - people of Scadrial showed that they can counter her plots, and attacking them anyway would be acting against her Intent

That is pretty close to circular reasoning. They passed one test, so she does not test them fully? Then why send that army in the first place?

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20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is pretty close to circular reasoning. They passed one test, so she does not test them fully? Then why send that army in the first place?

Because she was going to kill them all if they couldn't 'Pass the Test', it might not have been voluntary on Autonomy's part, as Wayne did see that the respect was begrudging.

As Ati can attest to, a Vessel can have their decisions and personality heavily altered by their Shard should they not be inclined to it's intent, and Autonomy Bavadin seems like a bit of a control freak, so maybe the Shard itself decided 'Damn these guys are really cool by deciding their own fates and stuff, welp no need for me to be here'.

Edited by JustQuestin2004
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On 11/21/2022 at 4:22 PM, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier implied to Harmony that he made them turn around.

Is there a chance this is connected to Autonomy having a powerful like of/respect for Kelsier? If there was one person on Scadrial who could convince Autonomy to turn around, especially in light of the Set failing her, the artificial perpendicularity being drained, and the harmonium bomb being neutralised, I feel it would probably be Kelsier.

Edited to add: I feel he would have to take at least partial responsibility for the Scadrian defense, which I suppose is true insofar as the Ghostbloods count, but it might be sufficient to satisfy Autonomy and her Intent.

Would've used the Capaldi gif but unfortunately Google fails me today:

Spoiler

hbImTXa.gif

 

Edited by Kasimir
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22 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Is there a chance this is connected to Autonomy having a powerful like of/respect for Kelsier? If there was one person on Scadrial who could convince Autonomy to turn around, especially in light of the Set failing her, the artificial perpendicularity being drained, and the harmonium bomb being neutralised, I feel it would probably be Kelsier.

Edited to add: I feel he would have to take at least partial responsibility for the Scadrian defense, which I suppose is true insofar as the Ghostbloods count, but it might be sufficient to satisfy Autonomy and her Intent.

Would've used the Capaldi gif but unfortunately Google fails me today:

  Reveal hidden contents

hbImTXa.gif

 

Perhaps...

Spoiler

Questioner

Whether she has or not, what is her opinion of Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

You’re asking, directly Autonomy, not one of her Avatars? Directly, Autonomy likes Kelsier and respects Kelsier. Autonomy is a fan, shall we say.

 

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1 minute ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Perhaps...

  Hide contents

Questioner

Whether she has or not, what is her opinion of Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

You’re asking, directly Autonomy, not one of her Avatars? Directly, Autonomy likes Kelsier and respects Kelsier. Autonomy is a fan, shall we say.

 

That WoB is what I had in mind, yes. I find it plausible that Autonomy was induced to withdraw because the Scadrians had proved themselves, but I also find it plausible that Kelsier did in fact have a chat with her and might have been one of several considerations.

Incidentally, I do wonder if one reason Harmony was so keen on keeping Kelsier out of the loop was that he wasn't unaware of what you spoilered, and that was in fact part of the reason for distrust. What happens if she offers him a seat at the table?

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Just now, Kasimir said:

That WoB is what I had in mind, yes. I find it plausible that Autonomy was induced to withdraw because the Scadrians had proved themselves, but I also find it plausible that Kelsier did in fact have a chat with her and might have been one of several considerations.

Incidentally, I do wonder if one reason Harmony was so keen on keeping Kelsier out of the loop was that he wasn't unaware of what you spoilered, and that was in fact part of the reason for distrust. What happens if she offers him a seat at the table?

You mean, what if Autonomy decides to offer Kelsier Godlike powers? Not as an Avatar because losing your individuality would make that a huge downside for a guy like Kelsier.

Or maybe just more general support? 

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Just now, JustQuestin2004 said:

You mean, what if Autonomy decides to offer Kelsier Godlike powers? Not as an Avatar because losing your individuality would make that a huge downside for a guy like Kelsier.

Or maybe just more general support? 

Leaning towards the latter, but potentially more powers as well. If Autonomy likes and respects Kelsier, and Autonomy can offer Kelsier some version of what he wants, what happens then? Does Kelsier take that as some way of protecting the people of Scadrial? Do they cut a deal?

I think we don't see that as plausible for Kelsier at this juncture, or I would lean so, but I wonder if Harmony trusted Kelsier as much on this score or just had some kind of niggling fear about it. There's the comment about Autonomy also liking Wax, but Harmony got there first in a way he can't solidly say is true for Kelsier, and Kelsier as you point out has a stronger individual/independent streak than Wax does.

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Didn’t team Marasi burn all the investiture so the doorway was no longer open? The Metalborn basically unplugged the thing while the gold soldiers were frozen in time. 

As well, the plan required a lot of metalborn in one place, and Marasi got the people out of the bunker. And lastly, there seemed to be a timing component as well that may have passed by now. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I feel like there might be a Realmatic reason for Autonomy's perpendicularity being able to form and subsequently becoming unstable/unusable. And I know I'm going to bungle this, so I totally expect some feedback. 

think that Autonomy was able to build a perpendicularity where the "refugees" were because the refugees thought the world ended. They were being told that the world ended and shown "proof" that Scadrial was basically toast. Their perception of what the world actually was, affected the cognitive realm in such a way that it weakened Harmony's connection to that specific area. 

Autonomy was then able to build a perpendicularity in that spot as that was a "hole" in the planet at that location in the cognitive realm.

And when the "refugees" used up the investiture and subsequently saved, that hole closed up. The army literally had no where to go, especially after being trapped in one of Marasi's bubbles.

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Autonomy road to conquest was cut and destroy, and all of her inside spies were defeated. She could try to send them to the other perpendicularity (which is guarded by the kolosses) but that's outside the Valley and far away. She was already overinvested on Scadrial, pushing for more would force her to invest even more, when Harmony was back in power, and aware of her plans. Now he could easly prepare defence of the planet on favorable mountainous ground, while her army was still stuck in the bubble. Strategically she lost that fight, and trying to push one more time, without any support from the inside, would be disastrous. She needs to withdraw and regroup to make new plans. Moreover people of Scadial just show that they want to be independent from her which aligns with her intent - trying to kill them might hurt Autonomy.

And how even her army of gold and red even works? Who or what are they? Are the Cognitive Shadows like Fused that required body or something different? Do they need supplies like food or investiture? It simply might be that her army could not work on any other position without her perpendicularity - I don't think we have enough information about what was that army.

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