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So how many magic systems does roshar have?


Rg2045

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So we know scandrial is the more earth like inventions. And roshar is more magic based. 
we also know scandrial has 3 maybe 4 magic systems that they use. 
we also know that roshar, wait how many magic systems? 
ok so there is two ways to count magic systems. 
the KR are 1 system or 10 different systems. Each with their own side abilities too. 
then there’s the old magic, and voidbinding,(does it have 9 or 10 I forgot) 

 

so that brings us to 20 give or take 1. 
then there’s those magic fish, and the Larkin, and great shells, idk if that’s three or 1 or something else. And then there’s fabrials both slavery and voluntary fabrials. 
and possibly dancing magic in shinovar. 
the unmade. And possibly a cultivation magic system that we have yet to see. 

Each bondsmith honestly. Then singers transforming is that a magic system? 
so what’s yalls thoughts? I think I give up on exact count because honestly roshar is truly a special place, 

it’s no wonder that they came up with anti light first.  

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Yeah Roshar sure is something special, anyway I'll give my opinion on what exactly counts as a 'Magic System' on Roshar, feel free to disagree.

What I Think Isn't A Magic System

The Fabrials aren't so much a magic system as they are taking advantage of the nature of Roshar. It's like humans on Earth taking advantage of natural phenomena for our own benefit, such as Hydroelectric dams using the motion generated by flowing rivers to make electricity, this isn't supernatural it's just the result of science making use of nature's process's. Same thing with Fabrial's, taking advantage of natural things (Spren) for science (Fabrials). Not really a Magic System, just science.

The 'Magic Fish' from Purelake are things we don't know much about, so we couldn't definitively say whether that counts due to a lack of information.

Same with the 'Dancing Magic' in Shinovar.

The Larkin's 'Investivore' abilities (their ability to feed on Investiture) and the Greatshells abnormal size is due to natural creatures adapting to a highly Invested environment. Like how plants and creatures in our world adapt to new environments to help with survival. Not quite magic, just nature being assisted by Investiture.

The Old Magic is very weird, I'd personally say that it's more like Divine Intervention from the Nightwatcher and occasionally Cultivation. It doesn't seem to have any 'rules' that most 'Brandon' Magic Systems have and the Nightwatcher and Cultivation are the only one's who use it. This appear to be Cultivation's 'Magic System'.

The Unmade are Spren that have been heavily altered and corrupted by Odium for his own purposes, like Old Magic this is more like Divine Intervention than any kind of Magic System.

What I Think Is A Magic System

The Knights Radiants use Surgebinding, which despite it's many varying abilities and Orders, is all just parts of Surgebinding. To say otherwise would be like calling each Allomantic ability it's own magic system, which isn't very accurate. Each of the Bondsmith's abilities, despite how ridiculously OP they are, all fall under the umbrella of Surgebinding.

Voidbinding is Odium's variation of Surgebinding for his Fused to use, it lacks the Surge of Adhesion and has some small differences in how it functions like how each of the 9 Fused Brands (their version of Orders) can only use a single Surge.

The Singer's ability to assume different Forms via forming a Bond with certain types of Spren and stepping into a Storm seems too intricate to me to be just a natural phenomenon caused by natural adaptions to Investiture. I believe that this counts as a Magic System. 

 

And that's all. As far as I'm concerned Roshar has 3 'Magic Systems' with everything else being made possible by Roshar's special nature.

It's all very subjective so do take this with a grain of salt.

 

Edited by JustQuestin2004
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7 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

so that brings us to 20 give or take 1.

Under that premise you need to count each kind of Misting and Fering separately

7 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

 then there’s those magic fish, and the Larkin, and great shells, idk if that’s three or 1 or something else. And then there’s fabrials both slavery and voluntary fabrials. 
and possibly dancing magic in shinovar. 
the unmade. And possibly a cultivation magic system that we have yet to see.

  • Surgebinding: Knights Radiant, Fused, Yelig Nar, some fabrials, (Singer rhythm magic?)
  • Voidbinding: Renarin and other bondees of enlightened spren
  • Regals
  • Unmade (even Yelig Nar offers additional abilities - turning your body into crystal)
  • abilities lesser spren offer: Rosharan animals & some fabrials
  • Stormfather
  • Urithiru or rather the Sibling
  • possibly Cultivations ten abilities
  • abilities of lesser voidspren: the detector voidspren
  • Purelake fish
  • Thunderclasts
  • Sleepless
  • Aimians
  • Iriali
  • Horneater magic
5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

The Larkin's 'Investivore' abilities (their ability to feed on Investiture) and the Greatshells abnormal size is due to natural creatures adapting to a highly Invested environment. Like how plants and creatures in our world adapt to new environments to help with survival. Not quite magic, just nature being assisted by Investiture.

No. They clearly have a bond to luckspren. And on Scadrial you call the people who do the same thing Ferings.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No. They clearly have a bond to luckspren. And on Scadrial you call the people who do the same thing Ferings.

Oh yeah that's right, Natural Nahel Bonds, not just Investiture. My bad.

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

possibly Cultivations ten abilities

I'm pretty sure Cultivation doesn't actually have her own form of Surgebinding and just shares regular Surgebinding with Honor.

 

Also what do you define as a 'Magic System'?

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  • Surgebinding.
  • Voidbinding.
  • Fabrials.
  • Singer Gemheart bonds with subspren.

For me a magic system is a grouping of closely related powers that share similarities in their function and/or how they are obtained, and are used by sapient beings. 
It doesn’t cover everything perfectly but neither do concepts like species.
 

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Cultivation magic

Honor magic

Odium magic

Old World magic

If you go from a Scadrial perspective there could be a magic system for each god and a combined:

Honor magic - surgebinding?

Cultivation magic - old magic?

Odium magic - void binding?

Honor / Cultivation magic - surgebinding?

Then is Odium connected enough to the system/planet to combine with the other two? If so there is also:

Honor / Odium magic

Cultivation / Odium magic

Honor / Cultivation / Odium magic

So 4 - 7 magic systems, no idea what the last three could be, if they even exist. 

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A fun way to answer this question is just to say "one."  All rosharan magic systems depend on bonds made by spren.  Radiants are just the result of a group of spren bound in a particular way.  Fabrails are a different one.  Even the old magic and the fused are the result of people connecting to spren and shards respectively. 

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On 11/25/2022 at 1:42 AM, Thanatos said:

I dont think the shards can mix like that unless its spren that are one half shard1 investiture and the other half shard2 investiture etc etc. 

Dont think there are such spren.

Old magic predates the Shattering, one being the high storms/stormlight.

Unsure if it predates the shattering, but it definitely predates the KR 

also for everyone else that questions if KR are 10 or 1 magic systems I’m inclined to consider them 10 because their is only one unmade that destroys your soul if used improperly, that has all of them. Like you can’t be a Windrunner with division. 
whereas in mistborn 

A mistborn is litterally part of the magic system. And the others are just dilutions. 
same with other scandrial magics. 
also I really liked the discussion. Definitely makes sense where y’all are coming from 

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On 25.11.2022 at 3:09 AM, Karger said:

A fun way to answer this question is just to say "one."  All rosharan magic systems depend on bonds made by spren.

I am sorry, but that is just factually incorrect

  • the Stormfather
  • the Voidspren acting as Seekers
  • Urithiru
  • Midnight Mother

 

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2 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Apologies, I don't mean to come across as rude, but aren't all four of these spren themselves?

They are, but they are not bonded. If you are a Knight Radiant, the Surges you wield do not come second hand from your Spren. Sylphrena, for example, cannot lash objects to transport them or turn herself into a blade. Your spiritweb is altered in a way that allows you to use Surges and other powers.
Yet there are also Spren who have other powers of their own.

That is, even if you are willing to explain away the Fused as a bond to Odium, there are unbonded entities that have powers.

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14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are, but they are not bonded. If you are a Knight Radiant, the Surges you wield do not come second hand from your Spren. Sylphrena, for example, cannot lash objects to transport them or turn herself into a blade. Your spiritweb is altered in a way that allows you to use Surges and other powers.
Yet there are also Spren who have other powers of their own.

That is, even if you are willing to explain away the Fused as a bond to Odium, there are unbonded entities that have powers.

Gotcha - wasn't sure if you were referring to the bond or the spren part of the statement. 

I suppose it would be accurate to say it's 'one' magic system if you phrased it more like this; All Rosharan magics are linked to the spren, with mortals being able to access this magic via a bond with certain spren. 

But if we're saying that, I suppose you could also say that all cosmere magic is essentially one magic system, as every one relies on utilising Investiture through Intent and Command (since the spren are basically just chunks of Investiture).

Edited by Werewolff Studios
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10 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Gotcha - wasn't sure if you were referring to the bond or the spren part of the statement. 

I suppose it would be accurate to say it's 'one' magic system if you phrased it more like this; All Rosharan magics are linked to the spren, with mortals being able to access this magic via a bond with certain spren.

I am afraid I need to remind you that the original method to access Surgebinding were the Honorblades and that the Heralds had bodies with magical capabilities long before Spren were involved.

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34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I need to remind you that the original method to access Surgebinding were the Honorblades and that the Heralds had bodies with magical capabilities long before Spren were involved.

Strictly speaking original method to access Surgebinding is something from Ashyn, possibly facilitated by Odium and/or some Dawnshard. They did wield Surges back then and destroyed Ashyn with them.

Honorblades would be the second method then.

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13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I need to remind you that the original method to access Surgebinding were the Honorblades and that the Heralds had bodies with magical capabilities long before Spren were involved.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Strictly speaking original method to access Surgebinding is something from Ashyn, possibly facilitated by Odium and/or some Dawnshard. They did wield Surges back then and destroyed Ashyn with them.

Honorblades would be the second method then.

Thanks for reminding me! Totally forget about both of these. 

 

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On 7.12.2022 at 10:17 AM, therunner said:

Strictly speaking original method to access Surgebinding is something from Ashyn, possibly facilitated by Odium and/or some Dawnshard. They did wield Surges back then and destroyed Ashyn with them.

I would doubt that. It is quite clear that the Surges are original to the Rosharan system. Whatever the human immigrants to Ashyn had, it probably wasn't Surgebinding. It was some other system. Yes, the Eila Stele spoke of Surges. But that is meaningless. They knew nothing else.

On 7.12.2022 at 10:17 AM, therunner said:

Honorblades would be the second method then.

No. We have seen this music method of using the Surges the Singers are still using. And there is obviously the Stormfather. And we have no idea how old Regals are. And, obviously, the Singers and animals of Roshar themselves. The reduction of mass Chasmfiends and other animals show must be old.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I would doubt that. It is quite clear that the Surges are original to the Rosharan system. Whatever the human immigrants to Ashyn had, it probably wasn't Surgebinding. It was some other system. Yes, the Eila Stele spoke of Surges. But that is meaningless. They knew nothing else.

Per WoB what Ashynites had was slightly different magic system, but basically the same as Surges https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8690 , so calling it Surgebinding makes sense.
Fused also use Surges despite the details and expression being different (i.e. Surge of Transportation is the best example) and that is still Surgebinding proper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14640 ) per in-World non-Rosharan understanding.
 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No. We have seen this music method of using the Surges the Singers are still using. And there is obviously the Stormfather. And we have no idea how old Regals are. And, obviously, the Singers and animals of Roshar themselves. The reduction of mass Chasmfiends and other animals show must be old.

Fair point in the singing of Singers, that would be a method of applying Surges. However I would not classify the symbiotic relationship of lesser spren and animals the same way, that is not Invested Art per se

Edited by therunner
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Having not finished dawnshard or RoW, I think there are 7, even If I cannot pinpoint them exactly, using the mixing as before

Honor - honorblade surgebinding
Cultivation - old magic
Odium - Fused/Fused surgebinding

Honor/Cultivation - KR Surgebinding
Cultivation/Odium - Regals
Honor/Odium - ?

All three - ?

My 2 cents, based on what we know from 1/2 shardworlds.

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Is Nahel Bond a magic system? Surgebinding comes from Nahel Bond but not everything is that dramatic - bonds between sprens and chasmfiends for example. Or bonds between sprens and Singers. Are those bonds one magic system? Or are bonds just natural phenomena, that sometimes results in magical Surgebinding. I would classify this more as an natural phenomena rather than magic system.
Fabrials are technological recreation of the effects of natural bonds, using the same principles - not a magic system in my opinion.

  1. Surgebinding is a magic system, and it's used by Heralds, Radiants, and Fused. It's manipulation of basic physical forces.
  2. Voidbinding would be a magic system - however it works, or it's defined, it's different enough to be seperate system.
  3. Old magic too - quite soft magic system. Manipulation of spiritual web.

I don't know If Singers bonds should be a magic system. I think not - they are bonding sprens, which is natural, and sometimes gain some limited versions of Surgebinding or Voidbinding, which itself is not its own magic system.

All the other weirdness like Fused, Heralds, Unmade, sprens etc, would be just a natural phenomena, explained by laws binding Shards and Investiture. Completely normal phenomenon.

Spoiler

Phani Kishan A no Twitter: ""Completely normal phenomenon"  https://t.co/nriOideraz" / Twitter

 

But that's all from in-world perspective. That's how they would classify this, Kriss for example. For us everything could be rightfully classify as magic system, From Shards to sprens and bonds. So that's why I would try to design in-world classification. Total 3 magic system on Roshar planetary system - Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and Old magic

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From my understanding, void binding is construed from fused and regals, though I could see it as binding with an unmade or their children. But for the most part they have the same end effects based on what I know. Manipulation of the basic rules of the world in (mostly) minor ways. Can't say more w/o putting the whole thing in spoilers.

Edited by IlstrawberrySeed
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