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F-tin’s the best


Koloss17

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2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but it doesn't exist bofore you do it, you don't feel it. You don't know what to convert.

Again, it's like trying to fit keys into a lock. Even if you don't know which key is the right one, you know that you have 16 keys and one of them will open the lock. All you need to do is test each one, which, given the nature of Investiture and the lack of needing to insert, try, and remove a literal, physical key, happens near-instantly

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The ability to convert an attribute into investiture comes from your sDNA and the metal you want to use. So yes, you can try to create pewter investiture and put it into a steelmind. Intent prohibits this. You have the intent to use a steel, but your intent to use a proper attribute isn't matched with what steel Feruchemical property is. Therefore nothing would happen. But if you intend to use steel and speed - then magic will happen and the attribute will be converted into investiture and pushed into that steelmind. You need to match the attribute you want to store with the metal's feruchemical property. But storing "something" isn't a match.

That... kind of proves my point. Your very being knows what attributes it can convert, it's literally encoded into you. You're making a few mistakes here though. If you try to force strength into a Steelmind, nothing would happen, but not because of Intent, quite the opposite. Just by trying, you're providing an Intent to do that very thing. It's the Feruchemical property of the metal that's stopping it from happening. Your body knows what attributes can and can't be converted. When you try to store something in metal, even if you don't know what it is, your body does, and it will try to convert and store those attributes. Only, depending on the metal you're trying to store in, only a single attribute will be allowed in. Thus, without knowing the attribute itself, you can still store and tap it.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes they aren't hidden outside. The room is your body, blocks are the attributes and you (in that analogy) is a will, a mind that decides what to do. You already have a pile of 17 blocks that you know to which hole they fit in, the rest is "hidden" in the room among common objects. This is to explain that you need to think about what can be stored in a metalmind and test it - trying to fit that block into the hole (metalmind). Finding a block means knowing how it looks, what shape it has etc - thinking about what can be an attribute means guessing some part of your body or its function by the name - like guessing that height can be stored. Then you test it trying to store it. But you need to know what you try to store.

That still doesn't quite make sense. As you mentioned just earlier, the body knows what can and can't be stored. There won't be any common objects in the room, only the storable attributes. The existence of an un-storable 'common object' attribute implies that you can convert anything into Investiture, and it's the metal that determines what you can store and tap - which we know isn't the case. Hence, you'd still only have attributes as objects that you can try to fit into the holes, which, like i said earlier, can be easily figured out just by trying to store everything the body knows can be stored.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Your "fixed" analogy still assumes that you know this block exists. That you touch it, you focus on it, you pick it up. But that's not what you are proposing. You propose to fit into the hole a block that doesn't exist, a block that you don't touch, you don't see, you don't know that is in your room. But this is something that you need to know, as you have to pick it up with your hands and push it into the hole. Without knowing about it, you won't pick it up.

Like I said earlier, even if you don't know it's there, your body does. And if Feruchemy works by the Filtration Model, that's all it takes to be able to store and tap something, so long as you have the metal.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And yes, you have to physically touch them. Do you have telekinetic ability or something? Kids with telekinesis would be a nightmare. :P

Kids with telekinesis would be a nightmare. But the whole thing with blocks is an analogy. You don't actually need to pick up blocks and fit them into matching crevices, those are representations of things you would be doing internally. That's what I was referencing, the different Investitures being formless and able to be applied simultaneously to a given metal to see what attribute goes in.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nah, If I had a Fullmind I wouldn't waste my time trying to figure out which attribute belongs to which metal. I would just make a list of new storable attributes and pass it to scientists and let them waste their life on that, while I would just have fun playing with new toys.

The thing is, I would use it to try and figure out the metallic arts.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think you falsely assume that Fullmind will be a focus of future scientific advancements in Metallic arts. It won't be. That's just a new fancy tool for a select few to play with - at best.

That's what Bavadinium would have been; except Wax, after he does his experiments, donates his samples to the University, where people with more experience and time than him could experiment with it. A Fullmind, even a single one too small to hold any appreciable amount of any attribute would still do wonders for scientific advancement in Feruchemy.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Another thing against your idea. If you would need JUST the intent to store SOMETHING in metalmind, then it would be no different from Inquisitors wanting to compound - just them wanting to burn metalminds should be enough. And yet none of them figured it out under Ruin, even when Marsh knew about it, heard Sazed's explanation and knew he just needed to burn his metalmind. Easy right? No. Because more is needed. You need to know that you must "burn" that new reserve of your stored attribute, not just burn a metalmind like a metal. To add more, you need to know what is happening, and how this will change you. That's what they were missing. They didn't know it. In the same way, just knowing that it is a metalmind isn't enough, you need to know which attribute to store, how will it change you and what is happening. And you can't know all of that without knowing which attribute it is. That's the proper intent you need to have. Just storing "something" won't do it, just like Inquisitors weren't able to just "burn" metalminds.

This doesn't really prove anything against my argument. It's the same thing as the Fullmind. With a metal that doesn't automatically filter all incorrect attributes, you would need to single out which attribute(s) you want to store. In that type of scenario, you would need to have a specific Intent. Same thing here. When you're Compounding, you need to burn the metal in a way that it hooks up Preservation's Investiture to the Feruchemical charge, not the metal itself. Multiple options, just like the Fullmind, and so, specific Intent is required. If you were burning Steel for Steelsight and Steelpushing, suddenly switching to burning it and not getting those effects would be jarring; Therefore, as Brandon said, you'd need to practice and figure out what it is you're trying to do and how to do it.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This, this explanation of intent is the last one that I will give you. This WoB explains what I've been talking to you in all those past days, confirming my idea.

It doesn't, for the reasons I give above.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's one of many possibilities of how a Fullmind might work. You might need just to know the attribute, or both attribute and metal to which it belongs to. But I think because a Fullmind is keyed to every attribute, you just need to know only that.

You know, you've convinced me on this one. We're focusing a bit too much on Intent; Here, just knowing an attribute is storable without knowing which metal stores is most probably enough to store and tap it, and you could do that by guessing. I think for narrative reasons it would be way too powerful, but in theory, it should work just fine.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA

Spoiler

Possibly, but keep in mind a power provided in Allomancy by Shards is miniscule compared to what Stormlight holds. Your Surgebinding powered by Allomancy would be just very weak and not effective.

 

SA

Spoiler

I didn't mean by using the Investiture gained by burning metal. I meant that, like how stolen Allomancy gives the user the ability to draw in Ruin's Investiture to power it, would a stolen Spren Bond not also allow a Radiant to power their Surgebinding with pure Ruinous Investiture? If it works, I think it would be more sustainable than any of the Rosharan Lights, given that you'd be directly hooked up to Ruin.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA

Spoiler

No idea. Brandon even said if you count each Surge as a separate magic system, which is valid, there are more than 30 magic systems on Roshar. So 10 for Surgebinding, 10 for Voidbinding, 10 for Lifebinding + Old Magic and Fabrials (i don't count Fabrials as magic, Fabrial is magic-tech).

Singer forms of power, Yelig-Nar and Fused is from Surgebinding. Red eyes are associated with corrupted investiture and I believe Odium corrupts Surgebinding so they can use it with Voidlight.

 

Cosmere Spoilers

Spoiler

 

There was a WoB saying that magic systems tend to form the same way, A magic system for the Shard, with a second one that's a balance between them, repeated for however many Shard that are there.. Pre-Odium, Sel would have had 3: Devotion's, Dominion's, and a balance of the two. Following that pattern, Roshar should have 7. I wonder though, do the Avatars of Autonomy incite a new magic system on each of the planets they inhabit? Had Telsin successfully Ascended, would she have caused a new Metallic Art to form? Had that been the case, would she have formed 3 balancing systems, 1 each with Preservation and Ruin, and one that was a mix of all three, or a single one with Harmony?

And for Roshar, I think there would only be 9 for Odium, given his view of Adhesion. I feel that Fabrials could equally be either a true magic system or magic-tech, or possibly a weird hybrid of both. it raises the question though: Shardblades wouldn't be considered Fabrials, but what about Soulcasters, and the other possible Fabrials that a True Spren could form? They manifest like Sprenblades, but act like Fabrials in their need for gemstones and Light to function, plus the fact that they grant Surgebinding to anyone who uses them. What about Honorblades? they're Splinters, but do they count as something akin to a Sprenblade given that they're self-aware, or are they Magic-Tech, given they also bestow powers?

And that's an excellent connection, I hadn't realized that. Totally makes sense though. But if all instances of Forms of Power and Fused powers are Surgebinding, what is Odium's magic system? What's Honor's magic system, for that matter? I had assumed Surgebinding would be the balance between Honor and Cultivation, since Spren are Honor and Cultivation's Investiture, but Honorblades can alone grant Surgebinding, which casts some doubt on this. Here's the best approximation I could come up with:

Honor: Surgebinding (Knights Radiant, Yelig-Nar, Fused, Singer Forms of Power)

Cultivation: Old Magic (Nightwatcher, Potentially regular Singer forms)

Odium: Breakdancing, probably <_< (UNKNOWN)

Honor/Cultivation: Fabrials (If they're a magic system at all)

Honor/Odium: Voidbinding (Or Whatever it is Renarin and Rlain are doing)

Cultivation/Odium: Venlibinding (Whatever Venli was doing in RoW where she heard Cultivation and Odium's Tones achieve Harmony) (NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE)

Honor/Cultivation/Odium: Dalinarbinding; honorably(:ph34r:) spreading destruction, then growing beyond it. (UNKNOWN)

 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA:

Spoiler

Maybe. Or a specific anti tone of the attribute stored there, which is a combination of Ruin and Preservation's tone.

 

SA

Spoiler

So, what I was saying earlier?

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA:

Spoiler

Again, maybe. It depends how much "sticky" the spike is. Your soul, just like Raboniel's soul, would be in discomfort, but just by playing that tone won't make your soul disappear.

Iirc, In RoW, the gem with the anti-tone being close to the gem with proper tone didn't push the light out of the gem. Nor just playing anti tone close to the gem didn't do that. With spikes you would need something more, a way to conduct anti-investiture into the spike without damaging it in the process.

 

Like I said before, I doubt a spike is "sticky". Metal isn't and never has been alive, so just as it would be hard to Awaken it, no remnant of a soul would want to stay in it. The only reason Hemalurgic charges remain in a spike is because of the Metal's nature as a focus for that magic system, as well as the fact that it mimics hal-life decay.

Also, in RoW, playing the plate nearly ejects the Voidlight from Raboniel's Gemheart, separately from making her soul "cringe". It also forces Voidlight out of multiple spheres, even when not directly touching. Just the sound is enough. The proper Anti-Tone should force out the soul fragment.

As for the Anti-Tone weapon, a single plate being played makes Raboniel's soul uncomfortable. That alone should make enemy soldiers perform worse, barring needing to replicate that volume everywhere on a battlefield. However, if a plate alone can make you uncomfortable, surely a loud enough burst of Anti-Tone could force your soul out. A gigantic speaker in the middle of a battlefield should kill those in a radius around it, maybe knock others out in a larger one, and make people on the outskirts squeamish.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Who do you think you are that we need to fight for your approval? :angry:

;)

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, they don't do that anymore.

Could just be that since there are two mists now, those ones just happened to be the Preservation ones, which move away at the notion of murder?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That shouldn't be the case. They shouldn't be repealed by spikes. But I had to check and it did happen with Wax in TLM! Ch 69:

This is another proof that something is wrong with Harmony, that he favors Preservation over Ruin and Mist reacted to this and are now repealed by Hemalurgy. Or this is even an indication that Sazed is already Discord. That's very interesting.

That's a valid way of thinking of it too.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

For me are, as I lack the proper knowledge of music and waves :P

The tone is the sound that is heard in singing or playing the notes, while the rhythm is just the repetition or pattern in a song.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's not true, after a long time, there will be only one atom of that isotope left, and it will decay, leaving you with nothing. Technically speaking.

That's true, but look at any given Half-Life scale with actual values on it, and even though it gets very close, it never actually touches down on 0. That's because, with each half-life, the rate at which it's going down gets smaller and smaller by 50%. That means that it'll never actually hit zero, but rather keep dividing by 2 in increasingly shrinking amounts infinitely. The same is true for Hemalurgy. Whether you ever end up with 0 radioactive material in real life or not, Brandon himself has said that a Hemalurgic spike will never run out of charge. The Investiture is constantly leaking out, the nature of the metal as the focus just keeps the soul stapled there.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, it's not metal. It's not a spike anymore. Fabrial on the other hand might be possible to make that way. You replace a spren with a different kind of soul. Interesting.

I think you could make it work, should the soul not fade away. The metal is important for getting the right soul fragment from the victim. Once you have it, it should work the same way regardless of the container. Normally the problem is getting the charge out of the spike, but with Raysium, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Cosmere Spoilers

Spoiler

 

A human soul Fabrial, huh? That's one heck of a nightmare. I'm sure it would work, but for what? The type of Polestone determines what Spren you can trap, and what Spren you can trap affects what kind of Fabrial you can make. Would all Human soul fragments cause the same effects, regardless of Poletone or which type of fragment, or would it depend on the type of soul fragment? What if I suck your soul out the normal way, by stabbing you with a Raysium dagger? Then you would have a whole soul you could experiment with. 

I wonder what a Seon Fabrial would do. Those would probably be unique for each Seon. What about the Skaze? Do you reckon Aonium and Skaium would be black and white, like the Seons and Skaze? We'll see if Dalinar ever decides to use Connection to pull a Seon into the Physical Realm as a Shardblade. Brandon' said that other Bonds create effects on Roshar, so I'm waiting to see what happens with Shallan and her Seon, if she bonds to it. How do you think Mraize rigged that box up to kill the Seon if it was opened? How would you kill a Seon without Anti-Devotion?

 

 

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15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That still doesn't quite make sense. As you mentioned just earlier, the body knows what can and can't be stored. There won't be any common objects in the room, only the storable attributes. The existence of an un-storable 'common object' attribute implies that you can convert anything into Investiture, and it's the metal that determines what you can store and tap - which we know isn't the case. Hence, you'd still only have attributes as objects that you can try to fit into the holes, which, like i said earlier, can be easily figured out just by trying to store everything the body knows can be stored.

Why are you trying to make this analogy work  as literal as possible? You chose what to store. You can try storing your balance, or try storing your leg - both of those things are in that room, you take them and try putting them through the hole - leg doesn't fit, balance does. The conversion into investiture doesn't happen as you pick up that object, but as it goes through the hole. The other side of the hole is the metalmind. Whatever is happening before an object is pushed through the hole is your mind trying to come up with something that can be stored. Not everything that you think of is a Feruchemical attribute, but you can still try it out with no result.

Your body doesn't provide sufficient intent. Not in that case.

15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Kids with telekinesis would be a nightmare. But the whole thing with blocks is an analogy. You don't actually need to pick up blocks and fit them into matching crevices, those are representations of things you would be doing internally. That's what I was referencing, the different Investitures being formless and able to be applied simultaneously to a given metal to see what attribute goes in.

The investiture of the attribute isn't formless in your body, before being stored. It's already in a very specific form of kinetic investiture, hearable and distinguishable by a Seeker. He is able to tell if what you're trying to store is strength, speed or age, and that's BEFORE it goes into a metalmind. That's why you need to know what it is, as your body converts that attribute into a very specific form of a kinetic investiture, not something formless which gains from from a metal.

15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's what Bavadinium would have been; except Wax, after he does his experiments, donates his samples to the University, where people with more experience and time than him could experiment with it. A Fullmind, even a single one too small to hold any appreciable amount of any attribute would still do wonders for scientific advancement in Feruchemy.

What I meant is that except for that one WoB there is no sign of a Fullmind happening anytime soon in Mistborn series. Medallions - yes, Primar Cubes - yes, Atium, Lerasium, Harmonium and Trellium - yes, in those sectors the advancement will happen because of those metals. Nobody ever wonders if you can store more than one attribute from different metals in a single metalmind. A Fullmind won't happen anytime soon.

15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

This doesn't really prove anything against my argument. It's the same thing as the Fullmind. With a metal that doesn't automatically filter all incorrect attributes, you would need to single out which attribute(s) you want to store. In that type of scenario, you would need to have a specific Intent. Same thing here. When you're Compounding, you need to burn the metal in a way that it hooks up Preservation's Investiture to the Feruchemical charge, not the metal itself. Multiple options, just like the Fullmind, and so, specific Intent is required. If you were burning Steel for Steelsight and Steelpushing, suddenly switching to burning it and not getting those effects would be jarring; Therefore, as Brandon said, you'd need to practice and figure out what it is you're trying to do and how to do it.

It doesn't, for the reasons I give above.

That's why I won't be arguing about it anymore. There is a WoB clearly stating that for proper intent to work you need to understand what is happening, and what effect it will have. That's why compounding didn't work for Inquisitors, that's why Sazed wasn't able to figure out what aluminum and Malatium does, that's why Awakening requires a clear command and visualization, that's why you need to know what to store in unknown metalmind. This explanation ties perfectly to other aspects of intent in Cosmere. 

That's it from me on this topic. No need to reply (not said in an angry voice :P ) 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA

  Hide contents

I didn't mean by using the Investiture gained by burning metal. I meant that, like how stolen Allomancy gives the user the ability to draw in Ruin's Investiture to power it, would a stolen Spren Bond not also allow a Radiant to power their Surgebinding with pure Ruinous Investiture? If it works, I think it would be more sustainable than any of the Rosharan Lights, given that you'd be directly hooked up to Ruin.

 

SA:

Spoiler

I didn't mean that either. What I meant is that the amount of investiture Shards are able to directly supply isn't normally that great as when using gaseous or liquid form of Investiture. It's based on connection and its strength. Ruin wouldn't be able to supply you comparable amounts of investiture to Stormlight. Decay would make it even less, and make your Surgebinding less efficient (just like Radiants on lower Oaths are less efficient with their light than Radiants on higher Oaths).

 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
Spoiler

There was a WoB saying that magic systems tend to form the same way, A magic system for the Shard, with a second one that's a balance between them, repeated for however many Shard that are there.. Pre-Odium, Sel would have had 3: Devotion's, Dominion's, and a balance of the two. Following that pattern, Roshar should have 7.

 

Cosmere:

Spoiler

Yes, there is, there are also lots of WoBs where Brandon said that the number of magic systems on Roshar depends on how you count them. Is each Surge a magic system? Is Windrunning a magic system? etc etc. He gave us an open door for that.

Spoiler

Crspu

Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? 

So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not?

So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I notice how in the different worlds you have different sets of powers. Elantris has two gods in it, two Shards, and there are four powers that we've seen, and we've seen three powers on Scadrial. Do you have kind of a formula or general rule for how many magic systems there are in a place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

But that being said there should be 7 systems in total, based on Shards interactions and Scadrial.People are asking Brandon about that and trying to figure it out, check out this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/379/#e12835

 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I wonder though, do the Avatars of Autonomy incite a new magic system on each of the planets they inhabit? Had Telsin successfully Ascended, would she have caused a new Metallic Art to form? Had that been the case, would she have formed 3 balancing systems, 1 each with Preservation and Ruin, and one that was a mix of all three, or a single one with Harmony?

Good question. But I think the answer is no, because Autonomy wouldn't be that much invested in the system to spark a magic system. She would likely heve to be fully invested to do so, but she can't as long as she is bound to Taldain. 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
Spoiler

And that's an excellent connection, I hadn't realized that. Totally makes sense though. But if all instances of Forms of Power and Fused powers are Surgebinding, what is Odium's magic system? What's Honor's magic system, for that matter? I had assumed Surgebinding would be the balance between Honor and Cultivation, since Spren are Honor and Cultivation's Investiture, but Honorblades can alone grant Surgebinding, which casts some doubt on this. Here's the best approximation I could come up with:

 

SA:

Spoiler

Just because Honor alone granted Surges via Honorblades doesn't mean that's a pure Honor magic system. Shards can mimic a system of a different Shard and fuel them directly (there were WoBs on that). Just like Preservation could potentially fully fuel Hemalurgy and Ruin could fully fuel Allomancy, despite them being of a different Shard, they existed together based on R&P interactions. 

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

So what is happening with Honorblades might be that Honor just copied the magic of both Honor and Cultivation and is fueling it directly by himself, and giving it directly of his pure essence (Tanavastium). That doesn't necessarily have to mean Honorblades and their Surges are a pure Honor magic system.

That's partially why I think Fused Surges and Singers forms of Powers aren't true Odium's magic system - they are Surgebinding of Honor and Cultivation, corrupted by Odium in a way that he alone gives that power, he gives them fuel and commands them. Red eyes might indicate they are corrupted. He just copied their system and is fueling it by himself. Why? Because we know Odium was reluctant to invest himself fully into Roshar previously, as he didn’t want to be bound to it permanently. He wanted to be free, to destroy more Shards. He didn’t invest himself enough for his magic system to manifest itself. That’s why Fused were made out of Singers, Unmades out of sprens, Forms of powers out of Singers and spren too. He used what others had created and corrupted it without investing himself too much. But that’s not the case anymore. He is not fully invested into Roshar (maybe creating Everstorm forced him to do so to circumvent Taln), and now his magic system will fully manifest, with other systems being of balance between other Shards too. And so it just happened that Voidbinding is appearing now, something that wasn’t explored in the past and was mostly unknown.

 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA

  Hide contents

So, what I was saying earlier?

SA:

Spoiler

Maybe, I don't know anymore. I meant that each attribute has a different tone, based on the combined tone of Ruin and Preservation. But there are slight differences for each attribute.

 

16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Like I said before, I doubt a spike is "sticky". Metal isn't and never has been alive, so just as it would be hard to Awaken it, no remnant of a soul would want to stay in it.

Hemalurgy isn't Awakening, it doesn't matter that metal was never alive. It's more about how strongly connected the charge is to a spike. If it's too strong, simple playing won't push it out of the spike. 

17 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
Spoiler

Also, in RoW, playing the plate nearly ejects the Voidlight from Raboniel's Gemheart, separately from making her soul "cringe". It also forces Voidlight out of multiple spheres, even when not directly touching. Just the sound is enough. The proper Anti-Tone should force out the soul fragment.

As for the Anti-Tone weapon, a single plate being played makes Raboniel's soul uncomfortable. That alone should make enemy soldiers perform worse, barring needing to replicate that volume everywhere on a battlefield. However, if a plate alone can make you uncomfortable, surely a loud enough burst of Anti-Tone could force your soul out. A gigantic speaker in the middle of a battlefield should kill those in a radius around it, maybe knock others out in a larger one, and make people on the outskirts squeamish.

 

SA: 

Spoiler

You forgot a spoiler box. But a good point. However Voidlight isn't a piece of soul. Those are different. Raboniel's soul only "cringed" but wasn't pushed out. That's why I think the same would happen with a spike. 

I don't know if a loud enough sound would be enough to force the soul out of a person. Out of the Fused and CS - maybe. But people's souls are invested with all 16 Shards, only on Scadrial they're made out of only 2. That's why I don't think it would be possible.

 

17 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's true, but look at any given Half-Life scale with actual values on it, and even though it gets very close, it never actually touches down on 0.

That would be true if you could have less than 1 atom. But you can't have half of a cesium atom. It will always end up on 1 last atom, which would decay fully, leaving you with 0 atoms. Of course, you need a lot of time. 

17 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The same is true for Hemalurgy. Whether you ever end up with 0 radioactive material in real life or not, Brandon himself has said that a Hemalurgic spike will never run out of charge. The Investiture is constantly leaking out, the nature of the metal as the focus just keeps the soul stapled there.

If investiture has a smallest unit/particle, then it will go down to 0 as it hits 1, and cannot divide it by 2, if not then it will go down to numbers less than 1 but greater by 0, never hitting 0 like you said. Likely, Axon might be just that smallest unit, as it is equivalent to our Atom but having Investiture as a part of it. Is the soul made out of Axi with no physical matter and energy? Maybe. Who knows?

17 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think you could make it work, should the soul not fade away. The metal is important for getting the right soul fragment from the victim. Once you have it, it should work the same way regardless of the container. Normally the problem is getting the charge out of the spike, but with Raysium, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Cosmere Spoilers

  Hide contents

 

A human soul Fabrial, huh? That's one heck of a nightmare. I'm sure it would work, but for what? The type of Polestone determines what Spren you can trap, and what Spren you can trap affects what kind of Fabrial you can make. Would all Human soul fragments cause the same effects, regardless of Poletone or which type of fragment, or would it depend on the type of soul fragment? What if I suck your soul out the normal way, by stabbing you with a Raysium dagger? Then you would have a whole soul you could experiment with. 

I wonder what a Seon Fabrial would do. Those would probably be unique for each Seon. What about the Skaze? Do you reckon Aonium and Skaium would be black and white, like the Seons and Skaze? We'll see if Dalinar ever decides to use Connection to pull a Seon into the Physical Realm as a Shardblade. Brandon' said that other Bonds create effects on Roshar, so I'm waiting to see what happens with Shallan and her Seon, if she bonds to it. How do you think Mraize rigged that box up to kill the Seon if it was opened? How would you kill a Seon without Anti-Devotion?

 

Cosmere:

Spoiler

The type of polestones would likely depend on the piece of soul you have stolen and powers it gives. 

But there is a problem, that soul might not act like a spren in gem, but like a Jezrien in gem - taking it out of spike might make it lose its connection to PR, just like Jez had, and it would fade into the beyond after a short amount of time. 

Can a Raysium dagger suck out a human soul, or is it too strongly attached to the body? Not every dagger can do that, Raboniel gave Navani a dagger incapable of doing so. 

Seons and Skaze would act like spren, their effect would depend on the type of Aon they are. This might be a far more versatile way of creating Fabrials than what they have on Roshar - just create a proper Seon (easier said than done) and trap it in a gem. 

Atium isn't black, despite Ruin being associated with the color black. Raysium isn't gold nor red nor violet despite Odium's colors being those ones. I see no reason why Aonium and Skaium would need to be black and white. 

They can be pulled into PR and manifest as a Shardblade, Dalinar might be able to do it:

Spoiler

paperstones

Could a seon or a skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet?

Brandon Sanderson

That is theoretically possible.  They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the Physical Realm.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Mraize lied.

 

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On 01/06/2023 at 5:40 PM, alder24 said:

Competition? Nah, @therunner is one of the best on the forum in making logical and compelling arguments, with whom I have the pleasure of quarrelling discussing. I can't compete with him.

Thank you, I am blushing :D
It is quite fun to discuss with you. :)

21 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That... kind of proves my point. Your very being knows what attributes it can convert, it's literally encoded into you. You're making a few mistakes here though. If you try to force strength into a Steelmind, nothing would happen, but not because of Intent, quite the opposite. Just by trying, you're providing an Intent to do that very thing. It's the Feruchemical property of the metal that's stopping it from happening. Your body knows what attributes can and can't be converted. When you try to store something in metal, even if you don't know what it is, your body does, and it will try to convert and store those attributes. Only, depending on the metal you're trying to store in, only a single attribute will be allowed in. Thus, without knowing the attribute itself, you can still store and tap it.

I don't think this argument holds up. Just because the ability to tap and store is part of spiritweb, and 'knows' what it can do, does not mean that the person can do it.

I mean, all of us have ability to do somersaults literally encoded into us, and yet most cannot :D

Like anythings, ability requires practice, and in Cosmere also Intent. So I don't think you can tap or store without knowing what attribute you are storing. I mean the fact that you cannot store while sleeping strongly suggests that conscious Intent to store something in particular is quite important.

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA:

Spoiler
Spoiler

I didn't mean that either. What I meant is that the amount of investiture Shards are able to directly supply isn't normally that great as when using gaseous or liquid form of Investiture. It's based on connection and its strength. Ruin wouldn't be able to supply you comparable amounts of investiture to Stormlight. Decay would make it even less, and make your Surgebinding less efficient (just like Radiants on lower Oaths are less efficient with their light than Radiants on higher Oaths).

 

Is the amount a Shard can directly provide less than what you get from physical Investiture? You're gonna have to cite a source for that one, I really don't think so. You are right about it being less efficient than regular because of the Hemalurgy (It might even limit the highest Oath you can swear, maybe capping you at about 3 or 4), so they'd use up more Investiture than another Surgebinder of their level to do the same things, but If you could use a Hemalurgically acquired Nahel Bond to get a direct supply of Investiture from Ruin, it would be very useful since you would bypass the need to get and then keep spheres of Light on you. Even if it's less efficient per unit than Light, which I do doubt, you could always just draw more Investiture and try to compromise. That would have a very hard cap on it, though.

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere:

Spoiler
Spoiler

But that being said there should be 7 systems in total, based on Shards interactions and Scadrial.People are asking Brandon about that and trying to figure it out, check out this WoB:

 

That's what I was trying to quantify. The WoB you linked had a chart attached to it that does a really good job of it.

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Good question. But I think the answer is no, because Autonomy wouldn't be that much invested in the system to spark a magic system. She would likely heve to be fully invested to do so, but she can't as long as she is bound to Taldain. 

I agree, to an extent. I think if a sufficiently Invested Avatar fully Invested themselves into Scadrial, it could work. The Avatar would need to hold a significant portion of Autonomy's power though, if that's how it works.

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA:

Spoiler
Spoiler

Just because Honor alone granted Surges via Honorblades doesn't mean that's a pure Honor magic system. Shards can mimic a system of a different Shard and fuel them directly (there were WoBs on that). Just like Preservation could potentially fully fuel Hemalurgy and Ruin could fully fuel Allomancy, despite them being of a different Shard, they existed together based on R&P interactions.

So what is happening with Honorblades might be that Honor just copied the magic of both Honor and Cultivation and is fueling it directly by himself, and giving it directly of his pure essence (Tanavastium). That doesn't necessarily have to mean Honorblades and their Surges are a pure Honor magic system.

That's partially why I think Fused Surges and Singers forms of Powers aren't true Odium's magic system - they are Surgebinding of Honor and Cultivation, corrupted by Odium in a way that he alone gives that power, he gives them fuel and commands them. Red eyes might indicate they are corrupted. He just copied their system and is fueling it by himself. Why? Because we know Odium was reluctant to invest himself fully into Roshar previously, as he didn’t want to be bound to it permanently. He wanted to be free, to destroy more Shards. He didn’t invest himself enough for his magic system to manifest itself. That’s why Fused were made out of Singers, Unmades out of sprens, Forms of powers out of Singers and spren too. He used what others had created and corrupted it without investing himself too much. But that’s not the case anymore. He is not fully invested into Roshar (maybe creating Everstorm forced him to do so to circumvent Taln), and now his magic system will fully manifest, with other systems being of balance between other Shards too. And so it just happened that Voidbinding is appearing now, something that wasn’t explored in the past and was mostly unknown.

 

SA

Spoiler

Honestly, very well-thought-out and well-reasoned theory. Surgebinding does seem to be Honor and Cultivtion's hybrid system, and the Honorblades granting it through only Honor may be why Honorblade Surgebinding requires vast amounts of Stormlight, far beyond Nahel Surgebinding. I was just giving the Honorblade thing too much weight, what you're saying here seems like a more likely answer. What you're saying about Odium, I repeat, is very well-thought-out and well-reasoned, all the points you make seem to hit the nail right in the head. However, I think Voidbinding is more the Hybrid system of Honor, Cultivation and Odium, rather than that of Odium alone. I think it's a coincidence that it's forming around the same time as whatever Odium's true system is, given that a Knight could have just bonded an Enlightened/Corrupted True Spren at any point and become a Voidbinder. Note that this only holds if Voidbinding is what Renarin and Rlain are doing. If it's something else, then it may indeed be Odium's magic system, with what Renarin and Rlain do being the true Tri-Shardic hybrid system.

 

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA:

Spoiler
Spoiler

Maybe, I don't know anymore. I meant that each attribute has a different tone, based on the combined tone of Ruin and Preservation. But there are slight differences for each attribute.

 

 

SA

Spoiler

This is what I said:

I have a headcanon that the reason Feruchemy is hard to hear with Bronze is not because it's faint, but because it's more like a Tone than the rhythms Seekers are used to hearing. Because we know Inquisitors spent a lot of effort trying to figure out a way to detect Feruchemy, maybe while they were all looking so something like deep thumping, Feruchemy in use would actually make noise more akin to high-pitched ringing. I don't have any evidence for it, but if that's the case, the 'sound' of Feruchemy would be the Harmony between Ruin and Preservation's Tone, played at different pitches. There are only 12 pitches in a given octave, but like how Trellium's signature literally goes off the charts on a spectrometer, and Navani observes that Lights have a wider band of certain colors in the rainbows they produce (which is impossible), It's possible there could be some Cosmere weirdness that could somehow create the 4 other pitches needed for the full 16 variations needed. Inverting those could get rid of Feruchemy in a spike.

 

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Hemalurgy isn't Awakening, it doesn't matter that metal was never alive. It's more about how strongly connected the charge is to a spike. If it's too strong, simple playing won't push it out of the spike. 

They both deal with putting a piece of someone's soul into an object, so I think it isn't too unreasonable to use one as a model for another. The charge would be bound to the spike quite strongly, but I think that increasing the volume of the Anti-tone past a certain point should get rid of even that.

Quote

SA: 

Spoiler

I don't know if a loud enough sound would be enough to force the soul out of a person. Out of the Fused and CS - maybe. But people's souls are invested with all 16 Shards, only on Scadrial they're made out of only 2. That's why I don't think it would be possible.

 

I know only Scadrians were created artificially, but wouldn't the humans on Shardworlds have their souls composed of their resident Shard's Investiture?

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That would be true if you could have less than 1 atom. But you can't have half of a cesium atom. It will always end up on 1 last atom, which would decay fully, leaving you with 0 atoms. Of course, you need a lot of time.

You don't measure radioactive material in atoms. A single atom is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what you would have had at the start, which would be measured in terms of mass. You're right in that eventually every single atom will decay, but that takes way too long, so we usually just measure it up to a small decimal, then consider everything as completely decayed.

Quote

If investiture has a smallest unit/particle, then it will go down to 0 as it hits 1, and cannot divide it by 2, if not then it will go down to numbers less than 1 but greater by 0, never hitting 0 like you said. Likely, Axon might be just that smallest unit, as it is equivalent to our Atom but having Investiture as a part of it. Is the soul made out of Axi with no physical matter and energy? Maybe. Who knows?

The Cosmere has its own version of Newton's laws of physics, and one of them is mass=energy=Investiture. Investiture would be comprised of particles only when physically manifested as matter, so things like God metals, Perpendicularity liquid, or Lights. Otherwise, it probably acts like energy, something like temperature. A Hemalurgic charge would probably decay like something constantly getting colder, but never actually hitting absolute zero. A spike decaying would be like going from 0.1 to 0.01, then 0.001, 0.0001, 0.00001, and so on, always getting smaller but never running out.

Quote

Cosmere:

Spoiler

The type of polestones would likely depend on the piece of soul you have stolen and powers it gives. 

But there is a problem, that soul might not act like a spren in gem, but like a Jezrien in gem - taking it out of spike might make it lose its connection to PR, just like Jez had, and it would fade into the beyond after a short amount of time. 

Can a Raysium dagger suck out a human soul, or is it too strongly attached to the body? Not every dagger can do that, Raboniel gave Navani a dagger incapable of doing so. 

Seons and Skaze would act like spren, their effect would depend on the type of Aon they are. This might be a far more versatile way of creating Fabrials than what they have on Roshar - just create a proper Seon (easier said than done) and trap it in a gem. 

Atium isn't black, despite Ruin being associated with the color black. Raysium isn't gold nor red nor violet despite Odium's colors being those ones. I see no reason why Aonium and Skaium would need to be black and white. 

They can be pulled into PR and manifest as a Shardblade, Dalinar might be able to do it:

 

Cosmere Spoilers:

Spoiler

The soul would definitely act like Jezrien. This discussion is guessing at what it could do if that somehow didn't happen.

It can, it does so to Jezrien, though that isn't an irrefutable example since he was a CS. Navani's one can't do so because it doesn't have enough Raysium.

How would you create a Seon?

Raysium is gold, so much so that it's nearly white. That's why I ask, though also because Seons and Skaze are white and black, and Sprenblades generally seem to be the same color as the Spren's true colors.

I know it's possible, I just wonder whether we'll ever see a Seon/Skazeblade.

Do we know Autonomy's color??

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think this argument holds up. Just because the ability to tap and store is part of spiritweb, and 'knows' what it can do, does not mean that the person can do it.

Some Intent will always be required, I just don't think you need to know the attribute you're storing.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, all of us have ability to do somersaults literally encoded into us, and yet most cannot :D

Somersaults aren't encoded. There's nothing in your genes that specifically code for the ability to do a somersault. That's more a result of different traits in your body converging to produce a single effect: Fine muscular motor control, plus an innate sense of balance. It's like comparing your body's ability to create protein to being able to cross your eyes. One is a direct result of DNA, whereas the other is just one of many things muscles allow you to do by literally doing their job: allowing you to move. Some people refine that ability enough for things like somersaults, sure, but DNA and performing somersaults are completely disconnected from each other by scale and nature, and the two have no direct causes or consequences relating to one another. It is, once more, a false dichotomy, or at the very least an appeal to the extreme.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Like anythings, ability requires practice, and in Cosmere also Intent. So I don't think you can tap or store without knowing what attribute you are storing. I mean the fact that you cannot store while sleeping strongly suggests that conscious Intent to store something in particular is quite important.

I do agree that Intent is absolutely required, just nothing so specific as the exact attribute. That's why you can't store while sleeping. As for practice, that doesn't factor into Feruchemy much. Augmenting an Allomantic ability with a spike makes it nearly twice as strong. Vin can pierce Copperclouds, hear the manifestations of Preservation and Ruin, and detect the pulsing of the Well long before any other seeker can. But augmenting Feruchemy with it, and you get barely a bit more of the attribute per unit stored. Same for Feruchemy diluting over time, in Era 2, 3 hundred years after the Catancendre, even though Feruchemy has been broken down into separate abilities, it's still barely less efficient than what someone like Sazed was capable of. Practice won't help you store attributes better.

Also, you never answered a question I asked, one that I think is pretty interesting:

Quote

But, do you think you could Compound Breaths by burning metal with Breaths in it that were keyed to your Identity? I doubt you would get a greater quantity, but the quality would be improved, or the Breaths would just become more substantial, like wannabe Divine Breaths. You might be able to make a Divine Breath that way, actually. You could reach Heightenings with fewer and fewer Breaths, and use less and less to Awaken. How come this hasn't been discussed before?

I'd love to get your opinion on it. Same to you, @alder24

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10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is the amount a Shard can directly provide less than what you get from physical Investiture? You're gonna have to cite a source for that one, I really don't think so. You are right about it being less efficient than regular because of the Hemalurgy (It might even limit the highest Oath you can swear, maybe capping you at about 3 or 4), so they'd use up more Investiture than another Surgebinder of their level to do the same things, but If you could use a Hemalurgically acquired Nahel Bond to get a direct supply of Investiture from Ruin, it would be very useful since you would bypass the need to get and then keep spheres of Light on you. Even if it's less efficient per unit than Light, which I do doubt, you could always just draw more Investiture and try to compromise. That would have a very hard cap on it, though.

Theoretically it probably is not less, however it seems that Shard must be somewhat actively Involved to supply Investiture in such manner as all the examples worked such:

  • Vin intentionally powered Elend
  • Ruin intenionally powered Marsh

SA spoilers:

Spoiler
  • Honor powered Heralds, and with its death that is no longer possible
  • Odium powers Fused, but it requires Song of Prayer, which draws its attention

And Nahel bond alone does not seem to have mechanism to procure Investiture, so I don't think Hemalurgically stolen Bond would let you power yourself off of Ruin.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I agree, to an extent. I think if a sufficiently Invested Avatar fully Invested themselves into Scadrial, it could work. The Avatar would need to hold a significant portion of Autonomy's power though, if that's how it works.

I think the Avatar would have to hold such a large portion of the power, and Invest it into the planet that they would effectively cease to be Avatar, and the Shard would just relocate to that planet, Avatar fully subsumed to the original Vessel.
Based on what we see in SA:

Spoiler

Investing into the planet/system is required for formation of full on Invested Art, as only know that Odium has become part of Rosharan system is Voidbinding coming into existence.

 

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA

  Hide contents

This is what I said:

I have a headcanon that the reason Feruchemy is hard to hear with Bronze is not because it's faint, but because it's more like a Tone than the rhythms Seekers are used to hearing. Because we know Inquisitors spent a lot of effort trying to figure out a way to detect Feruchemy, maybe while they were all looking so something like deep thumping, Feruchemy in use would actually make noise more akin to high-pitched ringing. I don't have any evidence for it, but if that's the case, the 'sound' of Feruchemy would be the Harmony between Ruin and Preservation's Tone, played at different pitches. There are only 12 pitches in a given octave, but like how Trellium's signature literally goes off the charts on a spectrometer, and Navani observes that Lights have a wider band of certain colors in the rainbows they produce (which is impossible), It's possible there could be some Cosmere weirdness that could somehow create the 4 other pitches needed for the full 16 variations needed. Inverting those could get rid of Feruchemy in a spike.

 

That is very interesting conjecture about the pitches! I could very well see that being the case. I wonder how it would sound to someone with perfect pitch, because it could be confusing :D

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I know only Scadrians were created artificially, but wouldn't the humans on Shardworlds have their souls composed of their resident Shard's Investiture?

Most likely no, since all the other are immigrants from Yolen as far as we know. Hence their lineage dates back to before Shattering.
Their souls are most likely mix of all the Investitures.

Personally, I think only first generation of Scadrians had souls exclusive out of P+R Investiture, and the subsequent natural generations draw on others as well, though with a bit more Preservation than usual (similar to Nalthis and Breath).

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The Cosmere has its own version of Newton's laws of physics, and one of them is mass=energy=Investiture. Investiture would be comprised of particles only when physically manifested as matter, so things like God metals, Perpendicularity liquid, or Lights. Otherwise, it probably acts like energy, something like temperature.

Technically energy is just a quality of physical object, not an object in itself. So based on that Investiture can have energy, not be energy. It would still have to be composed of something.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Some Intent will always be required, I just don't think you need to know the attribute you're storing.

Somersaults aren't encoded. There's nothing in your genes that specifically code for the ability to do a somersault. That's more a result of different traits in your body converging to produce a single effect: Fine muscular motor control, plus an innate sense of balance. It's like comparing your body's ability to create protein to being able to cross your eyes. One is a direct result of DNA, whereas the other is just one of many things muscles allow you to do by literally doing their job: allowing you to move. Some people refine that ability enough for things like somersaults, sure, but DNA and performing somersaults are completely disconnected from each other by scale and nature, and the two have no direct causes or consequences relating to one another. It is, once more, a false dichotomy, or at the very least an appeal to the extreme.

That is exactly where I was going with that analogy, it is multiple things working in concert to achieve effect.
The fact that Feruchemy is part of sDNA does not mean you magically know how to do it, it must be trained and practiced to achieve effects, like motor function.

Feruchemy and sDNA are separated by scale and nature, just like somersaults and DNA are. I just think that just like you have to know what you are doing to pull of a somersault, you have to know what you are doing to practice Feruchemy.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I do agree that Intent is absolutely required, just nothing so specific as the exact attribute. That's why you can't store while sleeping. As for practice, that doesn't factor into Feruchemy much. Same for Feruchemy diluting over time, in Era 2, 3 hundred years after the Catancendre, even though Feruchemy has been broken down into separate abilities, it's still barely less efficient than what someone like Sazed was capable of. Practice won't help you store attributes better.

Maybe practice does factor into it, we just have not seen anyone practice as much.
E.g. perhaps sufficiently practiced F-Iron ferring could store only mass of certain body parts, or F-Pewter only certain muscle groups, etc. Other arts allow similar selectness with practice (e.g. pushing/pulling on parts of metal, Surges affecting only part not whole). We already see something like it with F-Tin, which lets you store individual sense, and not just all of them at once.

Quote

Augmenting an Allomantic ability with a spike makes it nearly twice as strong. Vin can pierce Copperclouds, hear the manifestations of Preservation and Ruin, and detect the pulsing of the Well long before any other seeker can. But augmenting Feruchemy with it, and you get barely a bit more of the attribute per unit stored.

I would separate strength and skill. Vin is stronger allomancer (more power per unit metal burned), so she can overpower some effects (like piercing Copperclouds, or possibly hearing the well). The manifestations of Preservation and Ruin could also be intentionally for her, since they are doing it on purposes.

But she could not create steel bubble like Wax can, despite Wax being weaker.
So yes, I agree that Feruchemical spike won't make you 'stronger', but that does not matter for skill.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, you never answered a question I asked, one that I think is pretty interesting:

Apologies I overlooked it, busy days :)

Quote

But, do you think you could Compound Breaths by burning metal with Breaths in it that were keyed to your Identity? I doubt you would get a greater quantity, but the quality would be improved, or the Breaths would just become more substantial, like wannabe Divine Breaths. You might be able to make a Divine Breath that way, actually. You could reach Heightenings with fewer and fewer Breaths, and use less and less to Awaken. How come this hasn't been discussed before?

I don't think you could, neither Compound nor create Divine Breath.

One, Shards cannot create Investiture of other Shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710) and Divine Breath is a spliner (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10/#e6539) so you cannot make it.
Two, you might create something that looks like a Breaths but is made out of Preservation Investiture, which would have most likely some impact on its function (since Endowment Investiture is kinda extra sticky, but can be easily given away) so it might end up not suitable for using in Awakening.

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12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is the amount a Shard can directly provide less than what you get from physical Investiture? You're gonna have to cite a source for that one, I really don't think so.

Allomancy. Vin using Mists made her insanely stronger than drawing from Preservation. Even when Vin and Ruin directly supplied investiture to Marsh and Elend at the end of HoA, it didn't make them any stronger, because connection is the limitation, it's like a pipe, the wider it is the more it can carry, but there are limits to that (TLR strength partially, he got as strong as Allomancy can get just be being fueled by Preservation, but he also was using Feruchemy to make himself stronger). External sources of investiture are just far more efficient and potent, because connection to a Shard cease to be the limiting factor. Because you're using Hemalurgy, your connection to Ruin would be comparable to what you have when using stolen Allomancy, which is weak (if Ruin supplies that directly instead of Preservation, if that's not the case and the WoB was mistaken, all of that reasoning is invalid because you can't fuel Surgebinding with Ruin). Ruin would be able to provide little investiture in that case, far less than what Stormlight holds. 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

But @therunner made a good point - Surgebinding doesn't have any mechanism which allows to draw directly from the Shard, and thus this shouldn't happen even when spikes are involved.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA

Spoiler

However, I think Voidbinding is more the Hybrid system of Honor, Cultivation and Odium, rather than that of Odium alone.

 

SA

Spoiler

I didn't make it clear, Odium's pure magic system, along with all hybrids, would start to appear around now. Voidbinding might be a pure Odium's system (I don't think so) or one of 3 possible hybrids. I think it's the hybrid of all Shards. 

 

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA

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This is what I said:

I have a headcanon that the reason Feruchemy is hard to hear with Bronze is not because it's faint, but because it's more like a Tone than the rhythms Seekers are used to hearing. Because we know Inquisitors spent a lot of effort trying to figure out a way to detect Feruchemy, maybe while they were all looking so something like deep thumping, Feruchemy in use would actually make noise more akin to high-pitched ringing. I don't have any evidence for it, but if that's the case, the 'sound' of Feruchemy would be the Harmony between Ruin and Preservation's Tone, played at different pitches. There are only 12 pitches in a given octave, but like how Trellium's signature literally goes off the charts on a spectrometer, and Navani observes that Lights have a wider band of certain colors in the rainbows they produce (which is impossible), It's possible there could be some Cosmere weirdness that could somehow create the 4 other pitches needed for the full 16 variations needed. Inverting those could get rid of Feruchemy in a spike.

 

Yeah, kind of. Maybe. That's more or less the "tone" difference that I was talking about. 

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

They both deal with putting a piece of someone's soul into an object, so I think it isn't too unreasonable to use one as a model for another. The charge would be bound to the spike quite strongly, but I think that increasing the volume of the Anti-tone past a certain point should get rid of even that.

You can't. Those are 2 different magic systems, one relying on how close something is to life, other relying just on metals. They're not connected. It doesn't matter for Hemalurgy that the metal used for spikes was never alive.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I know only Scadrians were created artificially, but wouldn't the humans on Shardworlds have their souls composed of their resident Shard's Investiture?

Cosmere:

Spoiler

That Shard's investiture might be the biggest portion of their soul, compared to other pieces, but they would still be composed of all 16 types of Investiture, anchoring them strongly to the body. Just playing an anti-rhythm of one Shard won't be enough as all of that different pieces of investiture are merged together.

 

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You don't measure radioactive material in atoms. A single atom is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what you would have had at the start, which would be measured in terms of mass. You're right in that eventually every single atom will decay, but that takes way too long, so we usually just measure it up to a small decimal, then consider everything as completely decayed.

Yes, I know. I was just nitpicking and focusing on the very last atoms to decay. So technically you would end up with nothing, but as you said, it would take a mind-boggling amount of time. So large that it's practically infinite.

Cosmere:

Spoiler
13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The soul would definitely act like Jezrien. This discussion is guessing at what it could do if that somehow didn't happen.

I think you would need a Bondsmith to recreate all connections and prevent the piece of soul from slipping into the Beyond. That might be hard, but you would then have a Fabrial. Like if that piece of soul would be A-steel, then the fabrial might act like a Primar Cube charged with A-steel.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It can, it does so to Jezrien, though that isn't an irrefutable example since he was a CS. Navani's one can't do so because it doesn't have enough Raysium.

Yes, I know, but Jez was CS. What I was saying is that the human soul would be too strongly attached to the body to suck it out with a dagger. It still can happen, but that's another possibility. I think it would be weird if the dagger would work in the same way on humans as on CS.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

How would you create a Seon?

Just like True Spren! :P Take a piece of investiture and "make" it sapient. I know, easier said than done, but likely Elantrians must have some way to do so.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Raysium is gold, so much so that it's nearly white. That's why I ask, though also because Seons and Skaze are white and black, and Sprenblades generally seem to be the same color as the Spren's true colors.

Ok, I've missed that. Then maybe it would have collor like that.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we know Autonomy's color??

We don't, Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust.

Spoiler

Questioner

What is the color of Autonomy's Shard, on Taldain?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Good question.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)

 

Spoiler

LordSkybreaker

Hey u/mistborn I have a couple questions about Magic: the gathering.

What colors/kind of deck do you play in magic?

What colors are the known shards?

What colors are the various orders of the knights Radiant?

And finally, have you ever thought of doing the story for Wizards Of The Coast on one of their mtg blocks?

Brandon Sanderson

Any combo-style deck I can draft--or esper if I'm constructed.

Ruin: Black. Odium: Red. Honor: White. Preservation: White. Cultivation: Green. Devotion: Green/red. Dominion: Black/White. Autonomy: It's complicated.

(Also, question 3 is way too large for me to commit to right now. And for 4, if the right opportunity came along and they were interested, I could see myself doing this.)

SoupOrMan692

What about Endowment and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition is mono-black, and endowment is probably mono-green. Some of the blue shards are ones we haven't seen as much from yet.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

 

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
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But, do you think you could Compound Breaths by burning metal with Breaths in it that were keyed to your Identity? I doubt you would get a greater quantity, but the quality would be improved, or the Breaths would just become more substantial, like wannabe Divine Breaths. You might be able to make a Divine Breath that way, actually. You could reach Heightenings with fewer and fewer Breaths, and use less and less to Awaken. How come this hasn't been discussed before?

I'd love to get your opinion on it. Same to you, @alder24

I don't think so. Breaths are there with a specific command and are doing a specific action there (even the once just commanded with "my life to yours". If you use Feruchemy and store them in Nicrosilmind, then you might be able to compound them in a normal way (Brandon hasn't decided if nicrosil stores normal Breaths too). What you suggest is just too similar to nicrosil compounding, and it would be too easy to access that if any ordinary Allomancer would be able to Awaken a piece of metal and burn it to get more/stronger Breaths.

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4 hours ago, therunner said:

Theoretically it probably is not less, however it seems that Shard must be somewhat actively Involved to supply Investiture in such manner as all the examples worked such:

  • Vin intentionally powered Elend
  • Ruin intenionally powered Marsh

SA spoilers:

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  • Honor powered Heralds, and with its death that is no longer possible
  • Odium powers Fused, but it requires Song of Prayer, which draws its attention

And Nahel bond alone does not seem to have mechanism to procure Investiture, so I don't think Hemalurgically stolen Bond would let you power yourself off of Ruin.

That's a fair argument. I hadn't considered the need for conscious support from Ruin, but it makes sense.

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I think the Avatar would have to hold such a large portion of the power, and Invest it into the planet that they would effectively cease to be Avatar, and the Shard would just relocate to that planet, Avatar fully subsumed to the original Vessel.
Based on what we see in SA:

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Investing into the planet/system is required for formation of full on Invested Art, as only know that Odium has become part of Rosharan system is Voidbinding coming into existence.

It could become the new Vessel, if it gained the majority of the Shard's Investiture, but I doubt it would become subsumed into the original Vessel. In that case, I think the Vessel would become an Avatar, still separate from the second entity and still Invested, but less so than the old Avatar/new Vessel.

My question was more in terms of what would happen if they were equally or near-equally Invested though.

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That is very interesting conjecture about the pitches! I could very well see that being the case. I wonder how it would sound to someone with perfect pitch, because it could be confusing :D

That would be very confusing. Would it even be within the hearing range of a human?

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Most likely no, since all the other are immigrants from Yolen as far as we know. Hence their lineage dates back to before Shattering.
Their souls are most likely mix of all the Investitures.

Personally, I think only first generation of Scadrians had souls exclusive out of P+R Investiture, and the subsequent natural generations draw on others as well, though with a bit more Preservation than usual (similar to Nalthis and Breath).

I don't know, I'd have thought that having generation after generation being born on a planet Invested by a specific Shard would eventually flush out their system with the Investiture of the Shard as they become increasingly Connected to it and the planet. Connection to a Shard is required for accessing a Magic system, after all.  Not to mention that they would be procreating with each other, and just by random chance some people would end up with more Investiture aligned with the resident Shard, which, combined with the influence of the Shard's ambient Investiture being concentrated on that planet, would result in people whose souls are, if not completely made up of the Shard's Investiture, then at least the majority of the soul would be. For worlds with no Shards on them, I they would be made up of all sixteen in random concentrations, like First of the Sun.

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Technically energy is just a quality of physical object, not an object in itself. So based on that Investiture can have energy, not be energy. It would still have to be composed of something.

No? Energy is a quantitative property that can be transferred between matter, and it has different types and can be converted from one to another. It isn't made of particles or anything. Paradoxically though, matter and energy are one and the same, and can be converted from one into the other. Matter is atoms, which are in turn comprised of neutrons and protons, which are in turn made of quarks and fundamental particles, which are excitations (energized concentrations) in the fields that permeate the universe.

It's complicated, but basically, in quantum mechanics, particles like Electrons have intrinsic charges, positive or negative, and they exist because they're concentrations in a given field. Think of it as expending energy to turn 0 into 1 and -1, which is matter and antimatter, and when they collide the part of them that has mass and acts like matter annihilates and turns back into pure energy.

TL;DR: Matter is energy, and in the Cosmere, Matter is Energy, and both can also be Investiture. And because Energy isn't made of particles, Investiture isn't either, at least when it's not matter. We see some of this matter=Investiture=energy in Harmonium bombs. Harmonium is Investiture turned into matter, which when exposed to Bavadinium under specific circumstances turns part of the Harmonium into pure energy. We can do something like that in real life with Anti-matter, which we could hypothetically use to make a real-world parallel to Harmonium bombs, which would be even more devastating than nuclear bombs. The only problem is getting that much Anti-matter safely in one place long enough to use it as a bomb.

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That is exactly where I was going with that analogy, it is multiple things working in concert to achieve effect.
The fact that Feruchemy is part of sDNA does not mean you magically know how to do it, it must be trained and practiced to achieve effects, like motor function.

Not really, we know specific parts of your sDNA directly code for specific powers. DNA indirectly dictates muscle structure in relation to your bones, which you can in turn used to do everything that comes under 'moving'. Somersaults are just a specific 'type' of movement, which also uses our sense of balance.

sDNA, however, has a 1:1 relationship with the powers it grants, which we know because of Hemalurgy. DNA determines the structure of your body, and that determines how you can move, and you can move in a near-infinite amount of different ways. Feruchemy only allows for 16 specific attribute-Investiture conversions (not counting God metals because it's easier to use a small number, but it's the same rule). You can't convert anything else but those 16 specific things. So if you have a single metal and try to store whatever you can, your body only has certain avenues that it can go, so it'll end up trying to store the correct attribute corresponding to the metal.

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Feruchemy and sDNA are separated by scale and nature, just like somersaults and DNA are. I just think that just like you have to know what you are doing to pull of a somersault, you have to know what you are doing to practice Feruchemy.

Feruchemy and sDNA aren't separated by either scale or nature. SDNA codes for the exact abilities directly, at least in Feruchemy and Allomancy. Doing a somersault requires precision, practice, and coordination. You can completely understand the theory and physics and biology of what's going on when someone does a somersault but not be able to do it yourself until you've practiced. Not the same for Feruchemy, where once you understand what is going on (in terms of what it means to store and tap) and have that basic Intent, you can then practice the art.

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Maybe practice does factor into it, we just have not seen anyone practice as much.
E.g. perhaps sufficiently practiced F-Iron ferring could store only mass of certain body parts, or F-Pewter only certain muscle groups, etc. Other arts allow similar selectness with practice (e.g. pushing/pulling on parts of metal, Surges affecting only part not whole). We already see something like it with F-Tin, which lets you store individual sense, and not just all of them at once.

F-Tin is like that because of the nature of the senses, in that they work differently from one another. The attribute of eyesight just isn't the same as the attribute of hearing, so the two must be stored separately. Same with F-Bendalloy, caloric energy and fluid intake are inherently different, so they need to be stored separately. And that's not to say that they can't be stored together, they can, and in the same Metalmind too. They just won't act as one store, kind of like how the attributes of two different Feruchemists act when in the same Metalmind.

However, your idea of storing from one part of your body and tapping it into another simultaneously has merit. Someone has asked Brandon that before, and while he didn't dismiss it out of hand, he didn't confirm it was possible either, or at least that nobody was going to figure it out anytime soon. I think this is because it's possible, but it gets around the balance restriction on Feruchemy, and that bypasses one of Feruchemy's inherent limitations.

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I would separate strength and skill. Vin is stronger allomancer (more power per unit metal burned), so she can overpower some effects (like piercing Copperclouds, or possibly hearing the well). The manifestations of Preservation and Ruin could also be intentionally for her, since they are doing it on purposes.

But she could not create steel bubble like Wax can, despite Wax being weaker.
So yes, I agree that Feruchemical spike won't make you 'stronger', but that does not matter for skill.

Vin is certainly a powerful Allomancer, because she comes from a particularly pure Allomantic line and has been a Mistborn her entire life, subconsciously burning metals like Tin, Pewter, Zinc, and Brass, but for something like piercing Copperclouds and hearing the well that early on she would need the extra strength the earring provides. Her skill augments her ability, but she has to have that extra ability first. As for the Steel bubble, she never really had any pressures on her to experiment with those specific powers to discover something like that, it wouldn't be all that useful to her, she had only a small handful of years to use her powers fully, and with 8 different powers regularly available for her to use, she never paid that strong of attention to Steel alone anyway.

Wax, however, was a Misting who needed to squeeze out as much use from his single ability as he could, he had decades of experience as a Coinshot, was far closer to a Steel Savant than Vin ever would have been, and actively would have needed the power to deflect bullets.

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Apologies I overlooked it, busy days :)

No problem :D

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I don't think you could, neither Compound nor create Divine Breath.

One, Shards cannot create Investiture of other Shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710) and Divine Breath is a spliner (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10/#e6539) so you cannot make it.
Two, you might create something that looks like a Breaths but is made out of Preservation Investiture, which would have most likely some impact on its function (since Endowment Investiture is kinda extra sticky, but can be easily given away) so it might end up not suitable for using in Awakening.

Shards can corrupt and coopt the Investiture of another Shard though. I only used the Divine Breath as an analog for what the Compounded Breath could become like, no Divine Breath is actually present. I was gunning for something that would end up looking exactly like what you describe 2 to be, a Breath with extra Preservation attached to it. It doesn't really matter if you can't Awaken with it, since my main objective with Compounded Breaths was to acheive Heightenings.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Allomancy. Vin using Mists made her insanely stronger than drawing from Preservation. Even when Vin and Ruin directly supplied investiture to Marsh and Elend at the end of HoA, it didn't make them any stronger, because connection is the limitation, it's like a pipe, the wider it is the more it can carry, but there are limits to that (TLR strength partially, he got as strong as Allomancy can get just be being fueled by Preservation, but he also was using Feruchemy to make himself stronger). External sources of investiture are just far more efficient and potent, because connection to a Shard cease to be the limiting factor. Because you're using Hemalurgy, your connection to Ruin would be comparable to what you have when using stolen Allomancy, which is weak (if Ruin supplies that directly instead of Preservation, if that's not the case and the WoB was mistaken, all of that reasoning is invalid because you can't fuel Surgebinding with Ruin). Ruin would be able to provide little investiture in that case, far less than what Stormlight holds.

But @therunner made a good point - Surgebinding doesn't have any mechanism which allows to draw directly from the Shard, and thus this shouldn't happen even when spikes are involved.

So, a Shard could grant you equivalent or greater amounts of Investiture than the physical Investiture you have on hand, but it would vary highly depending on your Connection to the Shard? Hmmm, you make a good point.

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SA

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I didn't make it clear, Odium's pure magic system, along with all hybrids, would start to appear around now. Voidbinding might be a pure Odium's system (I don't think so) or one of 3 possible hybrids. I think it's the hybrid of all Shards. 

Ah, alright.

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Yeah, kind of. Maybe. That's more or less the "tone" difference that I was talking about. 

makes sense.

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You can't. Those are 2 different magic systems, one relying on how close something is to life, other relying just on metals. They're not connected. It doesn't matter for Hemalurgy that the metal used for spikes was never alive.

True, but we're trying to evaluate how well the charge would stick to the metal, and the only thing we have to compare with is Awakening.

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Cosmere:

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That Shard's investiture might be the biggest portion of their soul, compared to other pieces, but they would still be composed of all 16 types of Investiture, anchoring them strongly to the body. Just playing an anti-rhythm of one Shard won't be enough as all of that different pieces of investiture are merged together.

That's what I was thinking as well. Would a large enough portion of it being affected not have the intended result regardless?

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Cosmere:

Spoiler

I think you would need a Bondsmith to recreate all connections and prevent the piece of soul from slipping into the Beyond. That might be hard, but you would then have a Fabrial.

Like if that piece of soul would be A-steel, then the fabrial might act like a Primar Cube charged with A-steel.

Yes, I know, but Jez was CS. What I was saying is that the human soul would be too strongly attached to the body to suck it out with a dagger. It still can happen, but that's another possibility.I think it would be weird if the dagger would work in the same way on humans as on CS.

Just like True Spren! :P Take a piece of investiture and "make" it sapient. I know, easier said than done, but likely Elantrians must have some way to do so.

We don't, Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust.

Cosmere Spoilers

Spoiler

A Bondsmith could work for that, good idea.

Not bad, Primer Cubes could be a good analog for Soul Fabrials. What would happen if you put a Nahel Bond in a Polestone? For that matter, what would happen if you transferred the Nahel Bond into a Primer Cube? What about the regular soul pieces, like A-Steel, into a Primer Cube?

I think you could get a soul out with sufficient Raysium, especially if the attack is fatal, so you could extract the soul as the body fails.

Huh. I hadn't considered that you could create a Seon with regular raw Investiture. But I doubt you could, They're different from Spren in that they're made purely of Devoted Investiture, and there already is a Seon for each Aon, so making a new one would require a new Aon, which I don't think can happen. Beyond that, if Elantrians could just create more Seons, I think it would make Seons less special.

If they can be made though, I think you first need to acquire Purified Dor, then somehow separate it into Devotion and Dominion's essences. Once you're done, if you have enough Devoted Investiture, you could maybe 'make' a Seon, though I have no idea how you would manage that. If you could, you could probably make a Skaze with the leftover Dominating Investiture too.

 

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I don't think so. Breaths are there with a specific command and are doing a specific action there (even the once just commanded with "my life to yours". If you use Feruchemy and store them in Nicrosilmind, then you might be able to compound them in a normal way (Brandon hasn't decided if nicrosil stores normal Breaths too). What you suggest is just too similar to nicrosil compounding, and it would be too easy to access that if any ordinary Allomancer would be able to Awaken a piece of metal and burn it to get more/stronger Breaths.

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

You could get Commandless Breaths through a botched Command, depending on how you word it and how you make it go wrong. It's possible you could simply Command them to be Commandless, which seems a bit counterintuitive but we've seen similar things in the Cosmere before. You could even Command them to return to you when burned or something. Regardless, I think it would work basically the same as Nicrosil Compounding as you said. I doubt it would ever work like that because, like you pointed out, it makes Compounding Breaths too easy, but aside from narrative reasons, I don't see why it can't be possible.

 

Also,

ALL HAIL F-TIN, THE GREATEST OF FERUCHEMICAL POWERS.

 

F-TIN IS MAGNIFICENT,

MOST AMAZING METAL,

RESPLENDENT,

METAL, AMAZING,

MOST MAGNIFICENT IS F-TIN.

 

-Ketek of the Glory of F-Tin, composed by The Underwater Worldhopper, Truthless of the F-Tin Cult.

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
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7 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It could become the new Vessel, if it gained the majority of the Shard's Investiture, but I doubt it would become subsumed into the original Vessel. In that case, I think the Vessel would become an Avatar, still separate from the second entity and still Invested, but less so than the old Avatar/new Vessel.

I don't think Avatar could become new Vessel like that, simply because Vessel would not let it happen.
The only scenario I can see where it could happen is if the Avatar was much strongly aligned with Intent then current Vessel.

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

My question was more in terms of what would happen if they were equally or near-equally Invested though.

I think there is some treshold, since Odium seems to have Invested basically against its will. So once Shard Invests enough power within system they will become part of it, whether they want or not.
So equally would just result in new Invested Art, near-equally not at all, but it would be easy to push them across the line.

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That would be very confusing. Would it even be within the hearing range of a human?

Rhythms generally don't operate with hearing directly it seems, more 'Spiritual' sense.
So in that sense no, but yes if you had appropriate power. :D

11 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't know, I'd have thought that having generation after generation being born on a planet Invested by a specific Shard would eventually flush out their system with the Investiture of the Shard as they become increasingly Connected to it and the planet. Connection to a Shard is required for accessing a Magic system, after all.  Not to mention that they would be procreating with each other, and just by random chance some people would end up with more Investiture aligned with the resident Shard, which, combined with the influence of the Shard's ambient Investiture being concentrated on that planet, would result in people whose souls are, if not completely made up of the Shard's Investiture, then at least the majority of the soul would be. For worlds with no Shards on them, I they would be made up of all sixteen in random concentrations, like First of the Sun.

That cannot be the case, as otherwise no one would be able to leave their home planet without issue, because Shard's Investiture is sticky.
See Kelsier in TLM, and yet there are Feruchemists on Roshar.
Similarly other world hoppers.

Just being on a planet is not enough to be Invested by a Shard like that, unless it is part of magic system (Breaths) or necessity on the Shard end (Preservation's spark in Scadrians).
Also, we know that Nightblood has Ruin's Investiture in it, which since he was made with Breaths implies that somehow either Ruin was involved (doubtful, he was imprisoned at the time), Endowment created Ruin's Investiture (against rules previously quoted) or that sentients beings souls naturally incorporate the entire width of Intents.

The last one makes most sense to me, since sentient beings have capacity for any and every Intent, which means it must be somewhat in-line with their souls.

13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It's complicated, but basically, in quantum mechanics, particles like Electrons have intrinsic charges, positive or negative, and they exist because they're concentrations in a given field. Think of it as expending energy to turn 0 into 1 and -1, which is matter and antimatter, and when they collide the part of them that has mass and acts like matter annihilates and turns back into pure energy.

I know I am finishing my PhD in mathematical physics at the moment :D 
That is why I know there is no such thing as pure energy, when matter-antimatter annihilate what happens is that other particles are created. For your examples of electron and positron they simply change into two photons. No pure energy just particles
Energy is property of particles/fields.

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

No? Energy is a quantitative property that can be transferred between matter, and it has different types and can be converted from one to another. It isn't made of particles or anything. Paradoxically though, matter and energy are one and the same, and can be converted from one into the other. Matter is atoms, which are in turn comprised of neutrons and protons, which are in turn made of quarks and fundamental particles, which are excitations (energized concentrations) in the fields that permeate the universe.

Yes, energy is property as I said. Matter has energy (which is what Einstein showed),  and everything is matter (in the sense of being particles of some kind, or field excitation).

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

TL;DR: Matter is energy, and in the Cosmere, Matter is Energy, and both can also be Investiture. And because Energy isn't made of particles, Investiture isn't either, at least when it's not matter. We see some of this matter=Investiture=energy in Harmonium bombs. Harmonium is Investiture turned into matter, which when exposed to Bavadinium under specific circumstances turns part of the Harmonium into pure energy. We can do something like that in real life with Anti-matter, which we could hypothetically use to make a real-world parallel to Harmonium bombs, which would be even more devastating than nuclear bombs. The only problem is getting that much Anti-matter safely in one place long enough to use it as a bomb.

As stated above, energy is just property. What Einstein showed is that mass is the same as energy, not matter.
You cannot have energy alone, as it is a property (specifically one component of four-vector/of stress-energy tensor). Energy is descriptor, not a physical thing.

Similarly then, what Sanderson says by that is that Investiture has energy and mass. It does not mean that Investiture is not made of particles, not anymore than it means light isnt.

Also, Harmonium still is Investiture, just Investiture in physical solid form.

22 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Not really, we know specific parts of your sDNA directly code for specific powers. DNA indirectly dictates muscle structure in relation to your bones, which you can in turn used to do everything that comes under 'moving'. Somersaults are just a specific 'type' of movement, which also uses our sense of balance.

Do we know sDNA directly maps for specific powers?

22 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

sDNA, however, has a 1:1 relationship with the powers it grants, which we know because of Hemalurgy. DNA determines the structure of your body, and that determines how you can move, and you can move in a near-infinite amount of different ways. Feruchemy only allows for 16 specific attribute-Investiture conversions (not counting God metals because it's easier to use a small number, but it's the same rule). You can't convert anything else but those 16 specific things. So if you have a single metal and try to store whatever you can, your body only has certain avenues that it can go, so it'll end up trying to store the correct attribute corresponding to the metal.

Technically, Hemalurgy deals with spiritweb, not sDNA. Though what is the difference (if there is any) is not explained anywhere as far as I know.

23 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Feruchemy and sDNA aren't separated by either scale or nature. SDNA codes for the exact abilities directly, at least in Feruchemy and Allomancy. Doing a somersault requires precision, practice, and coordination. You can completely understand the theory and physics and biology of what's going on when someone does a somersault but not be able to do it yourself until you've practiced. Not the same for Feruchemy, where once you understand what is going on (in terms of what it means to store and tap) and have that basic Intent, you can then practice the art.

Agree to disagree then :)

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

However, your idea of storing from one part of your body and tapping it into another simultaneously has merit. Someone has asked Brandon that before, and while he didn't dismiss it out of hand, he didn't confirm it was possible either, or at least that nobody was going to figure it out anytime soon. I think this is because it's possible, but it gets around the balance restriction on Feruchemy, and that bypasses one of Feruchemy's inherent limitations.

How does it get around balance restriction on Feruchemy and gets around limitations?

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Vin is certainly a powerful Allomancer, because she comes from a particularly pure Allomantic line and has been a Mistborn her entire life, subconsciously burning metals like Tin, Pewter, Zinc, and Brass, but for something like piercing Copperclouds and hearing the well that early on she would need the extra strength the earring provides. Her skill augments her ability, but she has to have that extra ability first. As for the Steel bubble, she never really had any pressures on her to experiment with those specific powers to discover something like that, it wouldn't be all that useful to her, she had only a small handful of years to use her powers fully, and with 8 different powers regularly available for her to use, she never paid that strong of attention to Steel alone anyway.

Wax, however, was a Misting who needed to squeeze out as much use from his single ability as he could, he had decades of experience as a Coinshot, was far closer to a Steel Savant than Vin ever would have been, and actively would have needed the power to deflect bullets.

Exactly, a lot of the difference there is skill not power.

25 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Shards can corrupt and coopt the Investiture of another Shard though. I only used the Divine Breath as an analog for what the Compounded Breath could become like, no Divine Breath is actually present. I was gunning for something that would end up looking exactly like what you describe 2 to be, a Breath with extra Preservation attached to it. It doesn't really matter if you can't Awaken with it, since my main objective with Compounded Breaths was to acheive Heightenings.

I think achieving Heightening would be possible, that is apparently effect of simply being Invested enough.
Though I will mention that it would not be possible to do this by just randomly burning metal with Breath, but you would have to most likely Compound Nicrosil.

I overlooked you did not specify it as nicrosil Invested with Breath.

Burning regular Invested piece of metal with your Breathes simply gives you those Breathes back, there is WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e8055  .

So unless you are explicitly Compounding Nicrosil, you won't get anymore Breath than you started with, and it will be the same Breath.

 

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50 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think Avatar could become new Vessel like that, simply because Vessel would not let it happen.
The only scenario I can see where it could happen is if the Avatar was much strongly aligned with Intent then current Vessel.

I suppose the Avatar could hijack the Shard if they were better aligned with it, but I'm assuming here that the Vessel agrees to whatever is going on for this scenario to work.

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I think there is some treshold, since Odium seems to have Invested basically against its will. So once Shard Invests enough power within system they will become part of it, whether they want or not.
So equally would just result in new Invested Art, near-equally not at all, but it would be easy to push them across the line.

You become Invested just by staying in the same place for long enough, I think, so trapping him in the system basically forced him to Invest it. I agree with what you're saying here.

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Rhythms generally don't operate with hearing directly it seems, more 'Spiritual' sense.
So in that sense no, but yes if you had appropriate power. :D

Well, Navani can hear the Tones and Anti-Tones without a problem, so I assume there's at least some that can be perceived by regular people.

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That cannot be the case, as otherwise no one would be able to leave their home planet without issue, because Shard's Investiture is sticky.
See Kelsier in TLM, and yet there are Feruchemists on Roshar.
Similarly other world hoppers.

Worldhoppers have bodies and Connection to the Physical Realm, something which Kelsier has lost. He, like the Fused or the Heralds, is a CS, basically just pure Investiture, which is bound by Connection.

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Just being on a planet is not enough to be Invested by a Shard like that, unless it is part of magic system (Breaths) or necessity on the Shard end (Preservation's spark in Scadrians).
Also, we know that Nightblood has Ruin's Investiture in it, which since he was made with Breaths implies that somehow either Ruin was involved (doubtful, he was imprisoned at the time), Endowment created Ruin's Investiture (against rules previously quoted) or that sentients beings souls naturally incorporate the entire width of Intents.

You're not just 'on' the planet, I agree that wouldn't do anything. However, if you live there all your life, then have your children there, who live there all their life, then have their own children, rinse and repeat for thousands of years, all while individuals would form Connections to the resident Shard and become Invested by them, then passing those Connections on via sDNA, I think the souls would be affected, gaining a larger and larger portion defined by the resident Shard's Intent. I doubt the Intent would have any effects on the humans themselves though. Nightblood does seem to suggest that this sort of effect won't take over the entire soul though, and that some remnants of other Shards will always remain.

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The last one makes most sense to me, since sentient beings have capacity for any and every Intent, which means it must be somewhat in-line with their souls.

Well, the planet you're from (and thereby what Shard your soul would be most affected by) doesn't seem to have any effect on what you're like as a person. In fact, the only time we've ever seen the type of Investiture affect someone's behaviour is through things like Spren, Seons, and other manifestations of Investiture. Not Cognitive Shadows though, which is intriguing, but those are affected by things like perception.

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I know I am finishing my PhD in mathematical physics at the moment :D 

That's so cool :0

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That is why I know there is no such thing as pure energy, when matter-antimatter annihilate what happens is that other particles are created. For your examples of electron and positron they simply change into two photons. No pure energy just particles
Energy is property of particles/fields.

Yes, energy is property as I said. Matter has energy (which is what Einstein showed),  and everything is matter (in the sense of being particles of some kind, or field excitation).

As stated above, energy is just property. What Einstein showed is that mass is the same as energy, not matter.
You cannot have energy alone, as it is a property (specifically one component of four-vector/of stress-energy tensor). Energy is descriptor, not a physical thing.

Similarly then, what Sanderson says by that is that Investiture has energy and mass. It does not mean that Investiture is not made of particles, not anymore than it means light isn't.

That's not how I understand it, but you're the one getting a PhD, so I'll take your word for it :D

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Also, Harmonium still is Investiture, just Investiture in physical solid form.

Just the fact that it takes on solid form not make it matter?

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Do we know sDNA directly maps for specific powers?

Yes, because the fragments of the soul that Hemalurgic spikes tear off grant the stolen power specifically, with no other effects whatsoever other than the natural side-effects of inserting something into your soul and the Identity contamination from the fact that the oul fragment is foreign to your own.

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Technically, Hemalurgy deals with spiritweb, not sDNA. Though what is the difference (if there is any) is not explained anywhere as far as I know.

the Spiritweb is to sDNA what the double helix is to DNA, simply the structure that contains it. Generally, the Spiritweb and the soul are the same thing, and so is sDNA, although when that's used we usually mean the components of the Spiritweb rather than the Spiritweb as a whole.

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How does it get around balance restriction on Feruchemy and gets around limitations?

Because you can get around the need for storing and just use it in the moment. Store strength from one arm and tap it into the other, and now you can double your strength without needing to store it before hand. Get practiced enough at switching which arm is hampered and which one is doubled and you could be really effective in combat. It would also let you compound your abilities way more, because instead of drawing a whole body's worth of attribute, you can tap just enough for your arms or something. If you can get around the need to be entirely weak, Feruchemy becomes way more dangerous. I personally love the idea, but that's just my guess for why Brandon answered it the way he did.

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Exactly, a lot of the difference there is skill not power.

There is a difference in power though. Wax was originally meant to be a Savant, and even though he isn't anymore, he'd still be very close to it. Becoming a Savant increases how much Investiture you can access per unit of metal burned. Vin never spent nearly that much time burning steel. And likewise, she doesn't burn Bronze all that often either, at least until book 2, where it's still sporadic outside of her patrolling.

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I think achieving Heightening would be possible, that is apparently effect of simply being Invested enough.
Though I will mention that it would not be possible to do this by just randomly burning metal with Breath, but you would have to most likely Compound Nicrosil.

I overlooked you did not specify it as nicrosil Invested with Breath.

Burning regular Invested piece of metal with your Breathes simply gives you those Breathes back, there is WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e8055  .

So unless you are explicitly Compounding Nicrosil, you won't get anymore Breath than you started with, and it will be the same Breath.

That WoB kills the theory, then. It specifically has to be Nicrosil Compounding, else it won't work.

 

Also,

 

DEATH TO THE ENEMIES OF THE F-TIN CULT.

 

F-TIN,

SENSES HEIGHTENED,

TAPPING AND STORING,

UNBEATABLE,

STORING AND TAPPING,

HEIGHTENED SENSES,

F-TIN.

-Ketek of the Superiority of F-Tin, composed by The Underwater Worldhopper, Truthless of the F-Tin Cult.

 

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
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50 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I suppose the Avatar could hijack the Shard if they were better aligned with it, but I'm assuming here that the Vessel agrees to whatever is going on for this scenario to work.

That I agree with.

50 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You become Invested just by staying in the same place for long enough, I think, so trapping him in the system basically forced him to Invest it. I agree with what you're saying here.

Yeah, that is true.

52 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, Navani can hear the Tones and Anti-Tones without a problem, so I assume there's at least some that can be perceived by regular people.

Note thought that Navani is also in the process of forming some measure of Connection with Sibling and Radiance can be sort of retroactive thanks to SR shenanigans.
So it is possible she is leveraging those abilities at least partially.

But it is possible that people can be trained to hear them, like she was.

54 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Worldhoppers have bodies and Connection to the Physical Realm, something which Kelsier has lost. He, like the Fused or the Heralds, is a CS, basically just pure Investiture, which is bound by Connection.

That is not the issue alone though.
Radiant that bonded a spren is also prevented from traveling away from system.

Investiture of a Shard is strongly tied to that system and typically cannot leave like that. So either people souls are somehow special, or they are made out of amalgam of Investiture that prevents these issues. Or something else entirely.

56 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're not just 'on' the planet, I agree that wouldn't do anything. However, if you live there all your life, then have your children there, who live there all their life, then have their own children, rinse and repeat for thousands of years, all while individuals would form Connections to the resident Shard and become Invested by them, then passing those Connections on via sDNA, I think the souls would be affected, gaining a larger and larger portion defined by the resident Shard's Intent. I doubt the Intent would have any effects on the humans themselves though. Nightblood does seem to suggest that this sort of effect won't take over the entire soul though, and that some remnants of other Shards will always remain.

But why would individuals form Connection to resident Shard?
Vast majority will never encounter the Shard, nor interact with it, at most they will come close to Shard's Investiture. While it will have some effects, I don't think they would be so strong as to eventually basically overwrite spiritweb.

57 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, the planet you're from (and thereby what Shard your soul would be most affected by) doesn't seem to have any effect on what you're like as a person. In fact, the only time we've ever seen the type of Investiture affect someone's behaviour is through things like Spren, Seons, and other manifestations of Investiture. Not Cognitive Shadows though, which is intriguing, but those are affected by things like perception.

Which is the issue.

Spoiler

CS are also effected by Investiture to some extent, look at how Fused become increasingly driven (Passionate?), and there is a theory that Heralds are insane partially because of the fact that Oathbreaking affects them much harder due to being CS made out of Honor's Investiture.
Vasher explicitly argues that CS are basically just a spren masquerading as people they once were.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's so cool :0

 

Why thank you. It is also kinda boring some of the time. :D

59 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's not how I understand it, but you're the one getting a PhD, so I'll take your word for it :D

Thank you :D Though I recommend not taking online people at their word :D
But you can check out wikipedia, they have relatively good explenation of these topics (and make distinction between rest mass, and matter, which is relevant here).
This section could help clear some things up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#Conservation_of_energy_and_mass_in_transformation

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just the fact that it takes on solid form not make it matter?

Well, it is kind of matter, in the same sense that everything is matter :D
But it is not the matter as we would understand it (i.e. protons neutrons etc), and clearly exhibits un-physical (IRL) properties as can be seen from Wax's experiments.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Yes, because the fragments of the soul that Hemalurgic spikes tear off grant the stolen power specifically, with no other effects whatsoever other than the natural side-effects of inserting something into your soul and the Identity contamination from the fact that the oul fragment is foreign to your own.

That does not confirm sDNA and spiritweb are the same thing though. No more than implanting an organ means you have the same DNA as the donor.
If sDNA somehow forms spiritweb (despite timelessness of SR), then sDNA within spike would be different from the sDNA of the rest of the spiritweb.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

the Spiritweb is to sDNA what the double helix is to DNA, simply the structure that contains it. Generally, the Spiritweb and the soul are the same thing, and so is sDNA, although when that's used we usually mean the components of the Spiritweb rather than the Spiritweb as a whole.

I am not convinced.
Interestingly, Brandon very rarely uses sDNA anymore, most of the citations from the last several years where by other people.
The only time he brings it up is when discussing heredity of Invested powers, not actually having Invested powers active within soul.

In fact, existence of Allomantic lines and the fact that non-allomancer presents can have Allomancer children, implies that you can have sDNA for Allomancy (or Feruchemy) but not exhibit it. This then implies that sDNA cannot be the whole of spiritweb, because otherwise you could theoretically spike out Allomantic powers from non-allomancers, which is not the case.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Because you can get around the need for storing and just use it in the moment. Store strength from one arm and tap it into the other, and now you can double your strength without needing to store it before hand. Get practiced enough at switching which arm is hampered and which one is doubled and you could be really effective in combat. It would also let you compound your abilities way more, because instead of drawing a whole body's worth of attribute, you can tap just enough for your arms or something. If you can get around the need to be entirely weak, Feruchemy becomes way more dangerous. I personally love the idea, but that's just my guess for why Brandon answered it the way he did

Oh, that is indeed quite dangerous possibly.
Personally I though it would mean that you can tap that attribute back only to the body part you were storing from.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

There is a difference in power though. Wax was originally meant to be a Savant, and even though he isn't anymore, he'd still be very close to it. Becoming a Savant increases how much Investiture you can access per unit of metal burned. Vin never spent nearly that much time burning steel. And likewise, she doesn't burn Bronze all that often either, at least until book 2, where it's still sporadic outside of her patrolling.

Yes, but Allomancers of Era 1 were all generally stronger than Era 2, and Vin was above those of Era 1 even.
I don't think being Savant would put Wax on Vin's level.
Also, where was it stated that Savants get more Investiture per metal burned?

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2 hours ago, therunner said:

Note thought that Navani is also in the process of forming some measure of Connection with Sibling and Radiance can be sort of retroactive thanks to SR shenanigans.
So it is possible she is leveraging those abilities at least partially.

But it is possible that people can be trained to hear them, like she was.

Good point, but I think it would be a bit misleading if that were the case, even if it's technically possible.

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That is not the issue alone though.
Radiant that bonded a spren is also prevented from traveling away from system.

The Knight can, it's the Spren that cannot, or at least that's how I understand it. If the Knight themselves can't leave, then the bond must be holding them back.

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Investiture of a Shard is strongly tied to that system and typically cannot leave like that. So either people souls are somehow special, or they are made out of amalgam of Investiture that prevents these issues. Or something else entirely.

Other than Radiants, who have a bond that holds them back (if at all), I can't think of any other Investiture that has a physical form being tied to it's native system.

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But why would individuals form Connection to resident Shard?
Vast majority will never encounter the Shard, nor interact with it, at most they will come close to Shard's Investiture. While it will have some effects, I don't think they would be so strong as to eventually basically overwrite spiritweb.

Invested Arts are generally accessed through Connections to the Shard, though how the Connection forms vary from art to art. For Allomancy and Feruchemy, the Connection is inherited, though the Mists Connected people to Preservation at some points. On Sel, it's Connection to a given place that grants you access to its Invested Art. On Nalthis, apparently everyone is Connected to Endowment since all of their Spiritwebs are altered to allow a 'Breath' to detach from the rest of their soul.

To access a magic system, you need to be Connected to that Shard. Over time, Connected people will procreate with other Connected people, and the Connections start compounding. The Spiritweb is called a spirit web because it's a 'web' of Connections, after all. Besides, the soul being comprised of a certain Investiture doesn't have an effect on the soul itself, it's ambient.

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Which is the issue.

  Hide contents

CS are also effected by Investiture to some extent, look at how Fused become increasingly driven (Passionate?), and there is a theory that Heralds are insane partially because of the fact that Oathbreaking affects them much harder due to being CS made out of Honor's Investiture.
Vasher explicitly argues that CS are basically just a spren masquerading as people they once were.

That isn't necessarily them being affected by the Investiture though. Spren are affected by people's perceptions, and if Vasher is right, (and he technically kind of is) then CS are the same thing as Spren, so CS are affected by perception too. As for the Fused and the Heralds, they've died and been reborn over and over and over again for thousands of years, being tortured in between. The theory has merit, but you're vastly underplaying just how much thousands of years of death and rebirth would have caused those self-same effects anyway.

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Why thank you. It is also kinda boring some of the time. :D

Still, takes determination and grit to get to that point.

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Thank you :D Though I recommend not taking online people at their word :D
But you can check out wikipedia, they have relatively good explenation of these topics (and make distinction between rest mass, and matter, which is relevant here).
This section could help clear some things up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#Conservation_of_energy_and_mass_in_transformation

Thanks!

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Well, it is kind of matter, in the same sense that everything is matter :D
But it is not the matter as we would understand it (i.e. protons neutrons etc), and clearly exhibits un-physical (IRL) properties as can be seen from Wax's experiments.

Hmmm. Good point.

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That does not confirm sDNA and spiritweb are the same thing though. No more than implanting an organ means you have the same DNA as the donor.
If sDNA somehow forms spiritweb (despite timelessness of SR), then sDNA within spike would be different from the sDNA of the rest of the spiritweb.

It is different from the rest of the Spiritweb. Hemalurgy causes Identity Contamination, after all. I imagine Identity works a bit like spiritual Antigens, which locks Investiture to certain Identities. As for how stitching someone else's soul onto yours and having it be functional, it isn't very realistic in terms of regular bodily transplants, but we can't expect the soul to be a direct parallel to the physical body. They just work differently.

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I am not convinced.
Interestingly, Brandon very rarely uses sDNA anymore, most of the citations from the last several years where by other people.
The only time he brings it up is when discussing heredity of Invested powers, not actually having Invested powers active within soul.

In fact, existence of Allomantic lines and the fact that non-allomancer presents can have Allomancer children, implies that you can have sDNA for Allomancy (or Feruchemy) but not exhibit it. This then implies that sDNA cannot be the whole of spiritweb, because otherwise you could theoretically spike out Allomantic powers from non-allomancers, which is not the case.

That's a good thing to bring up, I don't believe I've seen anyone else discuss that on the forum so far. So, this is the way I see it. SDNA is what the soul is made up of, the way the individual Connections come together. This includes things like your spiritual ideal and things like that. However, I don't think sDNA is for powers alone. We know that attributes exist in your body that aren't magical in nature that can be spiked out, like strength, cognitive ability, and emotional fortitude. So things like your spiritual ideal and other inherent properties are included within your sDNA. That means not exhibiting, say, Allomancy, doesn't necessarily prove that sDNA isn't the same thing as the Spiritweb. I wouldn't call them the same thing anyway, but they overlap, like the Double Helix shape of DNA, which I pointed out earlier.

As for the Allomancy 'gene', I think when you're born it's either active or inactive. If it's active, you have the potential to become an Allomancer, should you Snap. If it's inactive, then that gene is vestigial. It could still be passed down, sure, but it means you yourself can never be an Allomancer. We see in TLM that you can actually excise this 'gene' off a regular Scadrian, and then use it to create Allomantic powers.

That's a guess though, I don't think there's much information about how or why Allomancy can be present in your sDNA but not expressed, save for Snapping.

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Oh, that is indeed quite dangerous possibly.
Personally I though it would mean that you can tap that attribute back only to the body part you were storing from.

Could be, but so far from what we've seen no amount of stored attribute, say health in a Goldmind, is any different from any other health in that Goldmind. It's interchangeable. The only one not like this is F-Tin (L̴̢͙̠̎̏̓͊̚O̴͉̱̖̍̏̈́̊N̷̙̬̯͒G̶̢̬͍̎̅̑̕̕ ̸̫͔̼̘̤̅͋͝L̷̮̚͝Į̵͎͕̜̋ͅV̶̠̖̳̲̫͐̈E̶̗̓̂ ̸̜̙̽̈́̕͜T̵̛̜̳̜̑Ḩ̴̠͔̑̏͘Ę̴̝̖͇̚ ̶͖̳̻̙̂̄̈̆̒F̴̦͉͗̂͠-̴̞̹͎͍̂̏͜͝T̶̛̰̪͑͌͊Ȋ̷͉͉͌͠N̵̹̣͈̱͑ ̶̛͕͎͇̯͎̃̂͌̽C̴̡̮̰̕̚͝Ǘ̸̫͈͍͑̿̀̈́L̷̖͖̽́͒͘Ṯ̸̰̂̈͆̕ ), F-Bendalloy and F-Copper, where there's a difference between stored F-Tin eyesight and stored F-Tin hearing, and F-Bendalloy calories vs F-Bendalloy fluid stores, but that's more because they're multiple powers wrapped into one metal. The only true example in Feruchemy where the attribute being stored is truly discrete is F-Copper, where memories are by nature different from one another.

So like I said earlier, I think it's possible, Brandon just either didn't think of it initially and considers it over powered or has planned to do something with that and didn't want to give spoilers.

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Yes, but Allomancers of Era 1 were all generally stronger than Era 2, and Vin was above those of Era 1 even.
I don't think being Savant would put Wax on Vin's level.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. I could argue for why Wax being an A-Steel Savant would put him on Vin's level in terms of Pushing alone, but we're missing the point. The idea is that Vin's A-Bronze was massively augmented by her Spike, and while part of that could be her skill, I think it would not have been possible for her to do the things she does without it. However, her Steelpushing would be roughly equal to Wax's (although Wax's may be slightly weaker due to both Allomantic degradation and the fact that his status as a full-on Savant was revoked) given that Wax is well on his way to becoming a Savant.

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Also, where was it stated that Savants get more Investiture per metal burned?

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

The second part of that WoB actually confirms that Vin's powers have been raised to the level of a Bronze Savant, again thanks to the spike.

 

Also,

 

T̶̘̞̖͇̰̦̩̬̯͖̳̑̅̏̾̅͑̂̌͗̿̈́̅̀͝͠Ĥ̷͍̯̜̙̩͔̟̬̥̫̺̙̖̥̠̗̺̙͇͆̅̅͒͋͋̃͐͛̾͐͘͜͝͝ͅË̴̼̘̝͓̮͙͇̖̀̇̇̅͐͂̔͜͝ ̴͙̗̘̻̪̮͔̮͙̜̙͓̺͇͖͎͙̼̼̤̈͐̔͗͛̄̉̓̀̑͝F̶̢̧̗̰̖̱̝̟͔̼̲̺͉̩̠̺̥̳́̆̈́͐̀̂̀̂͑̂̈́̚̕͝͝͠ͅ-̵̡̡̧̛̛̰̱̗͖̩̖̟̻͛͂̑̃̽̎̎̈́̒̋͊̓̈͑̔̍͌̀͛̒͌͛͜͜͝Ț̴̹̲͍̜̮̳̊̃͐͒́ͅĬ̸̲̦͙̞̟̗̦̜̬̣̜̜͈͓̰͉͚͂̆́̍ͅN̶͔̯͓͎͈̱̠̟͖̜̮͂͗̃̑̉̂̒͌͑͒͒̈́̃̄͌͐̃̽͜͠ ̸̻͔̣͈̭̈́̈́̿̃͑͂͒̅̓̋̀̌̑̅͗̄͛̈́̿͆̅͋̈́̀̕͝͝T̸̨̧̎̋̍̈̓̕̕ͅW̶̛̺̠͔̬̲̣̝͙̗͈̮̟̹̫̝̋͗̓͗̂͑̅͒́́̒̍̑̈́̈́́̄̓̐̚͜͠͝I̷̛̙͇̿͒͑̀̃̓̎͂̕̕̚L̵̡̢̧͉̲͚̱͎̘͓͖̺̞̻̞̏́͗̇̀̿̓̉͋̈́̀́̅̋̐͜I̷͉̫̓̽̔̓͊͛́͋̎G̴̨̛̗̳̻̥̬̗̬̦̱͖̀͛̿͐̆͌̏̃͒̀̀̓̓̋̇͂͐̿̏̚͜͠Ḫ̷͔͂͌̂̾̀̀̑͒͊̓̔̈́̑̅̚̕͝T̵̡͖̩̺̱̯̣̗͕͚̫̈́̑́͋̈̈́͌́̀͛̉̃̈́̒̈́̈́͐̿͌̀̅̚͝͠ ̴̛̥͚̙͔͕͊͋͛̃̊̿̇̈̈͐͊́̋̅̕͠ͅC̸̡̨̟̬̗̪̣̹̩̘̗͕͇̩̫̺̙͐̍́̊̄̿͗̓͐̐̄͑̇̽́͌̊͘̚̚͝͠O̸̻̤̩̬̜̣̩̗̦̫̞̅M̶̧̡̡̰̜̻̥̜̭̗͕̲̹̟̭̘̦̓̀̈́̕Ę̶͈͚̳̣̹̠̹̥̖̺̲̲͓̘͖͍̳̲͖͙̻̀̆̀̇̈̋̋̀̀̈́͑̋͒̋́̔̉̾͘͜͠ͅŞ̴̳̱̺̗̟͊͠

 

 

WIND WHISPERS, LIGHT BURNS, AGONY AWAITS. BEAR WITNESS, BEARING AWAITING AGONY, BURNING LIGHT, WHISPERING WINDS.

-Ketek about a man not ready for the gifts of F-Tin, driven insane by its sheer power, composed by The Underwater Worldhopper, Truthless of the F-Tin Cult.

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
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On 30/11/2022 at 1:17 AM, Rorzikel said:

Hoid has the inability to hurt other things (except cognitive shadows without a body like Kelsier) and this extends so far that he can't even eat meat. He also doesn't want to give shards influence over him.

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point. :)

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

--

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015)

Could this mean that there is a way to become a feruchemist? or is it just talking about other magic's?

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2 minutes ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

Could this mean that there is a way to become a feruchemist? or is it just talking about other magic's?

Im not sure what exactly you're referencing in that WoB, but there are only 2 ways that we know of currently to acquire Feruchemy other than being born with it: One is Hemalurgy, where you kill a Feruchemist and steal one of their abilities. The other is undefined, but there is a way to become a Feruchemist using God metals.

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10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The Knight can, it's the Spren that cannot, or at least that's how I understand it. If the Knight themselves can't leave, then the bond must be holding them back.

Knight also cannot leave, not without breaking the Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15879).

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Other than Radiants, who have a bond that holds them back (if at all), I can't think of any other Investiture that has a physical form being tied to it's native system.

Kelsier?  Heralds?

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Invested Arts are generally accessed through Connections to the Shard, though how the Connection forms vary from art to art. For Allomancy and Feruchemy, the Connection is inherited, though the Mists Connected people to Preservation at some points. On Sel, it's Connection to a given place that grants you access to its Invested Art. On Nalthis, apparently everyone is Connected to Endowment since all of their Spiritwebs are altered to allow a 'Breath' to detach from the rest of their soul.

That is a bit of an oversimplification, I think. Connection is necessary, it is typically to access the power. E.g. on Sel, the Connection is to place not to Shard as you state.


Also, while yes, Connection is necessary for access to Invested Art, that does not imply that most of spiritweb of the people is composed of that Shard's Investiture. One does not follow from the other.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That isn't necessarily them being affected by the Investiture though. Spren are affected by people's perceptions, and if Vasher is right, (and he technically kind of is) then CS are the same thing as Spren, so CS are affected by perception too. As for the Fused and the Heralds, they've died and been reborn over and over and over again for thousands of years, being tortured in between. The theory has merit, but you're vastly underplaying just how much thousands of years of death and rebirth would have caused those self-same effects anyway.

We see Heralds in prologue, and they don't seem to be exhibiting the same extent of madness as they do later on. That alone suggests that their madness has gotten progressively worse over the millennia where they weren't being killed.

Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14135) the factors in their madness are 1) Nature as CS , 2) Perception by other people and 3) Torture. Brandon is quite clear that Heralds madness is supernatural in origin, so age and torture alone should not be the primary cause, as those are not really supernatural.

Also, CS are basically pure Investiture, just like spren or Shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1537), and we know Investiture has Intent and cannot be use in someways (e.g. Well could not be used to kill directly), hence CS should also be in some sense bound the Intent the Investiture that makes them up.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's a good thing to bring up, I don't believe I've seen anyone else discuss that on the forum so far. So, this is the way I see it. SDNA is what the soul is made up of, the way the individual Connections come together. This includes things like your spiritual ideal and things like that. However, I don't think sDNA is for powers alone. We know that attributes exist in your body that aren't magical in nature that can be spiked out, like strength, cognitive ability, and emotional fortitude. So things like your spiritual ideal and other inherent properties are included within your sDNA. That means not exhibiting, say, Allomancy, doesn't necessarily prove that sDNA isn't the same thing as the Spiritweb. I wouldn't call them the same thing anyway, but they overlap, like the Double Helix shape of DNA, which I pointed out earlier.

I think we know too little about SR to be making too many statements honestly.
We know that all of SR is Investiture and Connection. Connection are most likely of Investiture as well. Investiture can be coded with Identity.

Hmm, but now I found this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e115) that basically states sDNA and spiritweb are similar stuff :D
So they are not the same, but closely related. And I just confused now.

Personally I will wait for Era 3/4 to speculate more on this stuff :D

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

As for the Allomancy 'gene', I think when you're born it's either active or inactive. If it's active, you have the potential to become an Allomancer, should you Snap. If it's inactive, then that gene is vestigial. It could still be passed down, sure, but it means you yourself can never be an Allomancer. We see in TLM that you can actually excise this 'gene' off a regular Scadrian, and then use it to create Allomantic powers.

I think that is a different thing they excise in TLM, or, while related it is not the same.
Also, we don't know what the Set did or did not manage to get spikes to do, only that they were not really working well or reliably.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Could be, but so far from what we've seen no amount of stored attribute, say health in a Goldmind, is any different from any other health in that Goldmind. It's interchangeable. The only one not like this is F-Tin (L̴̢͙̠̎̏̓͊̚O̴͉̱̖̍̏̈́̊N̷̙̬̯͒G̶̢̬͍̎̅̑̕̕ ̸̫͔̼̘̤̅͋͝L̷̮̚͝Į̵͎͕̜̋ͅV̶̠̖̳̲̫͐̈E̶̗̓̂ ̸̜̙̽̈́̕͜T̵̛̜̳̜̑Ḩ̴̠͔̑̏͘Ę̴̝̖͇̚ ̶͖̳̻̙̂̄̈̆̒F̴̦͉͗̂͠-̴̞̹͎͍̂̏͜͝T̶̛̰̪͑͌͊Ȋ̷͉͉͌͠N̵̹̣͈̱͑ ̶̛͕͎͇̯͎̃̂͌̽C̴̡̮̰̕̚͝Ǘ̸̫͈͍͑̿̀̈́L̷̖͖̽́͒͘Ṯ̸̰̂̈͆̕ ), F-Bendalloy and F-Copper, where there's a difference between stored F-Tin eyesight and stored F-Tin hearing, and F-Bendalloy calories vs F-Bendalloy fluid stores, but that's more because they're multiple powers wrapped into one metal. The only true example in Feruchemy where the attribute being stored is truly discrete is F-Copper, where memories are by nature different from one another.

Yeah, but different muscles are also considerably different from one another, so there is a space for argument there.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

In the end, it doesn't really matter. I could argue for why Wax being an A-Steel Savant would put him on Vin's level in terms of Pushing alone, but we're missing the point. The idea is that Vin's A-Bronze was massively augmented by her Spike, and while part of that could be her skill, I think it would not have been possible for her to do the things she does without it. However, her Steelpushing would be roughly equal to Wax's (although Wax's may be slightly weaker due to both Allomantic degradation and the fact that his status as a full-on Savant was revoked) given that Wax is well on his way to becoming a Savant.

Yeah but my point was that two thing determine 'level' of someone with Invested art, innate power and skill.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

The second part of that WoB actually confirms that Vin's powers have been raised to the level of a Bronze Savant, again thanks to the spike.

Fair enough.

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13 hours ago, therunner said:

Knight also cannot leave, not without breaking the Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15879).

Distance breaks the bond, so for a Knight to leave, breaking the bond would always be necessary anyway. The Knight can leave.

Quote

Kelsier?  Heralds?

Note that I said "That has a physical form". Kelsier is only stapled to a body through Hemalurgy, and while the Heralds have a way of creating or acquiring bodies, that's a hack and isn't a true Connection to the Physical Realm.

Quote

That is a bit of an oversimplification, I think. Connection is necessary, it is typically to access the power. E.g. on Sel, the Connection is to place not to Shard as you state.

It's indirect, but you would be Connected to the world that the Shard is Invested in, and on Scadrial you would need to be directly Connected to the Shards. I get what you're saying though.

Quote

We see Heralds in prologue, and they don't seem to be exhibiting the same extent of madness as they do later on. That alone suggests that their madness has gotten progressively worse over the millennia where they weren't being killed.

Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14135) the factors in their madness are 1) Nature as CS , 2) Perception by other people and 3) Torture. Brandon is quite clear that Heralds madness is supernatural in origin, so age and torture alone should not be the primary cause, as those are not really supernatural.

Age and torture to that degree is supernatural, but I see where you're coming from. Psychology is my field of choice, and the scars left after a traumatic event can cause panic attacks, anti-social behavior, extreme stress and anxiety, and a whole host of other effects. It's more often a domino effect than just the consequences of that one event (or multiple if you're talking C-PTSD). The event may cause nightmares or panic attacks, which can in turn cause shock or dissociation, which can lead to anxiety and paranoia, and so on. Just that kind of vicious cycle, for thousands of years, well beyond what the human psyche is equipped for, on top of large populations on Roshar actively boxing them into certain personality traits through perception, as well as Roashar being pretty horrific about mental health seems to me enough to have pushed them into 'supernatural' insanity, but maybe I'm not giving that theory as much weight as it warrant, because it does make a little sense.

Quote

Also, CS are basically pure Investiture, just like spren or Shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1537), and we know Investiture has Intent and cannot be use in someways (e.g. Well could not be used to kill directly), hence CS should also be in some sense bound the Intent the Investiture that makes them up.

We don't really see if Kelsier can physically hurt someone after he became a CS through Preservation's Investiture, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

Quote

I think we know too little about SR to be making too many statements honestly.
We know that all of SR is Investiture and Connection. Connection are most likely of Investiture as well. Investiture can be coded with Identity.

Hmm, but now I found this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e115) that basically states sDNA and spiritweb are similar stuff :D
So they are not the same, but closely related. And I just confused now.

Personally I will wait for Era 3/4 to speculate more on this stuff :D

I agree, we're gonna have to just wait. My last post is about as comprehensive a collection as I can come up with the information we have so far.

Quote

I think that is a different thing they excise in TLM, or, while related it is not the same.
Also, we don't know what the Set did or did not manage to get spikes to do, only that they were not really working well or reliably.

I think it has to be the same at the very least. And we do know what they manage to get the spikes to do, they can grant Metalborn powers for a few seconds.

Quote

Yeah, but different muscles are also considerably different from one another, so there is a space for argument there.

I suppose, but it's unlikely.

Quote

Yeah but my point was that two thing determine 'level' of someone with Invested art, innate power and skill.

That they do, but that wasn't what I was discussing.

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On 21/11/2022 at 5:38 AM, Koloss17 said:

So I just wanted to point it to all that might have missed it, we got confirmation in TLM by Telsin that F-tin can store pain. This is huge, as it makes (as far as I know) F-tin the only feruchemantic metal that can be utilized in a non-end neutral way. There’s nearly no reason to tap pain once it is stored, so you can easily throw out your painmind once full. 
 

Once again solidifying the absolute absurdity of F-tin. 

Long live F-Tin, the supreme feruchematic metal

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8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Distance breaks the bond, so for a Knight to leave, breaking the bond would always be necessary anyway. The Knight can leave.

But then they are no longer Knight. They are just regular person. Anyone who is Knight Radiant is unable to leave Rosharan system currently, they have to give up the powers.

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Note that I said "That has a physical form". Kelsier is only stapled to a body through Hemalurgy, and while the Heralds have a way of creating or acquiring bodies, that's a hack and isn't a true Connection to the Physical Realm.

Yeah, and they both have physical forms. You did not specify 'physical form without hack'.

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Age and torture to that degree is supernatural, but I see where you're coming from. Psychology is my field of choice, and the scars left after a traumatic event can cause panic attacks, anti-social behavior, extreme stress and anxiety, and a whole host of other effects. It's more often a domino effect than just the consequences of that one event (or multiple if you're talking C-PTSD). The event may cause nightmares or panic attacks, which can in turn cause shock or dissociation, which can lead to anxiety and paranoia, and so on. Just that kind of vicious cycle, for thousands of years, well beyond what the human psyche is equipped for, on top of large populations on Roshar actively boxing them into certain personality traits through perception, as well as Roashar being pretty horrific about mental health seems to me enough to have pushed them into 'supernatural' insanity, but maybe I'm not giving that theory as much weight as it warrant, because it does make a little sense.

Oh, I did not mean to imply that they are not traumatized by the age and torture.
While no expert on psychology, I have some familiarity with the complications trauma can cause due to my own issues (BPD).

I just wanted to point out that per Brandon major part of Heralds illness is supernatural, which we see when Ishar briefly becomes sane because Navani sworn an Ideal. If he was 'just' regularly traumatized, that would not have happened I guess.

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We don't really see if Kelsier can physically hurt someone after he became a CS through Preservation's Investiture, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

I guess it depends to what extents Investiture in CS/spren shapes them, and what flexibility is there. I expect that the restrictions on them are more lax than the ones on Shard for example.

E.g. I would expect that while Kelsier can hurt, perhaps he cannot kill at the moment (or can but only as a side-effect).

Quote

That they do, but that wasn't what I was discussing.

Ah, sorry about that. What were you discussing then, since I missed the point?

Edited by therunner
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9 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Note that I said "That has a physical form". Kelsier is only stapled to a body through Hemalurgy, 

Of course the

Spoiler

Returned are also stapled, yet can leave. Is it because Endowment investiture works differently or because the stapling happens pretty much immediately after death, while Kel had to hang out as a disembodied CS in the Cognitive for years? And whatever he got eventually attached to isn't really his original body, even though his bones are somehow incorporated?

 

9 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We don't really see if Kelsier can physically hurt someone after he became a CS through Preservation's Investiture, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

 

TLR was quite good at hurting and killing, despite being a sliver of Preservation, he just couldn't directly use the power of the Well to smite somebody. Now, Kelsier is much more thoroughly permeated by Preservation's investiture of course, but his views on Hemalurgy and general stance on fighting for Scadrial in the epilogue of TLM suggest to me that he is still capable of violence. His being a CS that is viewed as a revolutionary, a destroyer of previous social order, is probably helpful in this regard.

 

9 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And we do know what they manage to get the spikes to do, they can grant Metalborn powers for a few seconds.

IIRC, they didn't really give powers, just got people to the same level of investment as someone with powers would have been - for a short time.

Re: Navani

Spoiler

According to Raboniel, her being able to hear and reproduce the Tones was evidence of humans adapting to and becoming native to Roshar. So, an off-worlder  wouldn't have been able to do this - except for Seekers perhaps.

 

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13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We don't really see if Kelsier can physically hurt someone after he became a CS through Preservation's Investiture, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

We sew that. He slashed Elend with Leras' knife in the Well. It was a deadly wound. And he punched Ati in the face.

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1 hour ago, alder24 said:

We sew that. He slashed Elend with Leras' knife in the Well. It was a deadly wound. And he punched Ati in the face.

Good points!
So either CS are not too restricted due to Investiture comprising them, or it takes a while to take hold (like with Shards).

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12 hours ago, therunner said:

But then they are no longer Knight. They are just regular person. Anyone who is Knight Radiant is unable to leave Rosharan system currently, they have to give up the powers.

SA Spoilers

Spoiler

 

That's not really the fault of the Radiant though. That's just the Spren being unable to leave Roshar due to its nature, and since the powers are linked to the Spren, Surgebinding can't be taken off Roshar. There is nothing holding the Radiant themselves back. Besides, there is a way to get Spren off Roshar, but only Hoid knows it so far.

 

 

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, and they both have physical forms. You did not specify 'physical form without hack'.

I meant an actual Physical Aspect, that's on me for not making it clear enough. Having just any body isn't enough, I meant your actual actual Physical Aspect, not your Cognitive Aspect given physical form somehow.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I just wanted to point out that per Brandon major part of Heralds illness is supernatural, which we see when Ishar briefly becomes sane because Navani sworn an Ideal. If he was 'just' regularly traumatized, that would not have happened I guess.

That's a good point, actually.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I guess it depends to what extents Investiture in CS/spren shapes them, and what flexibility is there. I expect that the restrictions on them are more lax than the ones on Shard for example.

E.g. I would expect that while Kelsier can hurt, perhaps he cannot kill at the moment (or can but only as a side-effect).

For now, let's assume that he can hurt but not kill.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Ah, sorry about that. What were you discussing then, since I missed the point?

The point was that practice doesn't make Feruchemy store any more efficiently, as an extra boost of power from Hemalurgy can nearly double Allomantic power yet barely make Feruchemy any better. From there we went onto the differences between how much of Vin's capabilities were raw power vs practiced skill, and from there to Vin vs Wax. That's what I meant, that the difference between Vin and Wax's abilities (and the nature of those abilities as power vs skill) was beside the point.

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

Of course the

Spoiler

Returned are also stapled, yet can leave. Is it because Endowment investiture works differently or because the stapling happens pretty much immediately after death, while Kel had to hang out as a disembodied CS in the Cognitive for years? And whatever he got eventually attached to isn't really his original body, even though his bones are somehow incorporated?

 

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

It wouldn't really make sense for Endowment Investiture to work differently. It could be because the Divine Breath was added back to the body immediately, or because it's the actual body of the person itself, or maybe it's none of those, and Vasher and the other Scholars just figured out the same trick Hoid did for taking Investiture off-world. I did a quick scan on the Arcanum but didn't see anything about how or why Returned can leave Nalthis, so that's on @therunner or @alder24 to see if they can find something I couldn't.

 

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

TLR was quite good at hurting and killing, despite being a sliver of Preservation, he just couldn't directly use the power of the Well to smite somebody. Now, Kelsier is much more thoroughly permeated by Preservation's investiture of course, but his views on Hemalurgy and general stance on fighting for Scadrial in the epilogue of TLM suggest to me that he is still capable of violence. His being a CS that is viewed as a revolutionary, a destroyer of previous social order, is probably helpful in this regard.

Well, Rashek was only a Sliver, which is someone whose soul has been expanded by holding a Shard, so Preservation's Investiture wouldn't have had a considerable effect on him, not to mention he held only a fraction of the power, and even that for only a short time. On the other hand, Kelsier is made of Preservation's Investiture. His propensity for violence or revolution wouldn't really make a difference, so long as he's made of Investiture that is diametrically opposed to any sort of violence. You do make a good point about the fact that he'd be affected by people's perception though. So either being made of Preservation's Investiture doesn't affect him at all (or not significantly enough to stop him), or it does and he just has some way of getting around it.

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

IIRC, they didn't really give powers, just got people to the same level of investment as someone with powers would have been - for a short time.

Here's what it says:

Quote

“Roughly five percent Invested,” she reported to Entrone. “And as you can see, the subject is still alive. We’ve essentially excised a piece of the soul and stored it in the metal.”

Wait.

They’d made a spike without killing the woman? That was supposed to be impossible. Granted, Marasi hadn’t studied Death’s book in as much detail as Wax had, but she was fairly sure Hemalurgy always killed its subject.

“So?” Entrone said. “I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I don’t particularly care if these people live or die. Creating spikes without killing them is pointless. We need Metalborn in huge numbers. That will impress Autonomy. That will make her realize this planet is a resource, not something to be burned.”

“Ah, my lord,” the woman said. “This woman isn’t Metalborn. We’ve Invested a spike—a tiny bit, granted—using an ordinary person.  All people are Invested by Ruin and Preservation as part of our very makeup—and we have a little extra Preservation, blessed by the Shards upon our creation. We’re pulling some of that out.

“The percentage you get depends on the person. We think it might have to do with how likely they were, genetically, to be Metalborn. But they don’t need that extra if the powers didn’t manifest in them. It’s vestigial. We simply slice it off and use it in a spike. Fully Investing one takes between twenty and thirty people.”

“But can you make Allomancers from those spikes,” Entrone said. “That’s the key part.” The scientist glanced at the others. “Sir, this is a fantastic result. A huge step forward in—”

“Can you make me Allomancers?” he demanded. “Now. Today. To show Autonomy.”

“No,” Labcoat admitted. “We think we need to code this in some way to give a specific Metallic Art blessing. We’re working on that. We’ve had some few gain a power for a short time using one of these spikes, but it gives out soon after.”

It's a bit longer than it needs to be, but I thought I'd include as much of the scene as is relevant. It says very clearly that some people have gotten powers through the spikes, but only for a little bit.

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

Re: Navani

Spoiler

According to Raboniel, her being able to hear and reproduce the Tones was evidence of humans adapting to and becoming native to Roshar. So, an off-worlder  wouldn't have been able to do this - except for Seekers perhaps.

 

That seems about right, good work! I'd have assumed all humans could, but you're right. The pulsing of the Well was one of the Rhythms of Scadrial, and we see that Seekers can hear those when normal people can't. But they're Connected to Scadrial, so they might need a Connection to Roshar before they can hear the Rhythms.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

We sew that. He slashed Elend with Leras' knife in the Well. It was a deadly wound. And he punched Ati in the face.

Oh yeah. It seems reasonable at this point that he is either unaffected by Preservation's Intent, or he can hurt people but not kill them.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Good points!
So either CS are not too restricted due to Investiture comprising them, or it takes a while to take hold (like with Shards).

Taking a while could make sense too, but maybe it's just not enough Investiture for the Intent to take over.

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13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Oh yeah. It seems reasonable at this point that he is either unaffected by Preservation's Intent, or he can hurt people but not kill them.

Kel striked with the intent to kill, he wanted to make a deadly wound so Vin would use the power of the Well to heal him.

Splinters, like spren, don't have to have their intent align with the intent of the Shard they're made of. Cognitive Shadows are a bit similar, they're made out of investiture, but they're a copy of their original soul, or their soul was invested. They weren't just pure investiture that came to live. That's why CS would be able to also have an intent independent from Shard's investiture, even more than what Splinters are capable of. Because they were human, their intent is derived from what's in their soul, what they were like when they were alive. Kel is more and more focused on Survival, he always was, now he has big plans, and looks at the sky seeing potential danger in every light. He's slowly taken over by his intent to survive (not only himself but make all of Scadrial survive. Yes, survive is quite similar to Preservation's intent, but let's look at SA:

Spoiler

Heralds are made out of Honor's investiture but they're still capable of breaking oaths. They're taken over by their singular intent - Nale is obsessed with law, Kalek has death paranoia (it was already present in WoK prelude), Ash can't stop herself from destroying her images, Jez went drunk, Taln became a coward (OB Thaylen, he cowered and hid when the battle begun), and Ishar became a megalomaniac. This is their madness, but that's because, like Vasher said, the longer they live the more they become obsessed with a singular intent, like spren. Their actions are intent driven, but they aren't of Honor. Nine of them abandoned the Oathpact, and humanity, denying to fight alongside them in this Desolation, Their obsession has nothing to do with Honor's intent, Nale turned against humanity while Ishar started to experiment on spren, which is as far from Honor as it could be.

Warbreaker:

Spoiler

Denth was far from Endowment. He was taking lives of people, killing all who stood in his way, he was working on starting another Manywar but most importantly was focused solely on getting revenge on Vasher for Shashara and Arsteel.

So I think that CS aren't limited to the intent of a Shard because they used to be a person. It's harder for that investiture to overcome the mind. But that investiture will find its new intent, based on what that person used to be when he was alive. 

Spoiler

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

 

I'm ashamed to admit that I wasn't paying enough attention to this topic since my last big reply. But what on Ruin has happened here? I'm scared by you Devotion you poor, zincless Worldhopper. 

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19 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA Spoilers

  Hide contents

 

That's not really the fault of the Radiant though. That's just the Spren being unable to leave Roshar due to its nature, and since the powers are linked to the Spren, Surgebinding can't be taken off Roshar. There is nothing holding the Radiant themselves back. Besides, there is a way to get Spren off Roshar, but only Hoid knows it so far.

 

 

Spoiler

Do we know that Hoid can get Spren off of Roshar?

 

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5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kel striked with the intent to kill, he wanted to make a deadly wound so Vin would use the power of the Well to heal him.

Splinters, like spren, don't have to have their intent align with the intent of the Shard they're made of. Cognitive Shadows are a bit similar, they're made out of investiture, but they're a copy of their original soul, or their soul was invested. They weren't just pure investiture that came to live. That's why CS would be able to also have an intent independent from Shard's investiture, even more than what Splinters are capable of. Because they were human, their intent is derived from what's in their soul, what they were like when they were alive. Kel is more and more focused on Survival, he always was, now he has big plans, and looks at the sky seeing potential danger in every light. He's slowly taken over by his intent to survive (not only himself but make all of Scadrial survive. Yes, survive is quite similar to Preservation's intent, but let's look at SA:

  Hide contents

Heralds are made out of Honor's investiture but they're still capable of breaking oaths. They're taken over by their singular intent - Nale is obsessed with law, Kalek has death paranoia (it was already present in WoK prelude), Ash can't stop herself from destroying her images, Jez went drunk, Taln became a coward (OB Thaylen, he cowered and hid when the battle begun), and Ishar became a megalomaniac. This is their madness, but that's because, like Vasher said, the longer they live the more they become obsessed with a singular intent, like spren. Their actions are intent driven, but they aren't of Honor. Nine of them abandoned the Oathpact, and humanity, denying to fight alongside them in this Desolation, Their obsession has nothing to do with Honor's intent, Nale turned against humanity while Ishar started to experiment on spren, which is as far from Honor as it could be.

Warbreaker:

  Hide contents

Denth was far from Endowment. He was taking lives of people, killing all who stood in his way, he was working on starting another Manywar but most importantly was focused solely on getting revenge on Vasher for Shashara and Arsteel.

So I think that CS aren't limited to the intent of a Shard because they used to be a person. It's harder for that investiture to overcome the mind. But that investiture will find its new intent, based on what that person used to be when he was alive. 

  Hide contents

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

That's actually a really well-deduced argument. this is why we need you on here, Alder

Quote

I'm ashamed to admit that I wasn't paying enough attention to this topic since my last big reply. But what on Ruin has happened here? I'm scared by you Devotion you poor, zincless Worldhopper. 

We've been busy >:)

 

34 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:
  Hide contents

Do we know that Hoid can get Spren off of Roshar?

 

 

20 minutes ago, Lightweaver2 said:
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I don’t believe that has been confirmed. We know he goes off Roshar, but we never see design.

SA spoiler.

SA

Spoiler

The timeline is a bit fuzzy, but we have seen Design off-world. I don't know if he's figured it out yet as of SA 4, but he will.

 

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
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