F-tin’s the best

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:22 PM, lacrossedeamon said:

I wonder what happens with a primer cube tuned to F-tin would do? Would it heighten (tap) or dampen (store) the senses? Would it do anything? I think we've only seen it used to replicate Allomancy for now.

23 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Yeah that’s the big question. I don’t even know if we have confirmation that primer cubes CAN use feruchemy. Given that it’s implementing a god metal that encompasses the entirety of the magic system of Scadrial, I feel like it should, but I don’t really know.

It's been confirmed to have an interaction, but we don't know what.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

I think we're thinking of it the wrong way. The Tinmind doesn't store the pain itself, just the sense that allows you to feel pain. So if you could force the contents of your Tinmind on someone else (via primer cube or otherwise) they wouldn't necessarily feel pain, they'd just have heightened sensitivity to it.

As for how Feruchemy would work with a Primer Cube, it would probably depend on if you're storing or tapping while you're priming the cube. Store heat in a Brassmind without getting colder (and not filling the Brassmind at all) to make a Primer Cube that causes a cold spell, whereas you could tap heat without getting hotter at all and then use that to cause a heat effect. It's possible the first one isn't possible, or functions differently, but I imagine it'd be something along those lines

SA Spoilers (RoW)

Spoiler

Heightened sense of pain combined with a Painrial like the one Navani uses on Raboniel though >~<

Edit: I just remembered that we definitely have evidence of a Feruchemist using Primer Cube Technology: That's how the Malwish Skimmer Ships work

Edited April 30, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[mip67]

I can see a primer cube for tin (allomantic or feruchemical) to increase someone's sensitivity to pain , then giving someone a papercut as a form of torture.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 hours ago, mip67 said:

I can see a primer cube for tin (allomantic or feruchemical) to increase someone's sensitivity to pain , then giving someone a papercut as a form of torture.

You're evil

[mip67]

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're evil

=)

 

[Trusk'our]

On 2/13/2023 at 0:29 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It's been confirmed to have an interaction, but we don't know what.

The Southern airships use Feruchemical iron to reduce their weight, so we know that there is at least that option available.

[Jn819]

On 11/27/2022 at 0:49 AM, Invocation said:

(Stormlight Spoilers)

  Hide contents

I can't stop imagine a Painrial powered by a tinmind full of pain. Metalminds can store a lot of their attribute in a relatively tiny amount of metal, so imagine how much output you could get off that.

 

Spoiler for OB:

Spoiler

Navani already has a painrial designed to inflict pain to stun people. She uses it in the battle of Thaylen City. Fabrials don't need that kind of battery as long as they have Light.

[+Invocation]

46 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

Spoiler for OB:

  Hide contents

Navani already has a painrial designed to inflict pain to stun people. She uses it in the battle of Thaylen City. Fabrials don't need that kind of battery as long as they have Light.

Spoiler

I'm aware that things like that exist, but that's why I want to see one using a tinmind as a battery. Stormlight runs out fast, Feruchemical storages do not. Stormlight has to be recharged in a highstorm or Honor's perpendicularity, Feruchemical storages just need the one person to dump pain into it. Stormlight requires money to be contained, Feruchemical storages are just metal that can be integrated with the rest of the design. Also, I'm not sure how many multipliers you could apply with a Stormlight panrial compared to the multitudes of Feruchemical multipliers.
I didn't say I wanted to see one created wholesale, just one powered by a different source than normal.

 

[Jn819]

16 hours ago, Invocation said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm aware that things like that exist, but that's why I want to see one using a tinmind as a battery. Stormlight runs out fast, Feruchemical storages do not. Stormlight has to be recharged in a highstorm or Honor's perpendicularity, Feruchemical storages just need the one person to dump pain into it. Stormlight requires money to be contained, Feruchemical storages are just metal that can be integrated with the rest of the design. Also, I'm not sure how many multipliers you could apply with a Stormlight panrial compared to the multitudes of Feruchemical multipliers.
I didn't say I wanted to see one created wholesale, just one powered by a different source than normal.

 

Okay, perhaps the idea has more merit than I thought. But I think it would need Stormlight either way, just less maybe.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Invocation said:

  Hide contents

I'm aware that things like that exist, but that's why I want to see one using a tinmind as a battery. Stormlight runs out fast, Feruchemical storages do not. Stormlight has to be recharged in a highstorm or Honor's perpendicularity, Feruchemical storages just need the one person to dump pain into it. Stormlight requires money to be contained, Feruchemical storages are just metal that can be integrated with the rest of the design. Also, I'm not sure how many multipliers you could apply with a Stormlight panrial compared to the multitudes of Feruchemical multipliers.
I didn't say I wanted to see one created wholesale, just one powered by a different source than normal.

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Well, technically Scadrial is a low invested world, while Roshar is a high invested world, a metalmind holds very little investment compared to what Stormlight can provide. A fabrial powered by a metalmind would run out of investiture really fast. 

But you could combine them together. Pain stored in metalminds isn't literal pain, it's your body's ability to feel pain, without any stimulus you won't feel pain even when tapping a lot of it. But Painrials do "store" literal pain (iirc, I can be wrong and it could act like pain stored in a tinmind), combining them together you get an area in which feeling of pain is increased, and stimulus provided by Painrial, using less Stormlight as fuel.

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by alder24

[Weaver of Lies]

I think that the storing the ability to feel pain is less pain specific and more just storing the sense of touch. However, I think it would work almost the same way.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Lightweaver2

[+Invocation]

5 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Okay, perhaps the idea has more merit than I thought. But I think it would need Stormlight either way, just less maybe.

Potentially as a conduit, true. I didn't think of that.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

Well, technically Scadrial is a low invested world, while Roshar is a high invested world, a metalmind holds very little investment compared to what Stormlight can provide. A fabrial powered by a metalmind would run out of investiture really fast. 

But you could combine them together. Pain stored in metalminds isn't literal pain, it's your body's ability to feel pain, without any stimulus you won't feel pain even when tapping a lot of it. But Painrials do "store" literal pain (iirc, I can be wrong and it could act like pain stored in a tinmind), combining them together you get an area in which feeling of pain is increased, and stimulus provided by Painrial, using less Stormlight as fuel.

  Reveal hidden contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Yes, Scadrial is much lower in ambient Investiture than Roshar, but their Investiture tends to be more stable long-term than Stormlight does. There is the potential that Stormlight needs to work as a conduit, sure, for the metalmind's output to be patterned off of, but if Allomantic metals are already holding to their push/pull patterns for fabrial metals, it's possible that's not needed beyond having the metal already with some storage in it.
And of course spikes and metalminds are less Invested than the godmetals making up a Blade and Plate. Scadrial has the advantage of their power being able to be dispersed more efficiently as time passes, since Rosharan Investiture requires a bond that has two sapient factors in it and a large amount of self-reflection that a lot of people don't necessarily want to go through where Allomancy and Feruchemy are genetically transferred and there are already attempts to consolidate both powers together, both with Hemalurgy and breeding policies.

 

50 minutes ago, Lightweaver2 said:

I think that the storing the ability to feel pain is less pain specific and more just storing the sense of touch. However, I think it would work almost the same way.

I think that falls under one of the Intent separations and most people would perceive pain differently enough to touch that they'd be stored differently. But I don't know if we know that for sure.

[Weaver of Lies]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Potentially as a conduit, true. I didn't think of that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, Scadrial is much lower in ambient Investiture than Roshar, but their Investiture tends to be more stable long-term than Stormlight does. There is the potential that Stormlight needs to work as a conduit, sure, for the metalmind's output to be patterned off of, but if Allomantic metals are already holding to their push/pull patterns for fabrial metals, it's possible that's not needed beyond having the metal already with some storage in it.
And of course spikes and metalminds are less Invested than the godmetals making up a Blade and Plate. Scadrial has the advantage of their power being able to be dispersed more efficiently as time passes, since Rosharan Investiture requires a bond that has two sapient factors in it and a large amount of self-reflection that a lot of people don't necessarily want to go through where Allomancy and Feruchemy are genetically transferred and there are already attempts to consolidate both powers together, both with Hemalurgy and breeding policies.

 

I think that falls under one of the Intent separations and most people would perceive pain differently enough to touch that they'd be stored differently. But I don't know if we know that for sure.

I disagree, but that’s my personal opinion. Without bias, I think either or storing all feeling or out storing the thing that lets you feel pain could be what happens.

[Jn819]

3 hours ago, Invocation said:

I think that falls under one of the Intent separations and most people would perceive pain differently enough to touch that they'd be stored differently. But I don't know if we know that for sure.

The Lost Metal spoiler:

Spoiler

"Well," Wayne said, "breaking some pieces off you will still hurt, Telsin. I know a thing or two about that part."

"Actually," she said, "it won't hurt. Did you know that a Feruchemist can store pain in a metalmind? Oh, and you won't be able to remove mine from me. We've learned better how to hide those. So torture me if you want, Wayne. I'll find it boring, but nothing more."

I guess that doesn't guarantee she's talking about tin, though I don't know what other feruchemical metal would allow storage of pain. And it doesn't guarantee that it's separate from touch, since she doesn't say you can still feel touch. It seems like a pretty thorough confirmation though, especially with this WoB:

WorldCon 76 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 22/05/2023 at 5:43 AM, Jn819 said:

The Lost Metal spoiler:

  Hide contents

"Well," Wayne said, "breaking some pieces off you will still hurt, Telsin. I know a thing or two about that part."

"Actually," she said, "it won't hurt. Did you know that a Feruchemist can store pain in a metalmind? Oh, and you won't be able to remove mine from me. We've learned better how to hide those. So torture me if you want, Wayne. I'll find it boring, but nothing more."

I guess that doesn't guarantee she's talking about tin, though I don't know what other feruchemical metal would allow storage of pain. And it doesn't guarantee that it's separate from touch, since she doesn't say you can still feel touch. It seems like a pretty thorough confirmation though, especially with this WoB:

WorldCon 76 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Even though we have near-conformation that it's Tin, how wicked would it b3 if it was Bavadinium instead?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Even though we have near-conformation that it's Tin, how wicked would it b3 if it was Bavadinium instead?

You can create a metalmind that stores all attributes, I wouldn't be surprised if that would involve god metals, and could be replicated by Trellium as well, or at least Trellium could replace a specific metalmind.

Spoiler

Argent

Lerasium grants all Allomantic powers when burned. Atium, when used as a spike, can steal any power. Is there a way to create a metalmind that can store anything?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a way to create a metalmind that can store anything.

Argent

Harmonium?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m not saying; I gave you an answer…

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You can create a metalmind that stores all attributes, I wouldn't be surprised if that would involve god metals, and could be replicated by Trellium as well, or at least Trellium could replace a specific metalmind.

  Hide contents

Argent

Lerasium grants all Allomantic powers when burned. Atium, when used as a spike, can steal any power. Is there a way to create a metalmind that can store anything?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a way to create a metalmind that can store anything.

Argent

Harmonium?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m not saying; I gave you an answer…

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

I think it is Harmonium for the All-Metalmind given the Primer Cubes, but that's a head canon more than anything.

Trellium definitely stores an attribute in Feruchemy, we just don't know what. What if its pain? Not the sense of pain (though you could still do that with F-Tin), but actual pain itself? So that when you tap it, you just feel pain?

[The Stick]

I am not sure which metal this would be, but I think tin makes the most sense. Could Wayne for example store being drunk in a metalmind, if he had F tin of course.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am not sure which metal this would be, but I think tin makes the most sense. Could Wayne for example store being drunk in a metalmind, if he had F tin of course.

Being drunk isn't a sense. It's toxin, fluid - storing alcohol in bendalloy would likely work. 

But This makes me wonder, what if you store your senses while being drunk? Would you get the same effects of drunkenness when you tap it, or would just have less attributes as your senses were impaired? @Koloss17 what do you think?

On 23.05.2023 at 6:01 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think it is Harmonium for the All-Metalmind given the Primer Cubes, but that's a head canon more than anything.

I don't think so. I think it's some alloy of Lerasium and Atium. I think that this metalmind should be possible to make before Harmony, as Feruchemy came from both Ruin and Preservation, so Harmonium can't be the answer.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. I think it's some alloy of Lerasium and Atium. I think that this metalmind should be possible to make before Harmony, as Feruchemy came from both Ruin and Preservation, so Harmonium can't be the answer.

Not necessarily? There's nothing in Brandon's answer that implies that. You won't realize this since you're reading this in one go, but after those first two lines in my answer, I spent the better part of an hour trying to articulate to you why arguing that Feruchemy's origin from Ruin and Preservation precludes Harmonium from being the answer isn't really valid. I wrote up paragraph after paragraph trying to figure out how to explain this, and after deleting everything over and over again, I have decided on this.

Feruchemy works with all of the regular 16 metals, and then with all God metals, God metal Alloys with the regular 16, and God metal alloys or combinations with other God metals. If, centuries into the future of the Cosmere, Ruin separates from Preservation and Harmony is dissolved, then goes and merges with Odium and Virtuosity into a single Triple Shard, then resulting God metal was then alloyed with Cadmium (Let's call this metal Absurdium), it will still be Feruchemically viable. Even though it was created after Feruchemy already existed. What are the odds that this exact chain of events will happen, then a Full Feruchemist or the corresponding Ferring gets their hands on said metal and tries using it? Next to nothing. In fact, unless Brandon sees this post and decided to uproot the entire storyline of the Cosmere to spite me, I can guarantee this will never happen. But Absurdium would still be Feruchemically viable, and it will store an attribute. Brandon gives no hints about the Metalmind, so we have no inkling in which direction to theorize. Whether the specific metal comes before or after the dawn of Feruchemy doesn't make a difference.

But here is what we do know. Harmonium can store any Allomancy within it if augmented within a Primer Cube*. It can also store Iron Feruchemy in it (again augmented with technology) given the Malwish Airships. It's not so unreasonable of an extrapolation that it can store other kinds of Feruchemy in it. And let's take context into account. That WoB happened at a Shadows of Self signing. Brandon doesn't hesitate or need to think to give the answer, as he often does for obscure questions. What's more likely, that he just happened to have prepared an answer to this very specific question, or that the answer is introduced in the very book he's at a signing for?

Not to say that it's implausible that it's not Harmonium, but with everything we know right now, Harmonium is likely the best bet.

Unless, of course, Brandon is being cheeky. The question is phrased in a way that doesn't ask if it's a specific metal, God metal (alloy), or otherwise, but simply "A Metalmind". The Bands of Mourning were a Metalmind, and they stored all types of regular Feruchemy in it, just by being a combination of different metals. So maybe Brandon is laughing maniacally while we all rot our brains trying to come up with an answer.

*I do love how Harmonium allows for Primer Cubes, which are in many ways the opposite of Compounding. In Compounding, you burn a Metalmind to fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy. With Primer Cubes, you can store Allomancy in what acts as a Metalmind, and then use it later, and maybe at a distance if the mood strikes; Feruchemically stored Allomancy.

Let's dig into what a Metalmind that can store any attribute could do with a Full Feruchemist. Could you use it to figure out what the rest of the God Metal Alloys (GMA(s)) do? Or would it only allow you to store the Regular 16 Feruchemical Attributes? Could this finally give an answer to what on Earth Malatium stores?

Something else to chew on: Harmonium has its own Feruchemical Attribute that it stores. How does that affect all its uses as Primer Cubes and such? What does A-Harmonium do? H-Harmonium? F-Harmonium?

As a GM, shouldn't any Feruchemist be able to use F-Harmonium? Why has no one tried this yet? Harmonium isn't nearly so dangerous for Feruchemical use as it is for Allomancy or Hemalurgy, where it would by necessity come into contact with water. Just put a nugget of Harmonium at the bottom of a vat of oil, cool the oil, dry your hands properly, and cool them too to prevent any sort of sweating, then go ahead and try it.

Am I missing something? Why didn't Wax try this at any point during his experiments with Harmonium?

Is it, as a Hybrid Shard's GM, too Invested for any sort of Feruchemical or Hemalurgic charge to stick to it?

That might be the answer, but Trellium/Bavadinium can hold a Hemalurgic charge, and so can pure Atium, and when you're talking about solid Investiture, shouldn't the 'Too Invested already' argument go out the window since the material you're trying to Invest literally is Investiture, and so the 'Too Invested' factor should make all GMs Feruchemically and Hemaurgically inert?

This entire rant of a post only exists because Alder somehow made my brain short-circuit so much that the frustration of not knowing how to phrase a counter-argument made me spout all of this. Alder, for all our sakes, never do that again, even though I have no idea what you did ;-;

Edited May 28, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Feruchemy works with all of the regular 16 metals, and then with all God metals, God metal Alloys with the regular 16, and God metal alloys or combinations with other God metals. If, centuries into the future of the Cosmere, Ruin separates from Preservation and Harmony is dissolved, then goes and merges with Odium and Virtuosity into a single Triple Shard, then resulting God metal was then alloyed with Cadmium (Let's call this metal Absurdium), it will still be Feruchemically viable. Even though it was created after Feruchemy already existed. What are the odds that this exact chain of events will happen, then a Full Feruchemist or the corresponding Ferring gets their hands on said metal and tries using it? Next to nothing. In fact, unless Brandon sees this post and decided to uproot the entire storyline of the Cosmere to spite me, I can guarantee this will never happen. But Absurdium would still be Feruchemically viable, and it will store an attribute. Brandon gives no hints about the Metalmind, so we have no inkling in which direction to theorize. Whether the specific metal comes before or after the dawn of Feruchemy doesn't make a difference.

What? What does that have to do with this?  I don't understand why you bring this up. Yes, all god metals and all their alloys are viable in Metallic Arts. So what?

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But here is what we do know. Harmonium can store any Allomancy within it if augmented within a Primer Cube*. It can also store Iron Feruchemy in it (again augmented with technology) given the Malwish Airships. It's not so unreasonable of an extrapolation that it can store other kinds of Feruchemy in it. And let's take context into account. That WoB happened at a Shadows of Self signing. Brandon doesn't hesitate or need to think to give the answer, as he often does for obscure questions. What's more likely, that he just happened to have prepared an answer to this very specific question, or that the answer is introduced in the very book he's at a signing for?

Yes, but Primar Cubes store kinetic investiture, not static one, and Primar Cubes aren't the Feruchemical application of Harmonium. Primar Cubes aren't metalminds. You can't tap them and get investiture back. Harmonium in Primar Cubes is being used up as a charge - Feruchemy doesn't use up metalmind.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Unless, of course, Brandon is being cheeky. The question is phrased in a way that doesn't ask if it's a specific metal, God metal (alloy), or otherwise, but simply "A Metalmind". The Bands of Mourning were a Metalmind, and they stored all types of regular Feruchemy in it, just by being a combination of different metals. So maybe Brandon is laughing maniacally while we all rot our brains trying to come up with an answer.

Not really because technically that's 16 metalminds combined into a single piece: 

Spoiler

Oversleep (paraphrased)

I asked whether we could call the Bands of Mourning the Survivor's Spearhead and whether it did have all 16 basic metal metalminds.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He hesitated a little but eventually said yes, there were all 16 metalminds.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

I asked whether Marasi tapped all of them, because she would tap Kelsier's Identity and memories.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said intentions are important and she didn't tap all of them.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Let's dig into what a Metalmind that can store any attribute could do with a Full Feruchemist. Could you use it to figure out what the rest of the God Metal Alloys (GMA(s)) do? Or would it only allow you to store the Regular 16 Feruchemical Attributes? Could this finally give an answer to what on Earth Malatium stores?

Because the WoB said "anything" I'm inclined to believe that all attributes could be stored there, including all god metals combinations. Which is a ridiculous number if you think about it (there is more than 10^19729 possible metal combinations per https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/95797-the-ultimate-metal-count/ or something like that - in short A LOT - a metalmind that can store "anything" could store everything that all those near infinite number of metals can store.)

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Something else to chew on: Harmonium has its own Feruchemical Attribute that it stores. How does that affect all its uses as Primer Cubes and such? What does A-Harmonium do? H-Harmonium? F-Harmonium?

Yes, that's why Primar Cubes aren't that metalmind. Because it doesn't act like a metalmind - you can't tap it and gain back your attribute, what you're storing is kinetic investiture that creates an area of effect of given investiture.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

As a GM, shouldn't any Feruchemist be able to use F-Harmonium? Why has no one tried this yet? Harmonium isn't nearly so dangerous for Feruchemical use as it is for Allomancy or Hemalurgy, where it would by necessity come into contact with water. Just put a nugget of Harmonium at the bottom of a vat of oil, cool the oil, dry your hands properly, and cool them too to prevent any sort of sweating, then go ahead and try it.

No, I think only Full Feruchemist can be able to use it, just like only Full Mistborn or Atium Misting was able to burn era 1 Atium. Well, maybe anybody could use it as god metals should be burnable by everybody, but I don't think Brandon ever said the same about Feruchemy, that all should be able to tap/store in pure god metals no matter if they are Feruchemist or not. So I think only full Feruchemist could use Harmonium - none is alive today.

Plus intent is important, you need to know what you can store in that metal to use it. 

Harmonium reacts with water vapor, it would explode just by touching it as your skin is wet and produces sweat.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is it, as a Hybrid Shard's GM, too Invested for any sort of Feruchemical or Hemalurgic charge to stick to it?

No.

Spoiler

Silasary

Can you make a Hemalurgical spike out of harmonium and what would it do?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but RAFO. So half an answer and half a not-answer.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

This entire rant of a post only exists because Alder somehow made my brain short-circuit so much that the frustration of not knowing how to phrase a counter-argument made me spout all of this. Alder, for all our sakes, never do that again, even though I have no idea what you did ;-;

I feel overwhelmed and don't know how to answer all of this. I kind of feel amused that I have broken your brain with 3 short sentences. But let me paraphrase my original statement: 

I don't think Harmonium is the only way to create such metalmind (fullmind). I think it's also some alloy of Lerasium and Atium. I think that fullmind should be possible to make before Harmony existed, as Feruchemy came from both Ruin and Preservation, and Harmonium can't be the only answer.
Just like there is a way to make somebody into a Mistborn using Lerasium, just like Atium steals any power, and Lerasium steals all attributes in Hemalurgy, just like there is a way to make somebody into a full Feruchemist using Scadrian god metals, there must be a way to make a fullmind using the same god metals as well, not just Harmonium (which isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium). Plus the WoB was 3 months before BoM release, where Harmonium was introduced for the first time in books, Primar Cubes as well, and because clearly Primar Cubes aren't fullmind, there must be some other way to make a fullmind without the use of Harmonium. Atium and Lerasium alone have already proven to include "anything" in among all 3 Metallic Arts, and that's why I think there must be a way to just Atium and Lerasium to create a fullmind. 

Better? 

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a Lerasium/Atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What? What does that have to do with this?  I don't understand why you bring this up. Yes, all god metals and all their alloys are viable in Metallic Arts. So what?

I mean to say that Harmonium coming into existence after Feruchemy doesn't preclude it from being the Fullmind.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but Primar Cubes store kinetic investiture, not static one, and Primar Cubes aren't the Feruchemical application of Harmonium. Primar Cubes aren't metalminds. You can't tap them and get investiture back. Harmonium in Primar Cubes is being used up as a charge - Feruchemy doesn't use up metalmind.

Again, looking back at the WoB, the question was whether you could store the attribute in it, it doesn't include getting the attribute back. Beyond that, you do get something back: The Primer Cube creates an area of effect, or can be otherwise channeled, such as making the Airships light enough to fly. You're thinking of it as a literal, actual Metalmind; for me, anything where the power is going into the metal and then coming out in some conceivable way counts.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not really because technically that's 16 metalminds combined into a single piece: 

  Hide contents

Oversleep (paraphrased)

I asked whether we could call the Bands of Mourning the Survivor's Spearhead and whether it did have all 16 basic metal metalminds.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He hesitated a little but eventually said yes, there were all 16 metalminds.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

I asked whether Marasi tapped all of them, because she would tap Kelsier's Identity and memories.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said intentions are important and she didn't tap all of them.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

By being combined in a single piece, could you not argue it's a single Metalmind? I get that it's 16 different Metalminds combined into one, but so long as it's one object, I'd term it 'one' Metalmind.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because the WoB said "anything" I'm inclined to believe that all attributes could be stored there, including all god metals combinations. Which is a ridiculous number if you think about it (there is more than 10^19729 possible metal combinations per THE ULTIMATE METAL COUNT or something like that - in short A LOT - a metalmind that can store "anything" could store everything that all those near infinite number of metals can store.)

I thought similarly, but I just don't think so, unless it somehow requires all GMs first. If you're right and it's some alloy of Atium and Lerasium, is it not a bit overpowered to access powers that should be locked to each individual Shard just by alloying the power of two together?

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, I think only Full Feruchemist can be able to use it, just like only Full Mistborn or Atium Misting was able to burn era 1 Atium. Well, maybe anybody could use it as god metals should be burnable by everybody, but I don't think Brandon ever said the same about Feruchemy, that all should be able to tap/store in pure god metals no matter if they are Feruchemist or not. So I think only full Feruchemist could use Harmonium - none is alive today.

Technically the Atium Mistings in TFE were Electrum Mistings, they could burn the Electrum bit and anyone can burn the Atium bit. And I guess so, but this part of the GMs' nature always confuses me. Can anyone anywhere burn a GM, or can only Scadrians, or do you have to be some variety of Allomancer before you can burn a GM? I always assumed it was the Allomancer one, that you have to be at least a Misting. And again, I assumed any Feruchemist could also use a GM, but I suppose that one was never confirmed, despite it making internal sense.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Plus intent is important, you need to know what you can store in that metal to use it.

That one I think I can safely say isn't true. The Terris had to figure out what the last 7 metals (Electrum, Cadmium, Bendalloy, Chromium, Nicrosil, Aluminum, and Duralumin) stored after the Catacendre, and by Wax's time, they've figured it out, though it may have taken them longer to figure out the last four given their spiritual nature. Sazed also experimented with Malatium in TFE.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Harmonium reacts with water vapor, it would explode just by touching it as your skin is wet and produces sweat.

But if you dried your hands properly first, and then kept them cool so they didn't sweat?

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I kind of feel amused that I have broken your brain with 3 short sentences.

Too much power, I tell you.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Harmonium is the only way to create such metalmind (fullmind). I think it's also some alloy of Lerasium and Atium. I think that fullmind should be possible to make before Harmony existed, as Feruchemy came from both Ruin and Preservation, and Harmonium can't be the only answer.
Just like there is a way to make somebody into a Mistborn using Lerasium, just like Atium steals any power, and Lerasium steals all attributes in Hemalurgy, just like there is a way to make somebody into a full Feruchemist using Scadrian god metals, there must be a way to make a fullmind using the same god metals as well, not just Harmonium (which isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium). Plus the WoB was 3 months before BoM release, where Harmonium was introduced for the first time in books, Primar Cubes as well, and because clearly Primar Cubes aren't fullmind, there must be some other way to make a fullmind without the use of Harmonium. Atium and Lerasium alone have already proven to include "anything" in among all 3 Metallic Arts, and that's why I think there must be a way to just Atium and Lerasium to create a fullmind.

You seem to have switched gears and are including Harmonium now, so I suppose besides it there could be another way. The reason Lerasium makes you a Full Mistborn is because it's the magic system of Leras's Shard. The reason Atium steals anything Hemalurigcally is because Hemalurgy is Ati's Shard's magic system. I assume Lerasium can steal all attributes in Hemalurgy because Leras was on the same planet as Ati while Hemalurgy was forming as a magic system (however that happens) and because Leras' own Shard's magic system also revolves around the same metals. Given all this, a combination of them could make a Fullmind, but I think it would only include the 16 regular attributes, plus Lerasium, Atium, their Alloy, and maybe Harmonium's attributes, and the 32 GMA's of Atium/Lerasium and the regular sixteen, and wouldn't include the Attributes that require other GMs.

Would Harmonium and Lerasium's Alloy have a new set of A-/F-/H-effects? Harmonium and Atium? All three?

 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I mean to say that Harmonium coming into existence after Feruchemy doesn't preclude it from being the Fullmind.

Yes, but what attribute is all atributes? I doubt a single god metal would be able to store everything. That's not attribute. Or maybe something more is needed? Maybe some god metals can store their own attribute and with specific intent you would be able to store everything as well? But I doubt there is any god metal that would allow you to store everything without having a single attribute like other metals.

18 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Again, looking back at the WoB, the question was whether you could store the attribute in it, it doesn't include getting the attribute back. Beyond that, you do get something back: The Primer Cube creates an area of effect, or can be otherwise channeled, such as making the Airships light enough to fly. You're thinking of it as a literal, actual Metalmind; for me, anything where the power is going into the metal and then coming out in some conceivable way counts.

That's a very convoluted reasoning around the WoB. It says metalmind - it isn't a metalmind if nobody can tap it. So yes, that's a literal, actual metalmind, as Brandon said "a metalmind that can store anything". And Primar Cubes don't store static investiture, like all metalminds, they aren't metalminds. Fabrials count for you then? There is a power going into a metal in fabrials and then the effect is coming out.

21 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

By being combined in a single piece, could you not argue it's a single Metalmind? I get that it's 16 different Metalminds combined into one, but so long as it's one object, I'd term it 'one' Metalmind.

No because it's 16 distinguishable pieces. If you touch it in a wrong place you won't be able to tap all 16 metals at once. 

22 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I thought similarly, but I just don't think so, unless it somehow requires all GMs first. If you're right and it's some alloy of Atium and Lerasium, is it not a bit overpowered to access powers that should be locked to each individual Shard just by alloying the power of two together?

But you don't know you can store the power of an unexisting god metal, because you don't know it's possible. You would have to experiment a lot to figure out what other things can be stored in a fullmind. 

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Technically the Atium Mistings in TFE were Electrum Mistings

I don't agree. Don't go there with me. I'm not discussing this again.

25 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

they could burn the Electrum bit and anyone can burn the Atium bit. And I guess so

The what? No Atium-electrum alloy is burnable only by Atium-electrum Mistings. It's an alloy, nobody can just burn Atium out of the alloy. Just like nobody can burn out iron out of steel.

26 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Can anyone anywhere burn a GM, or can only Scadrians, or do you have to be some variety of Allomancer before you can burn a GM? I always assumed it was the Allomancer one, that you have to be at least a Misting. And again, I assumed any Feruchemist could also use a GM, but I suppose that one was never confirmed, despite it making internal sense.

There are conflicting WoBs on that matter. One said anybody should be able to burn god metals, another said connection to that type of investiture is required, or that Honorblades/Shardblade aren't easily burnable by Mistborn etc. There are likely some limitations on that. 

Feruchemist were able to use Atium-electrum alloy, so yes, they can use pure god metals for sure.

29 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That one I think I can safely say isn't true. The Terris had to figure out what the last 7 metals (Electrum, Cadmium, Bendalloy, Chromium, Nicrosil, Aluminum, and Duralumin) stored after the Catacendre, and by Wax's time, they've figured it out, though it may have taken them longer to figure out the last four given their spiritual nature. Sazed also experimented with Malatium in TFE.

Harmony told them, BoM ch 4:

Quote

“The basic physical abilities of Feruchemy are well understood,” VenDell said, walking forward and using a long reed to point at a section of the projected chart. “Terris tradition and heritage has explored them for at least fifteen hundred years. Harmony left detailed explanations in the Words of Founding"

Sazed had never figured out what Malatium does in Era 1.

33 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But if you dried your hands properly first, and then kept them cool so they didn't sweat?

Can you? You would be sweating a bit just by touching it. I doubt that's possible. It's very risky even if possible. Just by knowing you can lose your hand you'll be stressing out more and sweating more.

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The reason Lerasium makes you a Full Mistborn is because it's the magic system of Leras's Shard. The reason Atium steals anything Hemalurigcally is because Hemalurgy is Ati's Shard's magic system.

Yes, and Feruchemy is a combination of those to, a balance system - that's why you can make a Feruchemist by using god metals of Scadrial, that's why I think by using god metals of Scadrial (without using Harmonium) you could make a fullmind.

39 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Given all this, a combination of them could make a Fullmind,

Thank you. I still think Harmonium might be used in some way to achieve the same result, but that's not Primar Cubes.

39 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

but I think it would only include the 16 regular attributes, plus Lerasium, Atium, their Alloy, and maybe Harmonium's attributes, and the 32 GMA's of Atium/Lerasium and the regular sixteen, and wouldn't include the Attributes that require other GMs.

Possible, but I find it weird as the WoB said anything.

37 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Would Harmonium and Lerasium's Alloy have a new set of A-/F-/H-effects? Harmonium and Atium? All three?

Yes, a new set of powers for each alloy in every metallic art - and this alloy can be alloyed with all 16 based alloys to create new effects for all metalic arts etc etc. Each alloy changes everything.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but what attribute is all atributes? I doubt a single god metal would be able to store everything. That's not attribute. Or maybe something more is needed? Maybe some god metals can store their own attribute and with specific intent you would be able to store everything as well? But I doubt there is any god metal that would allow you to store everything without having a single attribute like other metals.

Harmonium can recreate effects of Stormlight, so there may be a way around this.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a very convoluted reasoning around the WoB. It says metalmind - it isn't a metalmind if nobody can tap it. So yes, that's a literal, actual metalmind, as Brandon said "a metalmind that can store anything". And Primar Cubes don't store static investiture, like all metalminds, they aren't metalminds. Fabrials count for you then? There is a power going into a metal in fabrials and then the effect is coming out.

Fabrials don't give out the exact same effect put in. Put Steel Allomancy into the Primer Cube and you get Steel Allomancy back. Put Iron Feruchemy into the Primer Cube and get Iron Feruchemy back. They seem more like Metalminds to me than the Medallions, where you can only out something in or get it out.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No because it's 16 distinguishable pieces. If you touch it in a wrong place you won't be able to tap all 16 metals at once. 

Fair.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree. Don't go there with me. I'm not discussing this again.

The what? No Atium-electrum alloy is burnable only by Atium-electrum Mistings. It's an alloy, nobody can just burn Atium out of the alloy. Just like nobody can burn out iron out of steel.

I don't mean to say you can burn the Atium out of the Atium-Electrum, just that the Electrum locks the Atium, so you need to be able to burn that so you can access the whole thing. And not to pick on an old wound but

Quote

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.

 

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are conflicting WoBs on that matter. One said anybody should be able to burn god metals, another said connection to that type of investiture is required, or that Honorblades/Shardblade aren't easily burnable by Mistborn etc. There are likely some limitations on that.

Is there a community consensus on the topic, like a headcanon based on something Brandon has said that we can assume moving forward until he's decided for sure?

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Feruchemist were able to use Atium-electrum alloy, so yes, they can use pure god metals for sure.

Doesn't that mean Ferrings should be able to too?

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Harmony told them, BoM ch 4:

Those were explanations of Terris history of using the '10' Feruchemical metals, not the new ones. Beyond the note Sazed leaves Spook, there were no hints about the metals that we know of.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sazed had never figured out what Malatium does in Era 1.

He tried nonetheless, and he must have been able to do something with it, just not something he could recognize or identify.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Can you? You would be sweating a bit just by touching it. I doubt that's possible. It's very risky even if possible. Just by knowing you can lose your hand you'll be stressing out more and sweating more.

Soothers then. Would it not work even if you were really cold and were touching the Harmonium inside oil?

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Thank you. I still think Harmonium might be used in some way to achieve the same result, but that's not Primar Cubes.

Agree to disagree, just the fact that Primer Cubes can take in the input of Investiture, hold it within itself, and then release it later seems like it makes a good contender to me.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Possible, but I find it weird as the WoB said anything.

Well, Brandon hasn't seen the ultimate metal count, so to him everything probably means the regular 16 metals

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, a new set of powers for each alloy in every metallic art - and this alloy can be alloyed with all 16 based alloys to create new effects for all metalic arts etc etc. Each alloy changes everything.

Ah. Yikes

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Harmonium can recreate effects of Stormlight, so there may be a way around this.

Harmonium? No. Primar cubes - yes, you can theoretically charge them with Surgebinding. But Harmonium isn't Pirmar Cubes, those have literally a switch, there is more to Primar Cubes than just Harmonium. 

Spoiler

gk-sudo

Could primer cubes be used to store powers besides the Scadrial ones, such as Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible. So much fun to have in the space age, that I'm not gonna let you have yet. You have one more Mistborn book, one more Stormlight book, three more Mistborn books, and then five more Stormlight books before I'm gonna let you have that fun. Keep theorizing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Fabrials don't give out the exact same effect put in. Put Steel Allomancy into the Primer Cube and you get Steel Allomancy back. Put Iron Feruchemy into the Primer Cube and get Iron Feruchemy back. They seem more like Metalminds to me than the Medallions, where you can only out something in or get it out.

But you don't get it back. It creates an area of effect. Put A-steel in a Primar Cube and it pushes you back. Feruchemy affects a Malwish ship, not you. You don't get that back, that's not possible for you. That's not like a metalmind. Medallions are at least filled by Firemothers, and you can tap them - that's like metalminds with both storing and tapping. And they store static investiture, not kinetic. Primar Cubes aren't metalminds. Primar Cubes are tech. And you can't charge them with more than one power - that's not a metalmind that stores anything. To claim that Primar Cubes are those metalminds, and that was what Brandon was talking about, would mean that he purposefully misinterpreted the question and answered it knowing others would think about literal metalmind - Brandon doesn't do that.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't mean to say you can burn the Atium out of the Atium-Electrum, just that the Electrum locks the Atium, so you need to be able to burn that so you can access the whole thing. And not to pick on an old wound but

I'm not arguing about it again, just go look for topics where I recently did (was it with you?), there I've listed my opinion on that, providing WoBs. I'm not arguing about it again as both interpretations are as likely to be true. Found it, just read it here, but I'm not arguing about it again, I won't respond:

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is there a community consensus on the topic, like a headcanon based on something Brandon has said that we can assume moving forward until he's decided for sure?

Hard to say. I personally think Connection is required to burn a Shardblade, because they are an alloy, pure Tanavestium should be burnable by Mistborn. But I'm not sure if everybody should be able to burn god metals, I think that's just Lerasium, and that wasn't even its primary effect. But Lerasium is said to form a connection, so alloying it with a Shardblade should allow Mistborn to burn it as now he has connection to it. Or it would grant him Surgebinding as an Alloy of Lerasium and Bavadinium gives Sand Mastery (per WoB). But that would still form a connection to Honor/Cultivation and he should be able to burn a Shardblade afterwards.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He tried nonetheless, and he must have been able to do something with it, just not something he could recognize or identify.

If he was able to store something in it, he would know what it is. He didn't succeed. Intent. He has to know what to store. He can't just store something, not knowing what it is. Unlike in Allomancy, there isn't any clear indication that you can store something in a metal - you need to know what you want to store to store it. Without that, you just can't.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Soothers then. Would it not work even if you were really cold and were touching the Harmonium inside oil?

No idea. Maybe. But good luck figuring out what can be stored than in that short timeframe and while freezing.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Agree to disagree, just the fact that Primer Cubes can take in the input of Investiture, hold it within itself, and then release it later seems like it makes a good contender to me.

Fabrials do the same. Awakened objects too. Soulstamps too. 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, Brandon hasn't seen the ultimate metal count, so to him everything probably means the regular 16 metals

That's Brandon, he knows how many metals there are, Peter likely did the math for him. You underestimate Brandon's attention to details and math:

Spoiler

17th Shard

Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm, yes…I suppose there would be but there are…

17th Shard

More than sixteen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, way more than sixteen.

17th Shard

Oh wow. Okay. That's fascinating. More than sixteen and less than infinite.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

 

Spoiler

callumke (paraphrased)

Are there 50 Allomantic metals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Nearly. Does Harmony have a metal?

callumke (paraphrased)

Is that an alloy of lerasium and atium?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're along the right lines.

Alloy of Law York signing (Nov. 24, 2011)

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by alder24