F-tin’s the best

[Koloss17]

So I just wanted to point it to all that might have missed it, we got confirmation in TLM by Telsin that F-tin can store pain. This is huge, as it makes (as far as I know) F-tin the only feruchemantic metal that can be utilized in a non-end neutral way. There’s nearly no reason to tap pain once it is stored, so you can easily throw out your painmind once full. 
 

Once again solidifying the absolute absurdity of F-tin. 

[Storyspren]

I think a pain grenade would be pretty useful if something could be rigged up.

 

[Koloss17]

Just now, Storyspren said:

I think a pain grenade would be pretty useful if something could be rigged up.

 

Oh NOW we’re talking. I don’t think it’s the most powerful use of an ettmettal grenade, but it can be a lot more dangerous than a steelpush grenade in the right environment.

[Isilel]

Oh, absolutely. Also, you can store allomantic senses in tin too:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9199

So, bronze senses, steelsight, sense of balance and timing that constitutes A-pewter "grace". This is an extremely versatile and useful power, which is going to become even more so when unkeyed metalminds will become more common. I really expected the Ghostbloods to have medallions with it, but medallion use was apparently taboo in TLM, alas...

Edited November 20, 2022 by Isilel

[Storyspren]

It's humane yet totally inhumane at the same time. 

[Koloss17]

Just now, Isilel said:

Oh, absolutely. Also, you can store allomantic senses in tin too:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9199

So, bronze senses, steelsight, sense of balance and timing that constitutes A-pewter "grace". This is an extremely versatile and useful power, which is going to become even more so when unkeyed metalminds will become more common. I really expected the Ghostbloods to have medallions with it, but medallion use was taboo in TLM, alas...

Oh my sweet summer child, do not cite the old magic to me. I know it all.

 

I am with you though. The lack of medallions in Ghostblood possession was quite odd.

[Kasimir]

9 hours ago, Storyspren said:

It's humane yet totally inhumane at the same time. 

It feels more practical than pepper spray for self-defense, or a simple way to deter people—I'm thinking for instance prison riots when you need a safe way to defuse the situation. Probably a better non-lethal means than tasers too, though you would have to establish ethical limits of 'safe' use.

At the same time, storing pain could possibly be dangerous. Good for pain management, bad when you push past your limits. Pain is your body's way of telling you that you need to stop doing what you are doing right now.

[Koloss17]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

It feels more practical than pepper spray for self-defense, or a simple way to deter people—I'm thinking for instance prison riots when you need a safe way to defuse the situation. Probably a better non-lethal means than tasers too, though you would have to establish ethical limits of 'safe' use.

 

Now here’s the interesting thing: how non-lethal could it be? I feel like if you store enough, or store damage from something like a knife wound or three, the pain could be enough to kill someone from shock.

[Kasimir]

2 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Now here’s the interesting thing: how non-lethal could it be? I feel like if you store enough, or store damage from something like a knife wound or three, the pain could be enough to kill someone from shock.

Fair—what's the mechanism though? I'm thinking of the shock categories and it doesn't seem to fit any of them (neurogenic, hypovolemic, septic, anaphylactic.) Intuitively a significant amount of pain should be very damaging, and you could potentially harm the person from convulsing (let's be fair, even a taser shot, beyond the safety issues to do with electricity, can badly hurt a person if they just collapse to a hard surface and hit their head which is another concern with a pain weapon like this).

Most of the shock categories require something like sudden massive blood loss, spinal cord damage, immune system severely overreacting, sepsis, etcetera. I'm trying to work out what the mechanism would be here.

[Koloss17]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Fair—what's the mechanism though? I'm thinking of the shock categories and it doesn't seem to fit any of them (neurogenic, hypovolemic, septic, anaphylactic.) Intuitively a significant amount of pain should be very damaging, and you could potentially harm the person from convulsing (let's be fair, even a taser shot, beyond the safety issues to do with electricity, can badly hurt a person if they just collapse to a hard surface and hit their head which is another concern with a pain weapon like this).

Most of the shock categories require something like sudden massive blood loss, spinal cord damage, immune system severely overreacting, sepsis, etcetera. I'm trying to work out what the mechanism would be here.

That’s completely fair. Not entirely sure this would fit the bill, but there admittedly isn’t a lot that will cause all the nerves in your body to go into a pain response at once, which is what I would assume would happen.

 

 

 

edit: do we have confirmation that ettmetal works with feruchemy?

Edited November 21, 2022 by Koloss17

[Storyspren]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:57 AM, Ookla the Headmuncher said:

edit: do we have confirmation that ettmetal works with feruchemy?

My guess is that since feruchemy rips off part of your soul, it can steal anything. I further guess that we have seen people with stolen powers before and not known it, but that's neither here nor there. Why Hoid doesn't use Feruchemy... just ??? Voluntary spiking is a thing so maybe he will once that gets popular. Aaaaaand now I am off topic.

[+Invocation]

(Stormlight Spoilers)

Spoiler

I can't stop imagine a Painrial powered by a tinmind full of pain. Metalminds can store a lot of their attribute in a relatively tiny amount of metal, so imagine how much output you could get off that.

 

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, Invocation said:

(Stormlight Spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't stop imagine a Painrial powered by a tinmind full of pain. Metalminds can store a lot of their attribute in a relatively tiny amount of metal, so imagine how much output you could get off that.

 

SA

Spoiler

Tin makes deminishers though. And they already have them able to remove all pain 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[+Invocation]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

SA

  Reveal hidden contents

Tin makes finishers though. And they already have them able to remove all pain 

 

Spoiler

I'm sure they could make it work. The pewter for the augmenter could be layered as the output method, with the tinmind solely as a power source. Or just use it to make a hyper-effective, super-charged version of the painrial vambrace thing that let them both store their pain and then discharge it elsewhere.

 

[+robardin]

On 11/20/2022 at 2:52 PM, Storyspren said:

I think a pain grenade would be pretty useful if something could be rigged up.

 

How would you force someone to tap the tinmind though?

Even if you made an unsealed tinmind medallion with the "pain store" in it (like the coppermind coin that Wax gets from Hoid, but with tin, and instead of someone else's memory, you get someone else's pain), you'd still have to tap it... There's no mechanism in the Metallic Arts to "push out" a metalmind's store.

And sure, if you thought the tinmind stored something else - or was just curious to see what it held - just one zip of pain and you'd be like, nah, no more of this.

[Rorzikel]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:59 AM, Kasimir said:

Fair—what's the mechanism though? I'm thinking of the shock categories and it doesn't seem to fit any of them (neurogenic, hypovolemic, septic, anaphylactic.) Intuitively a significant amount of pain should be very damaging, and you could potentially harm the person from convulsing (let's be fair, even a taser shot, beyond the safety issues to do with electricity, can badly hurt a person if they just collapse to a hard surface and hit their head which is another concern with a pain weapon like this).

Most of the shock categories require something like sudden massive blood loss, spinal cord damage, immune system severely overreacting, sepsis, etcetera. I'm trying to work out what the mechanism would be here.

Pain raises blood pressure which could cause a stroke or heart problems depending on the person's pre-existing conditions and lifestyle.

There's also the problem of non-mental damage that's still serious- PTSD etc. I could see these pain grenades being defined as war crimes irl.

On 11/26/2022 at 11:40 PM, Storyspren said:

My guess is that since feruchemy rips off part of your soul, it can steal anything. I further guess that we have seen people with stolen powers before and not known it, but that's neither here nor there. Why Hoid doesn't use Feruchemy... just ??? Voluntary spiking is a thing so maybe he will once that gets popular. Aaaaaand now I am off topic.

Cosmere All spoilers
 

Spoiler

Hoid has the inability to hurt other things (except cognitive shadows without a body like Kelsier) and this extends so far that he can't even eat meat. He also doesn't want to give shards influence over him.

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point.

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

--

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015)

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I don't think you use tin to store pain- I think you use it to store your ability to feel pain. So even if you completely turn off your pain, get stabbed with a knife, then someone else taps the painmind, I don't think they'd feel the pain of a stabbing. They'd just have increased sensitivity to pain

[Koloss17]

42 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I don't think you use tin to store pain- I think you use it to store your ability to feel pain. So even if you completely turn off your pain, get stabbed with a knife, then someone else taps the painmind, I don't think they'd feel the pain of a stabbing. They'd just have increased sensitivity to pain

Ah that’s a good point. I think you’re right.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I honestly thought it was a trellium alloy used.

[Trusk'our]

On 11/20/2022 at 2:38 PM, Koloss17 said:

So I just wanted to point it to all that might have missed it, we got confirmation in TLM by Telsin that F-tin can store pain. This is huge, as it makes (as far as I know) F-tin the only feruchemantic metal that can be utilized in a non-end neutral way. There’s nearly no reason to tap pain once it is stored, so you can easily throw out your painmind once full. 
 

Once again solidifying the absolute absurdity of F-tin. 

I think that a A-pewter Savant may want to tap pain, as they could then tell "oh hey, I am dying, maybe I should take a rest or see a doctor before I drop dead".

It would also perhaps be useful to increase one's sense of pain briefly so as to tell if you had anything going on in your body that wasn't good but was subtle enough that you normally would ignore it.

[Trusk'our]

On 11/29/2022 at 9:06 AM, robardin said:

How would you force someone to tap the tinmind though?

Well, it's not useful for many situations that don't involve torture, but you could Hemalurgically pierce someone with four or more spikes, and then use a duralumin empowered blast of Emotional Allomancy to control them, and force them to tap the increased sense of pain.

Probably not ethically acceptable though (especially not to me), and not useful in many situations anyway, since you could already control them.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 2/7/2023 at 7:03 AM, Trusk'our said:

Well, it's not useful for many situations that don't involve torture, but you could Hemalurgically pierce someone with four or more spikes, and then use a duralumin empowered blast of Emotional Allomancy to control them, and force them to tap the increased sense of pain.

Probably not ethically acceptable though (especially not to me), and not useful in many situations anyway, since you could already control them.

If you control them (which may not be possible in E2, see MAG sup. AoL. May being the key word - not necessarily canon), couldn't you just command them to tell you?

[Trusk'our]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If you control them (which may not be possible in E2, see MAG sup. AoL. May being the key word - not necessarily canon), couldn't you just command them to tell you?

Yup. Which doesn't make the whole torture thing very useful. 

[lacrossedeamon]

On 2/7/2023 at 10:03 AM, Trusk'our said:

Well, it's not useful for many situations that don't involve torture, but you could Hemalurgically pierce someone with four or more spikes, and then use a duralumin empowered blast of Emotional Allomancy to control them, and force them to tap the increased sense of pain.

Probably not ethically acceptable though (especially not to me), and not useful in many situations anyway, since you could already control them.

I wonder what happens with a primer cube tuned to F-tin would do? Would it heighten (tap) or dampen (store) the senses? Would it do anything? I think we've only seen it used to replicate Allomancy for now.

[Koloss17]

11 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I wonder what happens with a primer cube tuned to F-tin would do? Would it heighten (tap) or dampen (store) the senses? Would it do anything? I think we've only seen it used to replicate Allomancy for now.

Yeah that’s the big question. I don’t even know if we have confirmation that primer cubes CAN use feruchemy. Given that it’s implementing a god metal that encompasses the entirety of the magic system of Scadrial, I feel like it should, but I don’t really know.