Moonlight's Elantrian Stamp

[therunner]

So, Moonlight used Soul stamp to change into Elantrian, fair enough.
Then created a small fascimile of Elantris Aon Rao on a map of Basin to be able to have proper Aons  (at least that is what I think was happening).

However, where was the Investiture to power her Aons coming from? On Elantris it goes straight from Cognitive, and because of that Sel-based systems are typically 'region locked'. However, on Scadrial there is no such source of Investiture available, so what was going on? Were the Aons powered using the purified Dor she absorbed? If so, what would happen once she runs out, would she suffer incomplete Shaod without the Investiture to sustain Elantrian biology?

[Frustration]

The purified for is used to sustain her transformation so I'd say once it runs out the stamp will end.

[+MistMage]

This confused me too since Moonlight is running around at the end of lost metal, even though presumably the jar should have run out. I think when she redrew the aon using a map of scadrial, it allowed her to tap into the innate Investiture in Scadrial, from the fact that Ruin and Preservation deeply invested the whole planet, and draw on that power instead of the Dor. So she's just a fully powered Elantrian running around Scadrial, with no memory of her old life. The interesting bit is if she continues stamping herself. Because even Shai's best essence marks require stamping every 24 hours, so what would compel Elantrian Shai to keep stamping herself.

[Philomath]

44 minutes ago, MistMage said:

The interesting bit is if she continues stamping herself. Because even Shai's best essence marks require stamping every 24 hours, so what would compel Elantrian Shai to keep stamping herself.

Perhaps she convinced herself that not stamping every day will turn her into a fallen Elantrian irreversibly. 

[kenod]

Based on Shai's own words to Marasi when she's preparing to use it, I suspect that she either has to re-apply it herself, but does so willingly, or Shai has managed to improve on regular essence marks (perhaps using the liquid Dor as a power booster, since iirc regular Forgery doesn't use much investure) into something that is permanent and needs to be consciously dismissed.

[Returned]

There is a WoB about using an essence mark to become an Elantrian. Without a lot of Investiture to back it up it will work superficially (you'll look like an Elantrian and have the appropriate mindset and thoughts) but won't grant Elantrian powers. It shouldn't be Shaod-like, as the transformation isn't arrested due to blockage of the Dor, but the fuel for Elantrian magic in all its forms and applications won't be available. I imagine it would be like an Elantrian moving away from Sel entirely, even if they actually were on Sel.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could Shai Soul Forge herself into becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That would be really hard. First of all, she'd have to change where she's born, then Soul Forge the fact that she became an Elantrian. Even then, she'd probably look like an Elantrian, but not have any powers. There would probably need to be some kind of bridge, or she would need some kind of super push from AonDor to make it work.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

[Maximus]

I kind of feel like the key is the basin-shaped rune she made immediately after transformation. The purified Dor powered the transformation up to that point, but then the rune allowed her to pull investiture directly from... wherever investiture comes from (spiritual realm?) as if she was on Sel.

 

It makes me wonder if that original rune is still there and what happens if it is destroyed? What does it take to destroy an Elantrian rune? Maybe she recreated it somewhere more secure?

[TheoreticalMagic]

This makes me think about how way back when the first Mistborn series was currently being published, there was a lot of initial emphasis placed on the fact that technically....metals are NOT the focus for Investiture/magic on Scadrial.

Rather, its the molecular arrangements of those metals that act as a focus. In essence....a kind of pattern that Investiture is then channeled through in specific shapes and arrangements....aka magical manifestations.

So ironically.....despite Sel and Scadrial seeming to have very different kinds of magic...it might actually be EASIER to hack Elantrian magic on Scadrial as opposed to say, Nalthis or Roshar. Because Sel's region-based magic tends to use the shape of locales the magic user is Connected to as a kind of focus, or at least in part....meaning that on some level, Sel and Scadrial both use shape/pattern-based foci whereas places like Nalthis and Roshar seem to use wavelength/frequency based foci (I believe on Nalthis, colors are the fuel that ignites the magical consumption/usage of Investiture - in the form of Breaths - just like on Scadrial, metals are the fuel that ignites the magical consumption/usage of the Investiture innate in Scadrians.....but just like the pattern of the molecules in the metals are the actual focus that the Investiture is channeled through in order to differentiate the shape each magical manifestation takes, depending on the type of metal you burn....similarly I think its wavelengths that are the actual focus of magical manifestations on Nalthis....only, its NOT actually the wavelengths of the colors/where they fall on prismatic spectrums....but rather, I think in the cosmere, there are Cognitive and Spiritual wavelengths as well...and thus Commands and Oaths can have a kind of wavelength or frequencies that act as foci for magic, just as the Listeners' Rhythms do. But I digress).

So Moonlight used purified Dor to power the stamp that turned her into an Elantrian, yes....but on Scadrial, at least, she was able to power her Aons by hacking Scadrial's magic and channeling Investiture through locale-based patterns rather than molecular arrangement-based patterns.

Or something like that, at least. *Shrugs* Still so much we don't know about how hacking magic systems works.

(But incidentally, as I've theorized elsewhere that the men of gold and red might have started out as a Skai-created inverse or equivalent of Elantrians.....and magic on par with Elantrians is what makes them so terrifying as an army.....this could have a lot to do with them being the specific force Autonomy intended to use on Scadrial. Maybe this particular army ISN'T her go-to solution for every world she attempts to invade, conquer or destroy....but if they are Sel-originating, and Scadrial is a planet where its easier to hack Sel location/shape magics than other planets......it seems it'd be similarly easy or possible for Skai's magic systems to be hacked there as well. Just throwing that out there).

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by TheoreticalMagic

[SteelBagel]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:57 AM, Philomath said:

Perhaps she convinced herself that not stamping every day will turn her into a fallen Elantrian irreversibly. 

is there any reason she would do that? she doesn't want to become an elantrian permenantly.

[Returned]

2 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

is there any reason she would do that? she doesn't want to become an elantrian permenantly.

The new identity can think very differently from the original, and it can be hard to keep a very different identity on track with the original's wishes. Shai may not want to be an Elantrian permanently, but Shai-the-Elantrian-via-stamp doesn't even seem to appreciate that she's a Forgery (though she might, and she'd need some reason to keep stamping herself which would be made easier with some shade of the truth). If the deception Shai placed in her Forged mind is that she needs to stamp herself daily or she'll fall to the Reod, permanently, Shai-the-Elantrian-via-stamp would certainly want to avoid that fate by stamping.

[Criggleworth]

On 11/27/2022 at 9:41 AM, Maximus said:

I kind of feel like the key is the basin-shaped rune she made immediately after transformation. The purified Dor powered the transformation up to that point, but then the rune allowed her to pull investiture directly from... wherever investiture comes from (spiritual realm?) as if she was on Sel.

 

It makes me wonder if that original rune is still there and what happens if it is destroyed? What does it take to destroy an Elantrian rune? Maybe she recreated it somewhere more secure?

I think that basin rune is basically a wifi repeater. It calls to Elantris (perhaps there are other repeaters out there? Or maybe the Ire fortress is still near Scadrial in Shadesmar?) and tells Elantris where Shay-I is, where to send investiture to her. She almost certainly recreated it after leaving the cavern.

I believe that the continuous flow of Investiture to her as an Elantrian actually sustains the soulstamp. This book solidified that you can fuel abilities with multiple Investiture sources and I don't see why a soulstamp would be different. Instead of restamping to maintain the needed Investiture, the stamp just feeds off the Investiture that flows to her through her Connection to Elantris.

[SteelBagel]

20 hours ago, Returned said:

The new identity can think very differently from the original, and it can be hard to keep a very different identity on track with the original's wishes. Shai may not want to be an Elantrian permanently, but Shai-the-Elantrian-via-stamp doesn't even seem to appreciate that she's a Forgery (though she might, and she'd need some reason to keep stamping herself which would be made easier with some shade of the truth). If the deception Shai placed in her Forged mind is that she needs to stamp herself daily or she'll fall to the Reod, permanently, Shai-the-Elantrian-via-stamp would certainly want to avoid that fate by stamping.

RIght, but why would original shai put it in the mind of elantrian shai to keep stamping herself if original shai didn't want it to be permanent?

[Returned]

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

RIght, but why would original shai put it in the mind of elantrian shai to keep stamping herself if original shai didn't want it to be permanent?

We don't know very much about Essence Marks or their implications and consequences, nor exactly what Shai is undertaking on Scadrial or anywhere else. It could be anything. Mainly I would guess that, if she did something like that, it would be to keep the Forgery from fading at an inconvenient time. It seems like it would be hard to guarantee your needs will be met within 24 hours as a being that may be hard to harness to your goals. It also seems hard to ensure that continued stamping happens reliably and regularly but only for a few days; that strikes me as an awkward feature of a personality and general life history.

For all we know there are other considerations too. Some weird interaction with Forging an Elantrian identity? Maybe a Forged person (or some specific identities) would react badly to learning that she's an Essence Mark of a different, "real" person, and some cover is required to address the stamp lest the truth be revealed. It's even possible that there is a risk the Elantrian would be able to figure out what's going on and doesn't need any other impulse to stamp beyond self-preservation, so Shai didn't implant such a desire but the outcome could be the same anyways.

[lacrossedeamon]

I wonder if the Imperial Sceptre was needed for Shai to figure out how to carve the Elantrian Soul stamp and I wonder if she updated her martial arts one to include ChayShan. I'd love a novel that includes Shai actually creating this new stamp and getting recruited by the Ghostbloods. As of now onscreen they are 0 for 0 on recruitment of main characters.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

On 11/27/2022 at 9:41 AM, Maximus said:

It makes me wonder if that original rune is still there and what happens if it is destroyed? What does it take to destroy an Elantrian rune? Maybe she recreated it somewhere more secure?

I don't have the text on me but it is mentioned in Elantris that an Aon drawn by an Elantrian can only be broken by another Elantrian. Later we learn that Dakhor monks can break them as well, so presumably anything that can interfere with Investiture.

As a guess I'd say A-chromium could probably break one and a Bondsmith should certainly be able to.

edit: also Nightblood, how that wasn't literally the first thing I thought of I don't know.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SwordNimiForPresident

[GeoMantrix]

I figured Shay-I would persist because she's a better version.  

P.S.  Hard to imagine, since Shai is my 2nd favorite character in the Cosmere (after Lift).  But if Shai believes she's better, which how could she not be, as an Elantrian?  

Edited December 25, 2022 by GeoMantrix

[SwordNimiForPresident]

@GeoMantrix

Off topic, but thank you for your avatar. It made me learn something new.