The Big Epilogue lie

[GudThymes Arbiter]

I think most of us can agree that Sazed lied about the Lerasium to Kelsier in the epilogue. But in what way?

A. Blatantly.Straight forward, the kandra experiments made Lerasium and Sazed lied to Kelsier.

B. Omission. The kandra experiments actually didn't make Lerasium but Sazed knows how to do so using Wax's method.

 

I vote B, I think that the kandra didn't make Lerasium for the reasons Sazed said, their intent was to  detonate the Harmonium with bavadinium. Whereas when wax created the Lerasium he was trying to split the harmonium using magnetism and it worked (albeit not at 100% efficacy) and most was lost/expended in the resultant explosion. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by GudThymes
Mixed up epigraph and epilogue

[Frustration Nightwatcher]

I think that Wax is the only one who has made it and Harmony legitimately doesn't know why.

[Treamayne Originator]

in the topic title, do you mean Epilogue (chapter after the end)? Epigraph is the blurbs that start a chapter (llike Alendi's Logbook). 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think that Wax is the only one who has made it and Harmony legitimately doesn't know why.

Concur, with the addition that he said it the way he did to imply to Kell that it wasn't possible at all (not just that the Kanda could not duplicate the process).

After all, if Kell could use Lerasium (and did) then he would be a stronger version of himself in Era 1; but if Kell could give Lerasuim to other Ghostbloods. . . that's scary!

(Mraize shows that not all GBs are as beneficient as Shai/Moonlight)

 

[HSuperLee Seer]

I suspect that the second detonation that occurred when Wax was inspecting the remains of primary detonation was what actually created the Lerasium. I know Wax theorized that he must have gotten some remaining Harmonium wet, and that's what caused the second explosion, but since VenDell was there when Wax said that, Sazed probably had the Kandra attempt it. It makes me wonder what really caused that second explosion.

I do find it fascinating that Atium apparently survives the splitting of Harmonium. This book was the first time we got a good look at the chemical properties of godmetals, which makes me wonder how Lerasium is destroyed in an explosion. I mean it seems that godmetals can't change phase based only on energy input (I suspect they can be melted by filling them with enough investiture), so the heat of the explosion wouldn't destroy the Lerasium. It might not be as durable of a metal as Atium, but that just means that the Lerasium should still be there, just reduced to particles. But I imagine that's not too different from the Atium, which probably is collected as dust after the explosion and then reforged (in the weird way that seems to work with godmetals) into a form Marsh can use. So what exactly happens with the Lerasium? What is it reacting to that causes it to become something other than itself? I think whatever Wax did was taking something away from the environment, and that's what resulted in the Lerasium being formed. But that's just conjecture. 

[GudThymes Arbiter]

I like the train of thought of you have @HSuperLee. I reread the couple chapters around the experiment and one thing that is different about the 2nd explosion is the mention of acids, they mention both hyperchlorous and hydrochloric were present before Wax started is harmonium bavadinium experiment. When the second explosion happens wax is scraping the hot harmonium off the sides of the box where presumably there may be leftover chlorine acids or chlorine gas.

I think the chlorine interacting with harmonium is what actually stabilized the Lerasium. Since harmonium interacts with water in the same way as alkaline metals I assume that it would interact with chlorine in a similar way as an alkaline would and instead stabilize as a salt compound and leave leftover atium. 

 

An aside, why are kandra so afraid of acids? Would it have something to do with hemalurgy?

Edited November 19, 2022 by GudThymes
Typos

[HSuperLee Seer]

36 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

An aside, why are kandra so afraid of acids? Would it have something to do with hemalurgy?

That's actually pretty straightforward. Its really hard to damage a kandra when they can just reform their tissues. Sure, you can damage the bones they're using, but that doesn't actually hurt them, it just reduces them back to kandra-blobs. But if you chemically damage their cells, such as via fire or acid, that actually does substantial damage to them. Back in Era 1, that was how Kandra executed those who broke the First Contract.

[Kitch Lighteyes]

Intent is going to be a deciding factor I think on whether somebody can split harmonium. Wax had put in a lot of effort into the task, and his intent on trying to split it was strong.  Very similar to how investiture is split/combined on Roshar. Gotta have the right mindset 

[Subvisual Haze Steel Inquisitor]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

An aside, why are kandra so afraid of acids? Would it have something to do with hemalurgy?

I would guess because the acid could physically damage the little spikes that grant them sentience.  Or dissolve the connecting tissue around the spike so that the spike is no longer "connected" to the body.

[CognitiveShadow Oldblood]

53 minutes ago, Kitch said:

Intent is going to be a deciding factor I think on whether somebody can split harmonium. Wax had put in a lot of effort into the task, and his intent on trying to split it was strong.  Very similar to how investiture is split/combined on Roshar. Gotta have the right mindset 

I totally agree, this is where my train of thought is on this. I also think Sazed knows and understands this. He is pretending to not know a lot of stuff, acting like he isn’t in complete control. He’s being twisted into a mastermind OR evil genius by his dual intents. I mean the dual intents of Harmony and Discord, though. If he can’t bring about Harmony in the cosmere, he will collapse into accepting the Discord and leaning into it instead of fighting it. Or maybe he’s already secretly Discord and is loving all the conflicts popping up in and around Roshar

[kenod Highprince]

9 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I would guess because the acid could physically damage the little spikes that grant them sentience.  Or dissolve the connecting tissue around the spike so that the spike is no longer "connected" to the body.

 

11 hours ago, GudThymes said:

 

An aside, why are kandra so afraid of acids? Would it have something to do with hemalurgy?

Acid dissolves Kandra flesh. Most weapons don't do much to them, since they can just heal themselves, but since Acid actively destroys the flesh it can actually give them long-term injuries, or even kill them. Back in Era 1 Kandra used acid specifically for executions of other Kandra.

[Eldergod3 Ardent]

Its actually kind of genius, by creating atium and allowing the lerasium to return to preservation he could theoretically rebalance himself. Ruin is marginally stronger then preservation due to humans having slightly more preservation in them. The Pits no longer exist to gather the excess. 

[Treamayne Originator]

17 hours ago, GudThymes said:

An aside, why are kandra so afraid of acids? Would it have something to do with hemalurgy?

16 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

That's actually pretty straightforward. Its really hard to damage a kandra when they can just reform their tissues. Sure, you can damage the bones they're using, but that doesn't actually hurt them, it just reduces them back to kandra-blobs. But if you chemically damage their cells, such as via fire or acid, that actually does substantial damage to them. Back in Era 1, that was how Kandra executed those who broke the First Contract.

6 hours ago, kenod said:

Acid dissolves Kandra flesh. Most weapons don't do much to them, since they can just heal themselves, but since Acid actively destroys the flesh it can actually give them long-term injuries, or even kill them. Back in Era 1 Kandra used acid specifically for executions of other Kandra.

There is also the element of even if they survive, it is similar to a lobotomy. WoB:

Spoiler

zas678

TenSoon wonders, and I wonder too- How can kandra think and be sentient without brains? Doesn't the body need a physical coordinator to relay between the Physical and Cognitive realm? Or do the spikes do a good enough job with that?

Brandon Sanderson

I imagine kandra having a non-centralized nervous system, with brain power spread through their bodies. Well, non-centralized is probably the wrong way to say it. They have lobes of thought and memory attached to muscles here and there, and don't have a single 'brain.' They certainly have brain-like material, though.

Sure, if they lose an arm to acid, they can eat more "protein" and build extra flesh to fashion a new arm - but they'll never recover the lost memories the acid destroyed. . .

Edited November 19, 2022 by Treamayne
Formatting

[Isilel Dakhor Monk]

Oh, I think that Sazed absolutely lied, but in a third way. I believe that he personally put a thumb on the scale so that Wax's experiment would produce lerasium. Because when Wax asked what Harmony has done to him in chapter 66, Sazed said "But it didn't work as well as I'd hoped".  In my book he as good as admitted that the second explosion was planned by him. VenDell  also must have been prepared to steal the godmetals under everybody's noses so neatly, without leaving any traces. IMHO, ettmetal has more Ruin than Preservation, just like Harmony does, and Wax's method _does_ normally only result in atium. Which the kandra are now dutifully producing for Marsh's use. Except for this one time when Harmony needed it to be otherwise.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Isilel