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The Ghostbloods and The Cosmere Timeline


agrabes

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Quick warning note - this post assumes you have read both Lost Metal and RoW.

As I was reading the sections of LM that feature the Ghostbloods, I was really struck by the idea that the Ghostbloods we see in the Stormlight Archive seem different than the Ghostbloods of Mistborn Era 2, in terms of ideology, mission, and capabilities.  Based on the timelines we have of the Cosmere, we know that the general chronological order of events in the Cosmere is Mistborn Era 1, SA 1-5, Mistborn Era 2, SA 6-10, Mistborn Era 3.  The Ghostbloods Shallan encounters seem to be much more ruthless and self-centered than the ones Marasi deals with.  The Rosharan branch also appears to be much more established and extensive.  Based on the timeline we have, which says Shallan is meeting the Ghostbloods before Marasi, this doesn't make sense to me.  I have a few thoughts on why this might be the case and I thought I would put them out there to see what others think:

Theory 1: Kelsier's Manipulation - Kelsier is being intentionally deceptive about his true goals and motivations to the Ghostbloods who are on Scadrial.  He portrays his goals to be about defending Scadrial from dangerous forces in Cosmere that are out to get them, but in reality his goals are about achieving personal power and authority.  While on Scadrial, Kelsier is dealing with the watchful eye of Harmony.  He knows that Harmony would crack down on him if he were to directly challenge or rival Harmony for power and control of Scadrial so he puts on a kind face with any dealings that are directly to do with Scadrial.  He tells his followers there that they are serving a noble goal and puts a limit on the worst of his own ambitions in anything he does.  This results in a better culture of people in the Ghostbloods on Scadrial.  Offworld, Kelsier lays his ambitions bare.  He tells his offworld agents, particularly ones he can trust to work and lead autonomously, to gain power through whatever means necessary and supply it to him.  This leads to the nasty behavior of the Ghostbloods on Roshar.  It also explains why most of the Ghostbloods, despite being an organization that is meant to "protect Scadrial" are operating more intensively off Scadrial than they are on Scadrial.  If they were really working to protect Scadrial as their primary purpose, they would have been working harder to share knowledge there and advance their technology, magic, etc.

Theory 2: Timelines are Off - Sanderson has said the timelines are a bit flexible and haven't yet been set in stone.  He will adjust things such that SA1-5 come after Era 3.  This would make sense - Kelsier may start the Ghostbloods as an idealistic group seeking to gain power and knowledge with a true intent of making Scadrial a better place.  During LM, they are still in the idealistic phase.  Sure, they are willing to overlook the greater good for their own mission to some extent, but are still made up of good people who want to help others as we see with Marasi's experience.  In SA1-5, they've lost that idealism.  Maybe Kelsier gets burned by Harmony after trying to help the Scadrians "too much".  By the time Shallan meets the Ghostbloods, they've been transformed into a group that cares only about power and secrets and don't mind murdering people to keep them.

Theory 3: Marasi's Experience is Unique - Due to the unique circumstances of Marasi's experience (Scadrial in existential threat from Autonomy), the Scadrian Ghostbloods are unusually nice and open to Marasi.  Had they not felt the need to cooperate in order to save Scadrial and themselves, they would have been much more secretive and Marasi's experience would have been a lot more like Shallan's.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.  I personally think the first one is most likely to be true.  Let me know how you all see things.

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Kelsier doesn't have any real oversight on the Rosharan Ghostbloods, so their are borderline a rogue element

Spoiler

Questioner

Are the Ghostbloods good, in your mind, or bad?

Brandon Sanderson

They are neither, in my mind.

Questioner

Does their leader, Thaidakar, affect what they do a lot?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the Roshar branch is a little bit removed from him.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15014

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier doesn't have any real oversight on the Rosharan Ghostbloods, so their are borderline a rogue element

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Are the Ghostbloods good, in your mind, or bad?

Brandon Sanderson

They are neither, in my mind.

Questioner

Does their leader, Thaidakar, affect what they do a lot?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the Roshar branch is a little bit removed from him.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15014

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, I hadn't seen that WoB before.  It's fairly recent too.  That said though - he says they are "a bit removed" but not that they are a rogue element.  We see in RoW that Kelsier is in contact with them regularly enough and I don't remember him ever expressing that he was unhappy with how the Ghostbloods operate on Roshar even if he's not able to give them real time instructions.  He's not there to directly observe, but he still has his chosen leaders there.  It's also implied the Ghostbloods have a presence on many worlds, so it seems strange that we should expect the Roshar branch is significantly worse than the others.  So, I think at best you could say Kelsier is getting the wool pulled over his eyes by a bad subordinate leader and at worst he's willing to turn a blind eye to bad behavior as long as it gets results.

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On 11/18/2022 at 11:25 AM, Frustration said:

Kelsier doesn't have any real oversight on the Rosharan Ghostbloods, so their are borderline a rogue element

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Are the Ghostbloods good, in your mind, or bad?

Brandon Sanderson

They are neither, in my mind.

Questioner

Does their leader, Thaidakar, affect what they do a lot?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the Roshar branch is a little bit removed from him.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15014

 

 

 

 

 

Easiest answer is that Sanderson explicitly said that Kell is the kind person who runs schemes that attract bad actors, but he's good at maintaining order/civility in ppl under his direct control. So if he was on Roshar he could probably maniuplate Iylatil and Mraize into behaving, but he can't so they're back on their crem dung.

Another answer based on older WOBs is that Kell didn't start the Ghostbloods and so the Roshar operatives we see are more associated with whatever the OG organization was about. Would help explain how they're so established in Silverlight and Roshar when Kell can't have been operating offworld that long (I guess  up to 300 years, but that would have been very quick to get off the ground even for him). And also why Kell says that the first tenant is Scadrial nationalism which doesn't make sense for a world-hopper organization. It would also thematically match with the way the Kell co-opted and took over the existing Skaa rebellion to fuel his own goals.

Have to take with a grain of salt b/c this is all Thaidakar reveals so it might be worded in a way because Sanderson is trying to hide the surprise but he does say that Kell is only a of the Ghostbloods not the leader. Also one of the first connections between him and them is a WOB saying that Kell had to join a Rosharan society he would join the Ghostbloods and "be in charge of them within a year".

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Hmm, just finished reading and headed over here; bear with me if I repeat stuff discussed  somewhere else.

Concerning the timelines: don’t we have a perfect anchor with the following quote: 

Quote

"TwinSoul hated being unable to get a full read on the man’s expressions, but Dlavil—like his sister who ran amok on Roshar—wore a mask that he never removed;"

 – The Lost Metal: A Mistborn Novel (The Mistborn Saga Book 7) von Brandon Sanderson
https://amzn.eu/8GFwSMe

I took it for granted, that this sister must be the masked Ghostblood from SLA. So far she did nothing which aligns with my understanding of “running amok”, so we can expect her to do this in SLA-5 IMHO.

Added: Iyatil it is.

 

Edited by Michael Portz
Adding Iyatil as reference
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On 11/18/2022 at 1:10 PM, agrabes said:

Quick warning note - this post assumes you have read both Lost Metal and RoW.

As I was reading the sections of LM that feature the Ghostbloods, I was really struck by the idea that the Ghostbloods we see in the Stormlight Archive seem different than the Ghostbloods of Mistborn Era 2, in terms of ideology, mission, and capabilities.  Based on the timelines we have of the Cosmere, we know that the general chronological order of events in the Cosmere is Mistborn Era 1, SA 1-5, Mistborn Era 2, SA 6-10, Mistborn Era 3.  The Ghostbloods Shallan encounters seem to be much more ruthless and self-centered than the ones Marasi deals with.  The Rosharan branch also appears to be much more established and extensive.  Based on the timeline we have, which says Shallan is meeting the Ghostbloods before Marasi, this doesn't make sense to me.  I have a few thoughts on why this might be the case and I thought I would put them out there to see what others think:

Theory 1: Kelsier's Manipulation - Kelsier is being intentionally deceptive about his true goals and motivations to the Ghostbloods who are on Scadrial.  He portrays his goals to be about defending Scadrial from dangerous forces in Cosmere that are out to get them, but in reality his goals are about achieving personal power and authority.  While on Scadrial, Kelsier is dealing with the watchful eye of Harmony.  He knows that Harmony would crack down on him if he were to directly challenge or rival Harmony for power and control of Scadrial so he puts on a kind face with any dealings that are directly to do with Scadrial.  He tells his followers there that they are serving a noble goal and puts a limit on the worst of his own ambitions in anything he does.  This results in a better culture of people in the Ghostbloods on Scadrial.  Offworld, Kelsier lays his ambitions bare.  He tells his offworld agents, particularly ones he can trust to work and lead autonomously, to gain power through whatever means necessary and supply it to him.  This leads to the nasty behavior of the Ghostbloods on Roshar.  It also explains why most of the Ghostbloods, despite being an organization that is meant to "protect Scadrial" are operating more intensively off Scadrial than they are on Scadrial.  If they were really working to protect Scadrial as their primary purpose, they would have been working harder to share knowledge there and advance their technology, magic, etc.

Theory 2: Timelines are Off - Sanderson has said the timelines are a bit flexible and haven't yet been set in stone.  He will adjust things such that SA1-5 come after Era 3.  This would make sense - Kelsier may start the Ghostbloods as an idealistic group seeking to gain power and knowledge with a true intent of making Scadrial a better place.  During LM, they are still in the idealistic phase.  Sure, they are willing to overlook the greater good for their own mission to some extent, but are still made up of good people who want to help others as we see with Marasi's experience.  In SA1-5, they've lost that idealism.  Maybe Kelsier gets burned by Harmony after trying to help the Scadrians "too much".  By the time Shallan meets the Ghostbloods, they've been transformed into a group that cares only about power and secrets and don't mind murdering people to keep them.

Theory 3: Marasi's Experience is Unique - Due to the unique circumstances of Marasi's experience (Scadrial in existential threat from Autonomy), the Scadrian Ghostbloods are unusually nice and open to Marasi.  Had they not felt the need to cooperate in order to save Scadrial and themselves, they would have been much more secretive and Marasi's experience would have been a lot more like Shallan's.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.  I personally think the first one is most likely to be true.  Let me know how you all see things.

How exactly our they different. To be they seem pretty much the same.  Secretive, searching for knowledge and power, and will to kill if someone gets in there way.

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On 18.11.2022 at 8:10 PM, agrabes said:

Quick warning note - this post assumes you have read both Lost Metal and RoW.

As I was reading the sections of LM that feature the Ghostbloods, I was really struck by the idea that the Ghostbloods we see in the Stormlight Archive seem different than the Ghostbloods of Mistborn Era 2, in terms of ideology, mission, and capabilities.  Based on the timelines we have of the Cosmere, we know that the general chronological order of events in the Cosmere is Mistborn Era 1, SA 1-5, Mistborn Era 2, SA 6-10, Mistborn Era 3.  The Ghostbloods Shallan encounters seem to be much more ruthless and self-centered than the ones Marasi deals with.  The Rosharan branch also appears to be much more established and extensive.  Based on the timeline we have, which says Shallan is meeting the Ghostbloods before Marasi, this doesn't make sense to me.  I have a few thoughts on why this might be the case and I thought I would put them out there to see what others think:

[...]

Anyway, just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.  I personally think the first one is most likely to be true.  Let me know how you all see things.

And coming back to agrabes' original post. One could interpret TwoSouls thoughts of Iyatil "running amok" as rejection of her leading style during the formation phase of the Ghostblood branch on Roshar. Follwing this thought one would be able connect 1. the differences of both branches and 2. the fact that Kelsier and TwoSouls DO know about her (and her acolyte Mraizes) problematic views.

5 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Hmm, just finished reading and headed over here; bear with me if I repeat stuff discussed  somewhere else.

Concerning the timelines: don’t we have a perfect anchor with the following quote: 

I took it for granted, that this sister must be the masked Ghostblood from SLA. So far she did nothing which aligns with my understanding of “running amok”, so we can expect her to do this in SLA-5 IMHO.

Added: Iyatil it is.

 

 

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On 11/18/2022 at 2:10 PM, agrabes said:

Quick warning note - this post assumes you have read both Lost Metal and RoW.

As I was reading the sections of LM that feature the Ghostbloods, I was really struck by the idea that the Ghostbloods we see in the Stormlight Archive seem different than the Ghostbloods of Mistborn Era 2, in terms of ideology, mission, and capabilities.  Based on the timelines we have of the Cosmere, we know that the general chronological order of events in the Cosmere is Mistborn Era 1, SA 1-5, Mistborn Era 2, SA 6-10, Mistborn Era 3.  The Ghostbloods Shallan encounters seem to be much more ruthless and self-centered than the ones Marasi deals with.  The Rosharan branch also appears to be much more established and extensive.  Based on the timeline we have, which says Shallan is meeting the Ghostbloods before Marasi, this doesn't make sense to me.  I have a few thoughts on why this might be the case and I thought I would put them out there to see what others think:

Theory 1: Kelsier's Manipulation - Kelsier is being intentionally deceptive about his true goals and motivations to the Ghostbloods who are on Scadrial.  He portrays his goals to be about defending Scadrial from dangerous forces in Cosmere that are out to get them, but in reality his goals are about achieving personal power and authority.  While on Scadrial, Kelsier is dealing with the watchful eye of Harmony.  He knows that Harmony would crack down on him if he were to directly challenge or rival Harmony for power and control of Scadrial so he puts on a kind face with any dealings that are directly to do with Scadrial.  He tells his followers there that they are serving a noble goal and puts a limit on the worst of his own ambitions in anything he does.  This results in a better culture of people in the Ghostbloods on Scadrial.  Offworld, Kelsier lays his ambitions bare.  He tells his offworld agents, particularly ones he can trust to work and lead autonomously, to gain power through whatever means necessary and supply it to him.  This leads to the nasty behavior of the Ghostbloods on Roshar.  It also explains why most of the Ghostbloods, despite being an organization that is meant to "protect Scadrial" are operating more intensively off Scadrial than they are on Scadrial.  If they were really working to protect Scadrial as their primary purpose, they would have been working harder to share knowledge there and advance their technology, magic, etc.

Theory 2: Timelines are Off - Sanderson has said the timelines are a bit flexible and haven't yet been set in stone.  He will adjust things such that SA1-5 come after Era 3.  This would make sense - Kelsier may start the Ghostbloods as an idealistic group seeking to gain power and knowledge with a true intent of making Scadrial a better place.  During LM, they are still in the idealistic phase.  Sure, they are willing to overlook the greater good for their own mission to some extent, but are still made up of good people who want to help others as we see with Marasi's experience.  In SA1-5, they've lost that idealism.  Maybe Kelsier gets burned by Harmony after trying to help the Scadrians "too much".  By the time Shallan meets the Ghostbloods, they've been transformed into a group that cares only about power and secrets and don't mind murdering people to keep them.

Theory 3: Marasi's Experience is Unique - Due to the unique circumstances of Marasi's experience (Scadrial in existential threat from Autonomy), the Scadrian Ghostbloods are unusually nice and open to Marasi.  Had they not felt the need to cooperate in order to save Scadrial and themselves, they would have been much more secretive and Marasi's experience would have been a lot more like Shallan's.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.  I personally think the first one is most likely to be true.  Let me know how you all see things.

 

On 11/18/2022 at 2:25 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Kelsier doesn't have any real oversight on the Rosharan Ghostbloods, so their are borderline a rogue element

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Are the Ghostbloods good, in your mind, or bad?

Brandon Sanderson

They are neither, in my mind.

Questioner

Does their leader, Thaidakar, affect what they do a lot?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the Roshar branch is a little bit removed from him.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15014

 

 

 

 

I would second this - I think that Kel does have Scads best interest at heart, but we know he wants more power. So in "general" I think he is still a "good man" as Sazed once said. That being said, I think he has a lot less control over his Rosharan team than he would like, especially with Mraize being so brutal. I almost view Mraize as what Kel would be like, if he didn't care anymore....

 

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To me, Iyatil's brother (forgot his name lmao) seemed to be one of the more ruthless of the Scadrian Branch, so if Iyatil is running the Rosharan branch with less oversight and she is similarly ruthless I could see that leading to the Rosharan Ghostbloods being more like they are in SA. Also, because they aren't trying to protect Roshar they can do more villainous things e.g. capturing Lift for the Fused. If they were defending Roshar, it'd be like giving a child metalborn to Autonomy in exchange for access to her Perpendicularity but they aren't defending Roshar

Sorry if this is a bit rambly  

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5 hours ago, endnighthazer said:

To me, Iyatil's brother (forgot his name lmao) seemed to be one of the more ruthless of the Scadrian Branch, so if Iyatil is running the Rosharan branch with less oversight and she is similarly ruthless I could see that leading to the Rosharan Ghostbloods being more like they are in SA. Also, because they aren't trying to protect Roshar they can do more villainous things e.g. capturing Lift for the Fused. If they were defending Roshar, it'd be like giving a child metalborn to Autonomy in exchange for access to her Perpendicularity but they aren't defending Roshar

Sorry if this is a bit rambly  

This makes the most sense. 

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On 11/26/2022 at 8:00 AM, bmcclure7 said:

How exactly our they different. To be they seem pretty much the same.  Secretive, searching for knowledge and power, and will to kill if someone gets in there way.

The difference in the two branches, at least in my view, is that on Roshar the Ghostbloods are definitely "bad" aligned.  They aren't aligned with Odium, but they are a criminal organization.  They are essentially the mafia.  They use underhanded tactics to coerce people into doing what they want - we are given the main example of how they treat Shallan.  They kidnap her family to force her to do what they want.  They are also more advanced and widespread in Roshar.  The implication in Roshar is that they have huge numbers of members, have infiltrated essentially every facet of society, and can reach out and pretty much do whatever they want to anyone.  They mostly succeed in killing a main character who is one of the most powerful people in the world.

Compare that to the Scadrian Ghostbloods and the difference is significant.  They are willing to use underhanded tactics, but only in relatively minor ways.  They're willing to walk away and let people die in order to reduce the risk to themselves, but they were willing to take on additional risk to help Marasi without too much prodding even though they didn't really have to in order to accomplish their mission.  The Rosharan Ghostbloods would have said no way and left Marasi on her own.  You also get the feeling that they would not kidnap people or assassinate people to achieve their goals.  They would lie and steal and keep things a secret, but it also feels like they would try not to hit any one person too hard that they couldn't recover from it, etc.  Most of the Ghostbloods we se on Scadrial also seem to be good people who want to do good things.  They also seem to be less powerful and less ever-present in Scadrial society.  While some of them probably have the individual power to win or at least be competitive in a one on one fight with Wax or Wayne, as an organization they feel less powerful.  It doesn't feel like the Scadrian Ghostbloods could just walk in and kill an important leader.  If the goal of all the Ghostbloods is to import power to Scadrial, and if they've been doing this for hundreds of years at the time of TLM, the Scadrian Ghostbloods should feel extremely powerful.  But they don't - their reserves allow them to sort of go toe to toe with our heroes and the main bad guys for a little while, but if they're really the focus of a Cosmere wide group funnelling power they should be basically untouchable.

On 11/21/2022 at 2:02 AM, Could Be Fire said:

Easiest answer is that Sanderson explicitly said that Kell is the kind person who runs schemes that attract bad actors, but he's good at maintaining order/civility in ppl under his direct control. So if he was on Roshar he could probably maniuplate Iylatil and Mraize into behaving, but he can't so they're back on their crem dung.

Another answer based on older WOBs is that Kell didn't start the Ghostbloods and so the Roshar operatives we see are more associated with whatever the OG organization was about. Would help explain how they're so established in Silverlight and Roshar when Kell can't have been operating offworld that long (I guess  up to 300 years, but that would have been very quick to get off the ground even for him). And also why Kell says that the first tenant is Scadrial nationalism which doesn't make sense for a world-hopper organization. It would also thematically match with the way the Kell co-opted and took over the existing Skaa rebellion to fuel his own goals.

Have to take with a grain of salt b/c this is all Thaidakar reveals so it might be worded in a way because Sanderson is trying to hide the surprise but he does say that Kell is only a of the Ghostbloods not the leader. Also one of the first connections between him and them is a WOB saying that Kell had to join a Rosharan society he would join the Ghostbloods and "be in charge of them within a year".

This makes sense at least as far as it goes with the difference in Scadrial-Roshar Ghostbloods.  If Kelsier was there directly supervising, he'd keep the Rosharan Ghostbloods in line and prevent the worst of their excesses.  He would have no qualms with allowing bad people in the Ghostbloods (as we see in TLM) and isn't all that bothered by what the Rosharan ones were doing (otherwise he'd make a change in their leadership), but at least when he's directly involved he's not going to allow certain things to happen.  He's the kind of leader who leads by force of personality rather than creating good procedures, good lasting culture, etc.

As far as the Kelsier/Ghostblood ideology mismatch - I agree there is a mismatch.  I think the most likely cause is that Kelsier is lying about the true motivations behind the Ghostbloods.  I think he does want to protect Scadrial, but as a secondary goal.  His primary goal is personal power - maybe due to a combination of egomania and trauma from being hurt by an extremely powerful being like TLR.  He wants to become so powerful no one can hurt him again.  It's a lot easier to recruit people when you are saying "Let's save Roshar from powerful predatory beings" rather than "Make me powerful so I don't have to hurt again."  I don't think he co-opted an existing movement.  I think a lot of the WoB's about his involvement are Sanderson's way of answering questions while not spoiling the plot for people, like you said.  But, I could definitely see your view being right as well.  

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The question that keeps popping up in my mind as I read and think about the differences of Ghostblood factions we've seen is whether the Rosharan Ghostbloods have the same three tenets as the Scadrians outlined by Kelsier, specifically the first one about protecting Scadrial? You're all discussing the obvious and noticeable differences between the two groups and I like the angle of how it fits into the timeline and how there are some contradictions and inconsistencies based on what we know.

For me, I guess I'm just most interested in is whether the goals and actions of the Rosharan group during the Stormlight Archive are in some way "to protect Scadrial" or has that intent been corrupted or is different by planet? Is the first rule of the Roshar Ghostbloods to protect Roshar and likewise for other worlds? It also appears there is a specific sub goal, unknown by most in the organization, to free Kelsier from being tethered and stuck on Scadrial. I guess you can skew or spin any action to somehow protecting Scadrial while doing it to accomplish other goals.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Coriniroc said:

The question that keeps popping up in my mind as I read and think about the differences of Ghostblood factions we've seen is whether the Rosharan Ghostbloods have the same three tenets as the Scadrians outlined by Kelsier, specifically the first one about protecting Scadrial? You're all discussing the obvious and noticeable differences between the two groups and I like the angle of how it fits into the timeline and how there are some contradictions and inconsistencies based on what we know.

For me, I guess I'm just most interested in is whether the goals and actions of the Rosharan group during the Stormlight Archive are in some way "to protect Scadrial" or has that intent been corrupted or is different by planet? Is the first rule of the Roshar Ghostbloods to protect Roshar and likewise for other worlds? It also appears there is a specific sub goal, unknown by most in the organization, to free Kelsier from being tethered and stuck on Scadrial. I guess you can skew or spin any action to somehow protecting Scadrial while doing it to accomplish other goals.

 

 

I think this is a good point and it's something that's also been at the back of my mind - why would a native Rosharan sign up for an organization that has a goal to "Protect Scadrial"?  If Kelsier or Iyatil came to a Rosharan and said "please take power from your planet so that my planet can be more powerful, in return I'll tell you a few secrets and you can be part of our cool club" would they really agree to that?  Why would they do it?  Maybe if they knew people on Scadrial or had some reason to believe the Scadrians were in a really bad situation and needed humanitarian aid, but that also doesn't make any sense.  Based on everything we know as readers, the Scadrians are better off than the Rosharans, especially at the time of SA1-4.  Even if the Ghostbloods were totally open with all members everywhere and said their number one motivation is to protect Scadrial, that would not make sense.

There must be another motivation for the Ghostbloods on other worlds, especially when it comes down to sending power offworld.  I could understand them joining because of the allure of being in a secret organization, but not participating in the part where they reduce their own strength to help out a planet they've never been to that is in less danger than they are.

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Based on the second tenet of the Ghostbloods which is consistent for both planets, they ONLY share information with full members, so it's possible no one knows about tenet 1 until they are a full member. We've only seen two recruitments and largely they are appealing to people with otherworldly knowledge who will be hungry and motivated to get more knowledge. So it's possible that everyone from Mraize to Codenames just want to be in the know and then subsequently find out about why they're doing what they do. This could probably lead the differing groups like Roshar to 'freelance' if you will. A group of people, who have no tethers to the planet they are protecting, and therefore are manipulating the mission a bit for their own or own planets benefit?

On Roshar, they largely seem most concerned with preventing the return of the Radiants by trying to kill Jasnah and working against the Sons of Honor. I suppose not allowing Odium to escape does serve well to protect Scadrial, although they don't seem too upset that their mission largely fails. They also move to understand how to get investiture off world but that seems largely to be serving Kelsier's main purpose of escaping the planet with some bonus benefits like facilitating trade. Getting Kelsier off world maybe can be spun to be in service of "protecting Scadrial' too.

It's also possible that maybe protecting Scadrial is not necessarily just a mission to promote it's continued existence, but is an action that will protect the Cosmere, or their vision of what that means? 

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On 28/11/2022 at 6:23 PM, Coriniroc said:

It's also possible that maybe protecting Scadrial is not necessarily just a mission to promote it's continued existence, but is an action that will protect the Cosmere, or their vision of what that means? 

I agree with this. In fact, I think Shai herself says that even though she's not a Scadrian, protecting Scadrial is something that matters on a Cosmere level.

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On 28.11.2022 at 11:21 PM, IndigoAjah said:

If we had to guess a language for Thaidakar to come from (and it sounds like a title to me), what do we think it would be?

Classic Scadrian. I am assuming that we are getting translations.

Where we are getting the literal names, such as in Hammondar Bay, the suffix "-ar" matches. It does not phonetically match what we have seen of Southern Scadrian names.

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Classic Scadrian. I am assuming that we are getting translations.

Where we are getting the literal names, such as in Hammondar Bay, the suffix "-ar" matches. It does not phonetically match what we have seen of Southern Scadrian names.

Under Classic Scadrian, I assume you mean the distant dialect of Terris that was spoken during the events of Mistborn, not the languages that were spoken during the Classic era of Scadrial, because in the Classic era there were many different empires and languages. 

On 11/29/2022 at 0:21 AM, IndigoAjah said:

If we had to guess a language for Thaidakar to come from (and it sounds like a title to me), what do we think it would be?

If it is in the Scadrian language, then it would be logical that it would mean The Survivor, because that's Kelsiers most famous title and we never hear it said, because it is in the Scadrian language. 

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1 hour ago, Ati16 said:

Under Classic Scadrian, I assume you mean the distant dialect of Terris that was spoken during the events of Mistborn, not the languages that were spoken during the Classic era of Scadrial, because in the Classic era there were many different empires and languages. 

Yes, sorry for the confusion. How should we call that? Late Standard Imperial?

1 hour ago, Ati16 said:

If it is in the Scadrian language, then it would be logical that it would mean The Survivor, because that's Kelsiers most famous title and we never hear it said, because it is in the Scadrian language. 

Brandon on the meaning of Thaidakar

That would be plausible but Brandon said otherwise. It may also mean "Sovereign" or "Crew Leader", "Mistborn" or simply "Boss". It could also be a reference to the organization and mean something like "ghost" or "shadow". Or very prosaic, Kelsier's family name. Given his sense of humor I would not even rule out that it refers to the maritial status of his parents.

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58 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, sorry for the confusion. How should we call that? Late Standard Imperial?

Right now we don't really have a definite name for that language, because there were almost no other languages(with the exception of terris) actively spoken in the original trilogy. We could call it after the people who lived there, the skaa and nobles, but since it was spoken by both, it would be wrong to call it after either race. I think for now we should just call it Scadrian until we get an appropriate WoB for this question.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That would be plausible but Brandon said otherwise. It may also mean "Sovereign" or "Crew Leader", "Mistborn" or simply "Boss". It could also be a reference to the organization and mean something like "ghost" or "shadow". Or very prosaic, Kelsier's family name. Given his sense of humor I would not even rule out that it refers to the maritial status of his parents.

If the scadrian Ghostbloods would have called Kelsier by some title we haven't heard that would have clued us in, but they seemed to be close enough with him that they just called him Kell. The title "Thaidakar", might just be what the rosharan Ghostbloods call him and the scadrians just see him so frequently that they just do not see the need to call him by some title.

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On 11/28/2022 at 2:22 PM, agrabes said:

The difference in the two branches, at least in my view, is that on Roshar the Ghostbloods are definitely "bad" aligned.  They aren't aligned with Odium, but they are a criminal organization.  They are essentially the mafia.  They use underhanded tactics to coerce people into doing what they want - we are given the main example of how they treat Shallan.  They kidnap her family to force her to do what they want.  They are also more advanced and widespread in Roshar.  The implication in Roshar is that they have huge numbers of members, have infiltrated essentially every facet of society, and can reach out and pretty much do whatever they want to anyone.  They mostly succeed in killing a main character who is one of the most powerful people in the world.

Compare that to the Scadrian Ghostbloods and the difference is significant.  They are willing to use underhanded tactics, but only in relatively minor ways.  They're willing to walk away and let people die in order to reduce the risk to themselves, but they were willing to take on additional risk to help Marasi without too much prodding even though they didn't really have to in order to accomplish their mission.  The Rosharan Ghostbloods would have said no way and left Marasi on her own.  You also get the feeling that they would not kidnap people or assassinate people to achieve their goals.  They would lie and steal and keep things a secret, but it also feels like they would try not to hit any one person too hard that they couldn't recover from it, etc.  Most of the Ghostbloods we se on Scadrial also seem to be good people who want to do good things.  They also seem to be less powerful and less ever-present in Scadrial society.  While some of them probably have the individual power to win or at least be competitive in a one on one fight with Wax or Wayne, as an organization they feel less powerful.  It doesn't feel like the Scadrian Ghostbloods could just walk in and kill an important leader.  If the goal of all the Ghostbloods is to import power to Scadrial, and if they've been doing this for hundreds of years at the time of TLM, the Scadrian Ghostbloods should feel extremely powerful.  But they don't - their reserves allow them to sort of go toe to toe with our heroes and the main bad guys for a little while, but if they're really the focus of a Cosmere wide group funnelling power they should be basically untouchable.

This makes sense at least as far as it goes with the difference in Scadrial-Roshar Ghostbloods.  If Kelsier was there directly supervising, he'd keep the Rosharan Ghostbloods in line and prevent the worst of their excesses.  He would have no qualms with allowing bad people in the Ghostbloods (as we see in TLM) and isn't all that bothered by what the Rosharan ones were doing (otherwise he'd make a change in their leadership), but at least when he's directly involved he's not going to allow certain things to happen.  He's the kind of leader who leads by force of personality rather than creating good procedures, good lasting culture, etc.

As far as the Kelsier/Ghostblood ideology mismatch - I agree there is a mismatch.  I think the most likely cause is that Kelsier is lying about the true motivations behind the Ghostbloods.  I think he does want to protect Scadrial, but as a secondary goal.  His primary goal is personal power - maybe due to a combination of egomania and trauma from being hurt by an extremely powerful being like TLR.  He wants to become so powerful no one can hurt him again.  It's a lot easier to recruit people when you are saying "Let's save Roshar from powerful predatory beings" rather than "Make me powerful so I don't have to hurt again."  I don't think he co-opted an existing movement.  I think a lot of the WoB's about his involvement are Sanderson's way of answering questions while not spoiling the plot for people, like you said.  But, I could definitely see your view being right as well.  

I still don't see a difference in there ideology methods maybe a little bit,  but not ideology. 

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