CarTorSan

About Kelsier's OTHER spike

21 posts in this topic

So, this is my first theory in years, and I maybe did two before this; also, English is not my mother tongue. Furthermore, I just finished The Lost Metal, and haven't given the proper time to research and revise WoBs before I write this (anyone does?). Therefore, I apologize beforehand for whichever mistake I make.

Now, let's get to it:

In Kelsier's epilogue, he thinks about how Hemalurgy "had proven ineffective on what he'd become. It held his soul and body together, but no more", and he had hope, "hope he'd be able to touch the metals he could see in the world all around him". We're going to ignore the question that arises, if he can or can't physically touch metals, and instead understand his words as "Kelsier cannot use Allomancy in his current state".

Does this mean that Kelsier has lost his prime Allomantic abilities? Did it happen when the Lord Ruler killed him? I think that's not the case, though there could be some WoB that say otherwise. I think that, when Kelsier died, the ability to access Allomancy was severed, but not extinguished. Much more like the link between his physical body and his congnitive shadow state were severed. We know that his eye's spike is made of steel, therefore it lacks something to link body to mind and soul. 

That brings us to the following theory:I think Kelsier had another spike before getting his eye's, this one made of aluminum. And here's why:

Aluminum, according to the chart in TLM Ars Arcanum, has the Feruchemical power to store Identity. Also, as a Hemalurgic spike, it has the power to remove all powers. Hence, the core of my theory is that he used some kind of Aluminum medallion to store his Identity there (though I don't know if a cognitive shadow can access medallions, or if there's a WoB explaining it), then got someone to move it to the Physical Realm and stab his body with it, we don't know where. BUT, as he was Mistborn, the aluminum spike removed all his former powers and, potentially, his ability to use his steel one to touch metals around him.

That would also could explain why Lerasium wouldn't work on him, as Sazed says, since the aluminum spike would automatically wipe out the new powers Lerasium brought.

So, that's my theory for you guys. I hope I made it alright. Comments, opinions and insightful responses from someone who knows WAY more than I do would be appreciated.

Thanks everybody for reading this far!!!

Edited by CarTorSan
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That is a very interesting theory. I just assumed he couldn't use his abilities because his soul was attached but not his abilities. 

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16 hours ago, Dawnshard said:

That is a very interesting theory. I just assumed he couldn't use his abilities because his soul was attached but not his abilities. 

That could still be the case, but I'm inclined to think that his Spiritual aspect hasn't changed or been altered, neither by his death nor by anything else. 

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The Metallic Arts are Genetic, its possible his current body doesn’t possess the Mistborn gene. I’m of the opinion that they retrieved his bones threw them into a Mistwraith then spiked it. 

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On 11/19/2022 at 10:19 AM, Eldergod3 said:

The Metallic Arts are Genetic, its possible his current body doesn’t possess the Mistborn gene. I’m of the opinion that they retrieved his bones threw them into a Mistwraith then spiked it. 

The metallic arts are traced in *spiritual* genetics, not normal genetics like we have

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An Aluminum Spike stored with his Identity made as a Kandra Blessing, perhaps?  That would make some kind of sense.  The sentience the Kandra gets is his.  But Kandra can't use Allomancy, so he can't either. Or maybe the alluminum keeps it from happening.  That's a good theory.  

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2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

An Aluminum Spike stored with his Identity made as a Kandra Blessing, perhaps?  That would make some kind of sense.  The sentience the Kandra gets is his.  But Kandra can't use Allomancy, so he can't either. Or maybe the alluminum keeps it from happening.  That's a good theory.  

Ohhh that could make sense, yeah. If it took an aluminum spike to bring him to life, that would also stop him from using his powers.

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I do not think this would work, duralumin steels Connection, which could be used to Connect Kelsier's CS to the PR. I do not think aluminum would have this ability.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I do not think this would work, duralumin steels Connection, which could be used to Connect Kelsier's CS to the PR. I do not think aluminum would have this ability.

Yes, but a Kandra Blessing is slightly different, isn't it?  It isn't just a hemalurgic spike, it's it's own thing.  You can't just give a random hemalurgic spike to a Mistwraith and make a Kandra, it has to be specific. 

I'm not saying that they spike Kel and stole his identity or Connection, I'm saying that they somehow feruchemically STORED Kel in an Aluminum Spike.  Or at least, his Identity.  Which...is potentially all he is, as a Cognative Shadow.  Identity without Connection.  So if they Feruchemically stored him in an Aluminum Spike, then prepared that Spike as a Kandra Blessing, it would, potentially, grant the Mistwraith sentience, but HIS sentience.  His mind, in the Mistwraith's body.  Which could be why he can't use Allomancy.  Kandra can't use Allomancy.  It's a hack, to get him back to the physical realm.  But it isn't a good hack.  Just the only one he's been able to learn.  

Though, i suppose they did confirm the spike in his eye is Steel, and it is keeping him attached to his body.  

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11 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Yes, but a Kandra Blessing is slightly different, isn't it?  It isn't just a hemalurgic spike, it's it's own thing.  You can't just give a random hemalurgic spike to a Mistwraith and make a Kandra, it has to be specific. 

I'm not saying that they spike Kel and stole his identity or Connection, I'm saying that they somehow feruchemically STORED Kel in an Aluminum Spike.  Or at least, his Identity.  Which...is potentially all he is, as a Cognative Shadow.  Identity without Connection.  So if they Feruchemically stored him in an Aluminum Spike, then prepared that Spike as a Kandra Blessing, it would, potentially, grant the Mistwraith sentience, but HIS sentience.  His mind, in the Mistwraith's body.  Which could be why he can't use Allomancy.  Kandra can't use Allomancy.  It's a hack, to get him back to the physical realm.  But it isn't a good hack.  Just the only one he's been able to learn.  

Though, i suppose they did confirm the spike in his eye is Steel, and it is keeping him attached to his body.  

A Kandra blessing just contorts the soul in a way that allows them to access their cognitive aspect, that wouldn't help Kelsier who needs a Connection to the PR.

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16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A Kandra blessing just contorts the soul in a way that allows them to access their cognitive aspect, that wouldn't help Kelsier who needs a Connection to the PR.

You gotta reference on that?  And also, we know you can use a hemalurgic spike to store feruchemical aspects.  Couldn't you make an aluminum kandra blessing and then store some identity in it?  Don't you think that would have consequences?

Edited by Tglassy
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32 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

You gotta reference on that? 

More implications than direct statements, but yes.

Spoiler

NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

Zas

Why do Kandra need two spikes to have a blessing and to become sentient?

Brandon Sanderson

It is just the nature of how Hemalurgy works. More spikes are capable of changing form and body more, and I didn’t feel that one spike was viable for the alterations that are made to their nature.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/233/#e6895

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3895

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

 And also, we know you can use a hemalurgic spike to store feruchemical aspects.  Couldn't you make an aluminum kandra blessing and then store some identity in it?  Don't you think that would have consequences?

Possible, depending on whether or not aluminum actually stores identity rather than just allowing you to blank it.

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On 18.11.2022 at 6:42 PM, CarTorSan said:

Aluminum, according to the chart in TLM Ars Arcanum, has the Feruchemical power to store Identity. Also, as a Hemalurgic spike, it has the power to remove all powers. Hence, the core of my theory is that he used some kind of Aluminum medallion to store his Identity there (though I don't know if a cognitive shadow can access medallions, or if there's a WoB explaining it), then got someone to move it to the Physical Realm and stab his body with it, we don't know where. BUT, as he was Mistborn, the aluminum spike removed all his former powers and, potentially, his ability to use his steel one to touch metals around him.

That would also could explain why Lerasium wouldn't work on him, as Sazed says, since the aluminum spike would automatically wipe out the new powers Lerasium brought.

I might not fully understand this fully, but I think there is a problem. He stores his identyty in aluminum as a CS in CR, giving it feruchemical charge, but it doesn't have hemalurgic charge. They stab his body with it, but it's not hemalurgic spike yet, and his body is NOT attach to a soul, so there isn't any piece of soul left that can be stolen and made into hemalurgic charge. And his body is just pile of bones, and blood is necessary for hemalurgy. Hemalurgy can't work on his body in his dead/only bones state.

And can't prevent from gaining new powers - having aluminum spike in you, won't stop you from gaining power from Lerasium. Onced spiked, it won't prevent you from acquiring new powers.

Also, aluminum steals all powers, but does it count allomancy, as there is 4 metals for it already, or is it only for non-allomantic, and non-feruchemical powers? You can only steal one power with one spike, and that's one of the allomanic powers, not all of them - if aluminum could steal all alomantic powers at once, you would think inqisitors would use it all the times to steal from Mistborn everything, yet despite knowing this metal, they didn't do it.

On 29.12.2022 at 2:00 AM, Tglassy said:

I'm not saying that they spike Kel and stole his identity or Connection, I'm saying that they somehow feruchemically STORED Kel in an Aluminum Spike.  Or at least, his Identity.  Which...is potentially all he is, as a Cognative Shadow.  Identity without Connection.  So if they Feruchemically stored him in an Aluminum Spike, then prepared that Spike as a Kandra Blessing, it would, potentially, grant the Mistwraith sentience, but HIS sentience.  His mind, in the Mistwraith's body.  Which could be why he can't use Allomancy.  Kandra can't use Allomancy.  It's a hack, to get him back to the physical realm.  But it isn't a good hack.  Just the only one he's been able to learn.  

Though, i suppose they did confirm the spike in his eye is Steel, and it is keeping him attached to his body.  

That sounds good, if that's how Kandra spikes are made, Lord Ruler could make them with his compounding. But steel spike is confirmed, so it is a problem for any additional aluminum spike theory. With your explanation he wouldn't need steel spike.

 

I think that they use mistwraith and gave it his bones, then Kelsier as a CS stood where mistwraith is but in CR and someone in PR with right intent stab mistwraith with a spike, through Kel's CS, spiking it to a mistwraith - like nailing piece of paper to a tree. The reason why Kel can't use allomancy anymore, is that the spike is the only connection he has with this body, and that body is mistwraith's body, not his, and it is not connected to allomancy at all. 

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Aluminum’s effect isn’t steal all powers (as a counterpart to Lerasium), but Removes all powers. Hemilurgically charged aluminum prevents mistings from burning metals and feedings from filling/tapping metal minds. Presumably, this applies to other world’s powers, hemalurgically granted powers, etc. Hemalurgically charged Aluminum is a weapon, and charging it might actually make someone more powerful.

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24 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Aluminum’s effect isn’t steal all powers (as a counterpart to Lerasium), but Removes all powers. Hemilurgically charged aluminum prevents mistings from burning metals and feedings from filling/tapping metal minds. Presumably, this applies to other world’s powers, hemalurgically granted powers, etc. Hemalurgically charged Aluminum is a weapon, and charging it might actually make someone more powerful.

So a simple aluminum piece of metal, with no hemalurgic charge, put into someone, would prevent them from using all of their powers at once? Or spiking someone removes their powers but grants a spike its hemalurgic charge? Aluminum spike doen't steel the power and stores it in the spike, it removes it with no possibility to transfer it further? There is little to no information or WoBs about it, so I'm not grasping it fully yet. 

Still, you need blood for hemalurgy to work, and Kelsier's bones don't have even a single drop of it left. They also don't have any soul attached to it. Hemalurgy won't work on a pile of bones. Cool idea though.

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I agree that they couldn’t have charged it off kelsier’s bones, and I doubt they were able to find a bind point on his bones, but it would be a simple forgery for the body to have been preserved, then spike it. However, I don’t actually believe this.

My whole point is that you have aluminum wrong. We don’t know what happens to the one(s) who charge an aluminum spike, but it is likely very similar to a necrosil spike. However, it bestows the inability to use powers. In other words, it removes the powers. If an aluminum spike was used, then any Aloha tic powers he had couldn’t be accessed.

Aluminum is an offensive hemilurgic spike.

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2 hours ago, alder24 said:

So a simple aluminum piece of metal, with no hemalurgic charge, put into someone, would prevent them from using all of their powers at once? Or spiking someone removes their powers but grants a spike its hemalurgic charge? Aluminum spike doen't steel the power and stores it in the spike, it removes it with no possibility to transfer it further? There is little to no information or WoBs about it, so I'm not grasping it fully yet. 

You'd have to have the right intent and know where to stab it, but yeah, just like you have to have the right intent for a piece of Iron to become a Hemalurgic Spike.  Stab a Radiant with a large enough piece of aluminum and they are no longer radiant.  Stab an Awakener and their breaths are removed, or at the very least their ability to utilize them.  I don't think it would even have a charge.  It would be like burning Aluminum, only permanently.  You are blanked.  No investiture.  It would be a great punishment, and a greater weapon against any enemy using Investiture.  

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3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

You'd have to have the right intent and know where to stab it, but yeah, just like you have to have the right intent for a piece of Iron to become a Hemalurgic Spike.  Stab a Radiant with a large enough piece of aluminum and they are no longer radiant.  Stab an Awakener and their breaths are removed, or at the very least their ability to utilize them.  I don't think it would even have a charge.  It would be like burning Aluminum, only permanently.  You are blanked.  No investiture.  It would be a great punishment, and a greater weapon against any enemy using Investiture.  

I tend to agree with @IlstrawberrySeed on the function of an aluminum hemalurgic spike- you have to stab (and likely kill) someone to make the aluminum spike become hemalurgically charged. And THEN, you can stab someone with that spike to remove their powers. If you had an uncharged lerasium spike and stabbed someone with the right intent and in the right place (again, likely killing them), it would steal their powers (becoming hemalurgically charged) and you could then stab someone else or yourself to transfer those powers.

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I guess I did forget that part, but...that doesn't actually make sense, does it?  What, exactly, are you stealing from the original person?  

So, a normal hemalurgic spike steals something from someone by killing them and then gives it to someone else.  Strength.  Mental Accuity.  Specific powers.  Whatever.  But an Aluminum spike doesn't do that.  It just removes all your powers.  There's nothing to steal.  So, no, I think I'm going to stick with my original thought.  I don't think Aluminum needs a charge.  It's thing is blocking Investiture.  I think you can stab someone with Aluminum in the right way with the right intent, leaving it in the person, and it won't kill them.  It'll just remove all their abilities.  Permanent Investiture Blanking.  

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I think I get it now, thanks. Both explanations seems plausible. If you need to charge it first, I think the very contact with blood of a first victim and right intent charges the spike, and allows it later to remove all powers from a second victim. But that's If. With the description of aluminum spike i tend to agree with @Tglassy and it doesn't need the charge. Yet that's weird, every spike need to be charge first for it to work. But that's aluminum, it's a weird metal.

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I personally believe that someone who charges an aluminum spike gains power, as it steals the inability to do something, but it doesn’t mark a lot of sense.

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