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Vin(Diesel)

Could harmonium make you a feruchemist?

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If eating lerasium makes you a mistborn, could eating harmonium make you a feruchemist?

Allomancy is considered to be of Preservation, since it is an end-positive art. Feruchemy is of Harmony, since it is an end-neutral art. Therefore, it makes sense that Preservation's metal, lerasium, makes people allomancers, and it makes sense that Harmonium would make people feruchemists. Of course, on this logic, it would seem that consuming atium should make you a hemalurgist, which it doesn't. But I don't think that proves me wrong, because hemalurgy isn't a biological part of anyone, whereas allomancy and feruchemy are. 

 

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Well, ingesting harmonium obviously cannot be the origin of Feruchemy, the way that eating lerasium was the origin of full Mistborn on Scadrial (not counting Rashek's unique opportunity to do a "binary edit" on himself while Ascended). Harmony didn't exist yet!

And as has been discussed in similar threads on this forum, ingesting harmonium has another obvious problem: it explodes violently on contact with water. Which includes most of what a human body is made of, including blood, saliva, etc.

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36 minutes ago, robardin said:

And as has been discussed in similar threads on this forum, ingesting harmonium has another obvious problem: it explodes violently on contact with water. Which includes most of what a human body is made of, including blood, saliva, etc.

So... bloodmakers, pewterarms, and (most of all) gold compounders like Miles Hundredlives might be able to eat Harmonium and survive. Though even they might have difficulty digesting the stuff.

Wonder if Wax and Steris might have a kid with any of those three powers. Or maybe a grandkid or great-grandkid, since Era 3 is planned to be set 50-70 years after era 2. Fun stuff. 

Brandon really did a very good job with Scadrian magic systems. Era 1 magic dovetailed so well with the setting, with all the flying through the mists, the ballroom allomancer intrigue, and the dystopian dark lord using creepy hemalurgists enforcers. Era 2 magic let us nerd out about twinborn possibilities, and gave us a chance to think about things each ferring could do, as well. We didn't get a chance to see ferrings in Era 1.

I suspect Era 3 will let us nerd out similarly, with some extra stuff thrown in - perhaps an occasional full mistborn, maybe a full mistborn who's also a ferring, unkeyed metalminds, space age interplanetary Investiture trading (and interplanetary Investiture combining), and maybe, like I said, a full feruchemist because of harmonium, even a full feruchemist twinborn. 

Good times ahead.

And good points, robardin.

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One thing that feels weird is needing to burn a metal to gain Feruchemist powers.

Another important thing is that the South has had access to Ettmetal for quite a while now, and Kelsier, who is trying to make the metallic arts more freely available, has been hanging out there a lot as well. I suspect that if Harmonium can be used for granting Feruchemy, Kelsier and the south would have already found it, and likely used it.

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1 hour ago, kenod said:

One thing that feels weird is needing to burn a metal to gain Feruchemist powers.

Another important thing is that the South has had access to Ettmetal for quite a while now, and Kelsier, who is trying to make the metallic arts more freely available, has been hanging out there a lot as well. I suspect that if Harmonium can be used for granting Feruchemy, Kelsier and the south would have already found it, and likely used it.

Unless he never discovered it.

There is a metalmind that anyone can store any attribute in, which I believe to be Harmonium. The reason no one knows about it is that Harmonium is impossible to safely hold. 

Quote

Argent

Lerasium grants all Allomantic powers when burned. Atium, when used as a spike, can steal any power. Is there a way to create a metalmind that can store anything?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a way to create a metalmind that can store anything.

Argent

Harmonium?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m not saying; I gave you an answer…

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6351

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/17/2022 at 4:51 PM, Frustration said:

Unless he never discovered it.

There is a metalmind that anyone can store any attribute in, which I believe to be Harmonium. The reason no one knows about it is that Harmonium is impossible to safely hold. 

 

Could be lerasium itself. We don't know what it does as a metalmind.

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5 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Could be lerasium itself. We don't know what it does as a metalmind.

Feruchemy isn't of Preservation, so why would that be the case?

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9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Feruchemy isn't of Preservation, so why would that be the case?

It allomantically grants use of all the metals, not much of a stretch to think that it's metal could be feruchemically used for all the traits. And Feruchemy is of Preservation, at least  in part.

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1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

It allomantically grants use of all the metals, not much of a stretch to think that it's metal could be feruchemically used for all the traits. And Feruchemy is of Preservation, at least  in part.

Yet Atium when used as a spike can steal anything, but Lerasium cannot. So under that model Harmonium makes far more sense for the store anything metal.

Edited by Frustration
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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yet Atium when used as a spike can steal anything, but Lerasium cannot. So under that model Harmonium makes far more sense for the store anything metal.

Check the Hemalurgic table again. Atium steals any one specific ability; Lerasium steals all abilities. 

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4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Check the Hemalurgic table again. Atium steals any one specific ability; Lerasium steals all abilities. 

Lad I'm too advanced for that table.

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5971

 

 

Atium can steal anything.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Lad I'm too advanced for that table.

  Hide contents

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5971

 

 

Atium can steal anything.

None of this contradicts the table or what I said, so like I said check it again. The table is from the leatherbound HoA, much more recent than your WOB. Atium can act like any one spike. Lerasium can act like all the spikes at once. ANY is different from ALL.

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25 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

None of this contradicts the table or what I said, so like I said check it again. The table is from the leatherbound HoA, much more recent than your WOB. Atium can act like any one spike. Lerasium can act like all the spikes at once. ANY is different from ALL.

The table is an in universe creation as stated here:

Quote

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.)

Brandon knows more than anyone in world.

And no Lerasium does not steal everything only the strength/emotional fortitude/mental fortitude etc things that aren't powers

Spoiler

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14896

 

Edited by Frustration
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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And no Lerasium does not steal everything only the strength/emotional fortitude/mental fortitude etc things that aren't power

 

Fair enough but so? Lerasium still has an element of "all" in both Allomancy and Hemalurgy; it follows that it would also have an element of "all" of something in Feruchemy.

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3 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Fair enough but so? Lerasium still has an element of "all" in both Allomancy and Hemalurgy; it follows that it would also have an element of "all" of something in Feruchemy.

We don't even know what Pure Atium does in Allomancy and Feruchemy, but here's what we do know.

Lerasium let's anyone burn any metal allomantically

Atium let's anyone steal anything Hemalurgically.

Therefore Harmonium should let anyone store anything feruchmically.

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Could be that Harmonium can act as any one metalmind at a time while Lerasium can act as all at the same time.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Therefore Harmonium should let anyone store anything feruchmically.

 

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Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

Could be that Harmonium can act as any one metalmind at a time while Lerasium can act as all at the same time.

 

Why on earth would that be the case?

Lerasium is the best allomantic metal.

Atium is the best Hemalurgic metal.

Why would Lerasium also be the best feruchemic metal?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Why on earth would that be the case?

Lerasium is the best allomantic metal.

Atium is the best Hemalurgic metal.

Why would Lerasium also be the best feruchemic metal?

I wouldn't say Atium is the best hemalurgic metal; I think all abilities is better than any one specific power. And again the case is that Lerasium has an aspect of "all" in two of the Metallic Arts so an aspect of "all" in Feruchemy is a reasonable assumption. 

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1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I wouldn't say Atium is the best hemalurgic metal; I think all abilities is better than any one specific power. And again the case is that Lerasium has an aspect of "all" in two of the Metallic Arts so an aspect of "all" in Feruchemy is a reasonable assumption. 

I would rather have magic than be mentally and physically better.

And Atium has all in Hemalurgy and we don't know what it does in Allomancy or Feruchemy.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And Atium has all in Hemalurgy and we don't know what it does in Allomancy or Feruchemy.

Atium has any in Hemalurgy, which again is different from all.

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3 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Atium has any in Hemalurgy, which again is different from all.

Given the process we saw in TLM I'd say any spike could hold multiple charges, perhaps even multiple different ones.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Given the process we saw in TLM I'd say any spike could hold multiple charges, perhaps even multiple different ones.

Maybe but I feel Brandon's wording between any and all is intentional.

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On 11/17/2022 at 0:50 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

If eating lerasium makes you a mistborn, could eating harmonium make you a feruchemist?

Allomancy is considered to be of Preservation, since it is an end-positive art. Feruchemy is of Harmony, since it is an end-neutral art. Therefore, it makes sense that Preservation's metal, lerasium, makes people allomancers, and it makes sense that Harmonium would make people feruchemists. Of course, on this logic, it would seem that consuming atium should make you a hemalurgist, which it doesn't. But I don't think that proves me wrong, because hemalurgy isn't a biological part of anyone, whereas allomancy and feruchemy are. 

 

This could be a way to bring back ferochemy  in the future. 

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