Ettemetal - Trelliumm Explosion questions

[Doonl]

So basically the biggest thing that happens in Lost Metal is that if you do the right things, you can create basically a nuke by touching trellium to Ettemetal. My question is, why? Maybe this is just a thing that we have never seen before being revealed (since we have never seen the electrification of a godmetal before) but that doesnt seem right to me. This is especially true since even just the metals with no added experiments repel eachother. By contrast to that explosion, we have seen many types of investiture mix, or at least be near eachother, before and never seen anything like the effect this had. Voidlight and stormlight dont mix, but they also dont repel eachother, or even really react. We have seen loads of worldhoppers with more than a few different investitures in close proximity. 

 The description we get of the explosion in Wax's lab sounds a lot like the explosion in RoW that happens in the lab where they mix voidlight and anti-voidlight. The two also repel each other in a way very similar to how trellium repels others invested metals. Trellium clearly has some properties that are eerily similar to what we have seen of anti-investuture, and while it seems unlikely that Trellium is anti-investiture, since autonomy is using it, the relationship is too present to just ignore. I would almost be willing to write the whole thing off as the electrification of ettemetal being the key here if it wasnt for the spikes repelling each other.

I also want to just add to the end of this ramble that Autonomy as a whole seems to be working off a set of rules just the tiniest bit different from the other shards. After all, she seems to be leaving bits of herself everywhere, without being weakened, even though we know that shards are weakened by investing stuff. What's more, those avatars seem to be very nearly as powerful as a shard, without any drop in autonomy herself's power.

[Jakobus]

I've got two ideas. 1: Harmony is balanced between two intents, so adding Autonomy to the mix would give a leg up to one or the other. I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say if more Atium or Lerasium was created in the explosion?

2: Ettmetal is Ruin and Preservation. We've seen plenty of examples of 2-shard combos, but have we seen 3? Maybe the attempt to add a third to the mix was too much power without adequate containment?

[Telesphoros]

This might be me being too much of an amateur physicist - but I think it literally is a nuclear explosion, amplified by the power in investiture.

 

1: Harmonium acts like a heavy, possibly transuranic, element. Allik warns Wax not to store too much of it in one place, otherwise "odd things might happen". We know that the Axi of harmonium is likely composed of Lerasium and Atium, given that the reaction produced both. It seems likely to me that harmonium is literally a combination of those two elements, with the Intent+Investiture of Harmony providing the binding force sufficient to overcome their natural repulsion (both of Intent and electromagnetic).

2: We know that Bavadinium strongly repels Harmonium "more like it had the same charge".

3: We know that passing an electric current through Harmonium comes close to, but is not sufficient to separate Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium.

 

So I think what happens is when the current is passed through Harmonium and Bavadinium is brought close, that is sufficient to overcome the binding force of Harmonium - Lerasium and Atium subsequently separate and release energy, just like in nuclear fission. The atoms of Lerasium and Atium which split subsequently collide with other Harmonium atoms with enough energy to split them as well, in the classic chain reaction.

 

It's a very odd combination of physics and magic, and I'm sure the mathematics on it would be incredibly fuzzy, but it matches the description of Wax's experiment.

 

With a more powerful current or something like modern compression implosions they should be able to fission Harmonium even without Bavadinium.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Telesphoros
Added future possibility

[Doonl]

7 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

This might be me being too much of an amateur physicist - but I think it literally is a nuclear explosion, amplified by the power in investiture.

 

1: Harmonium acts like a heavy, possibly transuranic, element. Allik warns Wax not to store too much of it in one place, otherwise "odd things might happen". We know that the Axi of harmonium is likely composed of Lerasium and Atium, given that the reaction produced both. It seems likely to me that harmonium is literally a combination of those two elements, with the Intent+Investiture of Harmony providing the binding force sufficient to overcome their natural repulsion (both of Intent and electromagnetic).

2: We know that Bavadinium strongly repels Harmonium "more like it had the same charge".

3: We know that passing an electric current through Harmonium comes close to, but is not sufficient to separate Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium.

 

So I think what happens is when the current is passed through Harmonium and Bavadinium is brought close, that is sufficient to overcome the binding force of Harmonium - Lerasium and Atium subsequently separate and release energy, just like in nuclear fission. The atoms of Lerasium and Atium which split subsequently collide with other Harmonium atoms with enough energy to split them as well, in the classic chain reaction.

 

It's a very odd combination of physics and magic, and I'm sure the mathematics on it would be incredibly fuzzy, but it matches the description of Wax's experiment.

 

With a more powerful current or something like modern compression implosions they should be able to fission Harmonium even without Bavadinium.

I agree that we are getting something very much like a nuclear explosion, but I disagree a tiny semantic detail that has big implications

 

8 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

2: We know that Bavadinium strongly repels Harmonium "more like it had the same charge".

This is a true statement, but I think they why of it is super important. There is no evidence that different shard's investiture should act in this way. In fact, we have seen the opposite in RoW, where a big deal is made out of Void light and Stormlight not being oppisites. They don't repel each other, they just don't react. So what is different about Bavadinium, or I suppose Ettemetal? The only similar effect we have seen is from anti-light. 

I also think that the reason Ettemetal is so reactive is because Harmony himself is completely unstable. I wouldn't be surprised if Sazed's transformation into Discord completely changes the properties of the metal, or if, should Sazed ever bring the shards into an alignment where they are not in conflict, Ettemetal loses much of its reactivity

[Telesphoros]

11 minutes ago, Doonl said:

This is a true statement, but I think they why of it is super important. There is no evidence that different shard's investiture should act in this way. In fact, we have seen the opposite in RoW, where a big deal is made out of Void light and Stormlight not being oppisites. They don't repel each other, they just don't react. So what is different about Bavadinium, or I suppose Ettemetal? The only similar effect we have seen is from anti-light. 

I also think that the reason Ettemetal is so reactive is because Harmony himself is completely unstable. I wouldn't be surprised if Sazed's transformation into Discord completely changes the properties of the metal, or if, should Sazed ever bring the shards into an alignment where they are not in conflict, Ettemetal loses much of its reactivity

Huh. I thought it was kind of obvious why Bavadinium acts like that, though I fully admit I could be wrong on this. Bavadinium is created by Autonomy, structured by the Intent and purpose of the Shard.

 

Going back to a WoB "Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else." https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9608

 

The reason why it acts like that has nothing (IMO) to do with Autonomy being opposite and everything to do with it wanting to avoid being corrupted/interfered with by any other Shard's investiture. It repels investiture of other Shards in order to remain Autonomous from them.

 

I agree that Ettmetal is unstable as a reflection of Harmony's instability.

 

Edit: Harmony outright says "Autonomy is driven to divide off from the rest of us, to go her own way".

Edited November 17, 2022 by Telesphoros
Added Quote

[Doonl]

I honestly had not considered the point about Autonomy wanting to remain uncorrupted, and its a great one. I just cant get over how similar it behaved to anti-light. I mean repelling other investiture, causing a big explosion when mixed, both almost exactly the same. 

As a note, did we ever find out what happened to the bit of Bavadinium they used in the bomb in Wax's lab? Cause that could matter. Also whatever was different about the experiment Wax did that created Lerasium and Atium.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Doonl
grammar

[Karger]

My best guess is that the explosion is the result of Ruin and Preservation being fully separated and smashed into each other.  The entire process seems somewhat reminiscent of a matter antimatter reaction but IMO it may actually be closer to fusion.

The way I see it the intent of the shard Harmony forces the two intents of Ruin and Preservation to exist in balance with each other.  IE if you split them apart they will try and force themselves back together per their intent.  The thing is(as we know from era 1), they really don't like each other.  Combining them together with force is destructive enough to end a god. 

1 minute ago, Doonl said:

As a note, did we ever find out what happened to the bit of Bavadinium they used in the bomb in Wax's lab? Cause that could matter. Also whatever was different about the experiment Wax did that created Lerasium and Atium.

The only noticeable difference as far as I can tell is that Wax burned metal at the time.

[Doonl]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

My best guess is that the explosion is the result of Ruin and Preservation being fully separated and smashed into each other.  The entire process seems somewhat reminiscent of a matter antimatter reaction but IMO it may actually be closer to fusion.

The way I see it the intent of the shard Harmony forces the two intents of Ruin and Preservation to exist in balance with each other.  IE if you split them apart they will try and force themselves back together per their intent.  The thing is(as we know from era 1), they really don't like each other.  Combining them together with force is destructive enough to end a god. 

The only noticeable difference as far as I can tell is that Wax burned metal at the time.

This makes sense, but only if the Atium and Lerasium are being fully seperated every time. The set was able to create the bomb, but not the separation between the two.

Also, do you have a quote of Wax burning metal at the time, I could not find it

[Karger]

Just now, Doonl said:

This makes sense, but only if the Atium and Lerasium are being fully seperated every time. The set was able to create the bomb, but not the separation between the two.

Before the experiment Wax burns metal and sees how the Trellium reacts(pushing itself away).

1 minute ago, Doonl said:

This makes sense, but only if the Atium and Lerasium are being fully seperated every time. The set was able to create the bomb, but not the separation between the two.

Atium at least is a replaceable byproduct of the reaction.  I touch on it in this theory but basically the only difference might be that the separated investitures are unstable and Wax somehow altered that so the byproducts were a bit more stable.

 

[Doonl]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Before the experiment Wax burns metal and sees how the Trellium reacts(pushing itself away).

Atium at least is a replaceable byproduct of the reaction.  I touch on it in this theory but basically the only difference might be that the separated investitures are unstable and Wax somehow altered that so the byproducts were a bit more stable.

 

Wax burning steel near the Trellium, not even pushing on it, before the experiment even starts, seems unlikely to be the cause. Firstly, its ridiculous to assume the Set never had anyone try to push or pull on Trellium, let alone happen to be burning some metals kinda near one of the bomb experiments. Second, Trellium's reaction to Wax burning steel is identical to how it responds to Ettemetal, or the other spikes, it just is repelled by Harmony's investiture. If Wax burning steel near it caused the difference, the same thing should be caused by being near Ettemetal, which is obviously true of every single experiment with the bombs

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Doonl said:

Wax burning steel near the Trellium, not even pushing on it, before the experiment even starts, seems unlikely to be the cause. Firstly, its ridiculous to assume the Set never had anyone try to push or pull on Trellium, let alone happen to be burning some metals kinda near one of the bomb experiments. Second, Trellium's reaction to Wax burning steel is identical to how it responds to Ettemetal, or the other spikes, it just is repelled by Harmony's investiture. If Wax burning steel near it caused the difference, the same thing should be caused by being near Ettemetal, which is obviously true of every single experiment with the bombs

This is just a guess but maybe its the fact that he didn't try and push or pull?  He just burned.  His personality might have helped as well.  Autonomy likes him after all.  Basically the lack of intent might have made the difference this time since Autonomy's metal would reject anyone trying to impose will over it.

Magnetism and gravity can have the same kind of effect on an object if you look at them under the right conditions.  However only one of those forces will apply a charge to a metal object.  Just because what happens looks similar does not make it the same.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Karger

[Telesphoros]

Some notes on reviewing the chapter - we don't have any of the details on how the Set conducted their experiments, we just know that they did.

The reaction that Wax did was not complete - the bulk of what they found after the explosion was Harmonium, with only residual atium and lerasium, so most of the Harmonium must not have reacted. “Harmonium,” he said as Steris dug out an extra vial of oil for him to put it into. “Plastered across the back of the box. I … think the experiment failed. It didn’t divide.”

 

Additionally, the only reason we have to believe that the Set experiments didn't create Lerasium is because Harmony told Wayne that but

A: Harmony had admitted that his sight was extremely limited

and

B: Harmony outright lied to Kelsier about the creation of Lerasium during Wax's experiment.

So I find that conclusion a little bit suspect.

[Doonl]

4 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

Some notes on reviewing the chapter - we don't have any of the details on how the Set conducted their experiments, we just know that they did.

The reaction that Wax did was not complete - the bulk of what they found after the explosion was Harmonium, with only residual atium and lerasium, so most of the Harmonium must not have reacted. “Harmonium,” he said as Steris dug out an extra vial of oil for him to put it into. “Plastered across the back of the box. I … think the experiment failed. It didn’t divide.”

 

Additionally, the only reason we have to believe that the Set experiments didn't create Lerasium is because Harmony told Wayne that but

A: Harmony had admitted that his sight was extremely limited

and

B: Harmony outright lied to Kelsier about the creation of Lerasium during Wax's experiment.

So I find that conclusion a little bit suspect.

I think its safe to assume the set failed to create Lerasium since we never saw it used, or saw them have a mistborn. If they had had access to that kind of power they would have used it to stop Wax and Wayne. We just saw their big plan. There is no reason they would have saved it. Plus, Harmony has a clear reason to lie to Kelsier, where as Wayne was not only about to die, but also utterly lacking in the kind of desire for power that would make lerasium dangerous. That combined with the fact that he offered Wayne the answer to literally any question indicated he had to reason to lie. 

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is just a guess but maybe its the fact that he didn't try and push or pull?  He just burned.  His personality might have helped as well.  Autonomy likes him after all.  Basically the lack of intent might have made the difference this time since Autonomy's metal would reject anyone trying to impose will over it.

You might be right but I think we are at the point where its complete speculation. Personally I think that if anything this would have required Intent, no lack of it, given basically every single piece of major investiture manipulation requires intent, but you might be right. We probably just need more info

[Telesphoros]

13 minutes ago, Doonl said:

I think its safe to assume the set failed to create Lerasium since we never saw it used, or saw them have a mistborn. If they had had access to that kind of power they would have used it to stop Wax and Wayne. We just saw their big plan. There is no reason they would have saved it. Plus, Harmony has a clear reason to lie to Kelsier, where as Wayne was not only about to die, but also utterly lacking in the kind of desire for power that would make lerasium dangerous. That combined with the fact that he offered Wayne the answer to literally any question indicated he had to reason to lie.

Definitely a strong possibility.

I do think it's possible that the Set created lerasium without realizing it though - we know for certain that the Set must have created atium, both because Marsh is on that trail and because we see it created during Wax's experiment. Despite that, no one in the Set uses atium - even assuming they didn't have any staff on hand who were atium mistings, I would assume that they'd launch a search for someone who was. Even one atium misting could have the ability hemalurgically removed and given to one of their operatives and they'd been experimenting with harmonium for years. It would give them an enormous, possibly unbeatable advantage.

Both lerasium and atium were emitted from Wax's experiment as particles - the atium was only found later, as dust on the floor. Entirely possible that the Set just thought they had a new explosive and didn't bother to test the debris.

 

Another alternative, in line with Karger's hypothesis about Intent, is that the Set was intending to create a weapon and so they did. Wax was intending to create Lerasium and Atium, and so he did.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Telesphoros

[Doonl]

2 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

Definitely a strong possibility.

I do think it's possible that the Set created lerasium without realizing it though - we know for certain that the Set must have created atium, both because Marsh is on that trail and because we see it created during Wax's experiment. Despite that, no one in the Set uses atium - even assuming they didn't have any staff on hand who were atium mistings, I would assume that they'd launch a search for someone who was. Even one atium misting could have the ability hemalurgically removed and given to one of their operatives and they'd been experimenting with harmonium for years.

Both lerasium and atium were emitted from Wax's experiment as particles - the atium was only found later, as dust on the floor. Entirely possible that the Set just thought they had a new explosive and didn't bother to test the debris.

 

Another alternative, in line with Karger's hypothesis about Intent, is that the Set was intending to create a weapon and so they did. Wax was intending to create Lerasium and Atium, and so he did.

We have absolutely no evidence that the Set managed to create atium. They were certainly trying to, but I think they clearly failed. You yourself gave the reasons why we would have seen it used, and as you mentioned, they would have gotten Lerasium as well. However, Marsh being on their trail is not proof that they create atium, only they they were working against the interests of Scadrial. We are also told that the set tried exactly the experient Wax did to try and seperate Ettemetal, but without the same results. Sazed specifically mentions that there was something different about what Wax did, but that he isnt sure what. 

[Telesphoros]

1 minute ago, Doonl said:

We have absolutely no evidence that the Set managed to create atium. They were certainly trying to, but I think they clearly failed. You yourself gave the reasons why we would have seen it used, and as you mentioned, they would have gotten Lerasium as well. However, Marsh being on their trail is not proof that they create atium, only they they were working against the interests of Scadrial. We are also told that the set tried exactly the experient Wax did to try and seperate Ettemetal, but without the same results. Sazed specifically mentions that there was something different about what Wax did, but that he isnt sure what. 

Marsh is explicitly looking for Atium.

Quote

“You were in the city, hunting for atium. Why?” “Because someone here is trying to split harmonium,” he explained. “And create the metal again. Though making lerasium would be far more dangerous…”

 

As far as Harmony's talk with Wayne, he's specifically referring to Lerasium. Atium doesn't even come up in that chapter.

Quote

"Yes, but this one was different. I have no idea what happened, but Wax did something different from everyone else trying this. Because he didn’t merely blow up the room. He created something. Something amazing. Wayne held up the vial, staring at the metal dust settled at the bottom. That, Harmony said, is the faintest bit of lerasium, Wayne."

 

I think there are basically two possibilities

A: Harmony's information was bad - the Set did create both lerasium and atium, but didn't realize they had done so. Given that Harmony spends most of the book completely unaware of what the Set is doing beyond generalities, this doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Even VenDell is shocked by the results of Wax's experiment, suggesting either Harmony didn't tell him similar experiments had already been conducted, or Harmony didn't know.

B: Harmony is correct and Wax did something different. We have no way of knowing what, because we don't know what experiments the Set conducted.

[Doonl]

1 minute ago, Telesphoros said:

Marsh is explicitly looking for Atium.

 

As far as Harmony's talk with Wayne, he's specifically referring to Lerasium. Atium doesn't even come up in that chapter.

 

I think there are basically two possibilities

A: Harmony's information was bad - the Set did create both lerasium and atium, but didn't realize they had done so. Given that Harmony spends most of the book completely unaware of what the Set is doing beyond generalities, this doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Even VenDell is shocked by the results of Wax's experiment, suggesting either Harmony didn't tell him similar experiments had already been conducted, or Harmony didn't know.

B: Harmony is correct and Wax did something different. We have no way of knowing what, because we don't know what experiments the Set conducted.

Marsh looking for atium is not evidence that the set actually succeeded, only that they tried to create it. Also, as both of us have mentioned, it seems supremely unlikely that the set managed to create either atium or lerasium and did not use it. And given they were clearly trying to create it, as from the quote you gave, they clearly did have intent, which invalidates this:

22 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

Another alternative, in line with Karger's hypothesis about Intent, is that the Set was intending to create a weapon and so they did. Wax was intending to create Lerasium and Atium, and so he did.

As for Harmony having bad information, I guess its possible, but he had no reason to front for Wayne, and while its unclear exactly how long he has been blinded for, it seems to be less that the 5-6 years that the Set has been doing experiments with Trellium and Ettemetal for. More than that, his vision is cleared at the end of the book and we still are given no sign that he is worried about the Set having any atium or Lerasium. 

Also, it seems absurd to assume that the set, who are both extremally competent, and careful, just missed the atium they created. They would have scoured each and every experiment unless they were absolutely certain they would not find it, which would have been long after it was bomb tests and not experiments. Further, if they had ever managed to create any at all they would have recreated the exact circumstances of the experiment until they got more, and then made as much as possible.

Unless we want to entertain the idea that the Set did in fact create atium and/or lerasium, and then for some inexplicable reason just never used it during the most crucial operation they ever undertook, and to defeat their most dangerous adversary, Wax, then they cannot have had any. 

[Telesphoros]

19 minutes ago, Doonl said:

Marsh looking for atium is not evidence that the set actually succeeded, only that they tried to create it. Also, as both of us have mentioned, it seems supremely unlikely that the set managed to create either atium or lerasium and did not use it. And given they were clearly trying to create it, as from the quote you gave, they clearly did have intent, which invalidates this:

As for Harmony having bad information, I guess its possible, but he had no reason to front for Wayne, and while its unclear exactly how long he has been blinded for, it seems to be less that the 5-6 years that the Set has been doing experiments with Trellium and Ettemetal for. More than that, his vision is cleared at the end of the book and we still are given no sign that he is worried about the Set having any atium or Lerasium. 

Also, it seems absurd to assume that the set, who are both extremally competent, and careful, just missed the atium they created. They would have scoured each and every experiment unless they were absolutely certain they would not find it, which would have been long after it was bomb tests and not experiments. Further, if they had ever managed to create any at all they would have recreated the exact circumstances of the experiment until they got more, and then made as much as possible.

Unless we want to entertain the idea that the Set did in fact create atium and/or lerasium, and then for some inexplicable reason just never used it during the most crucial operation they ever undertook, and to defeat their most dangerous adversary, Wax, then they cannot have had any. 

You're right, and I just realized why I think the Set created atium - it's because of what Harmony says to Kelsier

Quote

“The kandra found atium dust in Waxillium’s destroyed laboratory,” Sazed said. “It appears that if you detonate harmonium against trellium—or, I suppose bavadinium would be its true name—it creates some small amount of atium as a by-product.” “Lerasium?” Kelsier asked. “I’m sorry. That is all annihilated in the explosion. We’ve tested it several times now.”

What Harmony says here suggests that every time you do the harmonium/trellium reaction that atium and lerasium are created, and the lerasium subsequently destroyed.

At least one part of it is obviously a lie - We know that Lerasium was not destroyed.

But...the section about testing also contradicts what Harmony says earlier.

Quote

Yes, but this one was different. I have no idea what happened, but Wax did something different from everyone else trying this.

If Harmony doesn't know how Wax's experiment was different, how did he test it again?

It suggests, at least to me, that either Harmony was lying about not knowing to Wayne (which I agree, he has no reason to do) or he was lying about having replicated the results (which I'm also not sure why he would do). It's possible that everything he said to Kelsier was a lie, but then why tell him about the reaction at all? If the atium isn't created every time the reaction occurs, then if/when Kelsier tests it, he will discover the lie. If it is, then he should discover lerasium as well.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Telesphoros
Added to speculation on motive

[Doonl]

13 minutes ago, Telesphoros said:

You're right, and I just realized why I think the Set created atium - it's because of what Harmony says to Kelsier

What Harmony says here suggests that every time you do the harmonium/trellium reaction that atium and lerasium are created, and the lerasium subsequently destroyed.

At least one part of it is obviously a lie - We know that Lerasium was not destroyed.

But...the section about testing also contradicts what Harmony says earlier.

If Harmony doesn't know how Wax's experiment was different, how did he test it again?

It suggests, at least to me, that either Harmony was lying about not knowing to Wayne (which I agree, he has no reason to do) or he was lying about having replicated the results (which I'm also not sure why he would do). It's possible that everything he said to Kelsier was a lie, but then why tell him about the reaction at all? Why even talk to him?

He told kelsier because the atium from Wax's experiment was how they stopped Marsh from aging and even if Sazed was cruel enough to not tell Kelsier his brother was no longer dying, which I doubt, Kelsier would have noticed before to long anyway. I assume he is lying about having successfully recreated Wax's test in order to stop kelsier from trying himself.

Alternatively, he could legitimately have succeeded. A decent amount of time has passed between Wayne's death and the conversation between Sazed and Kelsier, so while I doubt it, Sazed could have just fully succeeded in the experiment and we are not told.

[Telesphoros]

Makes sense.

I'm not sure it'll work, Kelsier might try to replicate the experiment anyways, but it makes sense as a motive for Harmony.

[The Stormuncle]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:02 PM, Jakobus said:

I've got two ideas. 1: Harmony is balanced between two intents, so adding Autonomy to the mix would give a leg up to one or the other. I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say if more Atium or Lerasium was created in the explosion?

2: Ettmetal is Ruin and Preservation. We've seen plenty of examples of 2-shard combos, but have we seen 3? Maybe the attempt to add a third to the mix was too much power without adequate containment?

I think this is relevant to Discord's emergence. Less Lerasium was left over after the explosion. I am interested in the metaphysical implications the chemical reactions of the metals. Perhaps it's reading to much into it, but I view it as an "as below, so above" situation. I think it the interactions of the shards could happen the same way. Autonomy injected a bit of itself into the Scadrial system which blinded Harmony. I think that clearing that Autonomy cloud would have had a similar reaction for the shards. Autoomy could have Caused Ruin, and Preservation to A) become more independent, and B) destroyed Lerasium/Preservation at a higher ratio than Atium/Ruin. I think it plausibly describes how Ruin gained influence over Preservation to the point that Harmony flips to Discord.

On 11/16/2022 at 4:40 PM, Telesphoros said:

This might be me being too much of an amateur physicist - but I think it literally is a nuclear explosion, amplified by the power in investiture.

Agreed. God Metals are elements rather than alloys to my understanding. So to split one into two others would literally be the splitting of an atom. Well known to be be the trigger for nuclear weapons. The power output, and description implies this as well. Which makes sense as Investiture is described as being the same thing as matter, and energy. Investiture "nuclear" explosions do seem cleaner without deadly radiation though. There were no descriptions of radiation sickness.

[morcey2]

I'm kind of new to all this Cosmere speculation, but I had on thought that seems to follow from this discussion.  (I do lots of speculation in real life, mostly about why my C++ code isn't working or, more surprisingly, why it is working. )

If the Set were testing these Ettmetal + Trellium bombs under Bilming, would that have created small deposits of Atium and Lerasium with each of the explosions.  I don't have the physical book but listened to it on Audible so it's not quite as easy to go back to "re-read" something.  I'll probably pick up the dead-tree version soon.  It doesn't seem like the amount of Atium that Wax generated with his explosion would be enough to sustain Marsh for very long.  Maybe Marsh (or some assortment of Kandra) was in Bilming collecting/finding this residue? 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:35 AM, Doonl said:

I just cant get over how similar it behaved to anti-light. I mean repelling other investiture,

But when does anti light repel other investiture?

[Doonl]

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But when does anti light repel other investiture?

So I could just be remembering wrong, but in RoW doesnt Navani do some experiment where two different lights repel each other. I think it was anti-light and its counterpart, since the fact that stormlight and voidlight dont react is a big deal in that book, but I dont have the book on me so I cant be sure

8 hours ago, morcey2 said:

I'm kind of new to all this Cosmere speculation, but I had on thought that seems to follow from this discussion.  (I do lots of speculation in real life, mostly about why my C++ code isn't working or, more surprisingly, why it is working. )

If the Set were testing these Ettmetal + Trellium bombs under Bilming, would that have created small deposits of Atium and Lerasium with each of the explosions.  I don't have the physical book but listened to it on Audible so it's not quite as easy to go back to "re-read" something.  I'll probably pick up the dead-tree version soon.  It doesn't seem like the amount of Atium that Wax generated with his explosion would be enough to sustain Marsh for very long.  Maybe Marsh (or some assortment of Kandra) was in Bilming collecting/finding this residue? 

This has already been mentioned, and I still think it is not at all plausable that the set managed to produce atium and Lerasium, which we know they were trying to do, and either just didnt realize they succeeded, or never used it. Also more atium was created than lerasium, and given there was enough Lerasium to make Wayne a full mistborn and Wax is at the least kinda mistborn (its unclear exactly how powerful he is now) there would be enough Atium to keep marsh going for a while. 

On 11/21/2022 at 9:41 AM, The Stormuncle said:

I think this is relevant to Discord's emergence. Less Lerasium was left over after the explosion. I am interested in the metaphysical implications the chemical reactions of the metals. Perhaps it's reading to much into it, but I view it as an "as below, so above" situation. I think it the interactions of the shards could happen the same way. Autonomy injected a bit of itself into the Scadrial system which blinded Harmony. I think that clearing that Autonomy cloud would have had a similar reaction for the shards. Autoomy could have Caused Ruin, and Preservation to A) become more independent, and B) destroyed Lerasium/Preservation at a higher ratio than Atium/Ruin. I think it plausibly describes how Ruin gained influence over Preservation to the point that Harmony flips to Discord.

I actually love that idea that Autonomy made Ruin and Preservation more independet, it makes a lot of sense, especially since there is a question of whether Sazed is already discord at the end of the book. For making Ruin gain influence, 1) Ruin has always been more powerful since Preservation is more invested into humans, and we see this in BoM where Sazed is using the extra Ruin power to hold back trell. 

On 11/21/2022 at 9:41 AM, The Stormuncle said:

Agreed. God Metals are elements rather than alloys to my understanding. So to split one into two others would literally be the splitting of an atom. Well known to be be the trigger for nuclear weapons. The power output, and description implies this as well. Which makes sense as Investiture is described as being the same thing as matter, and energy. Investiture "nuclear" explosions do seem cleaner without deadly radiation though. There were no descriptions of radiation sickness.

So I agree that we are getting something that is at least very very close to a nuclear explosion. However, I think there is a question of exactly how similar. God metals are elements, but also Ettemetal split into Atium and Lerasium, which implies an alloy. Here is where I acknowledge that god metals behave like elements but also are weird magic rock and dont exactly follow physics so maybe this is wrong, but what it specifically Ettemetal is an alloy and not an element. We and everyone in the cosmere have always perceived Harmony as one vessel holding two shards, as opposed to one vessel holding one big shard. Perception is important in the cosmere, it shapes the spiritual realm. As such, what if Sazed holding two shards changes the perception enough that Ettemetal does behave like an Alloy in that it is made up of atoms of Lerasium and Atium. 

If this is the case I dont have an explanation for why it explodes when split, but it is at least an explanation as to how an element is made up of two other elements

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Doonl said:

So I could just be remembering wrong, but in RoW doesnt Navani do some experiment where two different lights repel each other. I think it was anti-light and its counterpart, since the fact that stormlight and voidlight dont react is a big deal in that book, but I dont have the book on me so I cant be sure

No, anti-tones can push light out of spheres, but anti-light doesn't resist being mixed.