Thoughts on Compounding metals (Alloy of Law spoilers)

[DariusJenai]

This is one thing that bugged me about Miles.

I thought that this was the manner in which it worked, but when Miles used his Augery, it was written as if he hardly ever used it.

This makes me think that either he wasn't actually burning his goldminds, or burning a metalmind overrides any allomantic effect of burning a metal in favor of activating the feruchemical effect at an amplified degree.

That bugged me too. Especially since there's the one part where it specifically talks about him viewing his alternate selves by burning gold. But it also said he needed a constant supply of gold to stay immortal, so obviously he was burning it. I finally came to the conclusion that burning a feruchemical storage must change the effects of that metal to release its feruchemical property instead of its allomantical ability.

By re-reading the fight between Vin and TLR, it seems that he is burning his atium to stay young, but he doesn't seem to have the precognition normally granted by atium. Thoughts, opinions?

[Cuaiir]

Don't have my copy of TFE with me for reference, but I think when Vin tried to burn one of Sazed's metalminds, she Allomantically sensed another reserve of power that she couldn't touch, though she could burn the metalmind just fine.

So, mini-theory here: For a Compounder, their metal gives them two Allomantic reserves, one with the metal's normal Allomantic effect and another that burns the Feruchemical storage, releasing and amplifying it so they can store it in other metalminds. So a Mistborn Keeper (TLR) would really have access to 32 Allomantic reserves, two per metal (38 including lerasium, atium, and malatium).

[None70]

Don't have my copy of TFE with me for reference, but I think when Vin tried to burn one of Sazed's metalminds, she Allomantically sensed another reserve of power that she couldn't touch, though she could burn the metalmind just fine.

So, mini-theory here: For a Compounder, their metal gives them two Allomantic reserves, one with the metal's normal Allomantic effect and another that burns the Feruchemical storage, releasing and amplifying it so they can store it in other metalminds. So a Mistborn Keeper (TLR) would really have access to 32 Allomantic reserves, two per metal (38 including lerasium, atium, and malatium).

There could be 2 reasons why she could not use the second source of power

1-she was not a feruchemist

2-she was not the person who stored the power. I am pretty sure Sazed said something on the line "because is not yours to use "

I have a theory that metal minds are not interchangeable and 2 archivist would not be able to check each other memories and a brute could not just give a full metal mind to a thug to burn or even to a double pewter user to compound.

I don't think that a compounded metal could not be used for his allomantic power since the example of Vin with Sazed Metalmind state clearly that she could use the pewter normally

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I think Cuaiir's got it. Brandon has described burning a Feruchemical storage (I think in annotations) as creating a new allomantic metal.

[CrazyRioter]

I have a theory that metal minds are not interchangeable and 2 archivist would not be able to check each other memories and a brute could not just give a full metal mind to a thug to burn or even to a double pewter user to compound.

it's explicitly stated that only the feruchemist that stored an attribute can tap it and that appears to hold true with an allomancer trying to get the power by burning the storage.

Also, TLR was most likely drawing from his atium bracers to stay young and not burning atium at that particular time.

[Kurkistan]

There could be 2 reasons why she could not use the second source of power

1-she was not a feruchemist

2-she was not the person who stored the power. I am pretty sure Sazed said something on the line "because is not yours to use "

I have a theory that metal minds are not interchangeable and 2 archivist would not be able to check each other memories and a brute could not just give a full metal mind to a thug to burn or even to a double pewter user to compound.

I don't think that a compounded metal could not be used for his allomantic power since the example of Vin with Sazed Metalmind state clearly that she could use the pewter normally

2 is pretty clearly true. Sazed says that he has the same perception whenever he tries to access another Feruchemist's metalmind.

I think the point on compounded metals was more that you can only access one aspect of its power at a time. This would explain why Miles wasn't forced to constantly engage gold's Allomantic power in order to compound it's Feruchemical charge.

EDIT: And that's why you don't leave a tab open for a few minutes and then reply without refreshing.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Soother]

I would imagine Iron Compounding, unless done VERY carefully would lead to many dead Iron Compounders. Imagine one burning their metalmind, increasing their weight tremendously while pulling on the support structure of a building, train, or any other REALLY FRICKIN large metal object. Because of the burning metalmind, he would likely be massive enough to pull whatever it was towards him (and likely at great speed), but at the same time, he would need to be very well protected or he might crush himself. On the other hand, with a sufficiently large pair of masses (read well-build skyscrapers) one could potentially use the great amount of force by pulling on the masses to rocket ones self at great speed into the air, as long as momentum, and not velocity is conserved in flight.

[Kurkistan]

I would imagine Iron Compounding, unless done VERY carefully would lead to many dead Iron Compounders. Imagine one burning their metalmind, increasing their weight tremendously while pulling on the support structure of a building, train, or any other REALLY FRICKIN large metal object. Because of the burning metalmind, he would likely be massive enough to pull whatever it was towards him (and likely at great speed), but at the same time, he would need to be very well protected or he might crush himself. On the other hand, with a sufficiently large pair of masses (read well-build skyscrapers) one could potentially use the great amount of force by pulling on the masses to rocket ones self at great speed into the air, as long as momentum, and not velocity is conserved in flight.

One doesn't actually need to Push or Pull on anything while burning Steel/Iron. The act of burning allows Allomancers to see sources of metal in relation to themselves, with a further act of will (and perhaps a larger amount of metal used) actually causing an object to be Pushed or Pulled.

A Double Iron Twinborn could thus just burn his iron in the "passive" state while compounding, although all of your points apply when he employs his massive mass, if you'll forgive the pun. Your theory also assumes that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers of a single sample of metal can/must be burned simultaneously, which is still under some discussion.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Soother]

Your theory also assumes that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers of a single sample of metal can be burned simultaneously, which is still under some discussion.

I was pretty sure when you burned a metalmind, a byproduct of tapping it for allomancy was the release of the compounded power. Even if not, they could burn a separate source of metal for the pull. There were numerous times where characters were seen burning multiple sources of metal simultaneously, eg. Duralumin + another metal.

And during the scene where Wax destroyed the building by tapping his metalmind while burning steel, we see both abilities used simultaneously

So I cannot imagine that the possibility would be out of the question, either using the metalmind for both Metal Arts, or burning a separate piece of iron.

[Kurkistan]

I was pretty sure when you burned a metalmind, a byproduct of tapping it for allomancy was the release of the compounded power. Even if not, they could burn a separate source of metal for the pull. There were numerous times where characters were seen burning multiple sources of metal simultaneously, eg. Duralumin + another metal.

And during the scene where Wax destroyed the building by tapping his metalmind while burning steel, we see both abilities used simultaneously

So I cannot imagine that the possibility would be out of the question, either using the metalmind for both Metal Arts, or burning a separate piece of iron.

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, which is entirely my fault.

What I mean to say is that the release of compounded power is not simply a byproduct of tapping a metal for Allomancy. It is my opinion, backed up by the rareness of Mile's employing his Auger abilities despite tapping Health continuously, that a Twinborn can choose to access only the Feruchemical energy stored in a metalmind when burning it using Allomancy.

I also believe that these two functions are exclusive, and that a Twinborn must choose which power to access, the Allomantic power of the metal or the Compounded Feruchemical power, when he burns a metalmind, although this is somewhat less well-backed by evidence from the books.

I see no problem with using Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities simultaneously, only with the necessity/possibility of accessing the Allomantic properties of a metalmind while also utilizing it to Compound Feruchemical power.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Slightly off topic, but I asked Brandon what happens when you Compound copper, and he RAFO'd me. Frustrating, but also interesting. I think he intends to use this later.

[Satsuoni]

Slightly off topic, but I asked Brandon what happens when you Compound copper, and he RAFO'd me. Frustrating, but also interesting. I think he intends to use this later.

I think it will result in perfect recall. You will have enough memories to store in other metalmind, and leave some -with higher clarity even than it was when made - in your head, so you'll be able to read books you flipped through, possibly draw with photographic precision, etc. Also, you'll be able to choose which memory to keep normal, which keep forever, and which drop into coppermind and destroy (by getting rid of metalmind)

By the way, on Nicrosil -pure speculation here, but if Investiture works as I think it does, he will be able to compound his burning nicrosil So he'll only have to use very small amounts of metal for replenishing , and never use it for actual Nicroburst Also he'll be able to store his ability to store nicrosil, which is weird.

The only possible use for such power as I can see is releasing a superburst of Nicrosil power, that will put Duralumin-powered Nicrosil to shame. Maybe then instead of touching an Allomancer he'll be even able to project a small bubble around himself, bursting all the Allomantic reserves of people nearby with double the power!

But much, much more useful for full Mistborn (Atium Investiture Compounding.. Yum!)

[Cuaiir]

Slightly off topic, but I asked Brandon what happens when you Compound copper, and he RAFO'd me. Frustrating, but also interesting. I think he intends to use this later.

I was wondering about this too. My personal theory is that it would give your stored memories a kind of super-clarity. From Well we know that visual memories don't store as well as verbal, which is why Sazed talked to himself while storing up memories of the Convetical of Seran (spelling issues). BUT, we don't have any information about memories gained in other ways, like sensation or emotion. Let's assume they don't store well, however.

So, with the super-clarity of Compounded copper, perhaps Double Copper Twinborns gain a kind of holographic memory, where they can actually access their old memories and walk around in them, using all the information that was barely stored earlier. It acts like Allomantic tin, but only for the memories they've stored. If anyone's seen Kyle XY, that was basically what I was thinking. If not, I may not have explained this very well.

[Wispsy]

err im wondering tho, the metal gets consumed as its burnt and your took the memories from your head and put them in the metal, you then burn the metal with your memories....they were already super clear anyway right, thats the whole point of a coppermind, im not sure how they could become clearer then before they were put in the coppermind. so then ye you either must relive the memories u put in there in some immersive way or just remember them forever after burning it?

[Satsuoni]

err im wondering tho, the metal gets consumed as its burnt and your took the memories from your head and put them in the metal, you then burn the metal with your memories....they were already super clear anyway right, thats the whole point of a coppermind, im not sure how they could become clearer then before they were put in the coppermind. so then ye you either must relive the memories u put in there in some immersive way or just remember them forever after burning it?

When you put memories into coppermind, they are erased from your head. When you draw them normally from coppermind, you recall them perfectly, but, as is human nature, start to forget them, some faster, some slower. So each time you use your memories, they get muddled a little.

But if you burn the coppermind, and then draw memories, you get more memories than you have put into coppermind, and you can continue to draw them as long as it burns (I think), so you can store them in separate coppermind and also, at the same time, remember them more vividly than when you've put them into storage, maybe at the level of actually reliving them. AT least that is my opinion.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree, I think it would essentially allow you to recall those memories with photographic clarity and maybe notice stuff that happened that you didn't notice before. Would be very useful for a detective. Brandon plans to have an allomancer/Feruchemist SWAT team in the second trilogy, maybe there will be a copper compounder in there.

edit: lol grammarfail

Edited November 12, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[darniil]

So, with the super-clarity of Compounded copper, perhaps Double Copper Twinborns gain a kind of holographic memory, where they can actually access their old memories and walk around in them, using all the information that was barely stored earlier. It acts like Allomantic tin, but only for the memories they've stored. If anyone's seen Kyle XY, that was basically what I was thinking. If not, I may not have explained this very well.

Like a pensieve?

Brandon plans to have an allomancer/Feruchemist SWAT team in the second trilogy

AWESOME. Where/when did he say this?

[Cuaiir]

Like a pensieve?

Probably more relatible to a broad audience, and yes.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Cuaiir

[TheBobs]

AWESOME. Where/when did he say this?

I believe his original plan was a Mistborn serial killer? Would make sense to have such a swat team.

I guess the breeding program worked out.

[Chaos]

Allomancer SWAT team tracking down a Mistborn serial killer. I don't know, he's said it for a while. The main character is a nicrosil Misting.

[Juan]

I get the impression that when you ingest an allomantic metal that you can use with allomancy, you "feel" the resource within you, ready to be burned. When you touch an allomantic metal you can use as a feruchemist, you "feel" the reserve as well, but not within you, within the metal.

Finally, when you ingest an allomantic metal which you can burn and into which you have stored a feruchemical charge, you "feel" three reserves of power within you: the allomantic metal to be burned, the feruchemical store within the metal to be tapped, and the feruchemical charge within the metal, also to be burned with allomancy.

This is how I visualized the moment when Vin tried to burn Sazed's metalmind stud.

Alloy of Law related thought -spoiler-

This is how I imagine Hundredlives was able to stay up a bit longer at the end of Alloy of Law, he swallowed some gold beads.

[Cuaiir]

^^ This is exactly what I was thinking.

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah, I figured he probably swallowed a metalmind or two. Sazed actually hides a metalmind by swallowing it at one point (In TFA).

[None70]

Yeah, I figured he probably swallowed a metalmind or two. Sazed actually hides a metalmind by swallowing it at one point (In TFA).

Thanks, I had not thought about that,

I Thought he had a secret Gold spike which he used as metalmind but this theory make much more sense

[happyman]

They are both good but I still think Brandon will find a specific name for it

I suggest :

Immortal

unbreakable

regenerator

"kickThis post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules"

How about "Terminator"?

I mean seriously. The stories about TLR's healing ability were exaggerated, but not by much.