New questions raised

[+Oltux72]

Not only were question we were quite sure would get answered not answered, but a lot of new questions were raised.

• How come Kelsier is no longer an Allomancer? And if he is not, how did he make the Bands of Mourning? Did he make them? If not, who did?
• If Kelsier is the Sovereign, why did he give the Bands of Mourning away?
• Who sold Chouta on Scadrial?
• Why do normal Aons work on Scadrial? That is why do the Aons themselves work, as opposed to AonDor? Shouldn't symbols based on Scadrial's geography be required?
• Why do the Core Aethers cooperate with the Ghostbloods?

[StanLemon]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Not only were question we were quite sure would get answered not answered, but a lot of new questions were raised.

• How come Kelsier is no longer an Allomancer? And if he is not, how did he make the Bands of Mourning? Did he make them? If not, who did?

A question to add to this, why did he imply he could Steelpush when he was talking through the Seon?

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• If Kelsier is the Sovereign, why did he give the Bands of Mourning away?

My current thought on this is it might have been some deal he made with Harmony

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Who sold Chouta on Scadrial?

Rosharan traders like Nalthis has maybe

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Why do normal Aons work on Scadrial? That is why do the Aons themselves work, as opposed to AonDor? Shouldn't symbols based on Scadrial's geography be required?

I thought that was what the scene where Elantrian Moonlight drew the basin implied was happening

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Why do the Core Aethers cooperate with the Ghostbloods?

I imagine the Aethers are not fan of the Shards or their games

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

A question to add to this, why did he imply he could Steelpush when he was talking through the Seon?

My current thought on this is it might have been some deal he made with Harmony

Rosharan traders like Nalthis has maybe

I thought that was what the scene where Elantrian Moonlight drew the basin implied was happening

I imagine the Aethers are not fan of the Shards or their games

He didn't. When talking via seon, he said he was on an airship - so apparently the airships DO fly via Steelpushing, and not just by giant fans (we already knew "priming" them with A-steel was part of making them go in the first place, at least to drive the "impellers" for the fans).

The bigger question about discovering Kelsier is stapled to a physical body but not possessing even his original mortal Mistborn Allomancy, is that that means he can't have created the Bands of Mourning, either. At least, not personally and directly. So... What happened there?

And definitely, it felt like Daal somehow engineered a con job to "recover" the Bands of Mourning from TenSoon and Co. TenSoon seemed awfully distracted in that meeting, perhaps even under direct communication from Harmony to let those events transpire (the Bands going South). Huh.

We do have a WoB that by Era 3, Scadrial is united, so, we'll get this filled in some time around then, if we don't get some kind of Era 3.5 short story?

Also, what Entrone's "lab" discovered, that one could non-fatally "excise" (!!) the "extra" Investiture of Preservation in a Scadrian that, if sufficiently condensed, made them an Allomancer, to under 5% of a "fully Invested" Hemalurgic spike, well that's just ... interesting.... Is that how the "Excisors" of the Southerners work?

Wasn't Sazed lying to Kelsier that "only atium dust" was harvested n Wax's explosion? We already know lerasium dust was harvested, but given to Wayne... And we never did see Wax's "blue flashes" resolved. Rust it all! But if the amount of atium recovered was equal to the lerasium recovered, how would that be enough for Marsh to live for any significant period of time, even with Compounding?

Who are the "men of gold and red"? They seemed possibly to be some kind of Lifeless (like Kalad's Phantoms), the way they were described and briefly seen, but they also had enough agency or will to have Intent to cross the Perpendicularity, and to be surprised at Marasi's "Pulser grenade" thing to stall them until her team of Allomancers could drain the pool.

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, robardin said:

Wasn't Sazed lying to Kelsier that "only atium dust" was harvested n Wax's explosion? We already know lerasium dust was harvested, but given to Wayne... And we never did see Wax's "blue flashes" resolved. Rust it all! But if the amount of atium recovered was equal to the lerasium recovered, how would that be enough for Marsh to live for any significant period of time, even with Compounding?

They could do more than one explosion to get more Atium.

[+robardin]

Just now, Nameless said:

They could do more than one explosion to get more Atium.

Well, He'd told Wayne that that particular explosion in Wax's lab - unlike all the other ones the Set had done - was special in a way even He didn't understand, and succeeded in splitting off lerasium in dust form. And told Kelsier that the atium that Marsh recently acquired was a result of that same explosion, "collected by the kandra", but that no lerasium had resulted (obviously a lie).

The other half being, even if the explosion WAS uniquely productive in splitting out lerasium and atium, they should be in equal measure, and there wouldn't be all that much atium.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Well, He'd told Wayne that that particular explosion in Wax's lab - unlike all the other ones the Set had done - was special in a way even He didn't understand, and succeeded in splitting off lerasium in dust form. And told Kelsier that the atium that Marsh recently acquired was a result of that same explosion, "collected by the kandra", but that no lerasium had resulted (obviously a lie).

The other half being, even if the explosion WAS uniquely productive in splitting out lerasium and atium, they should be in equal measure, and there wouldn't be all that much atium.

Could be that the Lerasium was mostly destroyed. And he also told Kelsier that he'd done multiple tests to determine that Lerasium was destroyed, so I assume the Kandra managed to replicate Wax's feat.

[+robardin]

As for Autonomy’s saying that Harmony was verging to becoming Discord - I presume that was the “dark shadow” of Harmony that we saw a few times, but not every time, he manifested…

What would be the implication of Sazed’s intent moving to “Discord”? Even more inability to act? Or would he act more often but more erratically (randomly alternating between doing acts of Preservation or of Ruin)?

[+robardin]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not only were question we were quite sure would get answered not answered, but a lot of new questions were raised.

• How come Kelsier is no longer an Allomancer? And if he is not, how did he make the Bands of Mourning? Did he make them? If not, who did?
• If Kelsier is the Sovereign, why did he give the Bands of Mourning away?
• Who sold Chouta on Scadrial?
• Why do normal Aons work on Scadrial? That is why do the Aons themselves work, as opposed to AonDor? Shouldn't symbols based on Scadrial's geography be required?
• Why do the Core Aethers cooperate with the Ghostbloods?

The “Dor in a Jar” allowed the Aons to work as if they were on Sel (probably as if they were in Arelon itself), because the main thing causing Aons to work less and less well away from Arelon on Sel is related to the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm. With the Dor literally “handy”, all that’s needed is the Connection to the Dor to use Aons - having been transformed by the Shaod, or spiritually retconned for that Connection.

The Aons are probably the same as they’d be on Sel, i.e., how to draw and connect them to achieve a specific effect.

[Karger]

discord

1 of 2

noun

dis·cord ˈdi-ˌskȯrd 

 

1

a

: lack of agreement or harmony (as between persons, things, or ideas)

… must we fall into the jabber and babel of discord while victory is still unattained?

Sir Winston Churchill

b

: active quarreling or conflict resulting from discord among persons or factions : strife

marital discord

discord between the two parties

2

a music

(1)

: a combination of musical sounds that strikes the ear harshly

(2)

: dissonance

The song ends on a discord.

b

: a harsh or unpleasant sound

 

Discord seems like the intent that happens when the shard Harmony gets out of alignment either with itself or its world.  This is just a theory of mine but I'm thinking that Harmony is getting kind of cantankerous.  Like Preservation a bit.  It seems to reflexively disagree with doing anything and seems mostly concerned with stopping things from happening.  With people like Kel and his gang around that is kind of a problem.  Sure Saze has kept things locked down well enough for now but how long can things stay that way?

Edited November 16, 2022 by Karger

[Proletariat]

If Shai is able to create self-renewing soulstamp of such power that she can forge Elantrians, couldn't she also create full Feruchemists or Mistborn using more Dor bottles or just by standing in a perpendicularity? Contributing the genes of a few people to the population with those abilities would probably be easier than waiting on Harmony giving peeps lerasium. 

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

He didn't. When talking via seon, he said he was on an airship - so apparently the airships DO fly via Steelpushing, and not just by giant fans (we already knew "priming" them with A-steel was part of making them go in the first place, at least to drive the "impellers" for the fans).

This is the relevant line

Quote

“I will try to accelerate my arrival, but the truth is that I don’t know how much I can do. I’m traveling over water, and so can’t go much faster than I currently am. Dropping things to Steelpush off doesn’t do much with an ocean underneath you.”

That seems to me to be him implying he can Steelpush

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

This is the relevant line

That seems to me to be him implying he can Steelpush

The first thing he said in that same seon conversation was “I’m twelve hours away, moving quickly via airship.”

Either you can imagine his later stating that “…I don’t know how much I can do. I’m traveling over water, and so can’t go much faster than I currently am. Dropping things to Steelpush off doesn’t do much with an ocean underneath you” somehow implies he leapt off a moving airship and started Steelpushing over an ocean, while maintaining the seon connection, and then also by the end of the book is reflecting on how he misses Steelpushing…

…or you can conclude that he’s talking about what the airship is (or isn’t) able to do in terms of speeding up its travel.

Edited November 16, 2022 by robardin

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, Proletariat said:

If Shai is able to create self-renewing soulstamp of such power that she can forge Elantrians, couldn't she also create full Feruchemists or Mistborn using more Dor bottles or just by standing in a perpendicularity? Contributing the genes of a few people to the population with those abilities would probably be easier than waiting on Harmony giving peeps lerasium. 

That’s an interesting point. Creating an Essence Mark for someone else, though, is really, really hard, even if Shai managed to do it in 100 days that one time!

But yeah, in theory, it might not be that hard for her, given enough Dor-in a-Jar, with the right motivation and an honest enough subject, to modify someone with enough sDNA for Allomancy or Feruchemy to have it expressed in a different metal for their Metalborn power, which would probably be less unlikely than being a Mistborn or full Feruchemist.

For example, if Wayne (sniff) could have been stamped to make himself a Compounding gold Twinborn like Miles Dagouter was, until the Essence Mark wore off - it wouldn’t have to be so good a Mark as to last a long time, just give him like five minutes’ worth of Compounding in burning his own goldminds and filling up other ones.

Edited November 16, 2022 by robardin

[Proletariat]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

That’s an interesting point. Creating an Essence Mark for someone else, though, is really, really hard, even if Shai managed to do it in 100 days that one time!

But yeah, in theory, it might not be that hard for her, given enough Dor-in a-Jar, with the right motivation and an honest enough subject, to modify someone with enough sDNA for Allomancy or Feruchemy to have it expressed in a different metal for their Metalborn power, which would probably be less unlikely than being a Mistborn or full Feruchemist.

For example, if Wayne (sniff) could have been stamped to make himself a Compounding gold Twinborn like Miles Dagouter was, until the Essence Mark wore off - it wouldn’t have to be so good a Mark as to last a long time, just give him like five minutes’ worth of Compounding in burning his own goldminds and filling up other ones.

Yeah, I mean the impression I got from this and the WoB is that Forgers are basically the most realmatically aware in the art of transformation but have the most minimal access to investiture of all end-positive arts. Removing her limits to access makes her an absolute beast in changing people's SDNA to do almost anything. Even if it took a while to do a few people she could introduce powerful traits into a population by soul forging someone who then had children passing on the new traits into the rest of the population.

I also wouldn't be surprised if she could just create full unkeyed goldminds using those Dor bottles tbh. If people can figure out how to unkey the mists of Scadrial or the storms on Roshar to use as fuel like the pools or the Dor, then some of these typically low investiture arts like Shai's are going to become almost unrecognisable.

 

[Price_McKinney]

So assuming Wax inhaled enough lerasium to become a mistborn, do we think he’s going to reintroduce powerful allomantic genes into Scandrial? I hope this is the case but he’s already got two children. What do you all think?

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

The bigger question about discovering Kelsier is stapled to a physical body but not possessing even his original mortal Mistborn Allomancy, is that that means he can't have created the Bands of Mourning, either. At least, not personally and directly. So... What happened there?

Unless you are ready to assume that making the Bands of Mourning is the reason he no longer is an Allomancer. Though under that premise it turns extremely hard to explain why he gave them away.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

The other half being, even if the explosion WAS uniquely productive in splitting out lerasium and atium, they should be in equal measure, and there wouldn't be all that much atium.

Equal in terms of Investiture or amount? Can you assume that atium and lerasium are equally invested?

7 hours ago, robardin said:

The “Dor in a Jar” allowed the Aons to work as if they were on Sel (probably as if they were in Arelon itself), because the main thing causing Aons to work less and less well away from Arelon on Sel is related to the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm. With the Dor literally “handy”, all that’s needed is the Connection to the Dor to use Aons - having been transformed by the Shaod, or spiritually retconned for that Connection.

That does not explain that they are limited to Arelon. There is no evidence that the Dor covers less than all of Sel going by the storm in the CR.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

This is the relevant line

That seems to me to be him implying he can Steelpush

Or that there is a medaillion for steelpushing on that airship and that they all know that, it being standard equipment. Or Kelsier having an assistant who is a Coinshot whom they all know to be in his company at that time. This is very thin evidence.

[kenod]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Or that there is a medaillion for steelpushing on that airship and that they all know that, it being standard equipment. Or Kelsier having an assistant who is a Coinshot whom they all know to be in his company at that time. This is very thin evidence.

Another option is that the Ghostbloods aren't actually aware Kelsier can't access the metallic arts anymore, and he's trying to keep them fooled.

[goody153]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

As for Autonomy’s saying that Harmony was verging to becoming Discord - I presume that was the “dark shadow” of Harmony that we saw a few times, but not every time, he manifested…

What would be the implication of Sazed’s intent moving to “Discord”? Even more inability to act? Or would he act more often but more erratically (randomly alternating between doing acts of Preservation or of Ruin)?

Let me quote you an old epigraph

 

Quote

"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

Looks like Sazed is gonna go bonkers lol

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

Let me quote you an old epigraph

"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

Looks like Sazed is gonna go bonkers lol

Niiiice

[JustQuestin2004]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

Wow, this seems like it's aged really well.

Let's list this out verse by verse shall we?

1) "He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them"; Harmony is the protector of Scadrial, so check. He's also caused some messed up stuff to happen, Lessie being a prime example. Double check.

2) "He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic": Saved the world? Check. Heresy? Well I'm sure the Malwish would just love to make worshipping him heresy if they knew about him being the technical cause of their little cold problem. But let's list this as unchecked for now.

3) "His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it": Not Discord yet but he's getting there. Half-Checked. Love him for it? Maybe if he intervenes in a war or something. Let's uncheck this.

3 and a half checks, with more on the way. Damn how far did Leras see? Did he know about Harmony? Does he have yet another plan?

[Subvisual Haze]

22 hours ago, StanLemon said:

A question to add to this, why did he imply he could Steelpush when he was talking through the Seon?

I think the most straightforward answer to this is that Kel is lying to his own people about his actual capabilities.

[Ninth of the Night]

Yeah it makes sense that Kel is just lying to keep up appearances. Likely fearing that people won't follow him if they believe he has no actual power. The question then is, how does he keep this hidden? Surely other Ghostbloods would have tested him in some way to prove he's the real deal before joining.

And I'm pretty sure him not having Allomancy is already explained. He lost those abilities after his death. His current body isn't actually alive, he's still a cognitive shadow, just one stapled to a corpse. No connection to the physical realm means no Allomancy.

[Storyspren]

42 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Yeah it makes sense that Kel is just lying to keep up appearances. Likely fearing that people won't follow him if they believe he has no actual power. The question then is, how does he keep this hidden? Surely other Ghostbloods would have tested him in some way to prove he's the real deal before joining.

And I'm pretty sure him not having Allomancy is already explained. He lost those abilities after his death. His current body isn't actually alive, he's still a cognitive shadow, just one stapled to a corpse. No connection to the physical realm means no Allomancy.

But is that something a couple dozen more spikes really couldn't solve?

And I'm still skeeved out by how his body has flesh and so forth.

I know people have said maybe a Kandra assembled the bones then you staple in Kelsier or some such. Seems weak to me though.

More likely he is time sharing his body with someone.

 

[drunkenbotanist]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:16 PM, robardin said:

Well, He'd told Wayne that that particular explosion in Wax's lab - unlike all the other ones the Set had done - was special in a way even He didn't understand, and succeeded in splitting off lerasium in dust form. And told Kelsier that the atium that Marsh recently acquired was a result of that same explosion, "collected by the kandra", but that no lerasium had resulted (obviously a lie).

The other half being, even if the explosion WAS uniquely productive in splitting out lerasium and atium, they should be in equal measure, and there wouldn't be all that much atium.

I kinda feel like Sazed can make harmonium and atium more or less at will but really doesn't want to, so used the explosion as an excuse to give Marsh more atium, and Wayne lerasium 

[The Cosmere Unaware]

It was said spikes wouldn't take to Kelsier 'as he is now', seems they straight up just don't transfer their abilities outside of the eyespike that staples him to the body.