alder24 Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 Oh boy, here we go again, writing a long boy 19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation is, if the Stormfather's Bondsmith can't surgebind anywhere neither can allomancers. But both can. That's not how allomancy work, there is a difference between allomancy and surges - Radiants can't do anything without their sprens, Bondsmiths might (or not, we don't know) works the same. 21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Only by killing Kaladin in his sleep. If Kaladin could fight he would wipe the floor with Kelsier Kaladin could beat Vin, how on earth would Kelsier win? Ask Brandon, not me, he decided that Kelsier would win, so we must go with it. Kelsier is goon in fighting against superior opponent (inquisitor) and surviving. It's his main thing. 23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Hoid does it, why would he not tell Jasnah? I'm gonna give you a RAFO card. We don't know what he does, why he does that and what he would tell Jasnah. After all, he would watch Roshar burn if it means getting what he wants 25 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: He doesn't they do. The spren say that the fifth ideal means no longer following the third, which most swear to Nale. The Skybreakers love and respect Nale, and they don't need to progress, so why leave him? That just wrong. Did Kaladin's 2nd oath no longer mattered when he sworn 3rd? It is still valid to some extend. They don't work like that, they want to progress as that would made them more usefull. Stop making illogical claims, just to support your arguments. 27 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That is strictly not true, there are people willing to say all five ideals on the spot, along with spren who will actively seek them out. "someone who's emotionally ready to swear all five on the spot?" That doesn't mean they don't struggle in the past and overcome it already... But that would be rare if it ever happened. 30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Promises and payoff. I've listened to Brandon's lectures and I know how writing works, if the duel is foiled it undoes everything the coalition has worked for for three books. That won't happen. The duel will take place despite Taravangian's best attempts. Book 5 happens before AoL, if you refuse to give Roshar anything past RoW we can set Scadrial back to before AoL and they get completely annihilated. Book 5 is before W&W but we don't know WHAT will happen! So I'm saying let's take all that already have happened and extrapolate it into future remaining logical and cautious. Undoing duel does not waste everything, it creates new opportunities. I believe that SA5 will end with Dalinar on Tdium side, Stormfather dead, no more Stormlight, Roshar completely devastated by endless rain, which would destroy Kharbrant, which would mean Tdium broke his promise with himself, seriously wounding himself, that leave him unable to act. Spoiler  "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears" That just means there is many possibilities of how things may go, not just the one you like. Let's make reasonable assumptions that would melt the best and the worst scenario in the middle. So Dalinar is alive, he is better but he is not an master, and cannot do stuff like moving Oathgates, connecting Stormlight to Scadrial or Stormfather and sprens to Scadrial etc - or it has big limitations. 40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why on earth would they try to invade through it? Just soulcast a massive block of aluminum on top of it and call it a day. Invade through your own perpendicularities and Oathgates. I was saying if Roshar would invide Scadrial through Harmony's perpendicularity, they would have problems with capturing it, and Scadrial has only one perpendicularity. 42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. The Oathgate spren can be moved off world as easily as any other 2. The aimians don't have surgebinding to make moving the Oathgate easy. 3. The Sibling is present throughout all the stone of Urithiru, but that's cut away and removed, or manipulated with Cohesion all the time. None of them are harder to move than giant shardblades. 1 which is very hard, 2 yup, 3. that deosn't mean The Sibling can be moved, it is a different spren. Moving Shardblade out of Roshar is very hard. And yes, I know you will say "connectios" but they might not get that, they might not learn that, they might have problems with that. Old radiants did not do it, despite having thousands of years. 46 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Q. Why are the Ghostbloods looking for BAM? A. Because she can disconnect Voidlight from Roshar. Any Bondsmith can do the same.  If he know how. 47 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Just collect the gemhearts that are on the seafloor. It's not like the dead ones need them. And why would they not spend time figuring out perfect gems? They are more important now than ever. With cohesion they can try as many times as they like, turning the gemstone soft, and shaping it until it stops leaking. Good luck locating them and geting to them. We can lost multiple planes in the ocean, and you think they can find some small rocks? The Thrill would not be thrown into the ocean if it was that easy to get it out. They will work on making perfect gems, but I doubt they will make them in huge numbers. 50 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You have ONE example and use that as the baseline for the entire species? No, we know how entire species is thinking based on two Inksprens as they told us how rest of them is thinking. 52 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: I'm the one who started the discussion I know better then anyone what it is for. It's pretty easy to find people who are dangerous from those hiding based on position. Near the window = threat. Away in the basement holding onto family = not threat. And while no not every Rosharan is a radiant, there are more than enough of them to do most of the work, like capturing Scadrian weapons and replicating firearms for the rest of the army. Yes, you do, Scadrial vs Roshar, if only all of Scadiral were Metalborn, and all of Roshar were Radients, you would be correct, as that's all we talking about. Civilians forced to stand next to window = threat - your logic. On Roshar there are no houses in CR. Also good luck making working modern weapons without coal - is it on Roshar? It was said it's to young to make fossils by Zahel. 57 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Lightweavers can't be found by secretspren, and there are only a handful of leechers, as seen by how they had to call in one from a different octent in SoS. It would be impossible to touch everyone in the entire command structure in any reasonable time, much less the entire army. You have leaching grenades now. No need for touching. And Lightweavers might be found by skilful seeker - as they can even sence feruchemy. 58 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Yes, but they were still given them. If it didn't matter why bother? They were only going to be there a short time. For the ship stability, speed and rules. Here is better example - supplies does not have any medalions on them, and they weight a lot. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The papers they ripped to shreds and then soaked in water? The papers that Wax recovered from van and used them to locate the rocket? Yes, that's the one. And probably more captured by the police afterward. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Then how did Wayne get the water in the barrels? They have to be exposed to air at some point, it would be too dangerous to bring it all the way from Scadrial like that, so they have to take the Harmonium out of the oil on Roshar. Please, you are smarter than this. You can SCALE DOWN the bombs, SEAL them off from the elements, and make automatic ignition. Or even radio-button. I don't believe I had to explain this... 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Anti-light is far more powerful than anything Scadrial has, fist sized gems could easily take out Elendel. And delivery is easy, build the bomb, set up a timer to mix the lights and drop it from the CR into the physical. And Stormlight is so common why would they need to conserve it? One person can deliver it from CR, not that much of a delivery system. Anti-light is more powerfull. Common on Roshar, not on Scadrial, not when you are on the mission, in the middle of the fight etc. And preserving anti-light is a good idea when you killing fused and your production is small and limited. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You can make instruments that hit it for you. Like the sound plates Navani used. You need to hear it first, to make it, it might take time as slight differences would make the plate not work, but yes. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Roshar has higher population and can soulcast everything they need to make guns. Steal a few, reverse engineer them, and boom. Alternatively they could make fabrial firearms after seeing guns for the first time. Easy Roshar win. yeaah, no. just nope. Soulcasted gunpowder - very easy. Guns has to many moving parts to soulcast them easily. Not to mention how limited that would be, and only few could do it. Just no. And just because you have them doesn't mean you can use them. I know you are Roshar-fanboy, but hold your chulls. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No, it was stopped because Autonomy decided that Scadrial had earned being left alone. Because army could not get on the other side...  30 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: ...No. Millimeters? Really? Surprisingly in real full helmets, they tent to be very small. 32 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: You don't try to kill all your enemies. You scare them. That's the point! Morale is winning the battle! If you can defeat the enemy befere there is a battle, you won! 34 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum. That is really great point, and huge advantage for Scadrial. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: especially when you look at 4 pages back Tbf, when I saw just just the same arguments over and over on the first page, I skipped that to now - Sorry Frustration   16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Well capture Re-Shephir, and releases midnight essence in Elendel. And the Thrill to, because why not. Haha, that would make a mess for sure 17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why would they use gunpowder? I have a number of ways they could do it with fabrials. Gunpowder is easy  But you need to catch up to the guns and understand them, that's too big of an leap for Roshar. Too big.   I'm barely catching up with your responses - I'm too slow. But still we're not discussing proper tactics, soldiers, weapons and logistics - that's what wins the wars. Not flying glowing man. Despite Napoleon's brilliance, he was still loosing battles in places he was absent in 1813 (that was whole coalition tactic) - Radiants won't win battles where they are absent.  Here is another thing that we ALL ignoring, that is Metal Art - Hemalurgy. Give all Scadrials hemalurigic spikes to use. EVERYONE! To steal Radiant bond with sprens. Coinshoters shooting spikes into binding points, Steel Ferrits spiking Bondsmiths (and your favourite Elsecallers) and stealing bonds, wounded man stealing bonds from Edgedancers that tries to help them. Just everyone has a spike to use. However you can imagine it, just do it. Roshar has no idea about that art, and Scadrial has some practice in recent years already. You just have to have intention, and know where to put it. And before you see, Scadiral will have own Radiants fighting against Roshar. Just brilliant, foolproof. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Thanks for those WoB's man. No problem, happy to help. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They can or cannot, but close is not the same as figuring it out. And Dor was already being distributed on Scadrial's CR in Secret History. In SH they needed a pipe to move Dor there, and it was not unkeyed, so less refined Investiture, and need to have "physical" connection to Cognitive over Sel. Quote Teft had it easy? Strongly disagree, I would said he had it as hard as Kaladin to reach 3rd ideal. That struggle is very subjective and someone might think Teft has easy time, yet it only depended on Teft perception, and for him it was very hard. Many Radiants would face similar subjectivly hard struggle to reach 4th ideal. That is why I was specifying that Teft would have easier time with 4th ideal not that he had easy time in general. See the sentence you did not quote in your post " Lopen had relatively easy time with 3rd ideal, and if Teft had lived a bit longer he would most likely have followed quickly after Kaladin (implication was that after being awoken he was almost as close as Kaladin to 4th Oath). " Quote Yes, Stormfather, aka "I didn't know you can do it before you did it" is gonna be a lot of help. Sibling works the same. Kalak and Ishar are unreliable and unstable, and might not want to share that knowledge - Ash was a whole year with them and they did not get that much. Sibling seems to be more knowledgeable, just having some ethical issues relating to fabrials. Stormfather seems to be increasingly communicative, and more aware the longer and deeper his bond with Dalinar his. Kalak explicitly wants to share his knowledge with Shallan, or at least some of it. Ishar would like to, as long as he has his moment of sanity. Quote Yes, there are no Fullborn, and there will be no more (I started it only as what if), and there is only one Elsecaller. Fair to the Bands of Mourning, still that is not one metalmind but 16 combined, and fully charged wich a lot of Investiture, and that might be much more troublesome than regular single metalmind. Possible but very hard. And before one Elsecaller would do it, she would be killed by ultrasonic "medalion Fullborn". It would not be more categorically more difficult, from Investiture stand point it is still just full metalmind, just larger. Elsecallers soulcast people, those are kinda more difficult (what with their own cognitive aspect). How would the medalion Fullborn do that if the Elsecaller is in Cognitive? And since Bands are apparently drained at the moment, where is the medallion Fullborn coming from? Quote Good calculations. Still is it that hard to take care of your skills? Marasi having "useless" metal without training was able to masterfully use it even in AoL. And teams of metalborn are present in era 1, and to some lesser extend era 2 - A-Iron and A-Steel team in AoL, TLM has copied Wax and Wayne and Marasi was suprised that Bilming police has no anti-allomancer team, suggesting that Elendel now has a teams of allomancers etc. They are mention sometime, but not fucused on. Most of the metalborns would be at similar level of skill as squires of Radiants. Still long way to go, yet deadly - like Vin killing her first Mistborn (kind of, not really, but you get the point). Marasi was also a fan of Wax and wanted to become constable. Plus setting up a bubble and hoping target does not notice is not really "masterful", mastery would be adjusting size of bubble, shape or compression factor. Yes in era 1 there were A-pewter and A-iron/steel teams, in Era 2 we have seen only gangs with individual metalborn, or teams of two at most. Hardly coordinated units. Marasi explictly says in TLM that she wants Elendel constables to form anti-allomancy team, but they did not do it yet (and speculates that the chief considers her + Wayne + Wax to be that team). So we actually do know that no such team exists, neither in Elendel, nor in other cities (as they are far smaller, and have far fewer metalborn as result). Most metalborn would be less skilled (in combat) then squires, squires at least train in combat, most metalborn in Era 2 have no reason to as they typically have regular civilan jobs (i.e. coinshot messengers, soothing parlors, etc.)  Quote It will be hard. But Wax had grenade launchers that filled the air with shrapnels, that will do the job. You don't need to hit them, but to fill the air with bullets and shrapnels to drain them out of Stormlight. That is very doable. Reverse lashing would would help diminish this tactic (unless aluminum shrapnel). For those with Shardplate this does not do much. And still while you do not need to hit them, you still need to hit near them (as in within few meters), and Windrunners are more maneuverable then modern jets, faster than anything Scadrians encountered (barring steelrunners, but those don't fly and are exceedingly rare) and don't move like most things do (i.e. they move with constant acceleration). Scadrian AA (whatever they have) is designed to shoot slow moving (tens of miles per hour) large ships, not people sized objects flying hundreds of miles per hour.  Quote Radiants do have advantage, but regular rosharians don't, and they will be doing 95% of fighting in city of size of Elendel (look at scale on map). Scadrials knows the terrain, all little paths they can take, hideouts, canals, houses, towers etc. And they had guns, for rosharians to do any damage they had to be close, they won't pass positions and barricaded roads, filled with guns and machine gun nests, they won't get even close. Not to mention artillery support. Explosives will deal with Radiants, as they won't be able to sustain healing on that scale for long, most won't be be able to manoeuvre well in close quarters and their crystals holding Stormlight would get broken by explosives, and even single bullet. Sure, but Rosharan strategist who would send regular Rosharans first is dumb. If you have supersoldiers, you use those first to soften enemy as much as possible, and then follow up with regular units. Windrunners who can drop anywhere in the city (drop from sky in few seconds, take out machine gun nest, and zip out), Stonewards creating tunnels to move units around, Dustbringers taking down buildings, Elsecaller (or Lightweaver) soulcasting ammunition (or artillery) away. The spheres are ~1 cm in radius, do you know how lucky the shots would have to be to be destroying them systematically? And the light from the broken spheres could still be quickly inhaled (not ideal solution, but not bad when you are getting shot at). And why would Radiants not maneuver well in close quarters? I see no reason for that, and in fact some orders (with Abrasion, Gravitation) would have better ability to maneuver then regular person. Quote With electrum - no way, he sees he's own future and reacts to it instinctively. And in the battle between Kaladin vs Kelsier per WoB, Kelsier would win - and they both are the best of the best. Electrum misting would be hard to deal with as long as he have electrum, he would be keeping Radiants busy with him, giving time for reinforcements to arrive and overwhelm them - that's the way. Again, battle at the end of HoA, regular dudes with atium defeated thousends of Koloses, electrum would work similarly, as we see in era 1. Nope, with electrum you only see the future, no instinctive reactions or improved cognition, that is only atium. To use Electrum effectively would take a lot of training (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e9197), and it would still be much worse than atium. And nope, Kelsier wins only by killing Kaladin off battlefield, Kaladin kills Vin, and Vin is better then Kelsier. And mind you that is Mistborn with Electrum, they will still die against Windrunner of 3rd Oath. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 Electrum misting will die a couple of second later, but they will still die fast against Radiant of most (not all orders). Those dudes were trained soldiers who fought in campaigns, and burned through millennium worth of Atium in few hours, not sustainable tactics. Quote Plate HAS eyeslits! Jasnah plate in RoW was the living plate, so it could adjust, but the regular dead one has eyeslits - Kaladin killed Helaran through eyeslits. Adolin and Dalinar rushing towards archers always cover their eyeslits. So guns would very much help here. And many opponents that Wax encounter were very skilled at aiming. Random bullet is as deadly as aimed one. Artillery do not shoots at one location but on the entire fields, square kilometers of land, The eyeslits that are there can be closed, both on living and deadplate. Adolin's plate closes its eyeslits during battle at the end of WoR, and it shields him from the lighting of Stormforms. How many were skilled enough to hit opening around 1 cm large on a moving target from several meters away (while being rushed by the person no less)? Artillery can still only hit one spot at a time (or how many you guns), not the entire kilometers of field. Plenty of space to move fast, and Shardplate is fast, much less some Radiants. Quote You all forgets about differences in tactics between Roshar and Scadrial. Modern guns and artillery change everything. While Roshar has army marching in one line to engage in swordfights, Scadrial has probably the same tactics as used in Franco-Prussian war or even WW1 with introduction of ariships. Rosharians would be sitting ducks for any machine gun and artillery. Scadrial tactics is defence in depth - layers of lines, fortified positions, machine gun nest, artillery postions of different range - all spaning tens of kilometers in length and depth with position for reatret etc. That sheer difference in tactics would be a key factor in all engagements, and without modern weapons, rosharians would not be able to addapt. Radiants cannot be everywhere, they cannod hold positions for long, Stormlight will get exhausted. Most of the fighting is done by footman, not Radiant - see in Jasnah PoV in battle. Radiants alone will not hold the ground - offten said in SA. It's like sending unsupported tanks in the middle of enemy positions - they will do damage, but single rocket from man-pad and tank is done. Scadrial has no tactics, at least North that is (no info on Malwish). They did not fight any conflict in over 3 centuries. Elendel's "army" has 10000 members, and that is including what is effectively customs and coast guard! Even if the the rest of Basin matches them, that is just 20 000 people. With those numbers they would struggle to hold even just surroundings of Elendel. They have the guns, but no experience in how to use them tactically like that. They will have some naive understanding, but no actual expertise much less understanding on how to leverage on par with WW1 strategists. The biggest things they fight are gangs with tens of members at best, not battles with tens of thousands of soldiers. And yes Radiants cannot hold ground, but they can destroy factories and heavy equipment (Shardblades are kinda custom made for that purpose, see Thunderclasts). And once that is destroyed, Scadrial would have big issues because rebuilding takes time. Quote No, most were capture and traped in Marasi's time bubble. Many others would most likely be capture by the police. And they already has whole bunch of documents sot they can replicate all of that fast. Navani will share, but how many rosharians will be able to hear the rhythms that well? That's the bottleneck. The big bomb was too big to pack on the rocket. However they can make it much smaller, still very powerful, and fit it in the rocket. Very ideal, as you now have tactical nukes. Fair enough. Good to know. Replicating it can be done, but you are also proposing they improve upon it by miniaturizing it. If they could have made a few smaller bombs why did they not? Why go with suicide attack if they could have simply fired 3-4 smaller rockets? It is implied Navani hears the rhythms because humans have become part of Roshar (thought not as adapted as Singers). Also there is conveniently a group of Singers that defected from Odium, and Singer in the Coalition nicknamed "Bridger of Minds", that should help. Quote That's the problem, but they still have some leftover Trellium, more than 5 spikes, possibly more in some storages of Set. But few bombs would still be extreamly destructive. That entirely depends on how much Trellium was in the bomb Wayne stopped. It could have been much more than what is bunch of spikes, or it could not have. Either way, there is a hard cap on how many trellium-harmonium bombs they can deploy, and once that is exhausted (or stolen or soulcasted away) they are done. Quote Radiants on Roshar do not fight on battlefields alone, they have thousands of soldiers fighting as well, without them, Radiants would be quickly overwhelmed. And Scadrial has better tech, tactics, weapons, and logistics. Shard won't hold the ground. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn - and that is what we currently all doing, discussing who is better, Radiants or Metalborn (Radiants). So how about focusing less on few hundreds of Radiants/Metalborn aka tanks that sometimes can fly, and more on hundreds of thousands of regular soldiers? Regular tech and weapons - yes. Tactics - no, they don't really have any not for conlict at scale. Logistics - soulcasters are far superior for supplying army. Plus Roshar has additional 10 years for Fabrial development, and already in RoW they already have FTL communication (span reeds), flight (Bridge 4 + glove Kaladin uses), tasers/numbing agents (painrials), artificial light and heat (heating and lighting fabrials) plus others more esoteric (those fabrials that draw in given compounds). 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: It's not equal. Some have far more than others. I know, I was saying that about couple of sentences later. 6 hours ago, therunner said: Additionally not metals are equally rare, e.g. there is only few F-steel ferring in all of Elendel (population 5 million), but we don't any proper numbers on those distribution (though apparently coinshots and lurchers are among the most common, vs f-steel are among the rarest). Quote ...No. Millimeters? Really? Yep, e.g. 15th century plate had eye slits around 5-8 mm (some even smaller). Quote Firearms are tough to make. Believe me. Rosharans don't have the technology. This is something I have some expertise on, knowing a couple gunsmiths/shop owners and a few military historians. (Friends of family, people I've met.) Rosharans would need: Much more advanced metal refining techniques, gunpowder (something they've never encountered), a way to bore out the barrels (which requires them to have even more technologies), and, if they want the level of Scadrian firearms, rifling, a technique that requires expertise and tools that the Rosharans are literal centuries away from. Ideally, they'd start with bronze-cast cannons and work their way down and up, but the Scadrians are far past that point, far past the musket and flintlock stage, reaching the artillery/cartridge stage, so Roshar would need to put their best scientists on catching up centuries of technological development without material, expertise, or technology. Most of the points in your point are very valid, but this is one that will never, ever happen. But Roshar has soulcasting which allows them to make simple casts from e.g. wood, stone or plaster and then change that into perfect metal of the same shape. They don't need advanced refining techniques, because they could make it wholesale if need be. Sure in much smaller numbers then if they had those techniquest and set up factories, but they could do it and fast. Gunpowder would be bigger issue for them, but anti-light x light reaction could supply that, or they could try and steal some and learn to soulcast it as well (more complicated things can be soulcast, but it takes quite a lot of skills). Or seeing the weapons they could try and replicate the effect (throw small pieces of metal at a high velocity) with Fabrials. They have already attractor fabrials, so repulsor fabrial with additional Duralumin cage for stronger effect and aluminum housing to restrict the vector of effect could do the trick, I think. Roshar does not need to catch up, they would want or need to replicate the effects using their own technology and expertise.  Quote Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum. And if you want to argue about the timeline, then I'll say that we know Lost Metal is before Five, and I'm assuming this would happen later, and the chemist said electrolysis would be within five to ten years. Again, Scadrial does not yet know how to produce aluminum through electrolysis. So while they can produce some amounts, they are not on the industrial scale. And we know that the entire Era 2 is within the SA5 to SA6 gap, which is currently intended to be about 10 years, so not sure what are you talking about the timeline.  Quote You say that firearms depend on the troops, but you're not talking about the technological jump Rome made in the Punic War. You're talking about skipping eight centuries of technological advancement. Even with fabrials, that's a stretch. But Roshar is not 8 centuries behind, they are proceeding along different branch of 'tech tree' (thought that is gross oversimplification). They have FTL communications, airships, gloves that can simulate jetpack (in a limited fashion), aoe tasers (painrials), numbind agents (painrials), telekinetic devices (attractors repelers), artifical heating and light (heat-rieals and spheres on their own though some fabrial could be made). They have basics of germ theory and vaccination. They are formulating basics of quantum theory (allowed through observations of spren). They are using different basis for their technology, but they are not that far behind.  Quote Also, is making a chart or something to keep track of the individual arguments a good idea? Or bad idea, or just unnesecary Charts could be useful, but I fear that most people would just move past them without really engaging. I tried to be more systematic a few times in the old post-RoW thread, and it got quickly washed away. EDIT: Quote Here is another thing that we ALL ignoring, that is Metal Art - Hemalurgy. Give all Scadrials hemalurigic spikes to use. EVERYONE! To steal Radiant bond with sprens. Coinshoters shooting spikes into binding points, Steel Ferrits spiking Bondsmiths (and your favourite Elsecallers) and stealing bonds, wounded man stealing bonds from Edgedancers that tries to help them. Just everyone has a spike to use. However you can imagine it, just do it. Roshar has no idea about that art, and Scadrial has some practice in recent years already. You just have to have intention, and know where to put it. And before you see, Scadiral will have own Radiants fighting against Roshar. Just brilliant, foolproof. You cannot just hit someone anywhere, you need to be precise about it (nearly all Hemalurgy done in Era 1 was guided by Ruin). So Coinshots won't help you there. You also need Intent, know what you are doing and truly mean it (see TLM). To steal bond you would also need to spike the spren, and know the correct bind points on spren (where even bind points on people are not really known), which Scadrials definitely don't know. So yeah, that would not work as easily as you think.  Edited November 26, 2022 by therunner spelling + final point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted November 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Here is another thing that we ALL ignoring, that is Metal Art - Hemalurgy. Give all Scadrials hemalurigic spikes to use. EVERYONE! To steal Radiant bond with sprens. Coinshoters shooting spikes into binding points, Steel Ferrits spiking Bondsmiths (and your favourite Elsecallers) and stealing bonds, wounded man stealing bonds from Edgedancers that tries to help them. Just everyone has a spike to use. However you can imagine it, just do it. Roshar has no idea about that art, and Scadrial has some practice in recent years already. You just have to have intention, and know where to put it. And before you see, Scadiral will have own Radiants fighting against Roshar. Just brilliant, foolproof. Actually spren can break the bond if it's stolen. Spoiler Questioner Can Hemalurgy be used to steal [Surgebinding]? Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically, but since there are spren involved it's not gonna work the same way. It is possible but not gonna be nearly as effective, how about that? Basically since the spren can break the bond in certain instances, you can get it and then immediately lose it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12931  32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Tbf, when I saw just just the same arguments over and over on the first page, I skipped that to now - Sorry Frustration  How dare you.  Feel this 43 minutes ago, alder24 said: I'm barely catching up with your responses - I'm too slow. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's not how allomancy work, there is a difference between allomancy and surges - Radiants can't do anything without their sprens, Bondsmiths might (or not, we don't know) works the same. Preservation serves the same role, it's just everywhere. Just like how the Stormfather is everywhere. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Ask Brandon, not me, he decided that Kelsier would win, so we must go with it. Kelsier is goon in fighting against superior opponent (inquisitor) and surviving. It's his main thing. I literally showed you the WoB you are mentioning, and it says the only way Kelsier wins is by assassination. If Kaladin can fight Kelsier loses. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That just wrong. Did Kaladin's 2nd oath no longer mattered when he sworn 3rd? It is still valid to some extend. They don't work like that, they want to progress as that would made them more usefull. Stop making illogical claims, just to support your arguments. It's not illogical, Szeth's spren said that the fifth oath supercedes the third, which is just a crutch for the knight until they move on. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: "someone who's emotionally ready to swear all five on the spot?" That doesn't mean they don't struggle in the past and overcome it already... But that would be rare if it ever happened. There are tens to hundreds of millions of people on Roshar, even if it was 1 in a thousand there would be thousands of potential candidates. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: So Dalinar is alive, he is better but he is not an master, and cannot do stuff like moving Oathgates, connecting Stormlight to Scadrial or Stormfather and sprens to Scadrial etc - or it has big limitations. Why would it be harder than speaking other languages, or connecting Kaladin to Tien, a man Dalinar has never known or heard about?  2 hours ago, alder24 said: Old radiants did not do it, despite having thousands of years. They never had unchained Bondsmiths. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Good luck locating them and geting to them. We can lost multiple planes in the ocean, and you think they can find some small rocks? The Thrill would not be thrown into the ocean if it was that easy to get it out. They will work on making perfect gems, but I doubt they will make them in huge numbers. The stone will guide people using Cohesion. See Venli finding Lift's prison. All they need to do is get to the bottom, and have the stone guide them. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: No, we know how entire species is thinking based on two Inksprens as they told us how rest of them is thinking. That's like saying if you asked two Americans about something and they gave you the same answer that every American thinks that. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Civilians forced to stand next to window = threat - your logic. On Roshar there are no houses in CR. 1. Who is forcing people to stand near windows? 2. It's not that hard to compare distance. Look at where the souls are in the CR and compare them to the PR location. 2 hours ago, alder24 said:  Also good luck making working modern weapons without coal - is it on Roshar? It was said it's to young to make fossils by Zahel. 1. Why would they use coal, stormlight is much more efficient. 2. That's Nalthis he was talking about, he said Roshar might have some, but I doubt it has the conditions for coal, too much crem. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: You have leaching grenades now. No need for touching. And Lightweavers might be found by skilful seeker - as they can even sence feruchemy. That still doesn't solve the fact that there are so few leechers. And while possible that some seekers could find them, they would be killed as the Lightweaver fled, so that number will quickly dwindle. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: For the ship stability, speed and rules. Here is better example - supplies does not have any medalions on them, and they weight a lot. Supplies might get counted in whatever they do to drop the ship's weight. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: The papers that Wax recovered from van and used them to locate the rocket? Yes, that's the one. And probably more captured by the police afterward. He didn't find the bomb with it, most of the notes were destroyed, he found the rocket because he spotted the ship from the top of the Shaw. 3 hours ago, alder24 said:  Please, you are smarter than this. You can SCALE DOWN the bombs, SEAL them off from the elements, and make automatic ignition. Or even radio-button. I don't believe I had to explain this... It doesn't matter how big you make the bomb, or when. At some point you HAVE to take it out of oil and expose it to air. And there will be some water vapor in that air. If you make it on Scadrial then you have to have the generator running for a long time, and you risk the bomb detonating the longer you leave it like that. If you take it out of the oil on Roshar it will probably detonate as soon as it leaves the oil. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: One person can deliver it from CR, not that much of a delivery system. Anti-light is more powerfull. Common on Roshar, not on Scadrial, not when you are on the mission, in the middle of the fight etc. And preserving anti-light is a good idea when you killing fused and your production is small and limited. 1. Any Elsecaller or Willshaper could do it. 2. Anti-stormlight can't kill fused, and you can make as much as you want why would you ration it? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: You need to hear it first, to make it, it might take time as slight differences would make the plate not work, but yes. It's a wavelength, with measurable effects it would be easy to reproduce, especially since it's already a known(if old) part of music theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 27, 2022 Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Oh boy, here we go again, writing a long boy That's not how allomancy work, there is a difference between allomancy and surges - Radiants can't do anything without their sprens, Bondsmiths might (or not, we don't know) works the same. Ask Brandon, not me, he decided that Kelsier would win, so we must go with it. Kelsier is goon in fighting against superior opponent (inquisitor) and surviving. It's his main thing. I'm gonna give you a RAFO card. We don't know what he does, why he does that and what he would tell Jasnah. After all, he would watch Roshar burn if it means getting what he wants That just wrong. Did Kaladin's 2nd oath no longer mattered when he sworn 3rd? It is still valid to some extend. They don't work like that, they want to progress as that would made them more usefull. Stop making illogical claims, just to support your arguments. "someone who's emotionally ready to swear all five on the spot?" That doesn't mean they don't struggle in the past and overcome it already... But that would be rare if it ever happened. Book 5 is before W&W but we don't know WHAT will happen! So I'm saying let's take all that already have happened and extrapolate it into future remaining logical and cautious. Undoing duel does not waste everything, it creates new opportunities. I believe that SA5 will end with Dalinar on Tdium side, Stormfather dead, no more Stormlight, Roshar completely devastated by endless rain, which would destroy Kharbrant, which would mean Tdium broke his promise with himself, seriously wounding himself, that leave him unable to act.  Reveal hidden contents  "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears" That just means there is many possibilities of how things may go, not just the one you like. Let's make reasonable assumptions that would melt the best and the worst scenario in the middle. So Dalinar is alive, he is better but he is not an master, and cannot do stuff like moving Oathgates, connecting Stormlight to Scadrial or Stormfather and sprens to Scadrial etc - or it has big limitations. I was saying if Roshar would invide Scadrial through Harmony's perpendicularity, they would have problems with capturing it, and Scadrial has only one perpendicularity. 1 which is very hard, 2 yup, 3. that deosn't mean The Sibling can be moved, it is a different spren. Moving Shardblade out of Roshar is very hard. And yes, I know you will say "connectios" but they might not get that, they might not learn that, they might have problems with that. Old radiants did not do it, despite having thousands of years.  If he know how. Good luck locating them and geting to them. We can lost multiple planes in the ocean, and you think they can find some small rocks? The Thrill would not be thrown into the ocean if it was that easy to get it out. They will work on making perfect gems, but I doubt they will make them in huge numbers. No, we know how entire species is thinking based on two Inksprens as they told us how rest of them is thinking. Yes, you do, Scadrial vs Roshar, if only all of Scadiral were Metalborn, and all of Roshar were Radients, you would be correct, as that's all we talking about. Civilians forced to stand next to window = threat - your logic. On Roshar there are no houses in CR. Also good luck making working modern weapons without coal - is it on Roshar? It was said it's to young to make fossils by Zahel. You have leaching grenades now. No need for touching. And Lightweavers might be found by skilful seeker - as they can even sence feruchemy. For the ship stability, speed and rules. Here is better example - supplies does not have any medalions on them, and they weight a lot. The papers that Wax recovered from van and used them to locate the rocket? Yes, that's the one. And probably more captured by the police afterward. Please, you are smarter than this. You can SCALE DOWN the bombs, SEAL them off from the elements, and make automatic ignition. Or even radio-button. I don't believe I had to explain this... One person can deliver it from CR, not that much of a delivery system. Anti-light is more powerfull. Common on Roshar, not on Scadrial, not when you are on the mission, in the middle of the fight etc. And preserving anti-light is a good idea when you killing fused and your production is small and limited. You need to hear it first, to make it, it might take time as slight differences would make the plate not work, but yes. yeaah, no. just nope. Soulcasted gunpowder - very easy. Guns has to many moving parts to soulcast them easily. Not to mention how limited that would be, and only few could do it. Just no. And just because you have them doesn't mean you can use them. I know you are Roshar-fanboy, but hold your chulls. Because army could not get on the other side...  Surprisingly in real full helmets, they tent to be very small. That's the point! Morale is winning the battle! If you can defeat the enemy befere there is a battle, you won! That is really great point, and huge advantage for Scadrial. Tbf, when I saw just just the same arguments over and over on the first page, I skipped that to now - Sorry Frustration   Haha, that would make a mess for sure Gunpowder is easy  But you need to catch up to the guns and understand them, that's too big of an leap for Roshar. Too big.   I'm barely catching up with your responses - I'm too slow. But still we're not discussing proper tactics, soldiers, weapons and logistics - that's what wins the wars. Not flying glowing man. Despite Napoleon's brilliance, he was still loosing battles in places he was absent in 1813 (that was whole coalition tactic) - Radiants won't win battles where they are absent.  Here is another thing that we ALL ignoring, that is Metal Art - Hemalurgy. Give all Scadrials hemalurigic spikes to use. EVERYONE! To steal Radiant bond with sprens. Coinshoters shooting spikes into binding points, Steel Ferrits spiking Bondsmiths (and your favourite Elsecallers) and stealing bonds, wounded man stealing bonds from Edgedancers that tries to help them. Just everyone has a spike to use. However you can imagine it, just do it. Roshar has no idea about that art, and Scadrial has some practice in recent years already. You just have to have intention, and know where to put it. And before you see, Scadiral will have own Radiants fighting against Roshar. Just brilliant, foolproof. You bring up some really good points I still think roshar wins a defense war long term because Dalinar but not with Pryic level losses. Between guns metal born and harmony Scadrial we do a lot of damage.  1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 27, 2022 Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 On 11/24/2022 at 0:53 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said: It's just an acronym for the Cognitive Realm. (Don't worry I was confused to when I first heard about it.) The large ones are pretty big, easily cruise ship sized, given the one the Set had in BoM. They can be moved. Given that Bondsmiths are required to make them I don't think Stormlight is an issue. I thought you said incendiary rounds for a second, and I cannot express how funny I found that. The post RoW discussion had several pages about incendiary rounds. Aluminum machine guns might actually be a problem for a few orders of knights. Especially those without means to create cover or get out of range like Edgedanncers or Dustringers. They actually pose a decent threat to Bondsmiths with those. Well there's really only one way now that Hemalurgy can't compound without a hack and modern souls reject that number of spikes. And that's the bands. So that's not entirely true. There are some hard limits to compounding, they likely won't be able to run at more than 200 mph, and even if they did it would take so long to get enough steel to do that that it won't be worth it.  Reveal hidden contents Questioner I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations? Brandon Sanderson They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that. Questioner Bodily, their bodies-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations. Questioner If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race? Brandon Sanderson Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8380        As of this moment you can't move spren off system.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ati16 Posted November 27, 2022 Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 Roshar wouldn't do well in an invasion against scadrial. Radiants can't get offworld without breaking their bond and shardbearers can't hold ground. If Scadrial decides to use hemalurgy they can do some real powerful stuff like creating crashers like wax which would make rosharan heavy infantry pretty useless. Also Scadrial has only one prependicularity, which is closely guarded by southern scadrians and even if roshar could get elsecallers offworld their stormlight probably wouldn't last until they get there. Additionally scadrial has much more advanced technology than roshar and I doubt that even Roshar's military experience would do well against firearms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 27, 2022 Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 And here we go again - is there a limit on this forum for how big posts can get? We might hit it soon 12 hours ago, therunner said: You cannot just hit someone anywhere, you need to be precise about it (nearly all Hemalurgy done in Era 1 was guided by Ruin). So Coinshots won't help you there. You also need Intent, know what you are doing and truly mean it (see TLM). To steal bond you would also need to spike the spren, and know the correct bind points on spren (where even bind points on people are not really known), which Scadrials definitely don't know. So yeah, that would not work as easily as you think.  9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Actually spren can break the bond if it's stolen. I said it's foolproof! Stop making it look foolish! Even if most coinshoters won't hit where it needs to be, some will and that means dead Radiant, even if spren breaks the bond, this will slowly reduce number of Radiants on Scadrial - and they cannot be that quickly reinforced, not every order has squires and new Radiants must be trained for months. And most important figures will be aready dead - they are irreplaceable. All necessary informations can bu published in newspapers for public, and Steris can organise "Hemalurgy with Death - lessons for beginners". Do you have to spike the spren to steal the bond? Source? I think you only need to spike the person - like Ishar was doing with Dalinar. And when you fight not with just whole army of the planet, but whole population of it, then it's undefeatable - like Spain by Napoleon, but with spikes. See? Foolproof! 12 hours ago, therunner said: In SH they needed a pipe to move Dor there, and it was not unkeyed, so less refined Investiture, and need to have "physical" connection to Cognitive over Sel. Ire had jars with Dor when they moved to capture Preservation. Was that unkeyed? 12 hours ago, therunner said: That is why I was specifying that Teft would have easier time with 4th ideal not that he had easy time in general. See the sentence you did not quote in your post Would he? Just because he was close, doesn't mean he would had it easier - Kaladin was close since OB. For Teft it might be something like "I will accept my past mistakes" or something acknowledging that he can make mistakes. He might knew the words, but didn't want to tell them - just like Kaladin in OB. That is not so much easier. 12 hours ago, therunner said: Sibling seems to be more knowledgeable, just having some ethical issues relating to fabrials. Stormfather seems to be increasingly communicative, and more aware the longer and deeper his bond with Dalinar his. Kalak explicitly wants to share his knowledge with Shallan, or at least some of it. Ishar would like to, as long as he has his moment of sanity. As for now, every spren that bonded seams to be unaware of what the knight can do, until they do it. Just because Stormfather talks more, doesn't mean he will teach Dalinar something that he is not aware of. Kalak don't know anything about Bondsmiths, Ishar want to redo Oahtpact to be free of it. Both insane and Ishar might not return to his cooperative state ever again. 13 hours ago, therunner said: It would not be more categorically more difficult, from Investiture stand point it is still just full metalmind, just larger. Elsecallers soulcast people, those are kinda more difficult (what with their own cognitive aspect). How would the medalion Fullborn do that if the Elsecaller is in Cognitive? And since Bands are apparently drained at the moment, where is the medallion Fullborn coming from? People are less invested than bands, she does not soulcast fused however. For Jasnah it might be hard to do it, but for regular soulcasters it will be almost impossible. But no idea how he would act against someone in CR - there might be a way, emotional allomancy? Bands might be drained, or that's the fake one, suppressed - they might get refilled, and with whole Scadrial population, that will be done quickly (like 20 people at once filling it). 13 hours ago, therunner said: Marasi was also a fan of Wax and wanted to become constable. Plus setting up a bubble and hoping target does not notice is not really "masterful", mastery would be adjusting size of bubble, shape or compression factor. Yes in era 1 there were A-pewter and A-iron/steel teams, in Era 2 we have seen only gangs with individual metalborn, or teams of two at most. Hardly coordinated units. Marasi explictly says in TLM that she wants Elendel constables to form anti-allomancy team, but they did not do it yet (and speculates that the chief considers her + Wayne + Wax to be that team). So we actually do know that no such team exists, neither in Elendel, nor in other cities (as they are far smaller, and have far fewer metalborn as result). Most metalborn would be less skilled (in combat) then squires, squires at least train in combat, most metalborn in Era 2 have no reason to as they typically have regular civilan jobs (i.e. coinshot messengers, soothing parlors, etc.) That be usefull but what she did was enough to fight, and that's what most people needs. Metalborn teams can be quickly organised and trained as assassins and fighters with already experianced trainers like Wax and there is probably a lot of information on that left by Sazed. Squires needs to learn how to swordfight (which can take years of intense training) and use surges - Metalborn needs to learn how to shoot - many already do it. That's why I would say they equal. 13 hours ago, therunner said: Reverse lashing would would help diminish this tactic (unless aluminum shrapnel). For those with Shardplate this does not do much. And still while you do not need to hit them, you still need to hit near them (as in within few meters), and Windrunners are more maneuverable then modern jets, faster than anything Scadrians encountered (barring steelrunners, but those don't fly and are exceedingly rare) and don't move like most things do (i.e. they move with constant acceleration). Scadrian AA (whatever they have) is designed to shoot slow moving (tens of miles per hour) large ships, not people sized objects flying hundreds of miles per hour. And to what you would use that reverse lashing in the air, clouds? Shardplates will take damage and heal using Stormlight - that's the whole point of it. Explosion near the Radiants is enough for pressure wave to break the crystals, and explosions will sent shrapnels with supersonic speed in all directions - they will remain threat for a long time (like the plane that flies through it and take damage - some will get hit in vital place and they will be taken down). Scadrian AA might already use that ammunition type, if not that's basically the only change they need, they have Wax grenades. So no problem as they need to just fill the skies with shrapnels and no windrunner will go through it. 13 hours ago, therunner said: Sure, but Rosharan strategist who would send regular Rosharans first is dumb. If you have supersoldiers, you use those first to soften enemy as much as possible, and then follow up with regular units. Windrunners who can drop anywhere in the city (drop from sky in few seconds, take out machine gun nest, and zip out), Stonewards creating tunnels to move units around, Dustbringers taking down buildings, Elsecaller (or Lightweaver) soulcasting ammunition (or artillery) away. The spheres are ~1 cm in radius, do you know how lucky the shots would have to be to be destroying them systematically? And the light from the broken spheres could still be quickly inhaled (not ideal solution, but not bad when you are getting shot at). And why would Radiants not maneuver well in close quarters? I see no reason for that, and in fact some orders (with Abrasion, Gravitation) would have better ability to maneuver then regular person. If they had them, there is too few Radiants to be everywhere. And even in OB in Kholinar battle, despite having Shardbeares, they send in regular soldiers to clear the corridor. There are at best 300-500 Radiants right know, most are from 2 orders. You can double it after 10 years, and that's still not that much. They wont cover everything. The only thing needed to break the spheres is explosion near it so pressure wave destroys it. And the glass can be break far away from explosion - like at the very end of TLM glass was being broken on the other side of the city. Radiants wouldn't maneuver well in close quarters WITH dynamite sticks thrown at them, as there is nothing to get cover behind, nowhere to excape, and small rooms would amplify the explosion - can the Radiant even survive explosion once? It would very quickly drain them out of Stormlight - and add to it leachers grenades that can be made in big numbers in advance... That's a death trap in every room waiting for them. Not to mention litteral traps that can be easily set as seen in AoL - Rosharians have no idea how to fight in modern urban era, on Roshar taking city walls means taking city, they don't fight door to door. Elendel don't have walls. That would be disastrous for Roshar and drain them of every reasourse they have - then Scadial does counteroffensive pushing them back and splittingthier forces and you have Stalingrad in Elendel. Do I need to remind you how it ended for 6th army? 13 hours ago, therunner said: Nope, with electrum you only see the future, no instinctive reactions or improved cognition, that is only atium. To use Electrum effectively would take a lot of training (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e9197), and it would still be much worse than atium. And nope, Kelsier wins only by killing Kaladin off battlefield, Kaladin kills Vin, and Vin is better then Kelsier. And mind you that is Mistborn with Electrum, they will still die against Windrunner of 3rd Oath. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 Electrum misting will die a couple of second later, but they will still die fast against Radiant of most (not all orders). Those dudes were trained soldiers who fought in campaigns, and burned through millennium worth of Atium in few hours, not sustainable tactics. "but it could be very effective." - that's enough for electrum. I don't need them to be like in HoA, They need to only distract (not fight 1on1) Radiants and avoid thier attacks long enough for reinforcements to come - the very thing Kaladin unintentionally do in OB when fighting Amaram. In fight Mistborn might die, but in sneaking into the camp to kill/spike Bondsmiths and Elsecallers or others - he wins. That's the war. Not every battle is on the battlefield and involve swinging swords at each other, and if you can make a difference you take that opportunity. And to escape such Mistborn/Banduser might push emotional allomancy with duralluminum to paralyzed everyone - and then he disappears into the mists (both CR/PR). 13 hours ago, therunner said: The eyeslits that are there can be closed, both on living and deadplate. Adolin's plate closes its eyeslits during battle at the end of WoR, and it shields him from the lighting of Stormforms. How many were skilled enough to hit opening around 1 cm large on a moving target from several meters away (while being rushed by the person no less)? Artillery can still only hit one spot at a time (or how many you guns), not the entire kilometers of field. Plenty of space to move fast, and Shardplate is fast, much less some Radiants. Was that his eyeslits or just the part of helmet that covers his face, that is movable? Even Shardplate illustrations from the books are showing eyeslits. And again Kaladin kill. Not many, but shrapnels, random bullets and ricochets will pose a danger and might hit eyslits when there is lot's of them. That's the point. For living plate intense, focused gunfire do the job. One piece of artillery can hit one spot at a time, hundreds or thousands will cover entire kilometers of field in constand bombardment that nobody can go through. Pressure waves alone from each explosions alone will push any Radiant onto the ground, and there he will slowly get draind off his Stormlight and killed. Not to mention psychological effect of that bombardment - just look how it affected soldiers in trenches in WW1 - Radiants despite glowing armor are still people and can be affected the same way as any others. Psychology in war is a huge factor - Scadrial have advantage here. 13 hours ago, therunner said: Scadrial has no tactics, at least North that is (no info on Malwish). They did not fight any conflict in over 3 centuries. Elendel's "army" has 10000 members, and that is including what is effectively customs and coast guard! Even if the the rest of Basin matches them, that is just 20 000 people. With those numbers they would struggle to hold even just surroundings of Elendel. They have the guns, but no experience in how to use them tactically like that. They will have some naive understanding, but no actual expertise much less understanding on how to leverage on par with WW1 strategists. The biggest things they fight are gangs with tens of members at best, not battles with tens of thousands of soldiers. And yes Radiants cannot hold ground, but they can destroy factories and heavy equipment (Shardblades are kinda custom made for that purpose, see Thunderclasts). And once that is destroyed, Scadrial would have big issues because rebuilding takes time. Just because Scadial was not at war for past 350 years, doesn't mean they don't have any strategy, tactics, training and generals thinking about usage of modern weapons on modern battlefield. They have generals with medals so there is something going on in that military. And Roshar will make it easy for them, as they bring swords into the gunfight. They had training with guns and artillery, they quickly adopted and create AA in response to Malwish threat - they've been militarizing themselves for past 6 years. They know how to wage a war even if they did not been at war. Rebuilding factories can be done "relatively" quickly as it was offten done in WW2, but Radiants cannot do such operation on scale of carpet bombing, and factories can be easily guarded by AA and artillery, hidden far away from frontlines, too deep for Radiants to reach them - or they can be relocated with ease. Factories are not a problem, as Scadrial industrialization is huge, few Radiants won't do any difference. And even on Roshar they know how to catch Radiants/Shardplates with ropes and nets - they can easily do the same on Scadrial with any Radiant. 13 hours ago, therunner said: Fair enough. Good to know. Replicating it can be done, but you are also proposing they improve upon it by miniaturizing it. If they could have made a few smaller bombs why did they not? Why go with suicide attack if they could have simply fired 3-4 smaller rockets? It is implied Navani hears the rhythms because humans have become part of Roshar (thought not as adapted as Singers). Also there is conveniently a group of Singers that defected from Odium, and Singer in the Coalition nicknamed "Bridger of Minds", that should help. Because Set had only one chance, and Elendel control and checked any boxes moved into the city so they could not transport it. Rockets had too short range to deliver it to Elendel, and they needed to destroy whole city, so fewer bombs would not make it if detonated in the same place. The more bombs they wanted to use, the more problems they would face. Yes, people can be teach that, but it would take them some time. So doable, but not on large scale. And the Singers on Shattered Plains want to get away from war, not jump straight into interplanetary war. So no "helpers", no Willshapers. In defense they would help, not on offense. It's kind of like first coalition meeting in OB - Let's attack Shinovar - but in Spaaaace 14 hours ago, therunner said: That entirely depends on how much Trellium was in the bomb Wayne stopped. It could have been much more than what is bunch of spikes, or it could not have. Either way, there is a hard cap on how many trellium-harmonium bombs they can deploy, and once that is exhausted (or stolen or soulcasted away) they are done. That's right, that's what I've been talking all along. Few bombs each of thermonuclear scale however will be enough to wipe Roshar out of Scadrial alone, especially if aimed at ONLY entry point, Harmony's perpendicularity. It might even destroy perpendicularity. That's enough to stop any invasion and kill most of Radiants. How can you soulcast Harmonium? Also why would they try soulcasting bombs as they don't even recognize them and know what's that for - they need to know what it is to take actions, and Scadiral has huge advantage, as everything that Roshar would met will be unknown for them. Another big key factor. 14 hours ago, therunner said: Regular tech and weapons - yes. Tactics - no, they don't really have any not for conlict at scale. Logistics - soulcasters are far superior for supplying army. Plus Roshar has additional 10 years for Fabrial development, and already in RoW they already have FTL communication (span reeds), flight (Bridge 4 + glove Kaladin uses), tasers/numbing agents (painrials), artificial light and heat (heating and lighting fabrials) plus others more esoteric (those fabrials that draw in given compounds). They have tactics, as explained before. Not used, but they have. Far superior to Rosharian tactics, so even if not perfected it would be like walk in the park. Soulcasters need Stormlight, which must be transported from Roshar - if that can be even done in 10 years, as right now it's impossible. Guess what, Roshar in no way has any logistic capabilities for supporting large scale invasion of another planet from CR. Their supply and reinforcement chain will be slow, long, sparse, with little cargo space, stretched so much that it won't be sustainable. It would take weeks/months to transport single cargo vessel with most of Stormlight in crystals disappearing and giving little supllies to Army of millions starving for food,waiting for weapons, armors, ammunitions and reinforcements. Just crazy and impossible. And they cannot take any supplies from Scadrial land. In all of that discussion we didn't even talk about foreign diseases that would more than decimated all of Roshar forces on Scadrial - simple cold was deadly for Purelakers, on Scadrial all Stormlight would be draind for healing just fraction of invasion force from deadly local illnesses - and it won't even treat whole army. You gonna have situation like Napoleon in Russia combined with Native Americans first contact with Europeans. Scadrial need to just couth in direction of Roshar and it's over. All of that Rosharian tech is already on Scadrial - radios, pomps, airships, grenades, heaters etc - all fueled by electricity not Stormlight. One leacher grenade on Rosharian airship and it's going down. Rosharian airship is one time thing - as it takes thousands of crystals, hundreds of people and two separate locations to make even ONE flight. Scadrial ships can get airborn with ease - even if Elendel have only few of them. 14 hours ago, therunner said: But Roshar has soulcasting which allows them to make simple casts from e.g. wood, stone or plaster and then change that into perfect metal of the same shape. They don't need advanced refining techniques, because they could make it wholesale if need be. Sure in much smaller numbers then if they had those techniquest and set up factories, but they could do it and fast. Gunpowder would be bigger issue for them, but anti-light x light reaction could supply that, or they could try and steal some and learn to soulcast it as well (more complicated things can be soulcast, but it takes quite a lot of skills). Or seeing the weapons they could try and replicate the effect (throw small pieces of metal at a high velocity) with Fabrials. They have already attractor fabrials, so repulsor fabrial with additional Duralumin cage for stronger effect and aluminum housing to restrict the vector of effect could do the trick, I think. Roshar does not need to catch up, they would want or need to replicate the effects using their own technology and expertise. Let's admitt it, Roshar won't make firearms, nor copy it in that scenario. They are far to complicated, require far to many small moving parts, precise metalworking and gunpowder. Not gonna happened. And putting small nuclear bombs in your gun is THE wors idea I've ever heard of - it's gonna blown off your gun, your hand, your head, your body, and everyone in 100 meter radius. It would be hard for Roshar to make even gun-like-slingshots in active invasion on other planet, when your supplies for whole army comes in one ship every week. Not to mention large scale production. 14 hours ago, therunner said: Again, Scadrial does not yet know how to produce aluminum through electrolysis. So while they can produce some amounts, they are not on the industrial scale. And we know that the entire Era 2 is within the SA5 to SA6 gap, which is currently intended to be about 10 years, so not sure what are you talking about the timeline. Scadrial already have a lot of aluminum, that's enough for sticks, bullets and boxes (droped from skies on Elsecaller - who likes to put boxes on Bands? Uno reverse card!  ). And didn't TLA endend with epilogue 2 years after Wayne death? That's a long time to progress, Like Roshar have. 14 hours ago, therunner said: But Roshar is not 8 centuries behind, they are proceeding along different branch of 'tech tree' (thought that is gross oversimplification). They have FTL communications, airships, gloves that can simulate jetpack (in a limited fashion), aoe tasers (painrials), numbind agents (painrials), telekinetic devices (attractors repelers), artifical heating and light (heat-rieals and spheres on their own though some fabrial could be made). They have basics of germ theory and vaccination. They are formulating basics of quantum theory (allowed through observations of spren). They are using different basis for their technology, but they are not that far behind. It's not about switching swords for guns, it's about changing every aspect of society. Industry, government, education, agriculture, mining, transport, processing etc list goes on. Roshar is very much hundreds years behind Scadrial, with few fancy toys. Right now they cannot industrialize on large scale.  Wow, therunner, I'm done with you after storm knows how long. So good to finally talk about tactics, strategy and logistic not flying men again.  11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Preservation serves the same role, it's just everywhere. Just like how the Stormfather is everywhere. Not really, Preservation is only needed on the very first moment of becoming metalborn, then they can use it wherever they want as it not Scadiral's metal that are important, it's just any metal. Radiant's are strictly bound to Stormlight, which is strictly bound to Roshar. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: I literally showed you the WoB you are mentioning, and it says the only way Kelsier wins is by assassination. If Kaladin can fight Kelsier loses. Yes, that's fair, but as I answer therunner - not every battle is fight on the battlefield. Killing someone in his sleep is as victorious as in the middle of fight. More details somwhere above, after short scroling - I hope it's short. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: It's not illogical, Szeth's spren said that the fifth oath supercedes the third, which is just a crutch for the knight until they move on. I doubt there would be more than few 5th ideal Radiants of any order per generation. It's just very hard to reach it. So it's not like they don't want to reach 5th ideal, it's hard for them to get prepared for next ideal, as it's means new understanding of law and how to enforced it. And that's Nale's thing to, following the law, if someone is ready for next ideal, he won't stop them from reaching it. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: There are tens to hundreds of millions of people on Roshar, even if it was 1 in a thousand there would be thousands of potential candidates. So optimistic. Getting rid of your demons is so easy? We now have therapists, and we all now how mental care looks on Roshar. So no, Hoid might be the one, but he had millennia to get there. Just because Brandon said it is possible it deosn't mean it's gonna happen and be as common as chull. Not to mention sprens must first find that person, and that might be troublesome. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why would it be harder than speaking other languages, or connecting Kaladin to Tien, a man Dalinar has never known or heard about? Dalinar had to constantly reconnect and touch Azir's people to keep the bond to their language. Dalinar is strongly connected to Kaladin, and Kaladin to Dalinar and Stromfather, and it was happening during storm - I doubt he could make the same thing with someone else, that he doesn't. Touching is a big thing for connection manipulation, even Ishar is doing it - it might be hard for Dalinar to connect spren with Scadrial if it means touching Scadrial in some way. He's gonna touch spren and then walk for weeks with thread in his hand? That's gonna look funny for sure. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They never had unchained Bondsmiths. That's like a child, and knows nothing? Not really helpful, even if with little training on how to remade Oathpact, not on waging interplanetary wars from CR. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The stone will guide people using Cohesion. See Venli finding Lift's prison. All they need to do is get to the bottom, and have the stone guide them. But the bottom of the ocean is not made of stone, but layers of sediment, and lifeforms. So no. That's not gonna work - and again, if that was so easy than fused would already recover it. Not to mention having Stormlight for weeks of suffocation and being crushed by pressure - nope. Be realistic. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That's like saying if you asked two Americans about something and they gave you the same answer that every American thinks that. Except Americans are not like sprens - everlasting, almost unchanging spirits, characterized with unique ideas for each species. So you can tell all about whole species just from word and behaviour of one specimen - because they are sprens. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. Who is forcing people to stand near windows? 2. It's not that hard to compare distance. Look at where the souls are in the CR and compare them to the PR location. 1. Themselves, sense of duty for their planet and nation. Or a man with gun among them, or in basement, or bomb that would explode when they move. But more likely the first option. 2. CR doesn't scale as PR. And just concetration of souls can be faulty - you are gonna look at that huge incoming concetration of souls from the north, and you missed few people sneaking on you from south - it turns out that no people were coming from north, but weird, squishy, four-legged and hairy creatures that goes "beee" (sheeps) - but your gonna be dead with aluminum spike through your heart, and decapitated. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. Why would they use coal, stormlight is much more efficient. 2. That's Nalthis he was talking about, he said Roshar might have some, but I doubt it has the conditions for coal, too much crem. Stormlight can be suck out, stormlight can be more important on frontlines, even more, when your logistic supply lines have so little ships comming from roshar after weeks of travel. Coal is fuel of industry. It was said, that Roshar is too young to have fossils, and coal is just that, plant fossils. Oil is the same. So no coal/oil on Roshar. And if Rosharians wants to have industry on conquered parts of Scadiral it would be even harder for them to fuel it. And the coal is needed for metalworks and big furnaces to fuel industry - that's what I meant. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That still doesn't solve the fact that there are so few leechers. And while possible that some seekers could find them, they would be killed as the Lightweaver fled, so that number will quickly dwindle. Leaching grenades. And the seekers won't be running towards Radiants screeming "I've found one" but staying behind and telling (radio are a thing) others what they have felt - Radiants might be fully unaware that seekers even exists. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Supplies might get counted in whatever they do to drop the ship's weight. Might, or that's might be the max weight that ship can carry normally. As the bagpacks in BoM on little ship were just place there. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: He didn't find the bomb with it, most of the notes were destroyed, he found the rocket because he spotted the ship from the top of the Shaw. He literally figured it out that rocket will be on Shaw, that was looking like construction side from outside (pointed out in the books), because notes had informations about rockets and range - so he figure it out that launching it from higher position would result in bigger range. He did not see it, he couldn't. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: It doesn't matter how big you make the bomb, or when. At some point you HAVE to take it out of oil and expose it to air. And there will be some water vapor in that air. If you make it on Scadrial then you have to have the generator running for a long time, and you risk the bomb detonating the longer you leave it like that. If you take it out of the oil on Roshar it will probably detonate as soon as it leaves the oil. You just don't understand, you don't have to! First you do that, in pressure chamber in the vacuum, or with dry air conditions and place everything where it should be placed and then you close the box. That's it. It is sealed off and ready to make boom. No exposure to air is required to make it explode. Just box. Sealed off. And then you press the button, and you've become death, the destroyer of the worlds. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. Any Elsecaller or Willshaper could do it. 2. Anti-stormlight can't kill fused, and you can make as much as you want why would you ration it? There is and will be ONE Elsecaller, and Willshapers don't want to be close to any war, especially interplanetary one, as they just want to sing in peace. As they don't have big manufacturing power, they do what's needed the most - anti-voidlight - and use it to kill Fused and Voidsprens, they don't play with big explosives, that DON'T kill Fused and Voidsprens. As I said, Roshar's explosive capabilities are small, simmilar to Scadrial's, but with delicate vessels, hand delivery, and hand, slow ignition - not ideal. 12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: It's a wavelength, with measurable effects it would be easy to reproduce, especially since it's already a known(if old) part of music theory. It is a wavelength, yet making it is not just following the wavelength. They need to precisely hear what they doing, and any mistake will slow them down, or forced to make it again. Any impurities in plate will make it not repeatable. My point is, it's gonna take humans some time to copy that, and manufactoring anti-light will be slow and in small quantities.  Uff, another one bites the dust. That's a long reply. Don't forget that Roshar's high command is composed mostly of men that can't read. When invading foreign planet, fulled with things that you never seen before, weapons, surges and tactics alien to anyone on Roshar the ability to express himself in clear manner, and to give written commands understood by everyone might be quite usefull.  3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: You bring up some really good points I still think roshar wins a defense war long term because Dalinar but not with Pryic level losses. Between guns metal born and harmony Scadrial we do a lot of damage. Thanks, I'm trying. However my opinion is that no offworld invasion from CR can be successful for any side, as there is only one way in, no logistics in place, no supplies, no vessels, basically no anything that would support invasion on that scale, that far away, through alien land in CR - somewhere in previous posts I talk about that. But let's go with "what if somehow they made it into PR".  1 hour ago, Ati16 said: Roshar wouldn't do well in an invasion against scadrial. Radiants can't get offworld without breaking their bond and shardbearers can't hold ground. If Scadrial decides to use hemalurgy they can do some real powerful stuff like creating crashers like wax which would make rosharan heavy infantry pretty useless. Also Scadrial has only one prependicularity, which is closely guarded by southern scadrians and even if roshar could get elsecallers offworld their stormlight probably wouldn't last until they get there. Additionally scadrial has much more advanced technology than roshar and I doubt that even Roshar's military experience would do well against firearms. That's the biggest problems with Roshar inviding Scadrial. And Scadrial's perpendicularity is located not in the South, but North (?), in Pits of Eltania guarded by Koloss (one of Jak's adventure), which is even worst.   Done for, not, it's taking me longer and longer to reply. But that's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 27, 2022 Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I said it's foolproof! Stop making it look foolish! Even if most coinshoters won't hit where it needs to be, some will and that means dead Radiant, even if spren breaks the bond, this will slowly reduce number of Radiants on Scadrial - and they cannot be that quickly reinforced, not every order has squires and new Radiants must be trained for months. And most important figures will be aready dead - they are irreplaceable. All necessary informations can bu published in newspapers for public, and Steris can organise "Hemalurgy with Death - lessons for beginners". Do you have to spike the spren to steal the bond? Source? I think you only need to spike the person - like Ishar was doing with Dalinar. And when you fight not with just whole army of the planet, but whole population of it, then it's undefeatable - like Spain by Napoleon, but with spikes. See? Foolproof! WoB  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135/#e3347 for needing to spike both spren and Radiant, plus additional WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13432 the spren still has control over bond, and could break it. So you spike the bond out, and the spren breaks the bond that is now trapped in the Spike, and can rebond possibly even with the person you just spiked (if they are still alive). What Bondsmiths are doing is much more complex then Hemalurgy, so conceivably Ishar could steal the bond and make Stormfather unable to break it. Or Stormfather could have broken but was panicking, because it should have been impossible. And when you publish information, Roshar can start using Hemalurgy themselves, to augment regular troops (spren would not like to be bonded with someone with spike). 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Ire had jars with Dor when they moved to capture Preservation. Was that unkeyed? As far as I remember Ire (thank you for reminder of the name) had a pipe stretching through Cognitive which was driving their fortress. I don't think they had any jars. It is conceivable that it was unkeyed and we just did not know at the time. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Would he? Just because he was close, doesn't mean he would had it easier - Kaladin was close since OB. For Teft it might be something like "I will accept my past mistakes" or something acknowledging that he can make mistakes. He might knew the words, but didn't want to tell them - just like Kaladin in OB. That is not so much easier. Shortly before Teft dies he feels harmony between himself and the spren, and thinks to himself he is forgiven and he is close and he has hope. Then he summons Phendora enough to block Shardblade, something Kaladin could not do until swearing 4th Ideal. Chapter 104, pg. 1116. So he sounds optimistic, not in denial like Kaladin, and can do something that Kaladin could not till swearing 4th. I would say I have strong argument on my hand that had Moash not kill Phendora, he would have sworn 4th Ideal even before Kaladin. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: As for now, every spren that bonded seams to be unaware of what the knight can do, until they do it. Just because Stormfather talks more, doesn't mean he will teach Dalinar something that he is not aware of. Kalak don't know anything about Bondsmiths, Ishar want to redo Oahtpact to be free of it. Both insane and Ishar might not return to his cooperative state ever again. Not true, only those spren that crossed to PR and stayed unboded for a while have issues. Half the fun of Lift and Wyndle is that clearly Wyndle knows a lot about what Radiants can do, and how to use their powers, but Lift does not really care (plus has her own weirdness). Fair enough on Stormfather. Kalak has been working on ways to manipulate Connection so he can leave the system, so he can teach Dalinar something at the very least. You can study problem theoretically without being able to practice. Ishar (and other Heralds) are rendered sane by contact with Spiritual realm (SR), so as long as someone opens perpendicularity near them, or Windrunner/Bondsmith swears ideal nearby, they will be temporarily sane (and in Ishar's case, cooperative). 2 hours ago, alder24 said: People are less invested than bands, she does not soulcast fused however. For Jasnah it might be hard to do it, but for regular soulcasters it will be almost impossible. But no idea how he would act against someone in CR - there might be a way, emotional allomancy? Bands might be drained, or that's the fake one, suppressed - they might get refilled, and with whole Scadrial population, that will be done quickly (like 20 people at once filling it). If anything bands and people are comparatively Invested, you cannot push on neither, the human soul is Investiture. But still, regular soulcaster could soulcast full metalmind no need for Elsecaller, again https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681 here he is talking about Soulcasters, i.e. the people wielding soulcasters the device, not Radiants. And average soulcaster could soulcast full metalmind. Multiple people can wield them at once, only one person at a time. And they don't know how to refill regular medallions (NoScad at least), how would they refill BoM when no one apparently know what the hell it is? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That be usefull but what she did was enough to fight, and that's what most people needs. Metalborn teams can be quickly organised and trained as assassins and fighters with already experianced trainers like Wax and there is probably a lot of information on that left by Sazed. Squires needs to learn how to swordfight (which can take years of intense training) and use surges - Metalborn needs to learn how to shoot - many already do it. That's why I would say they equal. No, all she did was delay until reinforcements arrived, not fight. Still stalling can be valid tactics, if you don't mind dying (which would pop the bubble) to a squire or Radiant, since they are better in all physical aspects + have Invested Arts. Source on Metalborn being able to be quickly organized and trained as assassins and fighters? What about pacifists, people with injuries, physically unable people, etc.? And training to become a fighter still take months, even if you just want to become WW1 soldier. And most people in Basin don't shoot, it is not US, I'd bet most have not seen or used a gun in their life (unless living in roughs, which is very small minority of population). Good luck that there are armies ~100 000 strong for potential candidates for Radiancy, and those are already trained. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: And to what you would use that reverse lashing in the air, clouds? Shardplates will take damage and heal using Stormlight - that's the whole point of it. Explosion near the Radiants is enough for pressure wave to break the crystals, and explosions will sent shrapnels with supersonic speed in all directions - they will remain threat for a long time (like the plane that flies through it and take damage - some will get hit in vital place and they will be taken down). Scadrian AA might already use that ammunition type, if not that's basically the only change they need, they have Wax grenades. So no problem as they need to just fill the skies with shrapnels and no windrunner will go through it. Ehm, shield? That is obvious thing to use Reverse lashing on, Kaladin even demonstrated that even before he became 2nd Oath Radiant. Deadplate heals using Stormlight, Living that is debatable. If the crystal breaks, they breath in Stormlight and are still good to go for a few minutes at least, and that assumes the explosion is near enough, and as said before targeting them is difficult. How many shells would they need to "fill" the sky with shrapnel? Since they have dozens of AA guns at best? Quote Was that his eyeslits or just the part of helmet that covers his face, that is movable? Even Shardplate illustrations from the books are showing eyeslits. And again Kaladin kill. Not many, but shrapnels, random bullets and ricochets will pose a danger and might hit eyslits when there is lot's of them. That's the point. For living plate intense, focused gunfire do the job. One piece of artillery can hit one spot at a time, hundreds or thousands will cover entire kilometers of field in constand bombardment that nobody can go through. Pressure waves alone from each explosions alone will push any Radiant onto the ground, and there he will slowly get draind off his Stormlight and killed. Not to mention psychological effect of that bombardment - just look how it affected soldiers in trenches in WW1 - Radiants despite glowing armor are still people and can be affected the same way as any others. Psychology in war is a huge factor - Scadrial have advantage here. Edit: For Adolin, the helm starts overlaying the lightening so it does not blind him, and is partially translucent. So if there is a hole, it has to be small enough to not let appreciable amount of light in (as otherwise he would be blinded regardless), and the description of more suggestive of the helm being fully closed in front of his eyes. Too bad Scadrial does not have neither hundreds nor thousands pieces of artillery, and even if they do, they could not concentrate them on a single battlefield (as it would leave them open everywhere else). Plus constant firing would warp the barrels fast, necessitating repairs, not sustainable in the long run. They most likely don't even have thousand machine guns, what with army that is 10 000 strong, much less artillery which needs ~5-10 people to be operated and supported properly. Regarding psychology, I would expect the side that actually fought in wars to have advantage over the side that never did, so Roshar would have advantage there.  2 hours ago, alder24 said: If they had them, there is too few Radiants to be everywhere. And even in OB in Kholinar battle, despite having Shardbeares, they send in regular soldiers to clear the corridor. There are at best 300-500 Radiants right know, most are from 2 orders. You can double it after 10 years, and that's still not that much. They wont cover everything. The only thing needed to break the spheres is explosion near it so pressure wave destroys it. And the glass can be break far away from explosion - like at the very end of TLM glass was being broken on the other side of the city. Radiants wouldn't maneuver well in close quarters WITH dynamite sticks thrown at them, as there is nothing to get cover behind, nowhere to excape, and small rooms would amplify the explosion - can the Radiant even survive explosion once? It would very quickly drain them out of Stormlight - and add to it leachers grenades that can be made in big numbers in advance... That's a death trap in every room waiting for them. Not to mention litteral traps that can be easily set as seen in AoL - Rosharians have no idea how to fight in modern urban era, on Roshar taking city walls means taking city, they don't fight door to door. Elendel don't have walls. That would be disastrous for Roshar and drain them of every reasourse they have - then Scadial does counteroffensive pushing them back and splittingthier forces and you have Stalingrad in Elendel. Do I need to remind you how it ended for 6th army? No, 10 years ago there were 300-500 Radiants, and those numbers got there in a year and a half from zero. And you don't need to cover everything, you need to destroy command centers, weapon/ammunition stockpiles, and centers of resistance. If Scadrians are throwing stick of dynamites in close quarters to try and kill Radiants they are killing themselves far more effectively, since they cannot heal, unlike Radiants. Not the best tactic, arguably quite bad one. Gold compounders can survive explosions, and Radiant healing is on par with that https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336 . So yeah, they could survive explosions. Too bad Northern Scadrial has very few grenades, plus you need Leecher on hand relatively close or they lose charge. Neither Scadrians have any idea how to fight urban warfare (or any warfare), so they have same issue. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: "but it could be very effective." - that's enough for electrum. I don't need them to be like in HoA, They need to only distract (not fight 1on1) Radiants and avoid thier attacks long enough for reinforcements to come - the very thing Kaladin unintentionally do in OB when fighting Amaram. In fight Mistborn might die, but in sneaking into the camp to kill/spike Bondsmiths and Elsecallers or others - he wins. That's the war. Not every battle is on the battlefield and involve swinging swords at each other, and if you can make a difference you take that opportunity. And to escape such Mistborn/Banduser might push emotional allomancy with duralluminum to paralyzed everyone - and then he disappears into the mists (both CR/PR). It could be very effective, after taking a long time to master. Time which they would not have. And even then, they see 3 second into future at best, if something is coming at them faster then reaction time + 3 seconds, they still die. Plus specifically Windrunners can use Reverse Lashing to immobilize them, rendering Electrum useless. How would electrum help in sneaking into camp? When there can be spren sentries around, they would be unable to detect? No Band users, Bands are not in NoScad, and are seemingly drained. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Just because Scadial was not at war for past 350 years, doesn't mean they don't have any strategy, tactics, training and generals thinking about usage of modern weapons on modern battlefield. They have generals with medals so there is something going on in that military. And Roshar will make it easy for them, as they bring swords into the gunfight. They had training with guns and artillery, they quickly adopted and create AA in response to Malwish threat - they've been militarizing themselves for past 6 years. They know how to wage a war even if they did not been at war. They don't. They might have theories on how to apply stuff, but considering how naively peaceful they were, I doubt even that. Why prepare for war when the entire humanity lives together in peace (from their perspective)? Theory and practice are very different things, especially at war. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Rebuilding factories can be done "relatively" quickly as it was offten done in WW2, but Radiants cannot do such operation on scale of carpet bombing, and factories can be easily guarded by AA and artillery, hidden far away from frontlines, too deep for Radiants to reach them - or they can be relocated with ease. Factories are not a problem, as Scadrial industrialization is huge, few Radiants won't do any difference. And even on Roshar they know how to catch Radiants/Shardplates with ropes and nets - they can easily do the same on Scadrial with any Radiant. Except Scadrial is not at WW2 level, they are barely WW1 level. Radiants can fly higher than AA guns can shoot, and for bombarding that is ok. And Kaladin on 3rd Oath flew width of continent (thousands of kilometers) on only spheres he could carry, so yeah, they have reach larger than the entire Elendel Basin. Also their industrialization is limited to dozen cities, and most of it is in Elendel proper, so a single city. They know to capture Shardbearer with ropes and nets, not Radiants. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Because Set had only one chance, and Elendel control and checked any boxes moved into the city so they could not transport it. Rockets had too short range to deliver it to Elendel, and they needed to destroy whole city, so fewer bombs would not make it if detonated in the same place. The more bombs they wanted to use, the more problems they would face. They could have fired rockets from a ship, as they have been doing during tests. Yet they did not. Why if they could have? The range is still 40-60 miles apparently. They needed to destroy the government and cause horrible destruction to rally the Outer Cities and claim control, something which could have been done with smaller detonations. Evidence suggests that as it stands the H-T bombs cannot be put on rockets, it is beyond them. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, people can be teach that, but it would take them some time. So doable, but not on large scale. And the Singers on Shattered Plains want to get away from war, not jump straight into interplanetary war. So no "helpers", no Willshapers. In defense they would help, not on offense. It's kind of like first coalition meeting in OB - Let's attack Shinovar - but in Spaaaace Fair enough, then please do the same and disregard Malwish technology and most of Harmonium, as they have no love for Basin. On Willshapers, some might join coalition, depends on the spren. And as Frustration mentioned, you can use plate to generate necessary sound, and that can be easily replicated. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That's right, that's what I've been talking all along. Few bombs each of thermonuclear scale however will be enough to wipe Roshar out of Scadrial alone, especially if aimed at ONLY entry point, Harmony's perpendicularity. It might even destroy perpendicularity. That's enough to stop any invasion and kill most of Radiants. Too bad Rosharans can create their own perpendicularity, or use Elsecalling powered by a Bondsmith to transport massive numbers without need for Harmonies perpendicularity. And if Scadrial has to resort to nuking their own territory, they are not doing particularly well. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: How can you soulcast Harmonium? Also why would they try soulcasting bombs as they don't even recognize them and know what's that for - they need to know what it is to take actions, and Scadiral has huge advantage, as everything that Roshar would met will be unknown for them. Another big key factor. Shardplate (made of godmetal) can be soulcast https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254 . So Trellium could be too. Now it would be very difficult, much more than soulcasting full metalminds, but Elsecaller/Lightweaver potentially boosted by a Bondsmith could probably do it considering the scale of other feats. Plus there is less Trellium than full Shardplate. Spying is how you get information on enemy, and spren and Lightweaver would be very good at that. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: They have tactics, as explained before. Not used, but they have. Far superior to Rosharian tactics, so even if not perfected it would be like walk in the park. Soulcasters need Stormlight, which must be transported from Roshar - if that can be even done in 10 years, as right now it's impossible. Guess what, Roshar in no way has any logistic capabilities for supporting large scale invasion of another planet from CR. Their supply and reinforcement chain will be slow, long, sparse, with little cargo space, stretched so much that it won't be sustainable. It would take weeks/months to transport single cargo vessel with most of Stormlight in crystals disappearing and giving little supllies to Army of millions starving for food,waiting for weapons, armors, ammunitions and reinforcements. Just crazy and impossible. And they cannot take any supplies from Scadrial land. Scadrians have superior weapons not tactics. I would wager side with millennia worth of experience knows tactics better, and could adapt faster when faced with new capabilities. Bondsmith could supply light on location, no need for transport. We are comparing Roshar + 10 years vs Scadrial at TLM. We could compare Roshar at RoW vs Scadrial at RoW, but that would be boring. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: In all of that discussion we didn't even talk about foreign diseases that would more than decimated all of Roshar forces on Scadrial - simple cold was deadly for Purelakers, on Scadrial all Stormlight would be draind for healing just fraction of invasion force from deadly local illnesses - and it won't even treat whole army. You gonna have situation like Napoleon in Russia combined with Native Americans first contact with Europeans. Scadrial need to just couth in direction of Roshar and it's over. That is symmetric scenario, how would Scadrians react to Rosharan pathogens? Not sure how relevant of an argument it is. Hoid is also foreigner, as is Zahel, Azure, that Terris woman, and yet they are not sources of immediate plagues, so it is not as bad as you are making it out to be. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: All of that Rosharian tech is already on Scadrial - radios, pomps, airships, grenades, heaters etc - all fueled by electricity not Stormlight. One leacher grenade on Rosharian airship and it's going down. Rosharian airship is one time thing - as it takes thousands of crystals, hundreds of people and two separate locations to make even ONE flight. Scadrial ships can get airborn with ease - even if Elendel have only few of them. Exactly, they have comparative technology, only power source differs. Also as long as Roshar puts their technology in aluminium boxes, they are ok against leecher grenades (which could not be done for all tech). And Elendel does not have dozens of those grenades, so yeah. Elendel has only one skimmer, and cannot make more. And since you are not considering united Roshar, don't assume united Scadrial. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Let's admitt it, Roshar won't make firearms, nor copy it in that scenario. They are far to complicated, require far to many small moving parts, precise metalworking and gunpowder. Not gonna happened. And putting small nuclear bombs in your gun is THE wors idea I've ever heard of - it's gonna blown off your gun, your hand, your head, your body, and everyone in 100 meter radius. It would be hard for Roshar to make even gun-like-slingshots in active invasion on other planet, when your supplies for whole army comes in one ship every week. Not to mention large scale production. Why not? Replicating something, especially if you have dedicated team of scientist focused on technology development (which Roshar has) is not that difficult. And soulcasting removes need for precise metalwork. Small anti-matter bomb, and as long as you make it small enough, it is explosion as any other. It is just question of yield. Large enough stack of gunpowder would also blow up your head, and yet we put it in guns. Luckily Roshar has large enough population that they could devote some to manufacture. Still, it would be limited, however it would remove some of the advantage of Scadrial. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Scadrial already have a lot of aluminum, that's enough for sticks, bullets and boxes (droped from skies on Elsecaller - who likes to put boxes on Bands? Uno reverse card!  ). And didn't TLA endend with epilogue 2 years after Wayne death? That's a long time to progress, Like Roshar have. Not enough to use it in bullets regularly, even Set don't typically use aluminum bullets (otherwise Wax would die quite fast in that ascent of tower at the end of TLM). True enough, it gives them 2 further years, and Roshar has the same 2 years to advance further. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: It's not about switching swords for guns, it's about changing every aspect of society. Industry, government, education, agriculture, mining, transport, processing etc list goes on. Roshar is very much hundreds years behind Scadrial, with few fancy toys. Right now they cannot industrialize on large scale. Some of these (mining, processing) are of limited necessity for Roshar, especially with Soulcasting (and fabrials can mimic all surges so technological development will make soulcasting even more common). And different Rosharan cultures have different societies, e.g. Thaylenah is very advanced in science and manufacture (they make vacuum tubes which is 19th century invention), Azir has general education system and advanced bureaucracy. Even then, for immediate war, type of society plays less of a role. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: There is and will be ONE Elsecaller, and Willshapers don't want to be close to any war, especially interplanetary one, as they just want to sing in peace And there is no Fullborn, or even proper Mistborn, so why are you using them as examples? If you want to be this strict, be this strict with Scadrial as well (i.e. no unlimited H-T bombds, no Fullborn, Mistborn, or Metalborn strike teams, etc.) 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Leaching grenades. And the seekers won't be running towards Radiants screeming "I've found one" but staying behind and telling (radio are a thing) others what they have felt - Radiants might be fully unaware that seekers even exists. Of which there is limited supply in North, as in there are maybe a dozen, and Marasi needs to have new ones regularly delivered. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That's the biggest problems with Roshar inviding Scadrial. And Scadrial's perpendicularity is located not in the South, but North (?), in Pits of Eltania guarded by Koloss (one of Jak's adventure), which is even worst. 1. Elsecallers 2. Bondsmith perpendicularity. Also Pits of Eltania don't contain perpendicularity, the only descritpion of something which sounds like perpendicularity is in Southern Roughs. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Perpendicularity Edited November 27, 2022 by therunner added one more reply I have overlooked 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted November 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: As of this moment you can't move spren off system.  Yes they can. Hoid has already done it. 15 hours ago, Ati16 said: Radiants can't get offworld without breaking their bond Yes they can, see Hoid. Mraize says that it is a simple Connection issue, so any Bondsmith could make it work. 15 hours ago, Ati16 said: even if roshar could get elsecallers offworld their stormlight probably wouldn't last until they get there. With Cohesion they can make perfect gems. 15 hours ago, Ati16 said: Additionally scadrial has much more advanced technology than roshar and I doubt that even Roshar's military experience would do well against firearms. The only technology more advanced that Scadrial has is firearms. Rosharan sanitation is better, their medicine is better, their transportation is better, they have FTL communication. When it comes to infrastructure Roshar is far ahead of Scadrial even when AoL takes place after SA 5. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Metalborn teams can be quickly organised and trained as assassins and fighters with already experianced trainers like Wax and there is probably a lot of information on that left by Sazed. They don't have a registry of metalborn so they would have to rely exclusively on volunteers to get those powers, further reducing the pool of candidates. And training for assassination takes years. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Explosion near the Radiants is enough for pressure wave to break the crystals, Shardplate will absorb the impact. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Scadrian AA might already use that ammunition type, if not that's basically the only change they need, they have Wax grenades. So no problem as they need to just fill the skies with shrapnels and no windrunner will go through it. N. Scadrian guns can't even hit airships, much less Windrunners who can exit the atmosphere.  12 hours ago, alder24 said: and add to it leachers grenades that can be made in big numbers in advance... They have maybe 12 or so grenades in the north, and about as many leechers without the Malwish the number used would be so small as to be inconsequential. And to top it off a Radiant in plate can't be leeched.  And to counter that what happens when Radiants have fabrials that will suck the blood out of anyone that isn't wearing shardplate? WoR 993. Radiants and blood makers can heal but no one else can. 12 hours ago, alder24 said:  In fight Mistborn might die, but in sneaking into the camp to kill/spike Bondsmiths and Elsecallers or others - he wins. And how do they sneak in when a massive alerter fabrial tells the Rosharans when anyone not from their army enters their camp? WoK 432-433. And there is a massive army of spren able to search out anyone at anytime. 12 hours ago, alder24 said:  And to escape such Mistborn/Banduser might push emotional allomancy with duralluminum to paralyzed everyone - and then he disappears into the mists (both CR/PR). As of right now they have fabrials that can read emotions, in ten years I fully expect them to be able to regulate emotions as well 12 hours ago, alder24 said: That's right, that's what I've been talking all along. Few bombs each of thermonuclear scale however will be enough to wipe Roshar out of Scadrial alone, especially if aimed at ONLY entry point, Harmony's perpendicularity. It might even destroy perpendicularity. That's enough to stop any invasion and kill most of Radiants. Why on earth would they enter through Harmony's perpendicularity? They can just make a portal straight from Urithiru to the front lines. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: In all of that discussion we didn't even talk about foreign diseases that would more than decimated all of Roshar forces on Scadrial - simple cold was deadly for Purelakers, on Scadrial all Stormlight would be draind for healing just fraction of invasion force from deadly local illnesses - and it won't even treat whole army. You gonna have situation like Napoleon in Russia combined with Native Americans first contact with Europeans. Scadrial need to just couth in direction of Roshar and it's over. 1. The cold wasn't deadly, Kaladin remarks in RoW that it didn't deserve to be called a plague. 2. Rosharans have heightened immune system Spoiler Luke Beartline Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object? Brandon Sanderson No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here. Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that. It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here. This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal. Adam Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore. Brandon Sanderson No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14746  12 hours ago, alder24 said: Roshar in no way has any logistic capabilities for supporting large scale invasion of another planet from CR. Their supply and reinforcement chain will be slow, long, sparse, with little cargo space, stretched so much that it won't be sustainable. It would take weeks/months to transport single cargo vessel with most of Stormlight in crystals disappearing and giving little supllies to Army of millions starving for food,waiting for weapons, armors, ammunitions and reinforcements. Just crazy and impossible. And they cannot take any supplies from Scadrial land. 1. Why would they walk through the CR when they have portals? 2. Why can't they steal supplies? 12 hours ago, alder24 said: All of that Rosharian tech is already on Scadrial - radios, pomps, airships, grenades, heaters etc - all fueled by electricity not Stormlight. One leacher grenade on Rosharian airship and it's going down. Rosharian airship is one time thing - as it takes thousands of crystals, hundreds of people and two separate locations to make even ONE flight. Scadrial ships can get airborn with ease - even if Elendel have only few of them. Spanreeds are infinitely faster than radio, they can mechanically replicate steel pushing and ironpulling on not just metal, but liquids, stone, air, plants and dozens of other things as well. Roshar isn't behind, it's ahead. Using Raysium,(which the coalition does have, both Navani's dagger, and Shallan's) they can make their ships much faster, in conjunction with Navani's windmill idea, and a replication of Kaladin's glove, and the fact that fourth bridge is essentially a barge with three layers not a one/two man fighter they can easily make 12-15 fighter jet style aircraft in ten years. All with much higher speed and maneuverability than Scadrian versions. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Not really, Preservation is only needed on the very first moment of becoming metalborn, then they can use it wherever they want as it not Scadiral's metal that are important, it's just any metal. Radiant's are strictly bound to Stormlight, which is strictly bound to Roshar. The metal is only a key, the power comes from Preservation the same way the surges come from the spren. Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation, so the Stormfather's Bondsmith can use their powers anywhere an allomancer can. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: I doubt there would be more than few 5th ideal Radiants of any order per generation. It's just very hard to reach it. So it's not like they don't want to reach 5th ideal, it's hard for them to get prepared for next ideal, as it's means new understanding of law and how to enforced it. And that's Nale's thing to, following the law, if someone is ready for next ideal, he won't stop them from reaching it. So optimistic. Getting rid of your demons is so easy? We now have therapists, and we all now how mental care looks on Roshar. So no, Hoid might be the one, but he had millennia to get there. Just because Brandon said it is possible it deosn't mean it's gonna happen and be as common as chull. Not to mention sprens must first find that person, and that might be troublesome. I right now am ready to swear the first 4(and possibly 5 depending on which oath I take for my third) Skybreaker ideals. And I'm not that unusual. I could probably also do several in Truthwatcher, but without knowing exactly what those are I won't make any promises. And spren can find the people who are ready for their ideals, like how Syl found Kaladin, and people will seek out the orders, just as the orders will seek out new members. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Dalinar had to constantly reconnect and touch Azir's people to keep the bond to their language. Dalinar is strongly connected to Kaladin, and Kaladin to Dalinar and Stromfather, and it was happening during storm - I doubt he could make the same thing with someone else, that he doesn't. Touching is a big thing for connection manipulation, even Ishar is doing it - it might be hard for Dalinar to connect spren with Scadrial if it means touching Scadrial in some way. He's gonna touch spren and then walk for weeks with thread in his hand? That's gonna look funny for sure. Why connect them to Scadrial when you can just remove the one to Roshar? And when did Dalinar ever have to touch someone mid conversation to continue speaking? 12 hours ago, alder24 said: That's like a child, and knows nothing? Not really helpful, even if with little training on how to remade Oathpact, not on waging interplanetary wars from CR. Ishar mastered Bondsmithing in his mortal lifetime. Ten years is easily enough. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: But the bottom of the ocean is not made of stone, but layers of sediment, and lifeforms. So no. That's not gonna work - and again, if that was so easy than fused would already recover it. Not to mention having Stormlight for weeks of suffocation and being crushed by pressure - nope. Be realistic. You forget this is Roshar, Crem will settle to the bottom and become stone. And between shardplate, stormlight and Windrunners ability to alter pressure they will be fine. And why would they spend weeks down their, an hour at most. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Except Americans are not like sprens - everlasting, almost unchanging spirits, characterized with unique ideas for each species. So you can tell all about whole species just from word and behaviour of one specimen - because they are sprens. Syl, Rua, Phrendorana, Notum, Seekir, and dozens of other honorspren all have different opinions and views on humans. They have similarities, but they are far from the same. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: 1. Themselves, sense of duty for their planet and nation. Or a man with gun among them, or in basement, or bomb that would explode when they move. But more likely the first option. 2. CR doesn't scale as PR. And just concetration of souls can be faulty - you are gonna look at that huge incoming concetration of souls from the north, and you missed few people sneaking on you from south - it turns out that no people were coming from north, but weird, squishy, four-legged and hairy creatures that goes "beee" (sheeps) - but your gonna be dead with aluminum spike through your heart, and decapitated. 1.So if they are there with weapons then they are threats, if someone else is threatening them for a tactical advantage they will lose popular support of their own people. 2. The CR isn't that shrunk except in the vertical. And Animal souls are small and dim compared to human ones. They would never work as a distraction. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Stormlight can be suck out, stormlight can be more important on frontlines, even more, when your logistic supply lines have so little ships comming from roshar after weeks of travel. Coal is fuel of industry. It was said, that Roshar is too young to have fossils, and coal is just that, plant fossils. Oil is the same. So no coal/oil on Roshar. And if Rosharians wants to have industry on conquered parts of Scadiral it would be even harder for them to fuel it. And the coal is needed for metalworks and big furnaces to fuel industry - that's what I meant. Roshar is old enough, he literally said 'yours might have some buried deep," and Roshar is thousands of years older than Scadrial. There is so much stormlight that using it everywhere isn't a problem. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: He literally figured it out that rocket will be on Shaw, that was looking like construction side from outside (pointed out in the books), because notes had informations about rockets and range - so he figure it out that launching it from higher position would result in bigger range. He did not see it, he couldn't. It had notes on range, but not the complicated ballistics needed to make it work. That was all destroyed. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Leaching grenades. And the seekers won't be running towards Radiants screeming "I've found one" but staying behind and telling (radio are a thing) others what they have felt - Radiants might be fully unaware that seekers even exists. Grenades have to be charged by a misting pretty regularly. And if Scadrial gets all these precautions against spies Roshar definitely knows about seekers, and even if not they are used to dealing with Secretspren who have basically the same power. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: You just don't understand, you don't have to! First you do that, in pressure chamber in the vacuum, or with dry air conditions and place everything where it should be placed and then you close the box. That's it. It is sealed off and ready to make boom. No exposure to air is required to make it explode. Just box. Sealed off. And then you press the button, and you've become death, the destroyer of the worlds. Scadrial doesn't have a way to remove moisture from the air, otherwise Steris would have added it to the lab. And I don't think the reaction would work in a vacuum, there would be no blast wave as it can't heat the air. This might just make a bunch of light without an explosion. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: There is and will be ONE Elsecaller, and Willshapers don't want to be close to any war, especially interplanetary one, as they just want to sing in peace. As stated above spren are different. You cannot treat them as all the same. And the lightspren have no problem bonding, they just didn't want to bond humans because of their betrayal, but now that that's known to not be the case they will be willing to bond humans. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: As they don't have big manufacturing power, they do what's needed the most - anti-voidlight - and use it to kill Fused and Voidsprens, they don't play with big explosives, that DON'T kill Fused and Voidsprens. As I said, Roshar's explosive capabilities are small, simmilar to Scadrial's, but with delicate vessels, hand delivery, and hand, slow ignition - not ideal. The war with fused ended ten years ago. The ignition would be instant, as soon as the device combined them it would immediately go off, and they could use portal delivery for more high profile targets. Let's also not forget that handheld grenades could be made, as even chip sized gems would be more powerful than the scadrian equivelent. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: It is a wavelength, yet making it is not just following the wavelength. They need to precisely hear what they doing, and any mistake will slow them down, or forced to make it again. Any impurities in plate will make it not repeatable. My point is, it's gonna take humans some time to copy that, and manufactoring anti-light will be slow and in small quantities. Navani made it in a few days just by taking the original plate and making alterations according to math until she got it. It is a purely mathematical equation, any scholar on Roshar could do it. And there is plenty of Stormlight they can make large amounts easily. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Don't forget that Roshar's high command is composed mostly of men that can't read. When invading foreign planet, fulled with things that you never seen before, weapons, surges and tactics alien to anyone on Roshar the ability to express himself in clear manner, and to give written commands understood by everyone might be quite usefull. Only the Alethi, the Azish can, and that's never caused the trouble before, they are prepared to work around this, and it's not even slowing them down by any appreciable margin. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Thanks, I'm trying. However my opinion is that no offworld invasion from CR can be successful for any side, as there is only one way in, no logistics in place, no supplies, no vessels, basically no anything that would support invasion on that scale, that far away, through alien land in CR - somewhere in previous posts I talk about that. But let's go with "what if somehow they made it into PR". They have portals, why would they go through the CR at all? 12 hours ago, alder24 said: That's the biggest problems with Roshar inviding Scadrial. And Scadrial's perpendicularity is located not in the South, but North (?), in Pits of Eltania guarded by Koloss (one of Jak's adventure), which is even worst. Koloss aren't much of a theat, the small ones are weaker than plate, and the big ones are about dead, both of them can be take out easily with a shardblade.  New plan, Bondsmith connects Radiant to preservation and they start using the mists as fuel, hypercharging their surges. Edited November 28, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Yes they can. Hoid has already done it. Yes they can, see Hoid. Mraize says that it is a simple Connection issue, so any Bondsmith could make it work. With Cohesion they can make perfect gems. The only technology more advanced that Scadrial has is firearms. Rosharan sanitation is better, their medicine is better, their transportation is better, they have FTL communication. When it comes to infrastructure Roshar is far ahead of Scadrial even when AoL takes place after SA 5. They don't have a registry of metalborn so they would have to rely exclusively on volunteers to get those powers, further reducing the pool of candidates. And training for assassination takes years. Shardplate will absorb the impact. N. Scadrian guns can't even hit airships, much less Windrunners who can exit the atmosphere.  They have maybe 12 or so grenades in the north, and about as many leechers without the Malwish the number used would be so small as to be inconsequential. And to top it off a Radiant in plate can't be leeched.  And to counter that what happens when Radiants have fabrials that will suck the blood out of anyone that isn't wearing shardplate? WoR 993. Radiants and blood makers can heal but no one else can. And how do they sneak in when a massive alerter fabrial tells the Rosharans when anyone not from their army enters their camp? WoK 432-433. And there is a massive army of spren able to search out anyone at anytime. As of right now they have fabrials that can read emotions, in ten years I fully expect them to be able to regulate emotions as well Why on earth would they enter through Harmony's perpendicularity? They can just make a portal straight from Urithiru to the front lines. 1. The cold wasn't deadly, Kaladin remarks in RoW that it didn't deserve to be called a plague. 2. Rosharans have heightened immune system  Reveal hidden contents Luke Beartline Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object? Brandon Sanderson No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here. Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that. It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here. This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal. Adam Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore. Brandon Sanderson No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14746      1. Why would they walk through the CR when they have portals? 2. Why can't they steal supplies? Spanreeds are infinitely faster than radio, they can mechanically replicate steel pushing and ironpulling on not just metal, but liquids, stone, air, plants and dozens of other things as well. Roshar isn't behind, it's ahead. Using Raysium,(which the coalition does have, both Navani's dagger, and Shallan's) they can make their ships much faster, in conjunction with Navani's windmill idea, and a replication of Kaladin's glove, and the fact that fourth bridge is essentially a barge with three layers not a one/two man fighter they can easily make 12-15 fighter jet style aircraft in ten years. All with much higher speed and maneuverability than Scadrian versions. The metal is only a key, the power comes from Preservation the same way the surges come from the spren. Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation, so the Stormfather's Bondsmith can use their powers anywhere an allomancer can. I right now am ready to swear the first 4(and possibly 5 depending on which oath I take for my third) Skybreaker ideals. And I'm not that unusual. And spren can find the people who are ready for their ideals, like how Syl found Kaladin, and people will seek out the orders, just as the orders will seek out new members. Why connect them to Scadrial when you can just remove the one to Roshar? And when did Dalinar ever have to touch someone mid conversation to continue speaking? Ishar mastered Bondsmithing in his mortal lifetime. Ten years is easily enough. You forget this is Roshar, Crem will settle to the bottom and become stone. And between shardplate, stormlight and Windrunners ability to alter pressure they will be fine. And why would they spend weeks down their, an hour at most. Syl, Rua, Phrendorana, Notum, Seekir, and dozens of other honorspren all have different opinions and views on humans. They have similarities, but they are far from the same. 1.So if they are there with weapons then they are threats, if someone else is threatening them for a tactical advantage they will lose popular support of their own people. 2. The CR isn't that shrunk except in the vertical. And Animal souls are small and dim compared to human ones. They would never work as a distraction. Roshar is old enough, he literally said 'yours might have some buried deep," and Roshar is thousands of years older than Scadrial. There is so much stormlight that using it everywhere isn't a problem. It had notes on range, but not the complicated ballistics needed to make it work. That was all destroyed. Grenades have to be charged by a misting pretty regularly. And if Scadrial gets all these precautions against spies Roshar definitely knows about seekers, and even if not they are used to dealing with Secretspren who have basically the same power. Scadrial doesn't have a way to remove moisture from the air, otherwise Steris would have added it to the lab. And I don't think the reaction would work in a vacuum, there would be no blast wave as it can't heat the air. This might just make a bunch of light without an explosion. As stated above spren are different. You cannot treat them as all the same. And the lightspren have no problem bonding, they just didn't want to bond humans because of their betrayal, but now that that's known to not be the case they will be willing to bond humans. The war with fused ended ten years ago. Navani made it in a few days just by taking the original plate and making alterations according to math until she got it. It is a purely mathematical equation, any scholar on Roshar could do it. And there is plenty of Stormlight they can make large amounts easily. Only the Alethi, the Azish can, and that's never caused the trouble before, they are prepared to work around this, and it's not even slowing them down by any appreciable margin. They have portals, why would they go through the CR at all? Koloss aren't much of a theat, the small ones are weaker than plate, and the big ones are about dead, both of them can be take out easily with a shardblade.  New plan, Bondsmith connects Radiant to preservation and they start using the mists as fuel, hypercharging their surges. Hoid is not roshar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted November 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Hoid is not roshar. No, but he is my example on how it is both possible and already done. Â @alder24Â here's my designs for Rosharans to prevent spies/assassins. Set up alter fabrials, which are set to ignore the Rosharan forces, which is shown to be possible(WoK 432). If anyone unrecognized is approaching the device will blink while simultaneously acting as a painrail on the invader. Anyone attempting to invade will be found and incapacitated. To drain the morale of the Scadrain forces fabrials set to augment fear, anger, agony, and anxiety, along with plague will be flown into population centers at night, and stonewards will bury them inside buildings. Even with seekers able to sense them finding and removing them would be both difficult and time consuming, not to mention the fact that it wouldn't stop the devices effects while it's in use. Edited November 28, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No, but he is my example on how it is both possible and already done.  @alder24 here's my designs for Rosharans to prevent spies/assassins. Set up alter fabrials, which are set to ignore the Rosharan forces, which is shown to be possible(WoK 432). If anyone unrecognized is approaching the device will blink while simultaneously acting as a painrail on the invader. Anyone attempting to invade will be found and incapacitated. To drain the morale of the Scadrain forces fabrials set to augment fear, anger, agony, and anxiety, along with plague will be flown into population centers at night, and stonewards will bury them inside buildings. Even with seekers able to sense them finding and removing them would be both difficult and time consuming, not to mention the fact that it wouldn't stop the devices effects while it's in use. Possibly, yes but if were going with what's possible we have to give Scadrial ftl and space travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted November 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Possibly, yes but if were going with what's possible we have to give Scadrial ftl and space travel. Has Scadrial built a FTL spaceship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Has Scadrial built a FTL spaceship? Has Roshar brought a spen off world? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Has Roshar brought a spen off world? There is Hoid, those Skybreakers in TLM (why else would Brandon put there they are asking about law, and how would coinshots sink several ships so fast?) and Spoiler Sigzil in SP4, thought that is further in future. Additionally, Kalak has been investigating this very issue (moving Invested Entities off-planet) and is now willing to share with Shallan, Ghostbloods are after Ba-Ado-Mishram for this purpose and finally SA5 is Bondsmith book making it natural place to include this sort of investigation and discussion. All this shows that off-world Radiants are near future phenomenon, compared to FTL which is still at least 1-2 centuries away. (jump to Era 3, Era 3 and jump to Era 4 or 5 depending on if Brandon replicated Era 2). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, therunner said: There is Hoid, those Skybreakers in TLM (why else would Brandon put there they are asking about law, and how would coinshots sink several ships so fast?) and  Reveal hidden contents Sigzil in SP4, thought that is further in future. Additionally, Kalak has been investigating this very issue (moving Invested Entities off-planet) and is now willing to share with Shallan, Ghostbloods are after Ba-Ado-Mishram for this purpose and finally SA5 is Bondsmith book making it natural place to include this sort of investigation and discussion. All this shows that off-world Radiants are near future phenomenon, compared to FTL which is still at least 1-2 centuries away. (jump to Era 3, Era 3 and jump to Era 4 or 5 depending on if Brandon replicated Era 2). If hoid and the Ghost bloods count as Roshar then "the ones above " count as Scadrial. 1. Both The Ghost bloods and hoid have access to powers and knowledge that the Rosharians do not. We have know reason to believe that Roshar alone will be capable of moving a spren off system any time soon. 2. Also soon is not now. We can't predict the state of Roshar at the end f book 5 (it could destroy for all we know. ) so we can't speculate on want they will or will not be able to do post RoW. Edited November 28, 2022 by bmcclure7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: If hoid and the Ghost bloods count as Roshar then "the ones above " count as Scadrial. Hoid and Ghostbloods are contemporary with Roshar, "Ones Above" are century or two ahead, so that is false equivalence. Additionally, the Skybreakers could have joined Ghostbloods after they were able to leave off-world, not because of it. Edit: Also, Kelsier still cannot leave Scadrial (else he could have intervened on Roshar branch), so Ghostbloods don't have the means to enable spren to leave system. Hence someone else has to do it. 47 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 1. Both The Ghost bloods and hoid have access to powers and knowledge that the Rosharians do not. We have know reason to believe that Roshar alone will be capable of moving a spren off system any time soon. And Roshar has access to knowledge (Kalak, possibly Ishar, Sibling, Stormlight Archive itself) and powers (unchained Bondsmithing) neither Hoid nor Ghostbloods have. And since moving spren off-world is specifically issue of Connection, Roshar is positioned far better to do something about it then Ghostbloods (no comment on Hoid, who knows about him). 47 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 2. Also soon is not now. We can't predict the state of Roshar at the end f book 5 (it could destroy for all we know. ) so we can't speculate on want they will or will not be able to do post RoW. If we are completely unwilling to speculate on state of Roshar 10 years in future, we should move the debate to known state of both planets at the same time, i.e. Roshar at RoW and Scadrial pre-AoL, so they are both contemporary. Edited November 28, 2022 by therunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, therunner said: Hoid and Ghostbloods are contemporary with Roshar, "Ones Above" are century or two ahead, so that is false equivalence. Additionally, the Skybreakers could have joined Ghostbloods after they were able to leave off-world, not because of it. Edit: Also, Kelsier still cannot leave Scadrial (else he could have intervened on Roshar branch), so Ghostbloods don't have the means to enable spren to leave system. Hence someone else has to do it. And Roshar has access to knowledge (Kalak, possibly Ishar, Sibling, Stormlight Archive itself) and powers (unchained Bondsmithing) neither Hoid nor Ghostbloods have. And since moving spren off-world is specifically issue of Connection, Roshar is positioned far better to do something about it then Ghostbloods (no comment on Hoid, who knows about him). If we are completely unwilling to speculate on state of Roshar 10 years in future, we should move the debate to known state of both planets at the same time, i.e. Roshar at RoW and Scadrial pre-AoL, so they are both contemporary. 1. The conquistadors were also contemporaries to the Aztec.  2. Maybe he could have, Or maybe hes not a skybreaker at all but a coin shot, Or someone from the new mythos planet.  It's supposed to be speculation based on Brandon Sanderson's writings. It's not speculation based on speculation.  3. Ishar is insane. And doesn't seem to be in the mood to share anything anytime soon. Kalak Can't even get himself off world. What makes you think he can get a Spren. 4. As of Rythm of war Dalinar cannot use his  powers to allow Spren  to move off world. If he learns later then maybe we can start this discussion over again but right now he can't.  5. Such discussions have already been had, This is supposed to be an update To that discussion for LM.   Were Comparing based on book equivalency not temporal equivalency. So its RoW to LM until book 5 then its book 5 to LM. 6. If you want to discuss roshar vs Scadrial at some earlier date and time,  Then you are free to start that topic in the regular cosmere discussion form. It's not what we're discussing here though. Edited November 28, 2022 by bmcclure7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 1. The conquistadors were also contemporaries to the Aztec. Ehm, yes. But as said before "Ones Above" are not contemporaries of Roshar at TLM, and are several centuries more advanced. Not sure what this argument is supposed to do. 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 2. Maybe he could have, Or maybe hes not a skybreaker at all but a coin shot, Or someone from the new mythos planet.  It's supposed to be speculation based on Brandon Sanderson's writings. It's not speculation based on speculation. It is a speculation based on the writing, Skybreakers are consistently characterized by interests in legality of their actions, now there is a mysterious group of people who can fly (and sink ships, which Coinshots would have trouble without equipment) who are interested in legality. They are also allied with a group (Ghostbloods) most of which are shown to be non-Scadrians. Presuming them to be Skybreakers (or enlightened version) is not a stretch. 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 3. Ishar is insane. And doesn't seem to be in the mood to share anything anytime soon. Ishar is insane, unless near perpendicularity or Radiant swearing Oath. The entire storyline of Szeth and Kaladin is based around getting his help. So sane Ishar is already in the mood to share, the difficulty is keeping him sane long enough. 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Kalak Can't even get himself off world. What makes you think he can get a Spren. Kalak lacks the ability to manipulate Connection himself, as he is not Bondsmith nor in possession of Bondsmith Honorblade. That does not preclude him from having theoretical knowledge that could be quickly tested by a Bondsmith, and modified if need be. He only had millenia to work on this problem. 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 4. As of Rythm of war Dalinar cannot use his  powers to allow Spren  to move off world. If he learns later then maybe we can start this discussion over again but right now he can't.  5. Such discussions have already been had, This is supposed to be an update To that discussion for LM.   Were Comparing based on book equivalency not temporal equivalency. So its RoW to LM until book 5 then its book 5 to LM. 6. If you want to discuss roshar vs Scadrial at some earlier date and time,  Then you are free to start that topic in the regular cosmere discussion form. It's not what we're discussing here though. If you look at the past pages of this thread, and the spiritual ancestor (post-RoW) thread, you would notice that most do in fact consider temporal equivalency. Both Roshar and Scadrial are moving fast at this stage in history, so difference in 10 years is considerable for competencies (e.g. Scadrial at RoW has no harmonium bombs, no H-T bombs, no ability to produce Atium even in miniscule amounts, very little electricity, no radios, no grenade launchers, no AA guns, no artillery, and only few basic machine guns). No one is arguing that Lightweavers or Elsecallers will be creating nuclear bombs from plutonium, or gamma lasers, we are merely extrapolating trends (e.g. number of Radiants), extending availability of some technologies that are already being created by RoW (flying platforms, fabrials) or assuming that often repeated issue will be resolved considering the resources available (unchained Bondsmiths, cooperative Heralds) and evidence that it is actually possible. Edited November 28, 2022 by therunner spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, therunner said: Ehm, yes. But as said before "Ones Above" are not contemporaries of Roshar at TLM, and are several centuries more advanced. Not sure what this argument is supposed to do. It is a speculation based on the writing, Skybreakers are consistently characterized by interests in legality of their actions, now there is a mysterious group of people who can fly (and sink ships, which Coinshots would have trouble without equipment) who are interested in legality. They are also allied with a group (Ghostbloods) most of which are shown to be non-Scadrians. Presuming them to be Skybreakers (or enlightened version) is not a stretch. Ishar is insane, unless near perpendicularity or Radiant swearing Oath. The entire storyline of Szeth and Kaladin is based around getting his help. So sane Ishar is already in the mood to share, the difficulty is keeping him sane long enough. Kalak lacks the ability to manipulate Connection himself, as he is not Bondsmith nor in possession of Bondsmith Honorblade. That does not preclude him from having theoretical knowledge that could be quickly tested by a Bondsmith, and modified if need be. He only had millenia to work on this problem. If you look at the past pages of this thread, and the spiritual ancestor (post-RoW) thread, you would notice that most do in fact consider temporal equivalency. Both Roshar and Scadrial are moving fast at this stage in history, so difference in 10 years is considerable for competencies (e.g. Scadrial at RoW has no harmonium bombs, no H-T bombs, no ability to produce Atium even in miniscule amounts, very little electricity, no radios, no grenade launchers, no AA guns, no artillery, and only few basic machine guns). No one is arguing that Lightweavers or Elsecallers will be creating nuclear bombs from plutonium, or gamma lasers, we are merely extrapolating trends (e.g. number of Radiants), extending availability of some technologies that are already being created by RoW (flying platforms, fabrials) or assuming that often repeated issue will be resolved considering the resources available (unchained Bondsmiths, cooperative Heralds) and evidence that it is actually possible. 1. No it's speculation, You're guessing, it maybe a good guess but still guess. Brandon sanderson has told us nothing on this topic, For all we know it could just be a coin shot with similar ideology. It's not like following the law It's a particularly unique or creative ideology. Who knows maybe he went to roshar was inspired. And your wrong about the post RoW discussion you forgetting the northerners. 2. Speculating About Roshar vs Scadrial post RoW (temporally) Is a fruitless endeavor.  1. Dalinar could be dead by the end of book 5 no more bondsmith unchained. 2. Honor could be United by the end of book 5. Which would also mean no bonds with unchained. 3. Roshar could be Is the capital of odium's intergalactic Empire full of super nukes. 4. Roshar could have been destroyed. Which case this debate is pointless Any one of these or a million more options could be possible. Change even one factor completely changes The outcome of this conflict.  If you want to talk temporary equivalency Then we shevel this topic till at least book 5 if not 6. Edited November 28, 2022 by bmcclure7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 1. No it's speculation, You're guessing, it maybe a good guess but still guess. Brandon sanderson has told us nothing on this topic, For all we know it could just be a coin shot with similar ideology. It's not like following the law It's a particularly unique or creative ideology. And equally people are speculating on the yield of the H-T bombs, despite us not having actually seen any. Or on mass-production of artillery, mass training of armies etc. Same way people speculated that Scadrial can use medallions for compounding, despite there not being evidence for it. 21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: And your wrong about the post RoW discussion your forgetting the northerners. Where and how am I forgetting northerners? 21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 2. Speculating About Roshar vs Scadrial post RoW (temporally) Is a fruitless endeavor.  1. Dalinar could be dead by the end of book 5 no more bondsmith unchained. 2. Honor could be United by the end of book 5. Which would also mean no bonds with unchained. 3. Roshar could be Is the capital of odium's intergalactic Empire full of super nukes. 4. Roshar could have been destroyed. Which case this debate is pointless Any one of these or a million more options could be possible. Change even one factor completely changes The outcome of this conflict. This argument renders most discussion pointless. Should we not have had discussion post RoW, since by this logic Bands of Mourning could have gotten lost, Wax could have slipped and died, Sazed could have splintered himself, volcano could have erupted wiping out Southerners, etc. We are always assuming and extrapolating, e.g. now it turns out that our previous assumptions about Hemalurgy were wrong, same for allomantic grenades etc. That is why after another books comes out we will have another round of discussion (if people will be interested), to update for new precise knowledge. 21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: If you want to talk temporary equivalency Then we shevel this topic till at least book 5 if not 6. I and others seemingly, are interested in talking temporal equivalency right now, acknowledging we are engaging in some measure of speculation (how wild it is is up to individual people to asses). You are of course free to not participate in it, and ignore those parts of discussion and lead parallel which does not assume temporal equivalency. Edited November 28, 2022 by therunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, therunner said: And equally people are speculating on the yield of the H-T bombs, despite us not having actually seen any. Or on mass-production of artillery, mass training of armies etc. Same way people speculated that Scadrial can use medallions for compounding, despite there not being evidence for it. Where and how am I forgetting northerners? This argument renders most discussion pointless. Should we not have had discussion post RoW, since by this logic Bands of Mourning could have gotten lost, Wax could have slipped and died, Sazed could have splintered himself, volcano could have erupted wiping out Southerners, etc. We are always assuming and extrapolating, e.g. now it turns out that our previous assumptions about Hemalurgy were wrong, same for allomantic grenades etc. That is why after another books comes out we will have another round of discussion (if people will be interested), to update for new precise knowledge. I and others seemingly, are interested in talking temporal equivalency right now, acknowledging we are engaging in some measure of speculation (how wild it is is up to individual people to asses). You are of course free to not participate in it, and ignore those parts of discussion and lead parallel which does not assume temporal equivalency. 1. That's exactly the point you didn't have this discussion post RoW We just appeared to because you forgot the northerners exist.  2. There is a big It's different from extrapolated that someone who Has guns might make more. And Extrapolating that dalinar ( Who is literally about to enter into a duel to the death by the way) Might be able to learn powers we don't even know he has.  We have no idea The limits of a bondsmith unchained, This might be beyond them. We don't even know of That connection is the key to getting Spren off roshar.  3. What exactly are the limits of this extrapolation. Does roshar get Full knights radiant orders Some of them over a 1000 strong? Does get all of 10 Greater fabrels? How about the dawn shards? 4. On the other side, How much can we extrapolate? Should we give them a fleet of Rockets carrying trillium super nukes? How about squads of the spiked? How about the aethers One of them already has an alliance with the ghost bloods after all?     Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said: 1. That's exactly the point you didn't have this discussion post RoW We just appeared to because you forgot the northerners exist. What do you mean? We had similar thread after RoW was released? And again, where did I forget Northerners exist? I have no idea what you are referencing here. 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:  We have no idea The limits of a bondsmith unchained, This might be beyond them. We don't even know of That connection is the key to getting Spren off roshar. Bondsmith unchained can (aided) teleport people across planets ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15849 ), unaided forcibly move spren to physical without bond and give them form (thought to be impossible), steal Nahel Bond, steal relationship with a Shard (as in the one where Odium considers Dalinar enemy), they could steal powers, breaths, allomancy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15348) and they could even forcibly bond a Shard to something (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15173) given enough Investiture. Melishi, the bondsmith that sealed Ba-Ado-Mishram was becoming unchained (they started seeing Connection lines near the end of their tenure), and whatever they did lobotomized entire race across the continent, and removed the most powerful Unmade from the board. So Bondmisths unchained can do pretty much anything regarding Connection, and more. It is kinda like Hemalurgy, but less staby and much more powerful and flexible in many ways. Also, we do know that getting spren off Roshar is question of Connection, please see the WoBs https://wob.coppermind.net/events/369/#e11688 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1474 ,  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/354/#e11369 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1537 (on Heralds, but it is the same principle). (And per some of these it is not necessarily hard, just tricky Vasher does know how to do it thought Investiture of Endowment could be less 'sticky'). 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:  3. What exactly are the limits of this extrapolation. Does roshar get Full knights radiant orders Some of them over a 1000 strong? Does get all of 10 Greater fabrels? How about the dawn shards? On previous pages I think you would find that typically Dawnshard (and intervention of Shards) are considered out-of-scope. Roshar would not necessarily get all 10 full Orders (unless we are considering both planets fully united), but they would have low thousands of Radiants, keeping with the progression and the large population of Spren. For Surge Fabrials, we are typically only considering those seen, so Soulcasters, and maybe some of Progression (thought those are apparently rare so they get ignored). 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said: 4. On the other side, How much can we extrapolate? Should we give them a fleet of Rockets carrying trillium super nukes? How about squads of the spiked? How about the aethers One of them already has an alliance with the ghost bloods after all? If we are considering at the time of TLM, we don't extrapolate much further for Scadrial, i.e. no new tech, or deeper integration of tech, but greater production sure and exploitation of known technology sure. We could make it more extrapolate, but even then fleet of H-T rockets would be impossible, because they don't have enough Trellium and no way to get more. Squads of spiked soldiers could be considered, but you lose Metalborn for each spike (the Set experiments were not successful in making spikes out of their methods), plus there is a limit at ~4-5 spikes per person, and no Compounding. There is one Aetherbound allied with Ghostbloods, not Aether directly, and we don't know how difficult it is to bond Aether or how many there are. There are not even WoBs on that, so even speculation is difficult. We could consider that one person definitely, and things they did. After SP we will have more information on Aethers, so that line of reasoning should be more open to speculation. All of the above is of course only my opinion on the reasonable extrapolation, others will surely have their own ideas. Edited November 28, 2022 by therunner spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ati16 Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: If hoid and the Ghost bloods count as Roshar then "the ones above " count as Scadrial. The Ghostbloods would count as Scadrial(if they do count at all), since their main tenet literally is protecting Scadrial from offworld dangers, unless we divide them into the Rosharan branch and the Scadrian branch. As for Hoid he would be impartial because he isn't from either planet, unless we divide things and people per location, then Hoid would probably count as Scadrial, because at the end of TLM he should be there(if anyone can ever keep track of him). 10 minutes ago, therunner said: Squads of spiked soldiers could be considered, but you lose Metalborn for each spike (the Set experiments were not successful in making spikes out of their methods), plus there is a limit at ~4-5 spikes per person, and no Compounding. Some metalborn like duralumin gnats are basically useless and only waste metal, but if they were used for hemalurgy there's much to gain. Also as Kelsier said there are always allomancers around who wouldn't be willing to cooperate like criminals. Also Scadrians can also use elderly and dying metalborn volunteers like Spook did, so there are ways to use hemalurgy with not wasting metalborn who might be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted November 28, 2022 Report Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ati16 said: Some metalborn like duralumin gnats are basically useless and only waste metal, but if they were used for hemalurgy there's much to gain. Also as Kelsier said there are always allomancers around who wouldn't be willing to cooperate like criminals. Also Scadrians can also use elderly and dying metalborn volunteers like Spook did, so there are ways to use hemalurgy with not wasting metalborn who might be useful. Sure, that would be a way. Even just by transferring the powers to combat capable (i.e. age-wise) people you could double the number of Metalborn that could go to combat. Clever combination of talents that are useless on their own (or could be considerably boosted) would also be a good application, A-duralumin being probably the prime example. Another option would be combining A-Electrum and F-zinc, to get closer to what Atium is like. Edited November 28, 2022 by therunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts