Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The wording of the question makes it to open ended to know what Brandon’s answer means. The questioner ask “if I hit the right bind point”, but the heart is the only bind point, so the answer is still yes.

As for Spook, here’s the text from the book.

It explicitly says that the spike pierced his heart.

There are multiple bind points in the heart.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

There are multiple bind points in the heart.

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

Weird. How do you even hit a nerve with a spike big enough to fill an eye socket? The mechanics are mind boggling. How do you pierce something that is 1μ wide with a railroad spike?

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Weird. How do you even hit a nerve with a spike big enough to fill an eye socket? The mechanics are mind boggling. How do you pierce something that is 1μ wide with a railroad spike?

Bro I have no idea.

You can also spike someone starting at conception, but don't even get me started on how you chose a bindpoint on a single cell.

Spoiler

Satsuoni

From which stage of development does human embryo on Scadrial gain Hemalurgic potential?

Brandon Sanderson

Conception.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Frustration

[BenduLuke]

After reading several pages of this topic I think something may be missing, but since I haven't read every post I might have missed seeing what I was thinking as reading.

Premis one. All Radiants are devoid of 2 of their main advantages in Shadesmar, Plate and Blade, regardless of oath level.

Premis two. The Ghostbloods would be able to give advanced warning in case of invasion and provide movement into and out of Shadesmar to Scadrial in addition to provideing additonal alies to them.

Premis three. The rosharan bond is not planet dependant, but character dependant, so it is reasonable to assume that Scadrians could bond Spren if their character was right for the particular Spren.

Since Scadrian weapons and tech are superior and can be brought to Shadesmar they could both break through a Rosharan blockage and decimate Rosharan forces even the Radiants all throughout Shadesmar, making the Elsecaller, Bondsmith type of strategy very unworkable. The Scadrians also have a ready suply of fuel for their metal art regardless where they go in the Cosmere meaning they can fight at near peak magical potential. Allomantic grenades would neutralize all the Radiants in a force requireing them to consume far more stormlight just to retain their abilities, and yes the Scadrians would know this from the Ghostbloods. It might not just be Trellium that could be used in conjunction to Harmonium to create WMD's (anti-investiture weapons would probably be a more appropriate term instead of Nuclear or anti-matter though with similar destructive potential). Since we saw that the Allomancers were able to consume and use alternate investiture in TLM, it is also reasonable to assume that all the metal born could fuel their powers with stormlight at a very high level giving them another advantage, and since Scadrians seem a little more highly invested than normal, exposure to stormlight might provide even a regular Scadrian enough additional investiture to activate their powers en mass, shifting the balance towards Scadrial in any combat engagement.

Rockets, Grenade launchers, grenades, bullets, vehicles, etc, which could all be brought to Shadesmar, would ovewhelm and destroy even KR's let alone any other regular troops. The rare twin combinations also add a wild card to the mix that could potentially be near unstoppable depending on the interactions. Wayne is just one example of the insane power a twin can have.

At this point my opinion is that Scadrial could win both an offensive and defensive war, but given the revelations in 6th of Dusk it seems as if there is not a clear victor between them. Instead a kind of balance of power, and cold war.

Oh one more thing Hemalurgy might also be able to steal Nahel bond in much the same manner that a Bondsmith can. 

As strong and resiliant as KRs are the idea of restraining them long enough to destroy them is still a workable strategy and one well within reach of the Scadrians.

[Kuldak]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Have you read Prime? There is no PoV of Braize. Nor are their any flashbacks from Taln.

I haven't read it, which is my bad on using a hypothetical from it, but that was only a hypothetical example. It really doesn't matter what the spoiler is, it could be a power, or ability, or name, or a place, or literally anything, none of which requires Taln to be around. Non-canon sources should not be used as the primary evidence to prop up theories, full stop. Do I personally think he will be dead by the end of SA5? No, but then again, I personally believe Dalinar is going to lose and that the radiants and possibly a large portion of the non-singer population are going to be refugees by the end of SA5.

 

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Trains are a bad analogy. It wouldn't be cost effective to have a train stop at everyone's home, and I doubt many people would want it.

As for availability, when Dalinar burned the Rift he said that most officers had one, and by RoW most enlisted men can afford to send messages with one. In ten more years I expect most people to have at least one.

Trains are a fine example, the whole point was that it wasn't cost effective for regular people, I purposefully chose an example that was wildly cost inefficient to further the point. The whole point was that the existence of an item or service that can be used by "regular folk" for a price does not mean that they can afford to outright own one on their own. A person with the means to outright purchase an item does so, and then supplements that cost by renting out usage of the item to people who can't afford to own one themselves, it's the entire basis of large chunks of our economy. This shouldn't even be something that is being argued.

The officers in Dalinar's army are nobles, of course they can afford them. That does nothing to prove that regular people will be able to afford them. To put a reminder of the scope of wealth inequality we are talking about, in WoK, Moash says that ~2 Emerald Broams, was "More money than I've ever seen," and his family were silversmiths in Kholinar, not what you would generally call a poor profession. Kaladin's father had a goblet of 100 diamond broams. It was a "small fortune" by their measure, an amount of money that secured Kaladin's future, and could pay for the travel, living expenses and years of training by world renown surgeons, quite literally a life changing amount of money for a family one step down from the highest caste a darkeyses can obtain. Shallan paid more than that for just 7 books at a random bookshop in Kharbranth.

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Which they weren't able to make until after Roshar had theirs.

Are you insinuating that Roshar's fabrial technology influenced Scadrial's technological development? Otherwise that has absolutely no baring on the discussion. Roshar has had thousands of years since their last civilization collapse, Scadrial has had a little over 300 years since theirs. The fact that Scadrial is only at best a few years behind Roshar on some discoveries (and decades to centuries if not more ahead in others) is astonishing, and shows why Autonomy is concerned with Scadrials rate of advancement.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Autonomy did most of it. In SoS Harmony says that the Basin should have radio by now and Wax has no idea what he's talking about. In BoM we see our first Radio, in the hands of the Set, and Wax has no idea what it is. In BoM Vendell mentions moving pictures, in TLM Marasi sees one, once again in the possession of The Set, and claims that is the first time she saw one. Later on Telsin says Autonomy is pushing her towards discovery, showing her the next steps in their development. And in the epilogue Kelsier says Autonomy shares technology with her people all the time.

I strongly doubt Autonomy "did most of it" it is contrary to Autonomy's whole philosophy to do that. What I think is much more likely is Telsin, or whoever was talking to Autonomy, was shown things that are possible, but not the actual mechanisms to do it. While it is by no means nothing, and shaves years off development from going down false paths, saying "you can use controlled explosions to propel objects hundreds of miles" is different than giving the chemical formula for rocket fuel, and blueprints for a rocket. The Set itself were not just Autonomy's puppets, they also had some of the top scientists dedicated to advancing their various projects. They weren't just handed the answers, otherwise why wouldn't they have completed the rockets? Are you saying that Autonomy just handed them aluminum weapons, radio, motion pictures, and hemalurgy, but then just forgot to give them the last chapter of "Rocket Science for Dummies?"

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Actually some were made by the guild in Theylanah, which is noted even by Navani as being important. And Navani isn't going to give up Fabrials.

Which is why I didn't say "all" my point still stands though 2 of the major nations behind the development of Fabrials are in no state to be furthering the development of fabrials. As for Navani, no she isn't going to give up Fabrials, but she is likely going to have to rethink how they develop fabrials. What if she were to discover that splitting gemstones, like for making spanreeds was literally torture for the spren inside, would that change how she moved forward? The Sibling sees fabrial science as exactly that, the imprisoning and torturing of spren, would Navani just disregard their opinion and continue on the same way she had been? Would the Sibling even remain bonded to her if that was the case? Like it or not, the Sibling's opinion on fabrials is going to have a large effect on the future of fabrial development.

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Radiants don't have power of their own, it comes through their spren, so it would require a duralumin spike to steel the bond.

I disagree with the semantics of this, but I don't feel it's worth starting yet another tangent on. So instead they use one of probably thousands of combinations of spikes/points that so thoroughly ruin someone's spirit web that it could not be repaired fast enough to keep them alive from the damage. The goal isn't to take a radiant's power to use for their own, the goal is to kill or otherwise disable the radiant. One thing all the hemalurgy explanations agree on, is that if not done correctly, it almost always causes devastating if not outright fatal results. What would happen if a Radiant were spiked into a Koloss, how would that affect their bond. What if their intelligence, strength or senses were spiked out, would that disable them long enough to completely kill them? Yes the wounds, even to their spirit web could potentially be healed to a degree, but it would take a lot of stormlight, and more importantly, time to recover.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

After reading several pages of this topic I think something may be missing, but since I haven't read every post I might have missed seeing what I was thinking as reading.

Ah you're back, the old guard are back together.

What took you so long I've been waiting for you.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since Scadrian weapons and tech are superior and can be brought to Shadesmar they could both break through a Rosharan blockage and decimate Rosharan forces even the Radiants all throughout Shadesmar, making the Elsecaller, Bondsmith type of strategy very unworkable.

Scadrial only has one perpendicularity, and with soulcasting being easier in the CR any lightweaver or Elsecaller could probably turn the entire scadrian force into smoke. Even metalborn would probably be vulnerable in the CR.

Not to mention that all Roshar has to do to lock Scadrial out of the CR altogether is to soulcast a massive stone block on top of Harmony's perpendicularity.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Allomantic grenades would neutralize all the Radiants in a force requireing them to consume far more stormlight just to retain their abilities,

That requires them to have leechers on hand which are really rare, in SoS there was only one in the entire Elendel constipulary, and maybe a few hundred in total.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It might not just be Trellium that could be used in conjunction to Harmonium to create WMD's (anti-investiture weapons would probably be a more appropriate term instead of Nuclear or anti-matter though with similar destructive potential).

It is nuclear, causing Harmonium to divide into Atium and Lerasium, even if most of the lerasium is destroyed in the reaction. I doubt anything other than Trellium could do it, but even if there was another shardmetal that could do it, it's not one the ones Scadrial has access to.

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since we saw that the Allomancers were able to consume and use alternate investiture in TLM, it is also reasonable to assume that all the metal born could fuel their powers with stormlight at a very high level giving them another advantage, and since Scadrians seem a little more highly invested than normal, exposure to stormlight might provide even a regular Scadrian enough additional investiture to activate their powers en mass, shifting the balance towards Scadrial in any combat engagement.

They were only able to use Identity-less Dor, not the regular kind. They had to purify it which was a difficult process as even the ghostbloods only had limited amounts of it. And that power won't give someone allomancy.

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Premis three. The rosharan bond is not planet dependant, but character dependant, so it is reasonable to assume that Scadrians could bond Spren if their character was right for the particular Spren.

And the Malwish Consortium could really easily be prompted into a war with Elendel Basin.

41 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

I haven't read it, which is my bad on using a hypothetical from it, but that was only a hypothetical example. It really doesn't matter what the spoiler is, it could be a power, or ability, or name, or a place, or literally anything, none of which requires Taln to be around. Non-canon sources should not be used as the primary evidence to prop up theories, full stop. Do I personally think he will be dead by the end of SA5? No, but then again, I personally believe Dalinar is going to lose and that the radiants and possibly a large portion of the non-singer population are going to be refugees by the end of SA5.

First off it literally says the spoilers are about Taln.

Second off, I have read WoK prime, and I can say with full confidence that there are only two potential spoilers,

Spoiler

Taln's personality, which I find unlikely, and his romance with Jasnah, which the WoB hint towards being the case.

Both of which require him to be alive.

44 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Trains are a fine example, the whole point was that it wasn't cost effective for regular people, I purposefully chose an example that was wildly cost inefficient to further the point. The whole point was that the existence of an item or service that can be used by "regular folk" for a price does not mean that they can afford to outright own one on their own. A person with the means to outright purchase an item does so, and then supplements that cost by renting out usage of the item to people who can't afford to own one themselves, it's the entire basis of large chunks of our economy. This shouldn't even be something that is being argued.

I'm not saying that as of RoW the average person could own one, what I am saying is that eight years ago the average person could not afford to send messages via spanreeds, but now they can. And ten years down the line they most likely will be able to own one.

45 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

The officers in Dalinar's army are nobles, of course they can afford them. That does nothing to prove that regular people will be able to afford them. To put a reminder of the scope of wealth inequality we are talking about, in WoK, Moash says that ~2 Emerald Broams, was "More money than I've ever seen," and his family were silversmiths in Kholinar, not what you would generally call a poor profession. Kaladin's father had a goblet of 100 diamond broams. It was a "small fortune" by their measure, an amount of money that secured Kaladin's future, and could pay for the travel, living expenses and years of training by world renown surgeons, quite literally a life changing amount of money for a family one step down from the highest caste a darkeyses can obtain. Shallan paid more than that for just 7 books at a random bookshop in Kharbranth.

Spheres aren't valued based on their rarity, for example the Alethi collecting dozens of gemhearts per month didn't lower the value of emerald broams. Their value is determined by what they make in soulcasting.

1 hour ago, Kuldak said:

Are you insinuating that Roshar's fabrial technology influenced Scadrial's technological development? Otherwise that has absolutely no baring on the discussion. Roshar has had thousands of years since their last civilization collapse, Scadrial has had a little over 300 years since theirs. The fact that Scadrial is only at best a few years behind Roshar on some discoveries (and decades to centuries if not more ahead in others) is astonishing, and shows why Autonomy is concerned with Scadrials rate of advancement.

I'm saying you're making judgements based on Scadrials current tech and Roshar's which is ten years back. And what does Scadrial have that is centuries ahead of Roshar?

1 hour ago, Kuldak said:

I strongly doubt Autonomy "did most of it" it is contrary to Autonomy's whole philosophy to do that. What I think is much more likely is Telsin, or whoever was talking to Autonomy, was shown things that are possible, but not the actual mechanisms to do it. While it is by no means nothing, and shaves years off development from going down false paths, saying "you can use controlled explosions to propel objects hundreds of miles" is different than giving the chemical formula for rocket fuel, and blueprints for a rocket. The Set itself were not just Autonomy's puppets, they also had some of the top scientists dedicated to advancing their various projects. They weren't just handed the answers, otherwise why wouldn't they have completed the rockets? Are you saying that Autonomy just handed them aluminum weapons, radio, motion pictures, and hemalurgy, but then just forgot to give them the last chapter of "Rocket Science for Dummies?"

If I gave you textbooks detailing all the principles of rocket science, and a group of people from 1820 how long would it take you to recreate the Appollo 11 mission?

1 hour ago, Kuldak said:

Which is why I didn't say "all" my point still stands though 2 of the major nations behind the development of Fabrials are in no state to be furthering the development of fabrials. As for Navani, no she isn't going to give up Fabrials, but she is likely going to have to rethink how they develop fabrials. What if she were to discover that splitting gemstones, like for making spanreeds was literally torture for the spren inside, would that change how she moved forward? The Sibling sees fabrial science as exactly that, the imprisoning and torturing of spren, would Navani just disregard their opinion and continue on the same way she had been? Would the Sibling even remain bonded to her if that was the case? Like it or not, the Sibling's opinion on fabrials is going to have a large effect on the future of fabrial development.

We know that splitting gems is not torturous as the spren show no indication of pain. And while Navani might be out she doesn't make any fabrials, she just provides funding and ideas. Both of which can easily be done by someone else.

1 hour ago, Kuldak said:

I disagree with the semantics of this, but I don't feel it's worth starting yet another tangent on. So instead they use one of probably thousands of combinations of spikes/points that so thoroughly ruin someone's spirit web that it could not be repaired fast enough to keep them alive from the damage. The goal isn't to take a radiant's power to use for their own, the goal is to kill or otherwise disable the radiant. One thing all the hemalurgy explanations agree on, is that if not done correctly, it almost always causes devastating if not outright fatal results. What would happen if a Radiant were spiked into a Koloss, how would that affect their bond. What if their intelligence, strength or senses were spiked out, would that disable them long enough to completely kill them? Yes the wounds, even to their spirit web could potentially be healed to a degree, but it would take a lot of stormlight, and more importantly, time to recover.

It's not semantics, it's cosmere principles. Metalborn's powers are tied to their souls, as are sandmasters, and possibly awakeners and elantrians. While others, namely Radiants and Aetherbound have no powers in their own soul, but get them via Conection.

And how are you going to accurately aim spikes from a gun? And if you aren't using a gun how are you getting in range without your eyes burning?

[Tglassy]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ah you're back, the old guard are back together.

What took you so long I've been waiting for you.

Scadrial only has one perpendicularity, and with soulcasting being easier in the CR any lightweaver or Elsecaller could probably turn the entire scadrian force into smoke. Even metalborn would probably be vulnerable in the CR.

Not to mention that all Roshar has to do to lock Scadrial out of the CR altogether is to soulcast a massive stone block on top of Harmony's perpendicularity.

Right.  Because these strategies obviously work against the CURRENT invading enemy.  Of course.  I forgot how Jasnah went into the CR during the big battle and just started turning the entire enemy army into smoke.  That was a great scene.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm saying you're making judgements based on Scadrials current tech and Roshar's which is ten years back. And what does Scadrial have that is centuries ahead of Roshar?

They have automatic weapons.  Roshar doesn't even have gunpowder.  They have trains.  Roshar still uses horse drawn carriages.  They have steam powered engines.  Roshar still thinks big sails are awesome.  They have electric lights.  Roshar relies on naturally occuring luminescence.  

Yes.  Scadrial is centuries ahead. 

The point that BenduLuke made about how Radiants have no plate or blade in the CR solidifies that if there were a war, Scadrial would dominate the CR, as Roshar's greatest advantages don't work there at all.  

I'm out of this conversation.  You aren't arguing in good faith at this point.  Your points lack logic, and you ignore the logic of your oponents.  You aren't actually arguing to determine who would win, you just want Roshar to win cause it's your fav.  Cause somehow fuedal spear weilders would take on modern weaponry.  Tell that to just about every nation that Britton conquered in the 1700s.  

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Right.  Because these strategies obviously work against the CURRENT invading enemy.  Of course.  I forgot how Jasnah went into the CR during the big battle and just started turning the entire enemy army into smoke.  That was a great scene.

Jasnah never fought people in the CR. Anything that is in the CR is easier to soulcast.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

They have automatic weapons.  Roshar doesn't even have gunpowder.

Because crem makes Saltpeter and sulfur difficult to access. I doubt they even have sulfur deposits.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

They have trains.  Roshar still uses horse drawn carriages.

Crem would ruin train tracks, not to mention that the natural terrain of Roshar is too uneven for trains.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

They have steam powered engines.  Roshar still thinks big sails are awesome.

And steam engines take what a few decades to implement at most? Not to mention fabrial engines,  which I have designed several given current fabrials.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Roshar relies on naturally occuring luminescence.  

Stormlight is superior to electric lighting in every possible way.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Yes.  Scadrial is centuries ahead. 

Really? Roshar has instantaneous communication, Scadrial still thinks Light is fast. Heavier than air powered flight, which is beyond half of Scadrial anyway. Dehumidifiers, anti-inveatiture(which is more powerful than anti-matter) weapons, when Scadrial has a limited number of nuclear grade+ weapons that they can't replace. Fabrials that manipulate gravity, fabrials that detect when people are getting close when Scadrial barely has cameras.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

The point that BenduLuke made about how Radiants have no plate or blade in the CR solidifies that if there were a war, Scadrial would dominate the CR, as Roshar's greatest advantages don't work there at all. 

No they won't.

Scadrial has a single access point to the CR, and they lack the ability to make food or supplies there, can't make a perpendicularity to enter the PR in their desired location, lack the ability to peer into the CR from the PR. Etc.

And that's not to mention that Scadrial has no way to transport troops in large numbers through their CR as they have nothing that floats on the mists.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

You aren't arguing in good faith at this point.  Your points lack logic, and you ignore the logic of your oponents.

You have no sources for half of your claims, and ignore the claims supported by the evidence brought against you.

Logical claims made by my opponents have been acknowledged, sourcesless claims that have more snark than logic have been soundly debunked.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

You aren't actually arguing to determine who would win, you just want Roshar to win cause it's your fav.

Oh? And you know that how?

Sel and Nalthis would both destroy Roahar in a 1 on 1 fight. Scadrial is just the weakest of the major shardworlds, and by a lot.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Cause somehow fuedal spear weilders would take on modern weaponry.  Tell that to just about every nation that Britton conquered in the 1700s.  

Except they have advanced technology, magic powers far beyond Brittan's comprehension, and far more natural advantages. Not to mention that Scadrial isn't half as advanced, or as mobile as Brittan was.

And again I refer you to the Zulu tribe, a bunch of ordinary, non-magical spearmen who almost beat the Brittish forces.

[Kuldak]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Right.  Because these strategies obviously work against the CURRENT invading enemy.  Of course.  I forgot how Jasnah went into the CR during the big battle and just started turning the entire enemy army into smoke.  That was a great scene.

Clearly you're forgetting about the magical 10 year gap in which the radiants gain hundreds of 4th ideal members, everyone masters their powers beyond even what the old orders could do, and Dalinar and Navani become Bondsmith Santa and Mrs. Claus, delivering free fabrials and unlimited stormlight to all the good little boys and girls of Roshar. 

 

On a more serious note, I agree, this conversation is getting pointless, and filling with more and more bad faith arguments (on each side in all fairness). At the end of the day, Roshar can't get stormlight or radiants off world by the TLM (confirmed by WoB). Without them Roshar has no chance at all of beating Scadrial off world, even discounting any and all metalborn. Automatic weapons and artillery would tear through their armies, it would be a massacre. 

Scadrial on the other hand would struggle just dealing with the environment of Roshar. Hurricane level storms hitting their army and supply lines every 10 or so days on what is essentially an entirely stone landscape, is not something they would really be ready or capable of handling for purposes of an invasion. They would almost certainly retreat before ever even engaging Roshar's armies. 

 

There we have it, no side can successfully invade the other, and any fight off-system goes to Scadrial because Roshar has no radiant/fabrial assistance. Glad this is over now.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

At the end of the day, Roshar can't get stormlight or radiants off world by the TLM (confirmed by WoB).

Ask the Nightwatcher for the ability.

[Chaos]

Unfortunately, it seems that discourse here has gotten to a place where we must close this thread. It is upsetting that people seem incapable of being respectful, despite disagreements.

I would strongly recommend many of you check out our Code of Conduct: 

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Quote

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