Worldhopper Identification

[stonehand Noble]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:37 PM, teknopathetic said:

we have the possible Horneater refugee population in the epilogue hinting at more mass movement or more normalized travel 

wait what? I finished the book last night and somehow missed this entirely!

[teknopathetic Dawnsinger]

2 hours ago, stonehand said:

wait what? I finished the book last night and somehow missed this entirely!

It isn’t confirmed exactly. But MeiLaan sees a munch of red haired people that Harmony sent her tot go help. People think those are likely Horneaters. 

[TheCollector Ardent]

56 minutes ago, stonehand said:

wait what? I finished the book last night and somehow missed this entirely!

I feel that. It was in the MeLaan epilogue, while she was sailing through Shadesmar. I heard red hair and thought, 'oh who could they be?' Racked my brains and couldn't think of anything. Makes sense though. 

[marching_miner Skaa]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:50 AM, AndrolGenhald said:

• An unknown Seon

Chapter 40, Kelsier: "Codenames, you take Dae-oh and see to it." 

According to Coppermind, Dao is the Aon representing Stability and Security. Fitting for the group dedicated to protecting Scadrial.

[Milk Noble-Blooded]

On 17/11/2022 at 2:50 PM, Trutharchivist said:

Kelsier, in most places outside Scadrial, leads something that can easily be seen as a criminal organization.

Skybreakers can choose to follow the codes of a criminal organization. Besides, Nale's group of Skybreakers is also an underground organization.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

On 17.11.2022 at 7:37 PM, robardin said:

...well, maybe it's not so unrealistic for eight refugee Skybreakers from Roshar, heretofore without their Surgebinding while adopting local identities in Elendel after joining the Ghostbloods, to show up and be able to fly without Stormlight glowing.

Unfortunately it would. One Rosharan, who might be short for a Rosharan, in a group would not be overly odd. Eight people with alien facial features and most over 2m tall in a group? You might just as well wearing a sign claiming to be foreign. Steris is not stupid.

 

[IndigoAjah Dakhor Monk]

Radiants glow presumably because they are using Stormlight, which obviously glows.

 

Radiants using another source of Investiture probably wouldn't glow imo.

 

 

 

 

 

[IndigoAjah Dakhor Monk]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Unfortunately it would. One Rosharan, who might be short for a Rosharan, in a group would not be overly odd. Eight people with alien facial features and most over 2m tall in a group? You might just as well wearing a sign claiming to be foreign. Steris is not stupid.

 

Isn't she also not a person-focussed person, unless she's actively trying to be?

My experience with both myself and other people on the autistic spectrum is that it's a relatively common trait to not pick up social cues but also notice personal differences when something else is there to focus attention on.

[Milk Noble-Blooded]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Eight people with alien facial features and most over 2m tall in a group?

That would be the case if they were all Rosharan. I think it's more likely that only one of them is a full Radiant—who doesn't even need to be a Rosharan—and the rest are squires. I doubt that the Ghostbloods got that many highspren to join.

[Isilel Dakhor Monk]

12 minutes ago, Milk said:

I think it's more likely that only one of them is a full Radiant—who doesn't even need to be a Rosharan—and the rest are squires. 

From what we have seen, Skybreakers only get 1 or 2 squires apiece. Windrunners are the ones who have lots of squires due to their resonance.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

40 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Isn't she also not a person-focussed person, unless she's actively trying to be?

My experience with both myself and other people on the autistic spectrum is that it's a relatively common trait to not pick up social cues but also notice personal differences when something else is there to focus attention on.

That takes specialised knowledge to answer. Factually I have to point out that she noticed the symbol.

35 minutes ago, Milk said:

That would be the case if they were all Rosharan. I think it's more likely that only one of them is a full Radiant—who doesn't even need to be a Rosharan—and the rest are squires. I doubt that the Ghostbloods got that many highspren to join.

Why? If the war on Roshar really ends with a victory of the Knights Radiant, the Highspren fighting on the other side may have a problem. And if you are really forced into exile as a spren, you have a problem. Other subastrals do not have large communities of sapient cognitive entities. Nor do they get a supply of Stormlight to manifest stuff from traders next door. If you want to live in civilization and stay sapient, it means bonding.

[Milk Noble-Blooded]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

From what we have seen, Skybreakers only get 1 or 2 squires apiece.

Not really? We see two full Skybreakers with twenty squires while Szeth is training, so seven squires isn't all that much.

[robardin Bondsmith]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Unfortunately it would. One Rosharan, who might be short for a Rosharan, in a group would not be overly odd. Eight people with alien facial features and most over 2m tall in a group? You might just as well wearing a sign claiming to be foreign. Steris is not stupid.

Yeah, that was one of the reasons for my original instinct rejecting those guys as being Skybreakers. "How would they be living undercover in Elendel as sleeper agents?"

I was however allowing for the counter-points, that they could be flying on Dor not Stormlight, and could be similar refugees or escapees (...or agents?) from Roshar the way we see suggestions of a new Iriali presence, plus mention of something having happened on Roshar, and the MeLaan epilogue hinting at a large mass of "lost" Horneaters in Shadesmar.

As for being noticeably Rosharan in height, looks, etc., the counter-point would be that nobody said they had to be Alethi Skybreakers?

[TheoreticalMagic Grand]

Well tossing this out there to consider, in regards to the appearances/facial features/etc....

If there are Rosharan Skybreakers among the Ghostbloods, who says they're the only Rosharans in the group? Any Knights Radiant who aligned themselves with the Ghostbloods and their purposes wouldn't necessarily be beholden to the same divisions and conflict that exist between say, the majority of Skybreakers on Roshar and the other Orders. 

For instance....Shallan was offered a position in the Ghostbloods, and while we know she turned them down....who's to say that other Knights or Surgebinders with Illumination didn't join the group at some point?

And if those Skybreakers happened to have a Lightweaver companion, near enough by that they could attach illusions to their faces before they went on a mission on a world that hasn't officially had widespread First Contact and thus required a degree of discretion....that could resolve the appearance issue quite handily.

[teknopathetic Dawnsinger]

1 hour ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well tossing this out there to consider, in regards to the appearances/facial features/etc....

If there are Rosharan Skybreakers among the Ghostbloods, who says they're the only Rosharans in the group? Any Knights Radiant who aligned themselves with the Ghostbloods and their purposes wouldn't necessarily be beholden to the same divisions and conflict that exist between say, the majority of Skybreakers on Roshar and the other Orders. 

For instance....Shallan was offered a position in the Ghostbloods, and while we know she turned them down....who's to say that other Knights or Surgebinders with Illumination didn't join the group at some point?

And if those Skybreakers happened to have a Lightweaver companion, near enough by that they could attach illusions to their faces before they went on a mission on a world that hasn't officially had widespread First Contact and thus required a degree of discretion....that could resolve the appearance issue quite handily.

I mean for all we know Shallan changed her mind about the Ghostbloods and was standing right there in disguise next to Steris

[Frustration Sliver]

3 hours ago, Milk said:

Not really? We see two full Skybreakers with twenty squires while Szeth is training, so seven squires isn't all that much.

Those aren't their squires though. Those are all of the squires the Skybreakers have.

[Trutharchivist King's Tester]

10 hours ago, Milk said:

Skybreakers can choose to follow the codes of a criminal organization. Besides, Nale's group of Skybreakers is also an underground organization.

All true. But: a. Nale's Skybreakers still adhere to local laws, to the level that when Lift is pardoned Nale refuses to kill her, even though he believes this will save the world. If an officer of the law asked him a question, and it was illegal in this country to hide information from officers of the law... He'd probably abuse his situation as constable himself to avoid answering, but if that's illegal he'll answer. His underlings... Well, it's true that they disagree.

The real issue I see is the one I mentioned in the post you quoted. If they are Skybreakers that took Ghostblood laws as theirs - then they shouldn't care about what's legal; if they care about what's legal - withholding information from an officer of the law is illegal in many places, I would assume Elendel included. They are required to keep a blind eye to their fellow Ghostbloods' illegal activities.

Option three will be that they took their third ideal at obeying Kell. In that case, their second Ideal requires them to seek justice, their third - to follow the Ghostblood code. When those two collide they probably go with the third, but in this case - it wasn't completely clear that the Ghostblood code required them to act this way. I'd have argued otherwise, but it's clear that Kelsier himself didn't order them to destroy the ships - Kaise told them he asked them to help Steris, and Steris asked them to sink the ships. Maybe they saw it as too many levels, and thus made sure it was legal. Maybe.

[FollowYourMuse Gyorn]

WOB on the possible skybreakers that assist Steris.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509-youtube-spoiler-stream-5/#e15986
 

Spoiler

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case.

Adam Horne

That makes sense, because Hoid is weird.

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

...

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

 

[offer Oldblood]

Maraga also mention "bug men" as an example of "whimsical story" in chapter 33 - Prabably a reference to sleepless (originally I thought this is unlikely but some freinds convinced me thi sounds to close to be a coincidence). 

[JustQuestin2004 High Prelan]

On 15/12/2022 at 0:25 PM, FollowYourMuse said:

WOB on the possible skybreakers that assist Steris.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509-youtube-spoiler-stream-5/#e15986
 

  Hide contents

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case.

Adam Horne

That makes sense, because Hoid is weird.

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

...

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

 

Interesting that he said 'you can go to Braize or Ashyn', does this mean that if a Radiant went to Ashyn somehow, then they wouldn't be far enough to lose their powers?

[Milk Noble-Blooded]

1 minute ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Interesting that he said 'you can go to Braize or Ashyn', does this mean that if a Radiant went to Ashyn somehow, then they wouldn't be far enough to lose their powers?

Mraize actually mentions this in Chapter 13 of RoW, saying that Radiants and spren (among others) "cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize." Not sure about the ten gas giants in the Rosharan System.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

On 17.12.2022 at 11:32 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Interesting that he said 'you can go to Braize or Ashyn', does this mean that if a Radiant went to Ashyn somehow, then they wouldn't be far enough to lose their powers?

Presumably you will not lose your powers, if you can make it work. That is a specifically Selish thing. You physically cannot leave being pulled back.

[JustQuestin2004 High Prelan]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Presumably you will not lose your powers, if you can make it work. That is a specifically Selish thing. You physically cannot leave being pulled back.

So if you have a Selish Art like AonDor, then you can leave Sel but you lose your powers, but if you're a Surgebinder then you can't actually leave Roshar at all? I thought you just lost your Connection to your Spren.

I think I remember Mraize saying something about this but I can't remember the exact wording.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So if you have a Selish Art like AonDor, then you can leave Sel but you lose your powers,

Yes. We have seen numerous Selish worldhoppers. They are the largest group. And you lose most of your powers. Elantrians seem to have some "passive" powers, which they retain.

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

but if you're a Surgebinder then you can't actually leave Roshar at all?

Technically I would have to answer that we do not know, as we don't know whether the bearer of Yelig Nar or somebody who spiked the Surgebinding out of a Fused can leave, but neither the Knights Radiant nor the Fused can leave without special techniques. We have seen Hoid in The Lost Metal, so you can leave if you know the trick, but by default you cannot leave the Rosharan system. Ashyn and Braize can be reached.

Generically speaking this is interesting because apparently everybody else can just leave and retains their powers.

 

[11thHerald Spearman]

I also don't think Moonlight is Shai from Emperor's Soul. It sounds to me like she's relatively unpracticed with the Essence Mark for herself, which doesn't really fit with the Shai of the short story. I think it's more likely that Moonlight is a student of Shai or that Shai founded a school/subsect of Essence Markers which Moonlight is part of.