Is 'Controlled' Savantism a thing?

[JustQuestin2004]

I recall a particular WOB (Which I can't bloody find on the Arcanum) that compared Savantism to the Nahel Bond and called Savantism 'Uncontrolled'.

So I'm wondering if it were plausible that there would be a way to 'Control' Allomantic Savantism, gaining more of the benefits with less of the extreme downsides. Like controlling the extreme tin-savantism so that your tin-senses would be greatly enhanced while leaving your regular the same?

Basically what I'm asking is would it be possible to cheat Savantism.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I recall a particular WOB (Which I can't bloody find on the Arcanum) that compared Savantism to the Nahel Bond and called Savantism 'Uncontrolled'.

So I'm wondering if it were plausible that there would be a way to 'Control' Allomantic Savantism, gaining more of the benefits with less of the extreme downsides. Like controlling the extreme tin-savantism so that your tin-senses would be greatly enhanced while leaving your regular the same?

Basically what I'm asking is would it be possible to cheat Savantism.

I think you mean one of these WoBs (or may be conflating them into one in your memory when they were separate entries):

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

 

Quote

Questioner 1

Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device?

Brandon Sanderson

All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant.

Questioner 1

So they are protected from being turned into--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight].

Quote

Questioner

We know that Soulcaster savants exist and Radiants are protected by the Nahel bond but not immune to becoming one. Can all Surges cause becoming a savant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they could.

 

The thing is: Wax is displaying what you are talking about (Savant-like ability without the extreme side effects ref: Steel bubble and splitting steelsight lines into multiples per object not pointed to the object's center of mass) and that is a problem according to Sanderson. The lack of flaws is an incorrect representation of Savantism (or at least its original intent).

[JustQuestin2004]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think you mean one of these WoBs (or may be conflating them into one in your memory when they were separate entries):

  Hide contents

 

 

The thing is: Wax is displaying what you are talking about (Savant-like ability without the extreme side effects ref: Steel bubble and splitting steelsight lines into multiples per object not pointed to the object's center of mass) and that is a problem according to Sanderson. The lack of flaws is an incorrect representation of Savantism (or at least its original intent).

Isn't the Steelbubble just his Resonance and the 'Splitting lines' thing just a skill based thing?

I'm pretty sure Brandon backtracked on the Steelbubble being caused by Savantism.

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm pretty sure Brandon backtracked on the Steelbubble being caused by Savantism.

Yes, that's what the first WoB was about (I excerpted the part applied to your post, but the whole thing is available from the link). The Steel bubble was meant to be a sign of Savantism . . . but:

Spoiler

Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

 

[JustQuestin2004]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Yes, that's what the first WoB was about (I excerpted the part applied to your post, but the whole thing is available from the link). The Steel bubble was meant to be a sign of Savantism . . . but:

  Hide contents

Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

 

So Brandon is going to be mostly downplaying Savantism for characters who aren't defined by it?

I guess that makes sense.

Still as interesting as this topic is do you have any theories on how to potentially cheat Savantism? Gaining greater power without such a horrible cost like with Spook?

My guess (aside from divine intervention because that's cheating) would be fine manipulation of the spiritweb, perhaps through Forgery? Probably not because having the benefits without the downside isn't a very plausible lie.

Actually could Forgery bestow the effects of Savantism? Like making a Slider temporarily a Savant so they could anchor their Speedbubble to themselves and pull a Bullet-time?

I suppose that might be a possibility that would be easier than making someone a Metalborn, as you'djust have to improve what you're working with instead of working from scratch.

[Treamayne]

30 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I guess that makes sense.

Still as interesting as this topic is do you have any theories on how to potentially cheat Savantism? Gaining greater power without such a horrible cost like with Spook?

The answer was above: Act like Wax Ladrian - use the metal enough in practice and practical applications that you develop new techniques (same as Kelsier in TFE being able to push/pull on the ends of the bars while fighting the inquisitor to make them spin but not push/pull away) but not flare it so much that you actually descend into becoming a Savant that is "addicted" to the metal.

Min/Maxing theories (Savants, Hemalurgy, etc.), like a game, disturb me. These are stories and Sanderson's Second Law* applies. I am much more interested in increased nuance than increased power. For example: could Wax learn to tap weight only to specific part of his body? Imagine making just your fist double-weight for a fraction of a second during a punch? Is that all in the subconscious command used when tapping or would that only be possible by a Savant?

• Spoiler

  Coppermind summary: The limitations of a magic system are more interesting than its capabilities. What the magic can't do is more interesting than what it can.

   

Edited November 15, 2022 by Treamayne

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Actually could Forgery bestow the effects of Savantism? Like making a Slider temporarily a Savant so they could anchor their Speedbubble to themselves and pull a Bullet-time?

On the one hand, WOB says Hemalurgy cannot transfer the effects of Savantism, so it's likely that Forgery cannot impart it either.  On the other hand, Forgery affects the whole Spiritweb instead of just a piece so perhaps it could include the Warping of the spiritweb that is Savantism.  You'd probably need divine intervention or some sort of Fortune/precognition/Spiritual Realm hoodoo to be able to even hope to design such a Stamp, but as long as the savantism doesnt require the external Power as part of it (which is likely the case with Tin and several other Allomancy examples) then it might get there.

 

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Min/Maxing theories (Savants, Hemalurgy, etc.), like a game, disturb me. These are stories and Sanderson's Second Law* applies. I am much more interested in increased nuance than increased power. For example: could Wax learn to tap weight only to specific part of his body? Imagine making just your fist double-weight for a fraction of a second during a punch? Is that all in the subconscious command used when tapping or would that only be possible by a Savant?

•   Hide contents

  Coppermind summary: The limitations of a magic system are more interesting than its capabilities. What the magic can't do is more interesting than what it can.

   

For what it's worth, I dont consider this Min/Max'ing like it's a game, I see it as anticipating the eventual cosmere-wide Scientific Investiture Arms Race that I think will be inevitable in Era4 (or really Era 3 which is more contemporary to our Earth level science). So when I think of "What could Hemalurgy Plus Forgery Do together?" Im thinking of it in the context of a focused and funded worldhopper Manhattan Project type of development push (by the Ghostbloods or others).  So I generally default to questions like What could they do with these systems if they had modern computers and whole Universities of scholars researching it, rather than teaching it (or more often figuring it out themselves) one-by-one like it's a secret Kung Fu art.  That leads to like what could hemalurgy do if they found a way to map all the Bind Points of the Spiritweb in a non-destructive and/or morally acceptable way (perhaps using Lifeless), and turned it into a clinical, Surgical practice as part of their concept of the the Medical Profession?  Then what happens when the unscrupulous put that knowledge to use in dramatic ways?