Long Game 91: A Fresh Start in Shinovar

[Amanuensis]

33 minutes ago, Chantara said:

Nice to meet you too! 
 

I was trying to look at it from an outside perspective as if I was just reading my own alignment from another player POV. 
 

tbh last night was the first night I used the blade. I wasn’t sure how it worked per se, and who’s to say I didn’t protect my top village read. I didn’t say anything about who else I protected. Just that I definitely shielded myself. It also just sounded more efficient to protect 2 people from potential scans than one person from getting killed when my chances of hitting the right person were extremely slim. 

I guess I don't exactly see the V!mindset behind looking at yourself from an outside perspective.  You know your alignment, no? Why give other people reasons to vote you and not defend yourself, especially with us being potentially close to exlo? Also, why did you "expect" there to be more substantial reasons for Araris to suspect you? If you're village, should you not expect to be village read (or expect nothing)?

I can kinda maybe understand that last-minute logic leading to a misplay, but even then... idk. Protection from scans, roleblocks, and vote manipulations favors elims a lot more than villagers imo. Especially compared to a Doctor role. Even if the chances of successfully blocking a kill are extremely slim, I think most villagers would agree trying is always worth the risk. A correct block is very often game-winning.

ED1T:

@Ookla the Paragrapher

Would like your thoughts since you're currently voting for JNV. Chantara isn't denying using Illumination over Progression, as JNV has pointed out, which means JNV is either telling the truth or they're partnered. Personally, I never really learned how to read JNV and basically default v!lean them for being so fun to have around, but atm I'm comfortable with trusting my vibe-dar.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Ookla the Remembered

[Archer]

2 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I'm living in a world with 5 total elims. Which means that there will be minimum of 2 left after today. Also, I'm pretty sure they have a protect blade. So I think we don't want Chana to claim still, and I'm doing my best to avoid dumping so much info that it becomes obvious to the elims who they are.

Edit: Not to mention that they get Kalak for the Night as well.

I couldn't make 5 work with my clears so I've been rolling with a guess of 4. Is assuming the elims have a protection blade an educated guess? It looks like you received an info dump from Kas you could have sat on/pretended you didn't have a PM to receive it through, so I'll ignore the Coinshot theory and trust you for that to make my life easier. 

Let me know if I'm following this correctly.

Chantara acquired Illwei's blade. A prudent elim team would pass on a few but take the ones with utility, like this one. Chantara then used it to block themselves and another person from being scanned. This would prevent the elim kill from being visible. 

@Chantara who did you think was worth protecting from scans (but not from kills)?

JNV volunteered that their scan action was, after some clarification, blocked by Chantara's. E!JNV doesn't scan e!Chantara or put them in the position of having to discuss this.

v!JNV looks more likely because they volunteered this first with little reason to think it'd help them, while Chantara has had very analytical responses. 

 

I thought I had a not e-e interaction between Stick and Chantara to share, but if you look at the end of D3 where Stick says (paraphrased) 'what if we instead vote Chantara' then Chantara says 'yada yada oh Stick's voting me? Forget this, Stick'. I remembered the vote having been edited in, but it wasn't. Making that interaction look more like a planned conversation to give Chantara a reason to vote Stick. 

 

If we flip e!Chantara, that means v!JNV. Which means Stick got no help D3. I dispute Silh's suggestion that they'd fight to the end because Stick was in a rut and their vote came with only 4 hours to go. Functional EoD, at least for them, so that's when you bus. (I'm open to thinking about them not being evil, but then who are the other elims?? Tani/Turtle?)

v!JNV negates my best reason for voting Turtle: they shifted attention to Cash D4 away from JNV. But there's other stuff there we can litigate tomorrow. 

I still trust Elk for being a well researched Stick target

 

I don't like voting people out of the blue, but now that more information has been shared, I'm willing to get behind JNV Chantara. I just ask that next time you work on your case presentation next time, Araris. :P.

 

 

Edit: if you pick up Chantara's blade after this, stay quiet about it and protect Araris. Either an elim will get it and we'll know an elim got it because Araris died, or a villager will get it and protect our repository of information

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Paragrapher

[Amanuensis]

On that note I backread from D3 on and thought Turtle's start of D4 was villagery. I really liked how they questioned Tani's V!read of them, in particular. Seems weird for an elim to call out a villager for giving them too easy of a pass. Didn't feel like wolf theater to me either.

[Araris Valerian]

59 minutes ago, Ookla the Paragrapher said:

I just ask that next time you work on your case presentation next time, Araris. :P.

Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing any info reveal this turn, but it felt like a good way to get Aman into the discussion and I also am confused enough that I wanted a more mechanically based exe, which I could only convince anyone of by listing some things. I drafted like 3 different things before what I ended up doing, clearly I needed a few more drafts .

 

[Chantara]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

I guess I don't exactly see the V!mindset behind looking at yourself from an outside perspective.  You know your alignment, no? Why give other people reasons to vote you and not defend yourself, especially with us being potentially close to exlo? Also, why did you "expect" there to be more substantial reasons for Araris to suspect you? If you're village, should you not expect to be village read (or expect nothing)?

I guess I was trying to understand how/why Araris would see me as an elim when it hadn’t really been discussed before in thread. I had hoped if I became a target for an exe the accusers would have something more substantial and evidence they’d pull from thread. Idk why. I don’t usually put that much thought into my votes.

Now that I’ve had a few minutes to step away and not just gut reacting, I realize putting out my thoughts as to why I was being read elim was probably not the smartest of moves, but it’s already done. Oh well. 
 

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59 minutes ago, Ookla the Paragrapher said:

@Chantara who did you think was worth protecting from scans (but not from kills)?

 

I just picked someone at random. It doesn’t really matter. And as to why Illumination, I wanted to make sure I was safe from attacks that would steal my blade, so the elim’s couldn’t get it. But I also didn’t know who else had a blade so I just hoped I would also protect a villager who had one. 
 

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Paragrapher said:

I thought I had a not e-e interaction between Stick and Chantara to share, but if you look at the end of D3 where Stick says (paraphrased) 'what if we instead vote Chantara' then Chantara says 'yada yada oh Stick's voting me? Forget this, Stick'. I remembered the vote having been edited in, but it wasn't. Making that interaction look more like a planned conversation to give Chantara a reason to vote Stick. 

 

I realize now it wasn’t clear. I was in the middle of writing up the post when I saw Stick’s post. I didn’t want to delete everything I’d just written, so you got my raw reaction. Not sorry.

 

there was something else I was going to respond to, but I can’t find it now. I’ll make another post if I find it again. 

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[Amanuensis]

36 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing any info reveal this turn, but it felt like a good way to get Aman into the discussion and I also am confused enough that I wanted a more mechanically based exe, which I could only convince anyone of by listing some things. I drafted like 3 different things before what I ended up doing, clearly I needed a few more drafts .

Much appreciated o7

25 minutes ago, Chantara said:

I guess I was trying to understand how/why Araris would see me as an elim when it hadn’t really been discussed before in thread. I had hoped if I became a target for an exe the accusers would have something more substantial and evidence they’d pull from thread. Idk why. I don’t usually put that much thought into my votes.

Now that I’ve had a few minutes to step away and not just gut reacting, I realize putting out my thoughts as to why I was being read elim was probably not the smartest of moves, but it’s already done. Oh well. 
 

I just picked someone at random. It doesn’t really matter. And as to why Illumination, I wanted to make sure I was safe from attacks that would steal my blade, so the elim’s couldn’t get it. But I also didn’t know who else had a blade so I just hoped I would also protect a villager who had one. 
 

I realize now it wasn’t clear. I was in the middle of writing up the post when I saw Stick’s post. I didn’t want to delete everything I’d just written, so you got my raw reaction. Not sorry.

 

there was something else I was going to respond to, but I can’t find it now. I’ll make another post if I find it again. 

TBH I wasn't convinced myself by Araris' initial presentation, just wanted to add some weight to his vote and see what shook out. Then the JNV claim thing happened. I guess the crux of my problem is using Illumination over Progression, if I disregard the one post that made my gut-bells jingle. I find it really hard to reconcile that with a Villager, but I guess if you're on the newer side it's not as damning as I initially perceived.

I guess I have two questions (first for you, second for everyone else):

1. What's your mafia experience like? Have you played a lot of games in the last 9 months or are you an expat from MU? If not, how many do you have under your belt?
2. Would anyone have used Illumination over Progression in Chantara's shoes? @Ookla the Debonair @Araris Valerian @Ookla the Implosion @InfiniteInsanity @Elkanah

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Remembered

[JNV]

25 minutes ago, Chantara said:

I just picked someone at random. It doesn’t really matter. And as to why Illumination, I wanted to make sure I was safe from attacks that would steal my blade, so the elim’s couldn’t get it. But I also didn’t know who else had a blade so I just hoped I would also protect a villager who had one. 

3 hours ago, Chantara said:

tbh last night was the first night I used the blade. I wasn’t sure how it worked per se, and who’s to say I didn’t protect my top village read. I didn’t say anything about who else I protected. Just that I definitely shielded myself. It also just sounded more efficient to protect 2 people from potential scans than one person from getting killed when my chances of hitting the right person were extremely slim. 

Your blade is useless if you dont use it to help the village and nothing can steal your blade except murder youve made me feel a lot better about my vote thanks and it does matter who you picked it matters very much and your evasiveness on that is also very telling cause imagine this right imagine this youre a villager up on the chopping block you made a big mistake what do you do a hide information from the people you are allieed with  because it doesnt matter b dodge and evade all the questions or c share everything you can I think the answers a little obvious 

I think Im signing off for the night Ive got a lot of stuff to do heres a quokka that kind of represents my mood right now

Spoiler

 

[Amanuensis]

Wait. I just realized something.

@Araris Valerian or anyone else, plz correct me if I'm wrong.

D2 Illwei is murdered! Paliah Honorblade must be claimed by elims or is randomly distributed.
N2 Chantara receives Honorblade, but has no charge to use any powers? Right?
D3 ???
N3 ???
D4 ???
N4 Chantara Illuminates self + random person (why a random?)
D5 This is revealed

Can someone who knows how the Highstorm mechanic works verify that this chain of events makes sense? (I.E. could Chantara have used a power earlier?)

At the very least, I feel like having the blade for that long would mean the use would be considered more deeply.

Also how often did the Alvron Shaman info update? Every day turn? Every night turn? Both?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Remembered

[Araris Valerian]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

Wait. I just realized something.

@Araris Valerian or anyone else, plz correct me if I'm wrong.

D2 Illwei is murdered! Paliah Honorblade must be claimed by elims or is randomly distributed.
N2 Chantara receives Honorblade, but has no charge to use any powers? Right?
D3 ???
N3 ???
D4 ???
N4 Chantara Illuminates self + random person (why a random?)
D5 This is revealed

Can someone who knows how the Highstorm mechanic works verify that this chain of events makes sense? (I.E. could Chantara have used a power earlier?)

At the very least, I feel like having the blade for that long would mean the use would be considered more deeply.

Also how often did the Alvron Shaman info update? Every day turn? Every night turn? Both?

No, everyone starts with 2 charges of Stormlight, regardless of whether they are holding a Blade.

Edit: Looks like the Shaman list updates at the end of each day.

The only reason I can think of to use Paliah's other power from a village perspective is to stop vote manip when the game is about to end. Which is still less useful than trying to guess the NK.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Araris Valerian

[Amanuensis]

2 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

No, everyone starts with 2 charges of Stormlight, regardless of whether they are holding a Blade.

Edit: Looks like the Shaman list updates at the end of each day.

The only reason I can think of to use Paliah's other power from a village perspective is to stop vote manip when the game is about to end. Which is still less useful than trying to guess the NK.

Well, that definitely muddles things further.

Looking back, I've heard people mention Chantara was fairly inactive? How long did that go on for?

4 hours ago, Chantara said:

tbh last night was the first night I used the blade. I wasn’t sure how it worked per se, and who’s to say I didn’t protect my top village read. I didn’t say anything about who else I protected. Just that I definitely shielded myself. It also just sounded more efficient to protect 2 people from potential scans than one person from getting killed when my chances of hitting the right person were extremely slim. 

Cause that's 4 turns Chantara went not using a power when they could have. Also 4 turns they could have asked others how the blade worked, including the GM.

Too busy submitting kills, maybe? How does the action economy work in this game?

[Araris Valerian]

Just now, Ookla the Remembered said:

Too busy submitting kills, maybe? How does the action economy work in this game?

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• Each player is limited to one action per turn (one Day, one Night), including the Elim kill.

So they could have been using Illumination during the day (it lasts a full cycle) and sending in unblockable kills at night.

[InfiniteInsanity]

I see where y'all are going with Chantara and with JNV but I understand more with Chantara so that's my vote. Then using Illumination over Progression makes me feel iffy about them.

[Amanuensis]

4 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

So they could have been using Illumination during the day (it lasts a full cycle) and sending in unblockable kills at night.

Oh. Illumination is literally smoking? That's even more incriminating 

I guess now what I'm wondering is, in a E!Chantara world, who can they be partnered with?

ED1T:

Ninja'd by an II vote

(6) Chantara: Araris, Silhouette, Aman, JNV, Archer, InfiniteInsanity,
(1) JNV: Tani, 
(1) Turtle: Chantara, 
(1) Silhouette: Elkanah, 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Remembered

[Chantara]

40 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

Much appreciated o7

TBH I wasn't convinced myself by Araris' initial presentation, just wanted to add some weight to his vote and see what shook out. Then the JNV claim thing happened. I guess the crux of my problem is using Illumination over Progression, if I disregard the one post that made my gut-bells jingle. I find it really hard to reconcile that with a Villager, but I guess if you're on the newer side it's not as damning as I initially perceived.

I guess I have two questions (first for you, second for everyone else):

1. What's your mafia experience like? Have you played a lot of games in the last 9 months or are you an expat from MU? If not, how many do you have under your belt?
2. Would anyone have used Illumination over Progression in Chantara's shoes? @Ookla the Debonair @Araris Valerian @Ookla the Implosion @InfiniteInsanity @Elkanah

 

I only play on SE. I’ve only played 3? games. And it’s been YEARS since I’ve played werewolf in person. 

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35 minutes ago, JNV said:

Your blade is useless if you dont use it to help the village and nothing can steal your blade except murder youve made me feel a lot better about my vote thanks and it does matter who you picked it matters very much and your evasiveness on that is also very telling cause imagine this right imagine this youre a villager up on the chopping block you made a big mistake what do you do a hide information from the people you are allieed with  because it doesnt matter b dodge and evade all the questions or c share everything you can I think the answers a little obvious 

 

I didn’t think who I picked would want to be associated with me at this point. Since it matters so much, it was Araris.  Obviously, they didn’t know or they wouldn’t have started this train. 

As to why I am not forthcoming initially, it’s because the elims are still out there and I am trying to not give them any more information.
 

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10 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

Too busy submitting kills, maybe? How does the action economy work in this game?

 

I mentioned a while ago that I got super super sick and want on for a few days… 

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14 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

Cause that's 4 turns Chantara went not using a power when they could have. Also 4 turns they could have asked others how the blade worked, including the GM.

 

Let me rephrase: I didn’t understand the power that blade held. Roleblocking and protection isn’t usually an ability I give much credit to. 

[Amanuensis]

1 minute ago, Chantara said:

I mentioned a while ago that I got super super sick and want on for a few days… 

I also recently just got over a really bad sickness  Glad you're feeling better.

FTR the reason I'm questioning your slot this much is because I'd like to vote right today and you seem the best lead from my limited-time PoV. I hope you know it's not personal 

I'm kinda at the point where your train has built up so quickly that I'm doubting my initial gut instinct, hence also trying to figure out who your partners are. Either they're the players not voting you, someone is busing, or you really are V and the elims happy to see you out

If we get today wrong, tomorrow is Exlo, right? We still can turn the game around?

[Araris Valerian]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

If we get today wrong, tomorrow is Exlo, right? We still can turn the game around?

If we get today wrong then all our hopes are on the vig kill going through. This is effectively Exlo.

[Amanuensis]

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

If we get today wrong then all our hopes are on the vig kill going through. This is effectively Exlo.

That's not what I wanted to hear lol.

[Araris Valerian]

Just now, Ookla the Remembered said:

That's not what I wanted to hear lol.

Well we are in this really confusing world where the elims apparently had like no interactions with the one teammate that flipped. And they probably could have stopped that flip with some smart, minimal effort.

[Amanuensis]

I just hope I didn't walk into this thread hoping to be a hero just to throw

I remember something from my backreading about Turtle knowing Illwei on MU, yeah? Was that the crux of the anti-Turtle sentiment or is there more to it than "N1 fearkill makes sense"?

Also, has anyone in the last 9 months learned how to read JNV better and have reasons to suspect them other than starting a Stick counter train?

[Ashbringer]

Just over 2 hours until rollover!

[Chantara]

So, I’m rereading this thread and I’m noticing that for Araris not having a lot of reasoning to vote for me, a lot of people jumped on that train really quick. I’m seeing a lot of sheeping. Even Archer who was dead set on voting Turtle or JNV jumped on this wagon, and by then, there were already plenty of people voting me that even with a vote manip it would have been difficult to save me. I understand why JNV is voting me, I did rb them.

With me having Pailiah’s blade, I really just didn’t feel an urgency to use it. Even still I don’t feel like it was a productive use of storm light. This case being built against me is exactly why the elim did, and should have, skipped claiming the blade. If I was an elim I would have, just so I could use this exact argument: “Well, she has the blade, so obviously she did it.” 

I suspect there is at least one elim voting for me, probably two. I’m thinking e!Araris could be a thing. And I still feel fairly certain about e!Turtle and e!JNV. I’m going to keep my vote on Turtle for now. They’ve been too quiet for my liking, especially since there was a solid train on them before Araris started the one on me. And assuming we’re still looking at a fairly inactive elim team they fit the bill. 

[Araris Valerian]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

I remember something from my backreading about Turtle knowing Illwei on MU, yeah? Was that the crux of the anti-Turtle sentiment or is there more to it than "N1 fearkill makes sense"?

Well, everyone has been harboring a suspicion of JNV, and Turtle was involved in a switch from JNV to Cash on D4. So those two could be elim together, but probably neither without the other.

[Amanuensis]

Ah, okay. I still really liked Turtle's start of D4 so if that's all, I'm leaning V. What's the deal with Silho?

ED1T:

17 minutes ago, Chantara said:

So, I’m rereading this thread and I’m noticing that for Araris not having a lot of reasoning to vote for me, a lot of people jumped on that train really quick. I’m seeing a lot of sheeping. Even Archer who was dead set on voting Turtle or JNV jumped on this wagon, and by then, there were already plenty of people voting me that even with a vote manip it would have been difficult to save me. I understand why JNV is voting me, I did rb them.

With me having Pailiah’s blade, I really just didn’t feel an urgency to use it. Even still I don’t feel like it was a productive use of storm light. This case being built against me is exactly why the elim did, and should have, skipped claiming the blade. If I was an elim I would have, just so I could use this exact argument: “Well, she has the blade, so obviously she did it.” 

I suspect there is at least one elim voting for me, probably two. I’m thinking e!Araris could be a thing. And I still feel fairly certain about e!Turtle and e!JNV. I’m going to keep my vote on Turtle for now. They’ve been too quiet for my liking, especially since there was a solid train on them before Araris started the one on me. And assuming we’re still looking at a fairly inactive elim team they fit the bill. 

What're your thoughts on me then? 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Remembered

[Chantara]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Remembered said:

What're your thoughts on me then? 

Possibly elim just because Xino was super inactive, but also hard to say. You’re asking all the right questions to be V. You’re just trying to get your feet under you, so it’s understandable you would join the train, especially with the stakes being so high rn, you’d have to rely on others’ reads jumping into the game like you did. 

[Amanuensis]

Oh yeah can someone explain to me the inactive elim team theory. Did no kill happen on a night or what?