Theory: Ruin and Preservation are dawnshards

[Spearguy]

Something that has always bothered me about Ruin and Preservation is that they feel more primal then the other shards. Shards like Honor, Odium and Cultivation feel like they are more things that are brought about by humans, but to destroy and preserve are more innate the the world. My theory is that the original vessels of Ruin and Preservation (Ati and Leras respectively) were one of the ones to wield the Dawnshards against Adonalsium. Also that the 4th and final Dawnshard is Creation itself which Adolosium never let go of when creating the Cosmere. So the four Dawnshards would sort of corisponed to directions, backwards (Ruin), stop (Preserve), sides (Change) and finally forward (Create)

P.S sorry if this is awkward formatting, this is my first major theory.

[hitkay]

It has been confirmed that Ruin and Preservation are both Shards. The reason they seem more 'primal' than Honor and Odium is explained here.

It is unlikely that Creation is a Dawnshard, as Dawnshards are commands, so it would more like be Create. It is also unlikely that Create is a Dawnshard, because the Dawnshards together were the commands used to create the cosmere, and 'Create' probably could have done that by itself. Adonalsium probably did not hold on to any Dawnshards because they were used in the weapon to shatter him.

My theory for a second Dawnshard, the one that's different from all the others, is 'Feel'. Adonalsium wanted his creation to be capable of experiencing itself, enjoying, hating, possessing individuality. My guess is that the 'Feel' Dawnshard shattered a quarter of Adonalsium's Intent into Odium, Autonomy, Mercy, and maybe Valor. I think this is also the Dawnshard that Hoid held, which is why he cannot hurt others or eat meat.

I like the idea of the Dawnshards corresponding to directions, but Change would probably represent 'forwards'. It's described as "the will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better", which seems to be like the Intent of advancing - Cultivation, Ambition, Invention, arguably Ruin. I guess a Dawnshard representing 'stop' could make sense. Maybe 'Endure'? That could have shattered Adonalsium into Preservation and Valor among others.

Edited November 2, 2022 by hitkay

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, hitkay said:

It has been confirmed that Ruin and Preservation are both Shards. The reason they seem more 'primal' than Honor and Odium is explained here.

It is unlikely that Creation is a Dawnshard, as Dawnshards are commands, so it would more like be Create. It is also unlikely that Create is a Dawnshard, because the Dawnshards together were the commands used to create the cosmere, and 'Create' probably could have done that by itself. Adonalsium probably did not hold on to any Dawnshards because they were used in the weapon to shatter him.

My theory for a second Dawnshard, the one that's different from all the others, is 'Feel'. Adonalsium wanted his creation to be capable of experiencing itself, enjoying, hating, possessing individuality. My guess is that the 'Feel' Dawnshard shattered a quarter of Adonalsium's Intent into Odium, Autonomy, Mercy, and maybe Valor. I think this is also the Dawnshard that Hoid held, which is why he cannot hurt others or eat meat.

I like the idea of the Dawnshards corresponding to directions, but Change would probably represent 'forwards'. It's described as "the will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better", which seems to be like the Intent of advancing - Cultivation, Ambition, Invention, arguably Ruin. I guess a Dawnshard representing 'stop' could make sense. Maybe 'Endure'? That could have shattered Adonalsium into Preservation and Valor among others.

I agree that Change is likely one of them, and one that represents the quadrant (or some grouping) that both belong to:

 

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Mattlink123

From what I understand, Preservation and Ruin worked together to create Scadrial because neither had the ability to create on their own. If that was the case, why did they feel the need to create a world from scratch in the first place? Was it not possible for Preservation and Ruin to Invest themselves on different pre-existing planets and not bother each other?

Brandon Sanderson

They didn't want to. They wanted to create. That is an impluse that some have, and in that case it is something those two both shared is this desire to create something. And so they did!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

 

[hitkay]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

They didn't want to. They wanted to create. That is an impluse that some have, and in that case it is something those two both shared is this desire to create something. And so they did!

Doesn't that refer to Ati and Leras rather than Ruin and Preservation? We understand those Intents pretty well and neither of them encompasses creation.

[Quantus]

12 minutes ago, hitkay said:

Doesn't that refer to Ati and Leras rather than Ruin and Preservation? We understand those Intents pretty well and neither of them encompasses creation.

No, I dont think so, all indication is that the Vessels mostly just wanted to Contain what they considered the most dangerous Shard (Ruin).  And they both specifically represent the Cycle of Creation, it's why Ruin would be so compatible with Cultivation:

 

 

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Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

 

 

 

 

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Questioner

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson

So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both-- cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. 

So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." Rather than-- But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. 

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

[Tglassy]

I had a theory way back when that all the Shards were grouped into the same basic sets as the metals on Scadrial.  Preservation, associated with the number 16, would want to keep things relatively the same.  

So you'd have four Physical, four Mental, four Temporal, and four Enhancement.  Now that we know the names of all sixteen, maybe I can make it fit.  

 

So, each Shard seems to have an Opposite and two Flips (like the flip side of a coin).  Some of these aren't perfect, and I'm assuming Wisdom and Justice are Shards, but I could be way off.  Anyway, here's my thought process.  Go ahead and tear it up.  I KNOW not all shards can be paired off like Ruin and Preservation, but it's still interesting how some of these do so.

 

Physical - These four seem to have to do with rules and bonds.  Honor and Dominion are Flips, one being about themselves following their own rules, while the other being about others following their rules.  Whimsy seems to be a flip of Honor.  Honor CARES about their actions.  Whimsy doesn't.  Autonomy is a flip of Dominion.  One wants freedom for others (which is why she is interfering with other planets), the other Domination.  Could be why Autonomy (supposedly) helped kill Dominion. as they are natural enemies.

Honor - Internal Pushing - I Bind myself

Autonomy - External Pushing - I Unbind Others

Dominion - External Pulling - I Bind Others

Whimsy - Internal Pulling - I am not Bound

 

Mental - Hate is the opposite of Love.  Could be why Odium wanted Devotion gone.  That's why he got Autonomy to help him, since Devotion and Dominion were together and allied.  Got the two opposites to help kill their main threats.  That would mean Prudence is the opposite of Valor.  One is about knowing what is right, the other about doing it.  I'm having a hard time deciding which of these is internal or external, though.  They all seem internal.  Could mean they belong elsewhere.

 

Odium - External Pushing - Hate.  I hate 

Devotion - Internal Pulling -  Love. I love

Wisdom/Prudence? - External Pulling - Wisdom.  I Understand

Valor - Internal Pushing - I do what is right

 

Enhancement - These are about giving and taking.  Endowment's Magic system, the Breaths, is all about giving of one's self willingly.  Unfortunately, that's the only magic system we know here, but we can extrapolate.  Ambition is the personal desire to gain power, which is a Flip of Endowment.  Endowment gives others power, Ambition wants more for themselves.  The other two are even more nebulous, because we just have a name and a speculation of mine.  Mercy is the opposite of Endowment, as it is the withholding of something.  Mercy is withholding something they deserve.  Justice is the Flip of that, in it's GIVING something they deserve.  Justice and Endowment would be Flips, as they both give, but Endowment gives what is not earned.  

Endowment - Internal Pushing - I give to others

Ambition - Internal Pulling - I grow in power

Mercy - External Pulling - I withhold what you deserve

Justice? - External Pushing -  I give what you deserve

 

Temporal - This one is hard to factor, cause they all seem to be external.  Ruin Pushes while Preservation Pulls, that much is clear.  Ruin is about the universe fading while Cultivation is about the universe growing.  Invention is the flip of Preservation. Preservation wants all things to stay the same, Invention wants it to be made new.  

Ruin - External Pushing - Entropy.  All Things Decay

Cultivation - External Pushing - Growth.  All Things Grow

Invention - Internal Pushing - Change.  I make things change

Preservation - Internal Pulling - Inertia.  I keep things the same

[The First Gem]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:56 PM, Tglassy said:

I had a theory way back when that all the Shards were grouped into the same basic sets as the metals on Scadrial.  Preservation, associated with the number 16, would want to keep things relatively the same.  

So you'd have four Physical, four Mental, four Temporal, and four Enhancement.  Now that we know the names of all sixteen, maybe I can make it fit.  

 

So, each Shard seems to have an Opposite and two Flips (like the flip side of a coin).  Some of these aren't perfect, and I'm assuming Wisdom and Justice are Shards, but I could be way off.  Anyway, here's my thought process.  Go ahead and tear it up.  I KNOW not all shards can be paired off like Ruin and Preservation, but it's still interesting how some of these do so.

 

Physical - These four seem to have to do with rules and bonds.  Honor and Dominion are Flips, one being about themselves following their own rules, while the other being about others following their rules.  Whimsy seems to be a flip of Honor.  Honor CARES about their actions.  Whimsy doesn't.  Autonomy is a flip of Dominion.  One wants freedom for others (which is why she is interfering with other planets), the other Domination.  Could be why Autonomy (supposedly) helped kill Dominion. as they are natural enemies.

Honor - Internal Pushing - I Bind myself

Autonomy - External Pushing - I Unbind Others

Dominion - External Pulling - I Bind Others

Whimsy - Internal Pulling - I am not Bound

 

Mental - Hate is the opposite of Love.  Could be why Odium wanted Devotion gone.  That's why he got Autonomy to help him, since Devotion and Dominion were together and allied.  Got the two opposites to help kill their main threats.  That would mean Prudence is the opposite of Valor.  One is about knowing what is right, the other about doing it.  I'm having a hard time deciding which of these is internal or external, though.  They all seem internal.  Could mean they belong elsewhere.

 

Odium - External Pushing - Hate.  I hate 

Devotion - Internal Pulling -  Love. I love

Wisdom/Prudence? - External Pulling - Wisdom.  I Understand

Valor - Internal Pushing - I do what is right

 

Enhancement - These are about giving and taking.  Endowment's Magic system, the Breaths, is all about giving of one's self willingly.  Unfortunately, that's the only magic system we know here, but we can extrapolate.  Ambition is the personal desire to gain power, which is a Flip of Endowment.  Endowment gives others power, Ambition wants more for themselves.  The other two are even more nebulous, because we just have a name and a speculation of mine.  Mercy is the opposite of Endowment, as it is the withholding of something.  Mercy is withholding something they deserve.  Justice is the Flip of that, in it's GIVING something they deserve.  Justice and Endowment would be Flips, as they both give, but Endowment gives what is not earned.  

Endowment - Internal Pushing - I give to others

Ambition - Internal Pulling - I grow in power

Mercy - External Pulling - I withhold what you deserve

Justice? - External Pushing -  I give what you deserve

 

Temporal - This one is hard to factor, cause they all seem to be external.  Ruin Pushes while Preservation Pulls, that much is clear.  Ruin is about the universe fading while Cultivation is about the universe growing.  Invention is the flip of Preservation. Preservation wants all things to stay the same, Invention wants it to be made new.  

Ruin - External Pushing - Entropy.  All Things Decay

Cultivation - External Pushing - Growth.  All Things Grow

Invention - Internal Pushing - Change.  I make things change

Preservation - Internal Pulling - Inertia.  I keep things the same

I love a lot of this. Definatly some truth to this

[Paulyoceans]

For Dawnshards I think we have seen 3 of them

We know Change - Rysn

I think Nightblood is one (Destroy)

I think Kelsier is one (Survive)

I think we also have a WOB that Hoid WAS one for a while as well thought we don't know which. Thoughts?

[Firesong]

I doubt that the others would be Destroy and Survive. As I question where Nightblood or Kelsier would find the Dawnshards, and I don't think that Destroy and Survive make sense as Dawnshards. Ultimately, Destruction is a form of Change. 

The current theory for Dawnshards, based on the Mural and extrapolation, is that each Dawnshard coincides with Four Shards. 

Change would coincide with:

• Ruin (Entropy, Decay),
• Cultivation (Growth and Pruning)
• Preservation (Prevention of Change)
• Invention? (Creation of new things?) 

 

 

One might me Order:

• Honor (Oaths, Justice, Natural Laws)
• Dominion (Kinda self-evident)
• Devotion (adherence to Dominion and Laws)
• ???

 

 

And yes, Hoid was a Dawnshard, it was said in the Dawnshard Annotations. We don't know which one.  

 

[cometaryorbit]

Hoid's inability to do harm makes me think his Dawnshard is one associated with protection or persistence. Something like Remain (the same) or Protect or Persist.

IMO likely associated with:

Preservation (stasis)

Autonomy (persistence of identity)

Valor (protection from outside forces)

Mercy (protection from self / consequences)

Rysn's is Change or equivalent, imo linked to...

Ruin (entropy)

Cultivation (controlled growth)

Not sure the other two. Possibly Odium if it's fundamentally more conflict than hate. Possibly Whimsy if that Intent is "change for the sake of change" rather than something more like "the divine urge to create for the love of creation".

One other is "known to bind". Probably including:

Honor (oaths, bonds)

Devotion (loving service/unity by love)

Dominion (rule/unity by force or unity imposed)

Not sure the 4th.

There's one we have no clues for.

Edited November 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Fezzik]

On 11/9/2022 at 0:30 PM, cometaryorbit said:

One other is "known to bind". Probably including:

The full quote is that the dawnshard(s) are known to bind any creature, voidish or mortal. It makes more sense that honor was referencing the dawnshards' ability to be controlled by anyone--human or singer. I. E. Rysn is bound to "Change".

[The Subsumer]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:56 PM, Tglassy said:

I had a theory way back when that all the Shards were grouped into the same basic sets as the metals on Scadrial.  Preservation, associated with the number 16, would want to keep things relatively the same.  

So you'd have four Physical, four Mental, four Temporal, and four Enhancement.  Now that we know the names of all sixteen, maybe I can make it fit.  

This is smart. I like this. I disagree with some of your labelling, but as a whole, this is pretty neat. Good job.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I also agree, though I don't know if Push/Pull is the right term, but seems correct.

[Tglassy]

19 hours ago, The Subsumer said:

This is smart. I like this. I disagree with some of your labelling, but as a whole, this is pretty neat. Good job.

Thank you.  It gets difficult, because you have to boil down the Shard to what it is without someone else's Intent distorting it.  Like, Preservation is Inertia, and Ruin is Entropy.  But the person who took Entropy viewed it as Ruin, and it became about Destruction, rather than just the gradual wearing out of all things.  

If we could find what the Shards actually are, then they'd fit a little better.  But I do think they each have a push and a pull, and each one is external or internal.  There being 16 of them, and Preservation wanting so hard to keep things the same, just seems to make it make sense.  

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I also think that there are numbers asociated with each shard, Honor 10, Odium 9, and preservation 16.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I also think that there are numbers asociated with each shard, Honor 10, Odium 9, and preservation 16.

10 is actually the number of the Rosharan system(With the exception of Braize which is nine) not the shards. And 16 is big for the whole Cosmere

Spoiler

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Intresting, I always thought that shatteirng order or assending order is what gave Preservation 16, which just happens to match because he was last.