Trillium theory?

[GhostPartea]

I don’t know if it’s a theory that’s out there but it’s something I don’t think I’ve heard yet on 17th shard yet…

Trellium = Kelsier(s god (like) metal)

[StormingTexan]

8 hours ago, GhostPartea said:

I don’t know if it’s a theory that’s out there but it’s something I don’t think I’ve heard yet on 17th shard yet…

Trellium = Kelsier(s god (like) metal)

I made a comment in one or the pre-view chapters about Trell = Kelsier. Mainly just because everyone else has been mentioned so I wanted to add my completely unsustained guess. I am sure it is completely full of holes but some supporting arguments:

1) WoB that state Trell will be a much bigger factor in MB3 as well as we will see a lot more Kelsier (presumably he is the rogue Mistborn in MB3).

2) We see his interest in hemalurgy at the end of MBSH.

3) We have been told Trellium is related to a shard and since Kelsier ascended briefly and is a cognitive shadow that could count. 

4) Being around Sazed in the final empire he probably heard about Trell at some point and why not re-use. 

5) Clearly Kelsier has no problem setting himself up as "God" from what we have seen in Southern Scadrial.

6) Hoid (granted we do not really know his motivations) wanted Wax to know about Kelsier possible to stop him? 

All of this though is pretty loose or potentially consequential and could be explained away I'm sure. 

Big issues with it is I do not really see what his motivation would be unless he thinks doing this will help him in his goal to leave Scadrial. Not sure how the Set would play in to all of this either as they do not seem to be aligned with the Southern Scandrians who Kelsier spent a lot of effort to help.  It also seems really far fetched being connected to Scadrial as much as he is he would be able be able to hide this from Harmony. No idea either why he would turn on his friend Sazed especially since his actions in MBSH he seemed to want to help others take the power not take it himself. Plus probably a 100 other issues that I am not thinking about. 

I do like the idea though and it for sure makes Kelsier relevant going forward. I really like the idea of the threat being "homegrown" compared to an external threat.  I also have never really understood why Autonomy would want to attack Scadrial. Her intent is not super different from Harmony. Although with Bleeder we do see that some would consider Harmony's philosophy of non-intervention to not be 100% true. The other big suspect Odium also seems odd to me with the events in RoW and seems like he would have enough problems on Roshar. The timeline also does not make a lot of sense for Odium since it is presumed Trell has been involved on Scadrial for a few decades. 

[+Child of Hodor]

9 hours ago, GhostPartea said:

I don’t know if it’s a theory that’s out there but it’s something I don’t think I’ve heard yet on 17th shard yet…

Trellium = Kelsier(s god (like) metal)

17 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I made a comment in one or the pre-view chapters about Trell = Kelsier. Mainly just because everyone else has been mentioned so I wanted to add my completely unsustained guess. I am sure it is completely full of holes but some supporting arguments:

1) WoB that state Trell will be a much bigger factor in MB3 as well as we will see a lot more Kelsier (presumably he is the rogue Mistborn in MB3).

2) We see his interest in hemalurgy at the end of MBSH.

3) We have been told Trellium is related to a shard and since Kelsier ascended briefly and is a cognitive shadow that could count. 

4) Being around Sazed in the final empire he probably heard about Trell at some point and why not re-use. 

5) Clearly Kelsier has no problem setting himself up as "God" from what we have seen in Southern Scadrial.

6) Hoid (granted we do not really know his motivations) wanted Wax to know about Kelsier possible to stop him? 

All of this though is pretty loose or potentially consequential and could be explained away I'm sure. 

Big issues with it is I do not really see what his motivation would be unless he thinks doing this will help him in his goal to leave Scadrial. Not sure how the Set would play in to all of this either as they do not seem to be aligned with the Southern Scandrians who Kelsier spent a lot of effort to help.  It also seems really far fetched being connected to Scadrial as much as he is he would be able be able to hide this from Harmony. No idea either why he would turn on his friend Sazed especially since his actions in MBSH he seemed to want to help others take the power not take it himself. Plus probably a 100 other issues that I am not thinking about. 

I do like the idea though and it for sure makes Kelsier relevant going forward. I really like the idea of the threat being "homegrown" compared to an external threat.  I also have never really understood why Autonomy would want to attack Scadrial. Her intent is not super different from Harmony. Although with Bleeder we do see that some would consider Harmony's philosophy of non-intervention to not be 100% true. The other big suspect Odium also seems odd to me with the events in RoW and seems like he would have enough problems on Roshar. The timeline also does not make a lot of sense for Odium since it is presumed Trell has been involved on Scadrial for a few decades. 

That would be pretty crazy for Kelsier to be Trell. There's aspects of it that I like, but I kind of want Trell to be Shard or agent of a Shard we haven't met yet. It being Kelsier all along while a clever Sanderson-esque trick is a bit of a let down. Beyond my not wanting it to be the case I do think there are some issues:

1) Trell's faceless immortal at the end of BoM said the plan has changed to wiping out life on Scadrial. This isn't something Kelsier has ever been into. Keslier has some narcissistic and sociopathic personality traits and was planning a mass slaughter of the entire ruling class in Luthadel before he changed his mind. However, he's never been omnicidal. He is the Survivor after all.  We know from WoBs that Kelsier is still stuck in the system, why would he want to burn the planet he's stuck on? 

2) Harmony has no idea what Trell is. Harmony is well aware of Kelsier. For Harmony to be baffled there must be outside influence.  Even if Kelsier is a member of the Set or something like that I think there needs to be a separate Shard involved. 

3) Harmony represents the threat of Trell as a red miasma in space trying to invade the planet. While it's likely not meant to be literal it does show that the threat as coming from off world. 

 

[StormingTexan]

@Child of Hodor All great points. 

[GhostPartea]

I’m personally (judge me lest ye be judged in various other ways) not a fan of kelsier. I’d work for the guy in revolution but I don’t think I could be his friend. With that being said, 300 + years as a cognitive shadow after having only held Preservation for a little bit, he can’t be able to hold on as long as other shadows and maybe he’s going off the rails. 
Not that I want Kelsier to be “evil” I just wouldn’t be surprised if he was…the good guy so long he saw himself become the bag guy…oof.

Good points mentioned though and it’s too riddled with holes.

[CognitiveShadow]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:57 AM, StormingTexan said:

I also have never really understood why Autonomy would want to attack Scadrial. Her intent is not super different from Harmony.

It’s a popular belief that Autonomy has problems with shards that co-inhabit the same worlds/areas. (I believe there are WoBs about her helping odium with some stuff in that regard) She could have a big problem with two shards being taken up by the same vessel or something? I also could see Harmony and Autonomy being “opposites” in a similar way that ruin and preservation are opposites- Harmony is about peacefully coexisting together, autonomy is about doing your own thing whether others like it or not

[JustQuestin2004]

On 29/10/2022 at 10:36 AM, GhostPartea said:

Not that I want Kelsier to be “evil” I just wouldn’t be surprised if he was…the good guy so long he saw himself become the bag guy…oof.

Oof indeed, Kelsier becoming the Bag Guy? That would be a really big plot twist that no one would see coming.

I'm kidding I know what you meant but I just had the thought of someone going "The Survivor/Sovereign was the Garbage man all along!" and I just cracked up.

6 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

It’s a popular belief that Autonomy has problems with shards that co-inhabit the same worlds/areas. (I believe there are WoBs about her helping odium with some stuff in that regard) She could have a big problem with two shards being taken up by the same vessel or something? I also could see Harmony and Autonomy being “opposites” in a similar way that ruin and preservation are opposites- Harmony is about peacefully coexisting together, autonomy is about doing your own thing whether others like it or not

Interesting idea and considering the main guess is that Trellium + Harmonium = big boom would lend some credence to this theory.

Edited October 30, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[bmcclure7]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:57 AM, StormingTexan said:

I made a comment in one or the pre-view chapters about Trell = Kelsier. Mainly just because everyone else has been mentioned so I wanted to add my completely unsustained guess. I am sure it is completely full of holes but some supporting arguments:

1) WoB that state Trell will be a much bigger factor in MB3 as well as we will see a lot more Kelsier (presumably he is the rogue Mistborn in MB3).

2) We see his interest in hemalurgy at the end of MBSH.

3) We have been told Trellium is related to a shard and since Kelsier ascended briefly and is a cognitive shadow that could count. 

4) Being around Sazed in the final empire he probably heard about Trell at some point and why not re-use. 

5) Clearly Kelsier has no problem setting himself up as "God" from what we have seen in Southern Scadrial.

6) Hoid (granted we do not really know his motivations) wanted Wax to know about Kelsier possible to stop him? 

All of this though is pretty loose or potentially consequential and could be explained away I'm sure. 

Big issues with it is I do not really see what his motivation would be unless he thinks doing this will help him in his goal to leave Scadrial. Not sure how the Set would play in to all of this either as they do not seem to be aligned with the Southern Scandrians who Kelsier spent a lot of effort to help.  It also seems really far fetched being connected to Scadrial as much as he is he would be able be able to hide this from Harmony. No idea either why he would turn on his friend Sazed especially since his actions in MBSH he seemed to want to help others take the power not take it himself. Plus probably a 100 other issues that I am not thinking about. 

I do like the idea though and it for sure makes Kelsier relevant going forward. I really like the idea of the threat being "homegrown" compared to an external threat.  I also have never really understood why Autonomy would want to attack Scadrial. Her intent is not super different from Harmony. Although with Bleeder we do see that some would consider Harmony's philosophy of non-intervention to not be 100% true. The other big suspect Odium also seems odd to me with the events in RoW and seems like he would have enough problems on Roshar. The timeline also does not make a lot of sense for Odium since it is presumed Trell has been involved on Scadrial for a few decades. 

Kelsier is ghost not a God dosnt have a God metal. 

[bmcclure7]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:57 AM, StormingTexan said:

I made a comment in one or the pre-view chapters about Trell = Kelsier. Mainly just because everyone else has been mentioned so I wanted to add my completely unsustained guess. I am sure it is completely full of holes but some supporting arguments:

1) WoB that state Trell will be a much bigger factor in MB3 as well as we will see a lot more Kelsier (presumably he is the rogue Mistborn in MB3).

2) We see his interest in hemalurgy at the end of MBSH.

3) We have been told Trellium is related to a shard and since Kelsier ascended briefly and is a cognitive shadow that could count. 

4) Being around Sazed in the final empire he probably heard about Trell at some point and why not re-use. 

5) Clearly Kelsier has no problem setting himself up as "God" from what we have seen in Southern Scadrial.

6) Hoid (granted we do not really know his motivations) wanted Wax to know about Kelsier possible to stop him? 

All of this though is pretty loose or potentially consequential and could be explained away I'm sure. 

Big issues with it is I do not really see what his motivation would be unless he thinks doing this will help him in his goal to leave Scadrial. Not sure how the Set would play in to all of this either as they do not seem to be aligned with the Southern Scandrians who Kelsier spent a lot of effort to help.  It also seems really far fetched being connected to Scadrial as much as he is he would be able be able to hide this from Harmony. No idea either why he would turn on his friend Sazed especially since his actions in MBSH he seemed to want to help others take the power not take it himself. Plus probably a 100 other issues that I am not thinking about. 

I do like the idea though and it for sure makes Kelsier relevant going forward. I really like the idea of the threat being "homegrown" compared to an external threat.  I also have never really understood why Autonomy would want to attack Scadrial. Her intent is not super different from Harmony. Although with Bleeder we do see that some would consider Harmony's philosophy of non-intervention to not be 100% true. The other big suspect Odium also seems odd to me with the events in RoW and seems like he would have enough problems on Roshar. The timeline also does not make a lot of sense for Odium since it is presumed Trell has been involved on Scadrial for a few decades. 

 I strongly disagree. Harmony and autonomy are as much opposite as ruin and preservation. Think about it, Harmony's intent is about 2 things giving up their individuality to become one thing thing. That's about as opposite of autonomy as you can get.  

[hitkay]

54 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I strongly disagree. Harmony and autonomy are as much opposite as ruin and preservation. Think about it, Harmony's intent is about 2 things giving up their individuality to become one thing thing. That's about as opposite of autonomy as you can get.  

In the case of Harmony, it's a little difficult to tell what Sazed's intent is and what the Shard's Intent is, and I'm not sure the Intent is actually 'harmony', I think it's still 'ruin' and 'preserve' but Sazed just needed a name. From what we've seen, Sazed doesn't want two things to give up their individuality in order to become one thing, he wants them to peacefully co-exist. I doubt Sazed approves of the Elendel Supremacy Bill, which also sounds like something that Autonomy would oppose.

Not saying that Trell isn't Autonomy, but unless Autonomy's Intent is very different to what we're assuming it is, I really don't think their Shardic Intents are opposites. They seem pretty in line with each other, honestly.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, hitkay said:

In the case of Harmony, it's a little difficult to tell what Sazed's intent is and what the Shard's Intent is, and I'm not sure the Intent is actually 'harmony', I think it's still 'ruin' and 'preserve' but Sazed just needed a name. From what we've seen, Sazed doesn't want two things to give up their individuality in order to become one thing, he wants them to peacefully co-exist. I doubt Sazed approves of the Elendel Supremacy Bill, which also sounds like something that Autonomy would oppose.

Not saying that Trell isn't Autonomy, but unless Autonomy's Intent is very different to what we're assuming it is, I really don't think their Shardic Intents are opposites. They seem pretty in line with each other, honestly.

Isn't there a wob on this?

In any case void light, stormlight and war light are there separate things so I doubt he is holding two shards separately. But I will have to check in case Brandon has already cleared this up. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by bmcclure7

[hitkay]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Isn't there a wob on this?

In any case void light, stormlight and war light are there separate things so I doubt he is holding two shards separately. But I will have to check in case Brandon has already cleared this up. 

In Alloy of Law, Harmony's intent/Intent is stated as "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", which is similar to the concept of autonomy. Whether or not Autonomy's Intent lines up remains to be seen; we know from Honor and Odium that the word is fitted to the concept, rather than the concept fitting the word.

The following is re: Harmony's Intent vs Ruin and Preservation's Intents, which I've marked as a spoiler because I guess it's kind of a tangent.

Spoiler

WoB states that "the Shards are now intermingled" and that if Sazed died, "he would drop Harmony" (r/fantasy AMA, April 23, 2013). This confirms that Harmony is functionally a single Shard, rather than two Shards held by a single Vessel. We also know that the Intent of the Ruin/Preservation hybrid Shard could change to Discord if the Vessel is unable to balance the powers (Skyward Seattle signing, November 10, 2018), and that the name 'Harmony' was chosen by Sazed but that it "felt right to him", which is "similar" to how Shardic Intent overrides the Vessel's personality over time (r/books AMA, March 12, 2015).

However, this Intent may be less to do with the combination of Ruin and Preservation specifically, and more to do with any two Shards. WoB states that Odium is scared of "the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony" (San Diego Comic-Con@Home, July 23, 2020), which implies that the Intent of 'harmony' is less about causing harmony or acting with Harmony, but more about finding harmony between the two distinct Shardic Intents. Additionally, Harmony says in his letter to Hoid, "I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult", revealing that he is still holding two separate powers and further implying that these powers still have separate Intents.

BrandoSando has stated that "Harmony is considered a Shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king" (Milton Keynes signing, November 21, 2011), and that he is a "composite of two diametrically opposed Shards" (Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing, March 5, 2014). This further implies that the Harmony Shard has two Intents, as Ruin and Preservation remain somewhat separate.

So my conclusion is that Harmony still has the two separate Intents of Ruin and Preservation, but these Intents combined give the Vessel an Intent of finding a harmony between these, finding a balance between acting on each of them. A separate Vessel could have the Intent of Discord if they couldn't, or didn't want to, balance the separate Intents. This would imply that Harmony's stated intent/Intent, "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", is either not the actual Intent of the Shard but rather Sazed's personal intent, or is Sazed's way of finding a harmony between Ruin and Preservation (I think it's probably a mix of both).

I think that a hybrid of any two diametrically opposed Shards, if there are any others, would also have either the Intent of Harmony or Discord, but what they were finding harmony between would change. If we assume that Devotion and Dominion were diametrically opposed, and if they hadn't been Splintered and had both been taken up by Sazed instead of Ruin and Preservation, then Sazed's Intent would be finding harmony between the Intents of Devotion and Dominion. This incarnation of Harmony would likely not have the Intent of "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", as this goes against the Intent of Dominion and arguably Devotion.

#

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by hitkay

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, hitkay said:

In Alloy of Law, Harmony's intent/Intent is stated as "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", which is similar to the concept of autonomy. Whether or not Autonomy's Intent lines up remains to be seen; we know from Honor and Odium that the word is fitted to the concept, rather than the concept fitting the word.

The following is re: Harmony's Intent vs Ruin and Preservation's Intents, which I've marked as a spoiler because I guess it's kind of a tangent.

  Hide contents

WoB states that "the Shards are now intermingled" and that if Sazed died, "he would drop Harmony" (r/fantasy AMA, April 23, 2013). This confirms that Harmony is functionally a single Shard, rather than two Shards held by a single Vessel. We also know that the Intent of the Ruin/Preservation hybrid Shard could change to Discord if the Vessel is unable to balance the powers (Skyward Seattle signing, November 10, 2018), and that the name 'Harmony' was chosen by Sazed but that it "felt right to him", which is "similar" to how Shardic Intent overrides the Vessel's personality over time (r/books AMA, March 12, 2015).

However, this Intent may be less to do with the combination of Ruin and Preservation specifically, and more to do with any two Shards. WoB states that Odium is scared of "the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony" (San Diego Comic-Con@Home, July 23, 2020), which implies that the Intent of 'harmony' is less about causing harmony or acting with Harmony, but more about finding harmony between the two distinct Shardic Intents. Additionally, Harmony says in his letter to Hoid, "I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult", revealing that he is still holding two separate powers and further implying that these powers still have separate Intents.

So my conclusion is that Harmony, a "composite of two diametrically opposed Shards" (Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing, March 5, 2014), still has the two separate Intents of Ruin and Preservation, but these Intents combined give the Vessel an Intent of finding a harmony between these, finding a balance between acting on each of them. A separate Vessel could have the Intent of Discord if they couldn't, or didn't want to, balance the separate Intents. This would imply that Harmony's stated intent/Intent, "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", is either not the actual Intent of the Shard but rather Sazed's personal intent, or is Sazed's way of finding a harmony between Ruin and Preservation (I think it's probably a mix of both).

I think that a hybrid of any two diametrically opposed Shards, if there are any others, would also have either the Intent of Harmony or Discord, but what they were finding harmony between would change. If we assume that Devotion and Dominion were diametrically opposed, and if they hadn't been Splintered and had both been taken up by Sazed instead of Ruin and Preservation, then Sazed's Intent would be finding harmony between the Intents of Devotion and Dominion. This incarnation of Harmony would likely not have the Intent of "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices", as this goes against the Intent of Dominion and arguably Devotion.

#

 

 

 I still think this sounds like the opposite intent of autonomy. 

You're taking 2 shards  And changing them so that that they function at least as one. Similar to what is done with lights in storm light. This sounds very much like would be the opposite intent of autonomy. 

 I don't know "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices"  Fits in it's been a long time since I read alloy of law I probably need to reread it cause I certainly don't remember this part. Do you know where an alloy of law can be found for context?

[hitkay]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I still think this sounds like the opposite intent of autonomy. 

You're taking 2 shards  And changing them so that that they function at least as one. Similar to what is done with lights in storm light. This sounds very much like would be the opposite intent of autonomy. 

 I don't know "creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices"  Fits in it's been a long time since I read alloy of law I probably need to reread it cause I certainly don't remember this part. Do you know where an alloy of law can be found for context?

The Harmony quote is from chapter eighteen, according to the Coppermind Wiki.

You do have a point about changing two Shards so that they function as one, which I think is more or less Harmony's Intent, going against Autonomy's Intent. From JordanCon 2018: "Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? [...] The way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own."

But I think this is more of a preference for Autonomy rather than something she wants to impose on other Shards, and though the last part does imply that this could be a motive for acting against Harmony (if Autonomy is Trell), then that still doesn't make the Intents opposite, it just means that Autonomy opposes what Harmony is trying to do; Odium sought out Ambition to kill her, but that doesn't make them diametric opposites. Incidentally, like Autonomy, Odium doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard's Intent, which is also influenced by his own Intent: he hates what other Shards represent, as evidenced by his smack talk against Honor and Cultivation to Dalinar. That doesn't mean that Odium is the diametric opposite to Harmony, so why would Autonomy be?

If Harmony wanted all Shards to be harmonious, functioning as one, and Autonomy wanted all Shards to be autonomous, then I would agree with you. But Harmony wants Ruin and Preservation to be harmonious, and Autonomy wants Autonomy to be autonomous. Though Sazed may wish that there was universal harmony, and Bavadin may think that the Shards are better on their own, this does not mean that the Shardic Intents are diametrically opposed.

[bmcclure7]

26 minutes ago, hitkay said:

The Harmony quote is from chapter eighteen, according to the Coppermind Wiki.

You do have a point about changing two Shards so that they function as one, which I think is more or less Harmony's Intent, going against Autonomy's Intent. From JordanCon 2018: "Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? [...] The way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own."

But I think this is more of a preference for Autonomy rather than something she wants to impose on other Shards, and though the last part does imply that this could be a motive for acting against Harmony (if Autonomy is Trell), then that still doesn't make the Intents opposite, it just means that Autonomy opposes what Harmony is trying to do; Odium sought out Ambition to kill her, but that doesn't make them diametric opposites. Incidentally, like Autonomy, Odium doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard's Intent, which is also influenced by his own Intent: he hates what other Shards represent, as evidenced by his smack talk against Honor and Cultivation to Dalinar. That doesn't mean that Odium is the diametric opposite to Harmony, so why would Autonomy be?

If Harmony wanted all Shards to be harmonious, functioning as one, and Autonomy wanted all Shards to be autonomous, then I would agree with you. But Harmony wants Ruin and Preservation to be harmonious, and Autonomy wants Autonomy to be autonomous. Though Sazed may wish that there was universal harmony, and Bavadin may think that the Shards are better on their own, this does not mean that the Shardic Intents are diametrically opposed.

 I have a personal theory about odium  Why he went  After ambition that does have to do with his intent. But that might be too far off topic for this discussion. 

[Arkangel]

An interesting theory but I have a hard time believing that Kelsier would turn against Sazed like that. They certainly don't see eye-to-eye anymore but Saze was part of the crew.

[Isilel]

12 hours ago, Arkangel said:

An interesting theory but I have a hard time believing that Kelsier would turn against Sazed like that. 

 

Not only that, but Kelsier is a Sliver of Preservation and we saw him in Secret History resolving to learn as much as he could about the Cosmere, so that he could protect Scadrial from any outside dangers. He is pretty much the opposite of Trell, who wants to genocide and possibly destroy Scadrial!

[hitkay]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Not only that, but Kelsier is a Sliver of Preservation and we saw him in Secret History resolving to learn as much as he could about the Cosmere, so that he could protect Scadrial from any outside dangers. He is pretty much the opposite of Trell, who wants to genocide and possibly destroy Scadrial!

We know very little about what Kelsier's plans actually are beyond wanting to leave Scadrial, and wanting to leave Scadrial seems counter-intuitive to a primary objective of protecting it. We're also unclear on what exactly Trell is trying to do: Miles seems to think that Trell wants to rule Scadrial, and the Set has a longterm goal of building an army, but the ending of Bands of Mourning does, as you say, strongly indicate that Trell wants to genocide/destroy Scadrial. As the Faceless Immortal tells Suit that he will be allowed to serve in another Realm, and as what we've seen of The Lost Metal seems to reveal that the Set is stockpiling in Elendel, it is possible that Trell is preparing for some kind of evacuation to the Cognitive Realm to travel to Silverlight or another planet. This, on the surface, fits Kelsier's desire to survive: he has decided that Scadrial is doomed and is trying to get as many people to safety as possible. We also know from Iyatil that Southern Scadrials settled in Silverlight somehow, and as Iyatil is Kelsier's student, he was presumably responsible.

This doesn't hold up, though, because "start a very secretive cult to save a handful of sadistic murderers" does not seem to be how Kelsier would approach the problem. But it's still possible that Kelsier and Trell are related somehow. I've put some connections in spoilers because they're tangential.

Spoiler

We know that The Lost Metal will give us some insight into what Kelsier's dong (Skyward release party, November 6, 2018; Tel Aviv signing, October 18, 2019). We also know that both Trell and Kelsier will have larger roles in Era 3, and that neither of their plans will be explored until then (Idaho Falls signing, December 29, 2018; Skyward release party, November 6, 2018). This implies some kind of narrative connection between Kelsier and Trell, though this could easily be opposition.

Additionally, we don't have confirmation that Trell is actually a Shard, just that it's related to one (Idaho Falls signing, December 29, 2018), and we know that Trell is not from Yolen (Shadows of Self San Diego signing, October 8, 2015). This means it is still technically possible for Trell and Kelsier to be one and the same. Some weak evidence for this includes the fact that the titular deity from Trelagism has a brother, as does Kelsier, and Miles believes Trellism confirms he is "special", which would make sense if Trell is Kelsier: Kelsier's defining principle is survival and Miles can compound gold. Some slightly stronger evidence is that Trell is associated with the color red, as red signifies a Shard's Investiture being co-opted or corrupted by an outside force (Oathbringer San Francisco signing, November 15, 2017), so, potentially, Kelsier could be acting as Trell without being a Shard himself.

It's unlikely, but it remains possible.

EDIT: after the new chapters, I think we can assume with relative safety that Trell and Kelsier are at odds.

Edited October 31, 2022 by hitkay

[StormingTexan]

18 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I still think this sounds like the opposite intent of autonomy. 

I'll conceded we do not fully understand Autonomy's intent but taken at face value I just do not see how Harmony's would be opposite. To me they are pretty similar if using the text book definition of autonomy.

In BoM when Wax and Sazed have their discussion Wax chastises Harmony for not interfering to save people and preventing deaths when he could. It is a long conversation but he says this about the people in the battle happening at the time. 

Quote

 

“And when I hold back, staying my hand from protecting those below,” Harmony said, “I must do it out of trust in what people can do on their own.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Bands of Mourning: A Mistborn Novel (pp. 394-395). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

This sounds close to autonomy to me. Sazed is also concerned that he has made life too easy in the basin and that is preventing advancements in technology and exploration for instance they should have already had the radio. He views this as a mistake on his part which even Gods do make mistakes apparently. So I will conceded Sazed may not have been great at giving people autonomy and he does interfere like how he has manipulated Wax for major things. I do think though he does want his people to express free will and develop on their own as much as possible with out his interference very similar to autonomy. 

[hitkay]

Before the next chapters of The Lost Metal drop, I'd like to discuss Odium as a candidate for Trell.

We know that Odium is very scared of Harmony, although this is partly because he doesn't know how limited Harmony actually is. Still, Harmony is more powerful than Odium, though Odium could probably beat him. This gives us a strong motive for Odium wanting to go after Harmony, and we know that he is "making plans" to do this, and that he has had some kind of influence on Scadrial in the past. We even know that he is allied to at least one non-Autonomy force in the cosmere - as stated in a WoB, "Odium has his fingers in a LOT of things".

Essentially, it's reasonable to consider Odium. Even though Sazed knows of Odium and doesn't recognize trellium, he has likely never encountered Odium's Investiture and has only heard about him from Hoid. As for evidence:

• Trell and Odium are both associated with the colors red and gold. Red is the color of corrupted Investiture, yes, but Miles and the Cycle both mention the "the men of gold and red" in reference to Trell. I also mentioned in a previous post that The Lost Metal said trellium was gold, but I was wrong: as with Shadows of Self it's described as silver with dark red "rusting". Though raysium is gold, not silver, trellium could be an alloy.
• While we're discussing trellium, we know from Oathbringer and a WoB that raysium functions comparably to hemalurgy.
• Moelach's Death Rattles are very reminiscent of Miles' and the Cycle's final words.
• Wax is overwhelmed by "dread and destruction" when he observes Trell, which is reminiscent of Odium showing Dalinar his true form.
• The kandra aren't entirely sure why Paalm became so murderous, but this could be explained if the spike was from Odium. Additionally, passion is a strong motive for Paalm, and this is what Odium repeatedly claims he represents. A trellium spike could have brought this out in Paalm, or maybe Odium's spiel was what convinced her to act against Harmony and put it in - "I know pain. I am the only god who does. The only one who cares."
• With Trell's Faceless Immortals, Odium seems to be mimicking the kandra, either by creating new ones somehow or by corrupting existing ones like Paalm. This could be his usual MO, as he either corrupted Honor or Cultivation's spren to make Voidspren, or copied them. It's probably possible for Odium to create new Faceless Immortals, as the chimeras in Shadows of Self were well beyond Rashek's ability.

While looking into this, I found another WoB that confirms Paalm's trellium spike stopped Harmony from controlling her because it was an unknown metal to Harmony, so we can take "trellium spikes seem to fit Autonomy's Intent" off the list of evidence for her. There's still more evidence for her than for Odium, but Odium has been too overlooked.

EDIT: linked to WoBs rather than citing them in full, hopefully I didn't mix any of them up.

Edited November 1, 2022 by hitkay

[Ixthos]

@hitkay, just a brief interjection, but you may find it helpful to post the Arcanum links rather than just to reference them, as when you post a direct link to the page, or directly quote from it, it makes it easier for others to see the particular quote from Brandon that you are referring to.

 

For example, with your reference to the San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020), you can highlight the entry's name in Arcanum and post it here, as shown in this sentence, or click share and then paste, like this https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009, or click copy, go to your post, make a quote box, and post it in, as shown below:

Quote

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Either way, I think you might find this helpful, and it will ease others in following your quote chain. Hope you're having a good one!

[StormingTexan]

50 minutes ago, hitkay said:

While looking into this, I found another WoB that confirms Paalm's trellium spike stopped Harmony from controlling her because it was an unknown metal to Harmony (Shadows of Self San Jose signing, October 9, 2015), so we can take "trellium spikes seem to fit Autonomy's Intent" off the list of evidence for her. There's still more evidence for her than for Odium, though, and narratively I think she makes more sense. But I also think Odium has been too overlooked.

Yes unknown but also because she only had one spike instead of at least two. Paalm's primary motivation was "freeing" everyone from Harmony's control so I would say that fits in with Autonomy at least from her motivation POV. 

My only big objection to it being Odium is the timeline just does not make since especially with what happens in RoW. Not saying it is impossible but a pretty huge obstacle to overcome with the continuity. I also think it is a bit of a red hearing because a lot of what you said is true but somewhat a little too obvious. I also think Autonomy is a little too obvious as well. This will be a pretty major reveal and I guess I just expect it to be something we did not expect similar to the before mentioned event in RoW. 

 

[hitkay]

39 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

My only big objection to it being Odium is the timeline just does not make since especially with what happens in RoW. Not saying it is impossible but a pretty huge obstacle to overcome with the continuity.

Do we have confirmation that The Lost Metal takes place after Rhythm of War? At the start of The Lost Metal, no kandra has apparently been to Roshar (or at the very least, spent a significant amount of time there), which I figured placed it before Oathbringer. We have a WoB that says the worldhopping kandra is Harmony's agent, not a rogue kandra, and that it's female, so I figured MeLaan was being set up as that kandra. But if we do have confirmation then I agree, this is the main argument against the theory.

39 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I also think it is a bit of a red hearing because a lot of what you said is true but somewhat a little too obvious. I also think Autonomy is a little too obvious as well. This will be a pretty major reveal and I guess I just expect it to be something we did not expect similar to the before mentioned event in RoW.

I'd also like to pose the theory that Trell is the survival Shard. We've known about it since 2011, so technically, technically, it doesn't contradict the WoB that Trell was a Shard we already knew. Its recent change in priorities may have led to an attempt to take control of Scadrial, either because it was easy/convenient or because of its significance in the Cosmere, and it may have an association with Kelsier and the Ghostbloods, who are trying to source Investiture for it. This is why Mraize believes the Ghostbloods are the most powerful group in the Cosmere: they have the full support of an entire Shard. If this Shard is Invention, as sometimes suggested, then this may explain why Trell seems to have taken an interest in Scadrian technology.

It's very unlikely but it's the only completely unexpected option I can think of that also seems remotely plausible except, I don't know, maybe Cultivation. I've seen a lot of arguments for Autonomy, the Dor (or specifically Dominion), and Discord, more for any of those three than for Odium, actually. I don't think Trell will be as surprising as it will be interesting and that's the way I'd prefer it to be.

Edited October 31, 2022 by hitkay

[hitkay]

Just to comment on the Odium theory in the light of the new chapters (and the Autonomy theory, I guess).

2 hours ago, hitkay said:

• The kandra aren't entirely sure why Paalm became so murderous, but this could be explained if the spike was from Odium. Additionally, passion is a strong motive for Paalm, and this is what Odium repeatedly claims he represents. A trellium spike could have brought this out in Paalm, or maybe Odium's spiel was what convinced her to act against Harmony and put it in - "I know pain. I am the only god who does. The only one who cares."

This is mentioned but not resolved:

“The way Paalm… acted was a direct result of her decision to remove one of her spikes,” VenDell said. “The trellium spikes may have exacerbated her ailment, but were not the root cause.”

“Harmony implied otherwise to me.”

[Necessary Eagle]

Trillium, you say?

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

I think you may be on to something.