Am I the only one who doesn't hate Moash?

[Returned]

3 hours ago, hitkay said:

I agree that he doesn't seem to have anything left to do, but was he really all that important in Rhythm of War? And why make him blind if his narrative is complete?

Is it possible that we haven't really seen his true narrative purpose yet? Maybe Oathbringer and Rhythm of War are just BrandoSando struggling to find a use for him but wanting to keep him relevant because he'll be important later.

Sure he was. We don't get the same struggle for Kaladin without Vyre harrying him, and we don't get what happened to Teft either. But in Rhythm he's less of a character than he is an antagonist to characters. A rival, an obstacle to struggle against and defeat, and a display of information that matters/will matter, but not much more than that. The same way that Amaram was in Oathbringer: he mattered, but mostly in the narrative role he occupied and maybe was not so unique in filling that role. Moash's theme is rejecting ideals of Radiance, embracing Odium's philosophies (or at least, those of the old Odium), and severing bonds (first his own to Kaladin, then humanity, then Jezrien, then Teft).

His being blinded is, to my best guess, more about showing how Radiant powers interact with Odium's influence than it is about Moash himself. The real significance strikes me more as forcing him to confront the things Odium numbed him to, perhaps destroying Vyre and devastating Moash (or what remains of him). I think that he is a relic of the old Odium, and making him blind undercuts a lot of the dangers he represented. But we have six books to go, certainly with twists and surprises in store, and chock full of magic. Moash's eyes could be healed, he could go on to have an important extension to his narrative arc, he could just be an example to demonstrate things about the setting and story that need display, or all of the above. But Sanderson seems to be cycling new antagonists into events rather than keeping underlings and mid-bosses around indefinitely. There is no more Torol Sadeas, no more Ialai Sadeas, no more Amaram, no more Lezian, and even no more Rayse. They've all been supplanted by bigger and more consequential antagonists once their purposes are finished. Is Moash so much more important than all of those that his story will meaningfully continue among the new crop? My guess is no, but a guess is all it is.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Returned

[voidlight]

I understand Moahs's motivations so I don't completely hate him, but Vyre is just the worst.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:05 PM, Returned said:

Sure he was. We don't get the same struggle for Kaladin without Vyre harrying him, and we don't get what happened to Teft either. But in Rhythm he's less of a character than he is an antagonist to characters. A rival, an obstacle to struggle against and defeat, and a display of information that matters/will matter, but not much more than that. The same way that Amaram was in Oathbringer: he mattered, but mostly in the narrative role he occupied and maybe was not so unique in filling that role. Moash's theme is rejecting ideals of Radiance, embracing Odium's philosophies (or at least, those of the old Odium), and severing bonds (first his own to Kaladin, then humanity, then Jezrien, then Teft).

His being blinded is, to my best guess, more about showing how Radiant powers interact with Odium's influence than it is about Moash himself. The real significance strikes me more as forcing him to confront the things Odium numbed him to, perhaps destroying Vyre and devastating Moash (or what remains of him). I think that he is a relic of the old Odium, and making him blind undercuts a lot of the dangers he represented. But we have six books to go, certainly with twists and surprises in store, and chock full of magic. Moash's eyes could be healed, he could go on to have an important extension to his narrative arc, he could just be an example to demonstrate things about the setting and story that need display, or all of the above. But Sanderson seems to be cycling new antagonists into events rather than keeping underlings and mid-bosses around indefinitely. There is no more Torol Sadeas, no more Ialai Sadeas, no more Amaram, no more Lezian, and even no more Rayse. They've all been supplanted by bigger and more consequential antagonists once their purposes are finished. Is Moash so much more important than all of those that his story will meaningfully continue among the new crop? My guess is no, but a guess is all it is.

  I suspect brandon must be playing a redemption art for him or at least want to keep the possibility in his back pocket. That why he was only blind  

[Elder]

WoK Moash is at worst an annoying obstacle to Kalladin accomplishing good things with Bridge 4, but once he’s surmounted he’s ok.

WoR Moash is perfectly relatable.  No issues.

Oathbringer Moash is kinda weak in how he can’t accept responsibility, but tries to do what Kalladin did with the Parshmen outcasts.  I can definitely respect that.  Not at all angry with him for killing Elhokar, even though I wanted to see Elhokar finish saying the words, loved watching him become better.

RoW, I’m not ok with him encouraging Kalladin to suicide.  The effort he puts into breaking his friend is unconscionable.  I love how Renarin defeated him just by showing him a Lightweaving of what he could have been.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Elder

[Marabout]

I agree with your breakdown Elder.
The difference between OB Moash and RoW Moash (Vyre) is Odium’s influence / stripping of emotion.

So I have no problem with Moash’s activities or motivations pre-RoW and his actions in RoW aren’t entirely his own.

 

[Elder]

Moash might still be able to fight Kaladin, but he’ll fight in the mind.  Moash is probably not of any use in the physical world.  Maybe, just maybe, he can continue attacking Kaladin in visions.

As it stands, Moash is Kaladin’s last external conflict.  Amaram is dead.  Roshone, dead.  Liren: reconciled.

My bet: Kaladin’s last ideal and final showdown will in a vision with Moash.  This will be a battle of ideals. 
 

Moash has had a lot of trouble accepting that Kaladin could behave with honor despite everything he’s been through.  He’s never understood how anyone could have such strength.  

[Marabout]

A little off topic but I think that Kaladin’s next ideal will involve him realizing that he has to protect himself (body And mind) before he can be of any use protecting others.

[Letryx13]

On 1/15/2023 at 0:55 PM, Elder said:

WoR Moash is perfectly relatable.  No issues.

The problem is that he threw away Kaladin and Bridge Four to try and get his revenge. Even when Moash was trying to personally kill Elhokar (not a great person, but trying to do better) Kaladin offered him a way out, but Moash wouldn't take it.  Moash claimed that the king killed the only family he'd ever known, but he then threw away people who thought of and treated him as family.  Including one who'd given him the very shards Moash was using to try to kill Elhokar.

On 1/15/2023 at 0:55 PM, Elder said:

Oathbringer Moash is kinda weak in how he can’t accept responsibility, but tries to do what Kalladin did with the Parshmen outcasts.  I can definitely respect that.  Not at all angry with him for killing Elhokar, even though I wanted to see Elhokar finish saying the words, loved watching him become better.

In Oathbringer, Moash is a parallel to Dalinar more than Kaladin.  He represents what happens when people don't accept responsibility for their actions. As for killing Elhokar, what did he get for it? No satisfaction, no relief, nothing.  That's probably due to Odium's influence, but he probably wouldn't have felt much differently without it. I think the point of that is to show that this is what revenge does to people.  It twists them into something terrible, and even if they get their revenge, they have nothing afterward to show for it.

On 1/15/2023 at 0:55 PM, Elder said:

RoW, I’m not ok with him encouraging Kalladin to suicide.  The effort he puts into breaking his friend is unconscionable.  I love how Renarin defeated him just by showing him a Lightweaving of what he could have been.

I think Renarin defeated him by interfering with his connection to Odium, but this is definitely Moash at his worst.  He's trying to seek validation of his giving up by convincing Kaladin to give up.  In Moash's mind, if Kaladin gives up, then it's ok that he did too.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:33 PM, Marabout said:

I agree with your breakdown Elder.
The difference between OB Moash and RoW Moash (Vyre) is Odium’s influence / stripping of emotion.

So I have no problem with Moash’s activities or motivations pre-RoW and his actions in RoW aren’t entirely his own.

 

Yes he is

Edited January 27, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Elder]

On 1/15/2023 at 2:33 PM, Marabout said:

I agree with your breakdown Elder.
The difference between OB Moash and RoW Moash (Vyre) is Odium’s influence / stripping of emotion.

So I have no problem with Moash’s activities or motivations pre-RoW and his actions in RoW aren’t entirely his own.

 

The only issue I have with lessening Moash’s responsibility for his actions as Vyre is that he chose and still actively chooses to be Vyre.  When Vyre is stripped away, Moash begs to be Vyre again.  He can’t live with himself as Moash, so he yearns to be something worse.  

It’s like a very unhealthy addiction with terrible withdrawal really. I’m not quite versed enough with addiction recovery to say how much responsibility is involved here.

If Kaladin can reach Moash in one of these times of weakness and get him to go the other direction, that would be quite amazing.  But Moash has to choose it.  Has to want it.

[Frustration]

On 1/15/2023 at 2:33 PM, Marabout said:

I agree with your breakdown Elder.
The difference between OB Moash and RoW Moash (Vyre) is Odium’s influence / stripping of emotion.

So I have no problem with Moash’s activities or motivations pre-RoW and his actions in RoW aren’t entirely his own.

 

"I burned the Children of Rathalas. You may have been influencing me but it was my choice," - Dalinar.

People are still responsible for their actions, Odium doesn't have mind control.

[Honorless]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:06 AM, JessK said:

(ROW spoilerish discussion) Moash is not my favorite character, but he's not super hateable to me either. I have noticed a lot of people hate him, but honestly if a king left my grandparents to die in jail for no good reason, that would probably be my villain origin story too, lol.

Nope, I don't hate Moash either! There aren't a lot of us, but there are a few!

[alder24]

I agree, Moash is responsible for what he does as a Vyre, he wants to be Vyre because it's easier for him. That's just cowardness as he doesn't want to face consequences of his own actions.

As a character Moash is a well written anti-hero, I can see and understand why he is like this. It's a great character. I don't hate him. I do hate his actions, and what influence he has over other characters like Kaladin.

Edited January 27, 2023 by alder24

[Marabout]

I didn’t say Moash wasn’t Responsible for his actions.

My point was that his motivations are always clear and make sense in the context of his character.

Is it cowardly to avoid guilt by intentionally having your emotions stripped away?  Yep.

Could Moash eventually take responsibility?  Sure.

Everyone uses Dalinar as an example of good vs the evil Moash.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Dalinar followed the exact same character arc as Moash.  Dalinar Had His Memories Stripped Away to avoid the guilt and responsibility associated with his actions for YEARS before growing into the man who could say the words above.  

So why couldn’t Moash follow the same arc as Dalinar?  Does horrible things, avoids responsibility, eventually becomes a better man.

And don’t quote that one line in RoW and state that it’s proof that Moash feels no guilt.  There is plenty of evidence before he becomes Vyre that he feels guilt for his actions even if he doesn’t scream it from the mountaintops like some characters would.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Dalinar followed the exact same character arc as Moash.  Dalinar Had His Memories Stripped Away to avoid the guilt and responsibility associated with his actions for YEARS before growing into the man who could say the words above.  

So why couldn’t Moash follow the same arc as Dalinar?  Does horrible things, avoids responsibility, eventually becomes a better man.

But when Dalinar did this, he became a better man, he changed, he became a great father, honorable Highprice, and respectable leader who followed the Code of War. Moash on the other hand told Kal to kill himself, allowed Odium to torture and influence him, and killed their best friend. During that time Dalinar has changed for the better while Moash is descending further into darkness. This is not the same path. 

[Returned]

42 minutes ago, Marabout said:

And don’t quote that one line in RoW and state that it’s proof that Moash feels no guilt.  There is plenty of evidence before he becomes Vyre that he feels guilt for his actions even if he doesn’t scream it from the mountaintops like some characters would.

I think that whether or not Moash feels guilt is less important than what he actually does. The contrast to Dalinar is that, for a long time, Dalinar didn't care about the consequences of what he did because he thought that his mode of action was morally correct, or at least acceptable. To his mind there wasn't much to feel guilty about, and when there was he faced up to the consequences of his actions. My key example is sparing the young heir to Rathalas when his moral system, religious beliefs, and orders were to kill him. When the consequences of that decision came around he was 100% prepared to fix it, even as he was willing to try an unconventional (for an Alethi) route to do so. When he speaks to the Nightwatcher he doesn't want numbness, he wants forgiveness, and his treasured memories of the wife he consistently failed were the price rather than the prize. And those doesn't even include his later transition into Radiance.

Moash doesn't do that. He's never wrong, in his own mind, he's always righteous, and anything he wants is always acceptable or even the only good decision that could have been made. Who cares if he feels guilty or not when he continues to make the same decisions? Continuing with the comparison to Dalinar, it's as if he chose to keep burning cities just like he did Rathalas. That's the contrast: Dalinar felt guilt and tried to change, while Moash maybe felt guilt (I think he did), but then doubled down. And along the way he also made himself more comfortable in engaging in the same behaviors he has consistently chosen.

None of that means there can't be a redemption arc for him, but so far I don't think the "he's exactly like Dalinar" position is a very strong one.

[Marabout]

Dalinar didn’t “feel guilt and try to change”.

He drank himself into a stupor (numbing his emotions) so saying he didn’t  want numbness is just wrong.  Then he has his memories wiped, then had 5ish years to grow without the burden of his guilt.

Who knows what kind of man he would have become or what other atrocities he may have committed without Cultivation’s pruning?

It’s the same arc, we are just presented Dalinar’s in reverse so we see him as a good man from the start.  
If Gavilar hadn’t died and Jasnah hadn’t read him WoK you would see a very different Dalinar, one that could easily be seduced by Odium.

As for Moash thinking he’s never wrong, this is also false.  He expresses several times that he made the wrong choice in WoR and OB.  Does he ultimately make another wrong choice of embracing Odium?  Yep.  But again it’s the same arc, both men asked for help from a higher power, but Moash makes the wrong choice.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Dalinar followed the exact same character arc as Moash.  Dalinar Had His Memories Stripped Away to avoid the guilt and responsibility associated with his actions for YEARS before growing into the man who could say the words above.

Everyone keeps using the argument as if we didn't hate Dalinar during the middle of Oathbringer

Edited January 27, 2023 by Frustration

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Dalinar didn’t “feel guilt and try to change”.

He drank himself into a stupor (numbing his emotions) so saying he didn’t  want numbness is just wrong.  Then he has his memories wiped, then had 5ish years to grow without the burden of his guilt.

[...]

It’s the same arc, we are just presented Dalinar’s in reverse so we see him as a good man from the start.  
If Gavilar hadn’t died and Jasnah hadn’t read him WoK you would see a very different Dalinar, one that could easily be seduced by Odium.

As for Moash thinking he’s never wrong, this is also false.  He expresses several times that he made the wrong choice in WoR and OB.  Does he ultimately make another wrong choice of embracing Odium?  Yep.  But again it’s the same arc, both men asked for help from a higher power, but Moash makes the wrong choice.

As in my post, I'm referring specifically to Dalinar's trying to accommodate Evi's wishes about a massacre and, later, his interaction with the Nightwatcher. He did go in for numbness, too, but these examples are things for which Moash doesn't have any analogues. Moash ditches the guilt and then goes on doing the exact same things that made him feel guilty in the first place, even while retaining the full memories of his actions. Again, Moash's story (narratively so far, I'm not saying the situations are identical) is equivalent to burning Rathalas, always remembering it, and having his guilt removed so that he can keep razing cities full of innocent people to the ground. I'm prepared to believe that Dalinar might have come out a lot more like Moash now without Gavilar, Jasnah, and WoK, plus the Cultivation's intervention, but he did receive those interventions. Moash, on the other hand, got his own intervention from Odium. This seems to me like a sign of difference between the two, not a similarity.

I could see an argument that Moash trying to help the abused Singers in Oathbringer is an effort to change and improve, though I don't find it persuasive. If and when we see Moash do anything to try to improve or come to terms with what he's done, then I might see more merit in your argument. But so far the only evidence that he will be redeemed is that you're asserting that he will because someone else was. I think it's unreasonable to conclude that the arcs are the same when Moash's current situation is equally consistent with a totally different outcome. Though by the same token Dalinar's story isn't done either-- if he winds up as Odium's champion he'll probably look a lot more like Moash does now, and I think that there would be a lot of interesting parallels to Moash's story.

I'm not trying to argue you out of your view that Moash is on the road to redemption of one sort or another, just that it's not a foregone conclusion and that similar themes might be a contrast rather than a guarantee of identicality. 

[Marabout]

Let’s take the debate to the next level…

If he does keep following a similar character arc… I think Moash will be the third Bondsmith.

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"

The fallen title could refer to Vyre or the title could just be “Bondsmith” in which case you would get the tower (Navani), the crown (Dalinar), and the spear (Moash).

But that’s just a possibility..

I never said that Moash will definitely have a redemption arc, just that it’s still possible.  As you correctly pointed out, it would also be sound writing for Dalinar and Moash to follow the same arc but then show a divergence or inflection point where one character’s actions led to glory and the other to despair.  

But the whole point of this thread is whether people hate Moash and I don’t.  He made bad choices and ended up in a situation (by his own doing sure) where he had no support system.  Dalinar would have likely fallen deeper into despair if he didn’t have a family to support him.  The real inflection point here is when Jasnah reads him WoK.  Before that, there is no hint that he was trying to be a better man.  If Moash had had this “ah ha” moment things could have turned out differently for him.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Before that, there is no hint that he was trying to be a better man.

But he did show regret, like when he told Sadeas to pull the archers back, or when he speaks to Eshonai at the shattered plains in the RoW flashbacks.

Moash does not regret his actions.

[Elder]

3 hours ago, Marabout said:

Dalinar didn’t “feel guilt and try to change”.

He drank himself into a stupor (numbing his emotions) so saying he didn’t  want numbness is just wrong.  Then he has his memories wiped, then had 5ish years to grow without the burden of his guilt.

Who knows what kind of man he would have become or what other atrocities he may have committed without Cultivation’s pruning?

It’s the same arc, we are just presented Dalinar’s in reverse so we see him as a good man from the start.  
If Gavilar hadn’t died and Jasnah hadn’t read him WoK you would see a very different Dalinar, one that could easily be seduced by Odium.

As for Moash thinking he’s never wrong, this is also false.  He expresses several times that he made the wrong choice in WoR and OB.  Does he ultimately make another wrong choice of embracing Odium?  Yep.  But again it’s the same arc, both men asked for help from a higher power, but Moash makes the wrong choice.

Moash realizes he messed up, but he gratefully buys Odium’s line that he couldn’t possibly have done any better.  Problem is, he can’t handle how Kaladin demonstrably refutes this.  Hence he feels the necessity to try and break Kaladin.  As far as Moash is concerned, Kaladin is a freak for not jumping into the Honor Chasm back in WoK.  
 

If Kaladin can beat Moash on a philosophical level, maybe Moash can be redeemed. 
 

then again, until he decides he can be better, he never will be.

[Marabout]

Moash Did show regret from his actions in WoR and OB before being Vyre.

I’d pull up the quotes but I’m lazy.

They are all in Moash POV chapters and like most POVs they are personality-appropriate to the owner of the POV.  In other words, his regret is made in simple statements as Moash isn’t the most thoughtful or emotional character.

But I’ll stop commenting here.  Those who are dead set on hating Moash won’t change their opinion.  Either you believe Moash showed regret pre-Vyre or you don’t.  To be honest I’m not even sure why we’re debating this, Moash didn’t even kill anyone in WoR.  The only thing he would reasonably regret is betraying Kaladin.  And when you look at it, Kaladin Agreed to the plan and changed his mind at the last minute so in a way He betrayed Moash.  Moash still clearly regretted “betraying” Kaladin pre-Vyre.

/shrug

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Moash Did show regret from his actions in WoR and OB before being Vyre.

I’d pull up the quotes but I’m lazy.

They are all in Moash POV chapters and like most POVs they are personality-appropriate to the owner of the POV.  In other words, his regret is made in simple statements as Moash isn’t the most thoughtful or emotional character.

But I’ll stop commenting here.  Those who are dead set on hating Moash won’t change their opinion.  Either you believe Moash showed regret pre-Vyre or you don’t.  To be honest I’m not even sure why we’re debating this, Moash didn’t even kill anyone in WoR.  The only thing he would reasonably regret is betraying Kaladin.  And when you look at it, Kaladin Agreed to the plan and changed his mind at the last minute so in a way He betrayed Moash.  Moash still clearly regretted “betraying” Kaladin pre-Vyre.

/shrug

I don't think you're right. Moash might felt guilt, but he didn't show any regret. There is a difference between feeling and showing. How many cities did Dalinar burn after Rathalas? How many people did he kill between Rathalas and visiting the Nightwatcher? None. He suffered heavy trauma because of his actions and this changed him. He stopped being that person. What did Moash do? He killed Elhokar, then Jezrien, then Roshone, then nameless Radiant, then Teft, and then almost Navani. He never stopped. He just kept going and was doing the same thing over and over again. Where did he show any remorse between all those killings? Showed, not felt! Dalinar was crying in his room, while hearing screams of those he killed, but Moash was killing more and more people. And I'm telling you this as a not-Moash-hater. 

[Elder]

I’m going to say that Moash’s problem is that he doesn’t want redemption.  He’d rather be worse (Vyre) than try to be better.  He feels bad about what he’s done (when he’s forced to feel), but until he reacts to that by even desiring to change rather than running from it, he won’t change.