Brgst13

More evidence that Dalinar holds a Dawnshard

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This evidence is a bit piecemeal, but seems compelling when taken together.

First:

luiz_m2

Is the fact that Hoid has been a Dawnshard related in some way with the "bearer of the first gem" title?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes indeed.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

So from this we know that the first gem is at least related to a Dawnshard.

Second:

From Frost's letter to Hoid: "Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?"

So we know that the gemstone, which is at least related to the Dawnshard, is dead.

Third:

As Dalinar opens Honor's Perpendicularity, Odium screams "We killed you!  We killed you!"

Putting these three together, it is reasonable to conclude that Dalinar now holds the Dawnshard Hoid once carried.  For some reason, Hoid believed that the Dawnshard was "dead".  This is possibly due to the fact that Odium's forces killed the previous bearer (Nohadon?).  Dalinar experienced a warm, deep-seated glow, similar to Rysn's experience, "Not of [the Stormfather], nor of gods".  Odium recognized Dalinar as the bearer of the Dawnshard and freaked.

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Dalinar sees a bright visible word-light when he hears Jasnah reading The Way of Kings at Gavial's funeral. I have suspected for a while that the glowing light he heard/saw was something important. Perhaps the words were a dawnshard held in Nohadon's words. 

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2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

This evidence is a bit piecemeal, but seems compelling when taken together.

First:

luiz_m2

Is the fact that Hoid has been a Dawnshard related in some way with the "bearer of the first gem" title?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes indeed.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

So from this we know that the first gem is at least related to a Dawnshard.

Second:

From Frost's letter to Hoid: "Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?"

So we know that the gemstone, which is at least related to the Dawnshard, is dead.

Third:

As Dalinar opens Honor's Perpendicularity, Odium screams "We killed you!  We killed you!"

Putting these three together, it is reasonable to conclude that Dalinar now holds the Dawnshard Hoid once carried.  For some reason, Hoid believed that the Dawnshard was "dead".  This is possibly due to the fact that Odium's forces killed the previous bearer (Nohadon?).  Dalinar experienced a warm, deep-seated glow, similar to Rysn's experience, "Not of [the Stormfather], nor of gods".  Odium recognized Dalinar as the bearer of the Dawnshard and freaked.

If it was a Dawnshard that would have counted as of 'gods'

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Would it?  I assume here that "Gods" here referred to the 16 Shards.  Why do you think this would include Dawnshards?

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5 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Putting these three together, it is reasonable to conclude that Dalinar now holds the Dawnshard Hoid once carried.

It's a reasonable enough conclusion, in that none of the three details contradicts it, but pretty far from definitive. We just have too little information to make reliable inferences on so many things, related to the Dawnshards or not...

We don't know that the First Gem Hoid once carried is the same thing as the gemstone Frost references; Roshar is a particularly difficult place to assume one gemstone is the gemstone. We can say that Dalinar's experience while hearing The Way of Kings read to him on the night of Gavilar's funeral is mystical and significant (I think so), and a Dawnshard would be both of those, but Dawnshards are obviously not the only mystical and significant things in the Cosmere. We can say that Dawnshards aren't Shards of Adonalsium, and therefore aren't "of gods", but we also know that Dawnshards are deity-scale in power and scope (even shattering Adonalsium, potentially) and therefore might be "of gods". It's just an assertion either way. Dalinar had a warm feeling, like what Rysn experienced, but didn't have all of the same experiences that Rysn did (like enhanced colors). Does that mean that he doesn't hold a Dawnshard, or that he does but his is different, or that we just don't know enough about how Dawnshards work?

For me, it's too many assumptions built on other assumptions in order to reach a pre-held conclusion. Dalinar may well hold a Dawnshard, and the points you've identified may indeed be evidence of it. But to say that the three alone definitely indicate that is a bridge too far for me right now. It's like saying that  because Torol Sadeas was killed with a Shardbearer's maneuver means that Adolin killed him. Both are true, but only knowing the former really isn't enough to support the latter on its own.

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I can understand your point.  This is why I titled the post "More evidence" rather than "proof".  I do agree that it is not definitive but Dalinar is the best candidate we have for the second dawnshard.  Beyond laying out the evidence I was largely theorizing on how all of this might fit together.  I do agree that we have little information available.

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8 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I can understand your point.  This is why I titled the post "More evidence" rather than "proof".  I do agree that it is not definitive but Dalinar is the best candidate we have for the second dawnshard.  Beyond laying out the evidence I was largely theorizing on how all of this might fit together.  I do agree that we have little information available.

Reading my post again I think I could have been clearer. I think that the points you raise are interesting and suggestive, especially together. I think that the theory has merit, and given that there aren't all that many Dawnshards out there we should pay attention to the potential connections you've drawn. I'm not sold on the bits with the gem (Dalinar could just as easily have a Dawnshard that isn't the one Hoid once carried), but the other bits are pretty intriguing. I also really like the point that @teknopathetic raised about Dalinar's experience with The Way of Kings on the night of Gavilar's funeral.

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While I also think that Dalinar is a Dawnshard holder (or rather, is becoming a Dawnshard*), I don't think that the "we killed you" points to that. I think Rayse's rant still has to do with Honor and his death and his Cognitive Shadow and power. 

 

Although that does raise (heh) an interesting theory - what if one or more of the Heralds helped splinter Honor, and that's part of why they're all insane now?

 

*My crackpot theory is that Ba-Ado-Mishram is/was a Dawnshard and but since she's trapped (and Unmade), the power of a Dawnshard and its Spiritual component sought out a new host in the form of Dalinar. (My other Crackpot theory is that Lift may also be or hold a Dawnshard.)

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Dalinar sees a bright visible word-light when he hears Jasnah reading The Way of Kings at Gavial's funeral. I have suspected for a while that the glowing light he heard/saw was something important. Perhaps the words were a dawnshard held in Nohadon's words. 

Actually, he doesn't see any light before or during the reading. OB Ch 105:

Spoiler

Dalinar dropped the keys again, sobbing. There was no escape. He would fall again. Wine would consume him like a fire consumed a corpse. Leaving only ash.

There was no way out.

“This started my journey,” the voice said. “And this begins my writings. I cannot call this book a story, for it fails at its most fundamental to be a story. It is not one narrative, but many. And though it has a beginning, here on this page, my quest can never truly end.

“I wasn’t seeking answers. I felt that I had those already. Plenty, in multitude, from a thousand different sources. I wasn’t seeking ‘myself.’ This is a platitude that people have ascribed to me, and I find the phrase lacks meaning.

“In truth, by leaving, I was seeking only one thing.

“A journey.”

For years, it seemed that Dalinar had been seeing everything around him through a haze. But those words … something about them …

Could words give off light?

He turned from his door and walked down the corridor, searching for the source of the voice. Inside the royal reading room, he found Jasnah with a huge tome set before her at a standing table. She read to herself, turning to the next page, scowling.

“What is that book?” Dalinar asked.

Jasnah started. She wiped her eyes, smearing the makeup, leaving her eyes … clean, but raw. Holes in a mask.

“This is where my father got that quote,” she said. “The one he…”

The one he wrote as he died.

Only a few knew of that.

“What book is it?”

“An old text,” Jasnah said. “Ancient, once well regarded. It’s associated with the Lost Radiants, so nobody references it anymore. There has to be some secret here, a puzzle behind my father’s last words. A cipher? But what?”

Dalinar settled down into one of the seats. He felt as if he had no strength. “Will you read it to me?”

He was in a haze (likely withdrawal), and hearing Jasnah's voice lifted that haze. Nowhere does it mention "seeing" light - only that hearing the words made him think of light. Personally, I think it was the start of the Connection that led to the visions and eventually his Nahel bond with The Stormfather.

Edited by Treamayne
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8 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Would it?  I assume here that "Gods" here referred to the 16 Shards.  Why do you think this would include Dawnshards?

Because they are commands given by Adonalsium himself. And since The Stormfather is aware of Adonalsium, I have a hard time thinking of him calling one of his acts lesser than that of the shards.

Additionally in that same quote he calls it just an ordinary dream.

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Posted (edited)

On 2022-10-04 at 7:17 PM, Treamayne said:

Actually, he doesn't see any light before or during the reading. OB Ch 105:

  Hide contents

Dalinar dropped the keys again, sobbing. There was no escape. He would fall again. Wine would consume him like a fire consumed a corpse. Leaving only ash.

There was no way out.

“This started my journey,” the voice said. “And this begins my writings. I cannot call this book a story, for it fails at its most fundamental to be a story. It is not one narrative, but many. And though it has a beginning, here on this page, my quest can never truly end.

“I wasn’t seeking answers. I felt that I had those already. Plenty, in multitude, from a thousand different sources. I wasn’t seeking ‘myself.’ This is a platitude that people have ascribed to me, and I find the phrase lacks meaning.

“In truth, by leaving, I was seeking only one thing.

“A journey.”

For years, it seemed that Dalinar had been seeing everything around him through a haze. But those words … something about them …

Could words give off light?

He turned from his door and walked down the corridor, searching for the source of the voice. Inside the royal reading room, he found Jasnah with a huge tome set before her at a standing table. She read to herself, turning to the next page, scowling.

“What is that book?” Dalinar asked.

Jasnah started. She wiped her eyes, smearing the makeup, leaving her eyes … clean, but raw. Holes in a mask.

“This is where my father got that quote,” she said. “The one he…”

The one he wrote as he died.

Only a few knew of that.

“What book is it?”

“An old text,” Jasnah said. “Ancient, once well regarded. It’s associated with the Lost Radiants, so nobody references it anymore. There has to be some secret here, a puzzle behind my father’s last words. A cipher? But what?”

Dalinar settled down into one of the seats. He felt as if he had no strength. “Will you read it to me?”

He was in a haze (likely withdrawal), and hearing Jasnah's voice lifted that haze. Nowhere does it mention "seeing" light - only that hearing the words made him think of light. Personally, I think it was the start of the Connection that led to the visions and eventually his Nahel bond with The Stormfather.

Thank you for finding the direct quote, but I still take that as Dalinar seeing some form of radiance in the words that are being spoken.  

To me, the phrase “could words give off light” to me is showing that Dalinar is experiencing something visual and out of the ordinary. A person would only think that if they were experiencing something like seeing a bit of light. 

And while it could be a connection to the Stormfather or honour or anything, everything is just conjecture. I would say SA5 Prologue gives us a hint that the words in that book could be more than they appear, but that’s far from being a sure thing. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Thank you for finding the direct quote

No worries. I have them in Calibre on my PC, so it's fairly easy to open the epub and CTRL+F. . .

Quote

To me, the phrase “could words give off light” to me is showing that Dalinar is experiencing something visual and out of the ordinary. A person would only think that if they were experiencing something like seeing a bit of light. 

And while it could be a connection to the Stormfather or honour or anything, everything is just conjecture. I would say SA5 Prologue gives us a hint that the words in that book could be more than they appear, but that’s far from being a sure thing. 

To me, Jasnah's in a room he can't see, down the hall and around the corner. I find the phrase "Could words give off light?" to be metaphorical in that they have cut through his mental fugue and reached his psyche. I've seen and experienced when something heard (quote, song, speech) turns on the metaphorical lightbulb (eureka moment) and that was what I got out of that scene - the mental wake-up call and the start of his Radiant bond.

I'm avoiding spoilers for anything unpublished; so if that factors in, I'll have to trust your logic.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

No worries. I have them in Calibre on my PC, so it's fairly easy to open the epub and CTRL+F. . .

To me, Jasnah's in a room he can't see, down the hall and around the corner. I find the phrase "Could words give off light?" to be metaphorical in that they have cut through his mental fugue and reached his psyche. I've seen and experienced when something heard (quote, song, speech) turns on the metaphorical lightbulb (eureka moment) and that was what I got out of that scene - the mental wake-up call and the start of his Radiant bond.

I'm avoiding spoilers for anything unpublished; so if that factors in, I'll have to trust your logic.

Don't read into the SP5 thing. It is not evidence at all for what we are talking about. My vagueness spoils nothing and no talk of light or whatever occurs and I was just referencing something only tangentially related =) 

And I see your point but still lean my way. It is interesting that it can be read so differently. Tricksy tricky Brandon. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Posted (edited)

To paraphrase GRRM, "The parrot is a tricksy bird."

Edited by Brgst13
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