Cultivation + Odium cont. from KoW = ???

[Cosfan4472]

On 04/10/2022 at 1:21 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Eugenics actually sounds exactly like the kind of thing Taravangian would gravitate towards. An interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's hateful enough. Eugenics is more pragmatic than hateful. I could certainly see Cultivation being involved, but I feel like Odium would make it more aggressive, that's why I went the way I did.

Conservation feels like the same thing as Preservation to me. I've always viewed chaos as the natural opposite of Cultivation (change without reason vs change with purpose) and now that we know Whimsy exists I think it fills that spot nicely. I would still say that a grudge match between Roshar and Scadrial is coming soon though.

As a side note, hatred towards those who don't cultivate nature, humanity or personal growth sounds an awful lot like hatred towards lazy people, which I think would make for a pretty funny Intent for a Shard.

Except Conservation is not the same thing as Preservation. They are different aspects of similar concepts for different tasks.

Conservation means allowing a state to be stable, but allowing growth, change and decay where the state it is conserving evolves into a new existence than when it started. For example, a seed from a tree is allowed to grow back into a tree, and totally changing its entire structure in the process, then creates a seed, and also allows that tree to wither and die. Conservation allows that to occur.

Preservation means allowing a state to be stable, but it only allows growth and change. Decay is forbidden, because it stops evolution of whatever it is preserving into a totally new state of existence. For example, water from a river will evaporate into a cloud and return to the river as rain, going through all its cycles, from ice to steam, but it stays water, with its entire makeup the entire time. Decay is absent from this cycle, so water will never be allowed to cease to be water in its existence, like the tree is allowed.

Conservation deals mostly with living things and minerals that are finite. Once that state ends, those become elements and forces, and then Preservation takes over.

Preservation deals mostly with elements and forces that are vast and infinite, but shares its resources with Conservation.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Cosfan4472

[SwordNimiForPresident]

4 hours ago, Cosfan4472 said:

Except Conservation is not the same thing as Preservation. They are different aspects of similar concepts for different tasks.

Conservation means allowing a state to be stable, but allowing growth, change and decay where the state it is conserving evolves into a new existence than when it started. For example, a seed from a tree is allowed to grow back into a tree, and totally changing its entire structure in the process, then creates a seed, and also allows that tree to wither and die. Conservation allows that to occur.

Preservation means allowing a state to be stable, but it only allows growth and change. Decay is forbidden, because it stops evolution of whatever it is preserving into a totally new state of existence. For example, water from a river will evaporate into a cloud and return to the river as rain, going through all its cycles, from ice to steam, but it stays water, with its entire makeup the entire time. Decay is absent from this cycle, so water will never be allowed to cease to be water in its existence, like the tree is allowed.

Conservation deals mostly with living things and minerals that are finite. Once that state ends, those become elements and forces, and then Preservation takes over.

Preservation deals mostly with elements and forces that are vast and infinite, but shares its resources with Conservation.

 

I see, you're talking about Conservation in the form of forestry or land management. I was thinking of it in terms of physics, since that is a more Universal concept. Conservation, at least in the land management sense, seems a bit limited in scope to be a composite Shard.

Here's a copy paste of what conservation means in physics just for reference:

"In physics, the term conservation refers to something which doesn't change. This means that the variable in an equation which represents a conserved quantity is constant over time. It has the same value both before and after an event"

[teknopathetic]

22 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I see, you're talking about Conservation in the form of forestry or land management. I was thinking of it in terms of physics, since that is a more Universal concept. Conservation, at least in the land management sense, seems a bit limited in scope to be a composite Shard.

Here's a copy paste of what conservation means in physics just for reference:

"In physics, the term conservation refers to something which doesn't change. This means that the variable in an equation which represents a conserved quantity is constant over time. It has the same value both before and after an event"

I think we would need to go with a "nature/living-system" definition based on what Cultivation would bring to the equation. 

[Spearguy]

I think that the best way to describe cultivation is progression or expanding 

so a combo of Odium and Cultivation would be growing emotion.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I think we would need to go with a "nature/living-system" definition based on what Cultivation would bring to the equation. 

That seems to be how many people are choosing to see Cultivation. In my opinion it is the least relevant part of the Shard's Intent.

First I just want to point out that Cultivation (at least in the agricultural sense that I assume you're using it) is basically the opposite of nature. You can't build a farm field in a forest without getting rid of the forest (and even if it's an orchard you still need to get rid of everything other than what you're growing). You're also removing all of the natural competition for the plants that your are cultivating which is very unnatural. Nature is chaos (Whimsy IMO) bounded by competition, where Cultivation is organized and goal oriented.

Additionally, Cultivation has meaning far beyond farming. It is about controlling conditions or shaping environments to achieve the desired changes. This is a "high level" concept that can be more broadly applied to many parts of the Universe, not just farms. I think reducing Cultivation to some sort of plant god doesn't fit with the other Shards either. You have Universal concepts like entropy and stasis or love and hate, and then you have trees? It's to small to be a Shard. In my opinion Cultivation is about directed change, and agriculture is just one small example of how that concept can be applied.

[teknopathetic]

28 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

That seems to be how many people are choosing to see Cultivation. In my opinion it is the least relevant part of the Shard's Intent.

First I just want to point out that Cultivation (at least in the agricultural sense that I assume you're using it) is basically the opposite of nature. You can't build a farm field in a forest without getting rid of the forest (and even if it's an orchard you still need to get rid of everything other than what you're growing). You're also removing all of the natural competition for the plants that your are cultivating which is very unnatural. Nature is chaos (Whimsy IMO) bounded by competition, where Cultivation is organized and goal oriented.

Additionally, Cultivation has meaning far beyond farming. It is about controlling conditions or shaping environments to achieve the desired changes. This is a "high level" concept that can be more broadly applied to many parts of the Universe, not just farms. I think reducing Cultivation to some sort of plant god doesn't fit with the other Shards either. You have Universal concepts like entropy and stasis or love and hate, and then you have trees? It's to small to be a Shard. In my opinion Cultivation is about directed change, and agriculture is just one small example of how that concept can be applied.

I agreee Cultivation has more to do with things than just farming. It also has to do with personal cultivation (the devotaries), societal cultivation, and artistic cultivation. But to me, Cultivation is the intentional selection of elements and the intentional work one outs in to shape "what comes next" instead of it staying as it would be naturally. Cultivation is the fight against entropy and the desire to make new orders that are also well balanced. 

And nature is a fight against entropy. It is collecting elements and making them into high-complexity states. What is more complex than a Human Woman who paints pictures of flowers? That is as far from entropy as possible. Her society has been cultivated. Her gender expressions have been cultivated. The food she eats has ben cultivated. The art she works had to achieve has been cultivated. Everything about the woman is a fight to make the system more complex and less entropic. And the goal isn't to preserve what she has, but to take the best of herself and her world, and to sprout something new from that. 

Odium + Cultivation would need to be Targeted Change + Hatred/Passion. I have seen some people think "Revolution" which makes sense if the person leans more towards Odium. I prefer Conservation as that means defending what you are growing and asking out at threats to what might take your conservation off course. But who knows? "Freedom" is also something I have seen thrown around for the combination "Being able to grow yourself and not caring what others want of you" 

 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Cultivation is the fight against entropy and the desire to make new orders that are also well balanced. 

And nature is a fight against entropy. It is collecting elements and making them into high-complexity states.

I don't want to come across as pedantic, but entropy is the tendency of a system to become more complex, it is nature.

I can semi agree about Cultivation being a fight against entropy. It's more like guiding than fighting though. It's controlling entropy to achieve the desired end state.

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Odium + Cultivation would need to be Targeted Change + Hatred/Passion. I have seen some people think "Revolution" which makes sense if the person leans more towards Odium. I prefer Conservation as that means defending what you are growing and asking out at threats to what might take your conservation off course. But who knows? "Freedom" is also something I have seen thrown around for the combination "Being able to grow yourself and not caring what others want of you"

I could see revolution being a combo of Autonomy and Odium, but I don't see it for Cultivation though.

I've seen people call it freedom as well, but that is literally Autonomy.

[teknopathetic]

4 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't want to come across as pedantic, but entropy is the tendency of a system to become more complex, it is nature.

Well now I am confused and generally want to make sure i have this right in my brain. But maybe I’m wrong! 

I was always taught entropy is a measure of how much unusable energy was in a system. When I google this I get a similar result.
 

Systems don’t tend to become more complex without energy/effort being added in directly. Systems almost always tend change from low entropy to high entropy unless there is something actively “organizing” things. That could be energy binding atoms or people building lego castles.  
 

That is, entropy is a measure of how disorganized a system is. If something is high entropy, then it’s a system that has been pulled apart and doesn’t have much organizational energy left.
 

Over time the universe will go from Low Entropy (organized with usable energy) to High Entropy (heat death of the universe; nothing organized in mechanically useful ways) 

For example, a tree would have low entropy and a pile or random atoms would have high entropy.

So ruin would be entropy, Cultivation would be organization, and preservation would be stasis. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by teknopathetic

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah Cultivation probably isn't really a "nature deity" though she's viewed as that in some Rosharan cultures - kind of a "Mother Earth (Roshar)" figure.

 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

So ruin would be entropy, Cultivation would be organization, and preservation would be stasis. 

Ruin is definitely entropy and Preservation is stasis (both mentioned in WoB) but I think Cultivation, like Honor or Devotion, is more about actions than a pure force of nature. Cultivation I think is about directing or shaping growth - not growth itself necessarily. (Which could conceivably be under Ambition.)

Whimsy might be random change for its own sake?

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Well now I am confused and generally want to make sure i have this right in my brain. But maybe I’m wrong! 

I was always taught entropy is a measure of how much unusable energy was in a system. When I google this I get a similar result.
 

Systems don’t tend to become more complex without energy/effort being added in directly. Systems almost always tend change from low entropy to high entropy unless there is something actively “organizing” things. That could be energy binding atoms or people building lego castles.  
 

That is, entropy is a measure of how disorganized a system is. If something is high entropy, then it’s a system that has been pulled apart and doesn’t have much organizational energy left.
 

Over time the universe will go from Low Entropy (organized with usable energy) to High Entropy (heat death of the universe; nothing organized in mechanically useful ways) 

For example, a tree would have low entropy and a pile or random atoms would have high entropy.

So ruin would be entropy, Cultivation would be organization, and preservation would be stasis. 

I suppose I worded that badly. I was trying to express the tendency of systems to increase in entropy. I would consider the high entropy state to be more complex since it has more information, but I could see how you could go the other, more macroscopic, way with it.

I couldn't agree more that "ruin would be entropy, Cultivation would be organization, and preservation would be stasis". This is exactly how I would define them as well. I would also add Whimsy into the mix as chaos though, just to complete the set.

[Proletariat]

Perhaps this is a bit left field, but what about Infection, Plague, or even Mutation? A violent and destructive process that can create change, and given that both Cultivation and Odium had at some point been affiliated with Ashyn the form of investiture there could be a hint.

[teknopathetic]

14 hours ago, Proletariat said:

Perhaps this is a bit left field, but what about Infection, Plague, or even Mutation? A violent and destructive process that can create change, and given that both Cultivation and Odium had at some point been affiliated with Ashyn the form of investiture there could be a hint.

Interesting thought. It also made me think of Vendetta (Cultivation of anger) 

[Leuthie]

Cultivation isn't growth, it's the facilitation of growth. Growth happens as a result of processes, so it isn't a piece of personality that can be shattered off of a person and made manifest. Cultivation, as a piece of an individual's motivations, is about putting those processes into motion and nurturing their progress.

Odium isn't hate, it's the facilitation of hate. Hate is an emotion resulting from reactions to actions, so it isn't a piece of a personality that can be shattered off of a person and made manifest. Odium, as a piece of an individual's motivations, is about creating the actions and conditions that lead to hate. 

Odium believes himself to be "Passion" because one of the best ways to create Hate is to set competing passions against each other. If you inflame the passions of others in many different ways, they will create hate through their interactions. Look at the Unmade.

So, both Shards are extremely compatible and would result in a Shard that nurtures both development and animosity. The resulting Shard would have to temper it's nurturing of hate to not interfere with its nurturing of growth. With the breadth of things to facilitate, any number of names could result from such a Shard. However, most of them would be pretty ominous. Facilitating growth and hate is a particularly nasty combination.

But it could also result in something akin to John Conway's Game of Life

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Leuthie