SwordNimiForPresident

Cultivation + Odium cont. from KoW = ???

38 posts in this topic

Starting this topic so I don't further derail KoW = ???

@cometaryorbit

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Cultivation is primarily selective pruning though. That entirely excludes the growth aspect, which is pretty core to what Cultivation is - I'd say the Intent is fundamentally "controlled/directed/shaped growth".

Pruning is a tool Cultivation uses, but not the intent itself.

And Odium is as much fury as hate, and has strong associations of conflict for its own sake ("the power likes disagreement" even when the Vessel just wants to be obeyed).

That's why I think you'd get something more like "growth/fostering of conflict" or "transformation (of people/societies) through anger/hate/conflict" with that combination.

Though the Intent of the one combining them probably matters too - I could see the conflict aspect of Odium wiping out the control aspect of Cultivation and producing something like "uncontrolled malignant growth".

But I think any combination involving Cultivation needs a growth aspect.

Cultivation is only growth when used in the laboratory for making cell cultures. In an agricultural sense it is about land preparation. In a more general sense it is about making changes to acquire certain qualities. You can cultivate a field of berries, or you can cultivate and air of refinement. You can also cultivate bacteria in a petri dish. It is fundamentally, ordered change (as opposed to disordered change which would be chaos). i.e. Changing the field so that only berries grow. Changing yourself so you are less crude. Controlling the environment in the petri dish to get the results you want.

Odium is hate. While conflict can come from hate, and hate can come from conflict, hate is not conflict. Conflict can be caused by many things, not the least of which is competition for resources.

To summarize, ordered change motivated by hate sounds (to me) like: systematic racism, ethnic "cleansing", genocide or purging.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

I think Dominion as an Intent is already very close to Tyranny - rule by force vs Devotion's loving service. Odium + Dominion needs a more 'aggressive' / conflict aspect imo. It's not just going to rule over people, it's going to actively go out and find/make up enemies. Dominion is good with people voluntarily joining its empire, Dominion + Odium would want bloody conquest. That's why I suggested that one.

Dominion can be tyrannical or benevolent. The Lord Ruler is an excellent example of a tyrant, and I actually think he might have been a viable vessel for Dominion if such a circumstance ever arose that he was able to pick it up. A good example of a benevolent ruler would be the Elantrians prior to the Reod. They were the de facto rulers but provided every necessity that their people could ever need. I actually think Raoden would be a good vessel for both Dominion and Devotion because while he is a self admitted tyrant, everything he did, he did out of love for his people.

Already said my Odium bit above.

I could concede to something martial in nature like Conquest, though it doesn't feel hateful enough. Maybe Enslavement? But the very worst enslavement practices. Like generational chattel slavery based on ethnic/religious identity (AKA slavery in America before the good guys won).

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ruin is fundamentally entropy so combined with Dominion you'd get, possibly, rule of entropy? Extinction maybe?

Though if the Shards combined a different way you might get entropy of rulership, a Shard of Anarchy perhaps. That actually strikes me as a better Ruin + Dominion combo now that I think of it.

Again, any Ruin combo needs an entropy aspect IMO.

I think Extinction is pretty much already covered by Ruin, and it lacks any element of Dominion.

Anarchy is nearly the direct opposite of Dominion. I expect you could get it from combining Autonomy and Whimsy.

Dominion is about ownership and Ruin is about entropy as you said.

Some synonyms for Consumption are: expend, deplete, exhaust, waste, squander, drain or dissipate. I feel that all of those provide a sufficient element of entropy to satisfy the Ruin aspect.

As for the Dominion part. Acquisition of a thing is a precursor of consuming it and acquisition feels very much like it belongs in the realm of Dominion.

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6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Starting this topic so I don't further derail KoW = ???

@cometaryorbit

Cultivation is only growth when used in the laboratory for making cell cultures. In an agricultural sense it is about land preparation. In a more general sense it is about making changes to acquire certain qualities. You can cultivate a field of berries, or you can cultivate and air of refinement. You can also cultivate bacteria in a petri dish. It is fundamentally, ordered change (as opposed to disordered change which would be chaos). i.e. Changing the field so that only berries grow. Changing yourself so you are less crude. Controlling the environment in the petri dish to get the results you want.

Odium is hate. While conflict can come from hate, and hate can come from conflict, hate is not conflict. Conflict can be caused by many things, not the least of which is competition for resources.

To summarize, ordered change motivated by hate sounds (to me) like: systematic racism, ethnic "cleansing", genocide or purging.

Dominion can be tyrannical or benevolent. The Lord Ruler is an excellent example of a tyrant, and I actually think he might have been a viable vessel for Dominion if such a circumstance ever arose that he was able to pick it up. A good example of a benevolent ruler would be the Elantrians prior to the Reod. They were the de facto rulers but provided every necessity that their people could ever need. I actually think Raoden would be a good vessel for both Dominion and Devotion because while he is a self admitted tyrant, everything he did, he did out of love for his people.

Already said my Odium bit above.

I could concede to something martial in nature like Conquest, though it doesn't feel hateful enough. Maybe Enslavement? But the very worst enslavement practices. Like generational chattel slavery based on ethnic/religious identity (AKA slavery in America before the good guys won).

I think Extinction is pretty much already covered by Ruin, and it lacks any element of Dominion.

Anarchy is nearly the direct opposite of Dominion. I expect you could get it from combining Autonomy and Whimsy.

Dominion is about ownership and Ruin is about entropy as you said.

Some synonyms for Consumption are: expend, deplete, exhaust, waste, squander, drain or dissipate. I feel that all of those provide a sufficient element of entropy to satisfy the Ruin aspect.

As for the Dominion part. Acquisition of a thing is a precursor of consuming it and acquisition feels very much like it belongs in the realm of Dominion.

o·di·um
/ˈōdēəm/
 
noun
  1. general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions.
    "his job had made him the target of public hostility and odium"
     
     
     As you can see odium is about more than just hate for anything.  Something like racism wouldn't fit within odiums intent it's hate because of actions. So something  like Punishment is probably better than enslavement.  
     
     Ruin  Plus odium would probably be something on the lines of cleansing or purifying. 
     
     
     
     
     we know from RoW  that The rhythm of odium and cultivation is described as the rhythm of freedom. That doesn't sound like Genocide to me. 
     
     From the way the rhythms are described. Cultivation seems to be more about promoting growth.   Honor plus cultivation, Seems to be about growth in accordance to rules or an understanding rules ( Described as the rhythm of science)
     
     Whereas odium plus cultivation  Is described as the rhythm of freedom ( Uncontrolled chaotic chaotic growth)
Edited by bmcclure7
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Definition of odium

 

1 : the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance
2 : hatred and condemnation accompanied by loathing or contempt : detestation
Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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23 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Definition of odium

 

1 : the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance
2 : hatred and condemnation accompanied by loathing or contempt : detestation

What's your point?

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12 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

What's your point?

You're making the same argument that you made in the other thread. The information is there. If you don't understand it, it's not my job to explain it to you. Frankly I don't enjoy engaging with you as you keep looping back around the same thing without adding anything.

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Cultivation has a variety of meanings, but I am pretty sure the Shard Intent is "ordered growth" not simply "ordered change". There's a WoB that Cultivation would actually be a better pair for Ruin - ordered growth vs disordered decay (entropy).

Odium is more than hate. It's not as broad as Passion, but from Taravangian's scene picking up the Shard, it's fury equally with hatred, and Dalinar and Venli's scenes experiencing the essence of Odium show it also includes desire/lust, adrenaline-rush, probably fear.

It's definitely not all emotion, but it seems to include aggressive/conflict-driving emotions (not exactly the same thing as "negative" emotions, IMO - despair is more a Ruin thing).

Also, the Sja-anat scene where the power of Odium wants arguments even when the Vessel wants to be obeyed without question... imo that's pretty strong evidence that Odium is pretty fundamentally the Shard of conflict the way Honor is of bonds.

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:
 
  1.  we know from RoW  that The rhythm of odium and cultivation is described as the rhythm of freedom. That doesn't sound like Genocide to me.

Also, this.  That does seem oddly positive to me - I'd expect chaos rather than simply freedom- but these things are probably affected by the people involved. Harmony isn't the only combination of Ruin and Preservation possible.

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This whole Cultivation is growth thing is getting tiresome. You could use growth in place of cultivation in some uses, but not in the way you guys keep trying to use it.

Here's an example sentence: "an adult human can grow to two meters tall".

If you instead say: "an adult human can cultivate to two meters tall". This sentence doesn't make sense.

Another example that is more nuanced: "When you cultivate corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer".

You can change the to: "when you grow corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer".

If you instead say: "when you cultivate corn, it should cultivate to knee high by mid summer" it doesn't make sense.

When grow is used the first way, it is synonymous with cultivate. When it is used the second way, it is describing cell production for the purpose of increasing the total mass of a living organism as it tries to achieve optimal size for reproduction.

Now to address some other points that I've seen made throughout the various topics I've posted in.

To address the point that Cultivation is ordered growth rather than ordered change.

From Oathbringer, chapter 57 "Passion"

Odium speaking to Dalinar - "Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares."

I'll allow that the word growth is in fact used here. However, it seems to me that it is being used in the way that I demonstrated above. It isn't talking about simple biological growth, it is talking about transformative growth as a concept. The type that can be applied to things like education or self betterment just as it can be applied to the care and tending of crops. Change with a purpose or goal. To put it another way, a farmer cultivates or grows crops by changing things about their environment and controlling circumstance to best suit the crops. The crops themselves grow (in a biological sense). Making Cultivation into some kind of plant goddess limits the scope of what is otherwise an Universal concept of "transformation with purpose" (what I referred to earlier as "ordered change"), rather than just chaotic natural processes.

At some point somebody was critical of my use of the word "pruning" to describe part of the domain of Cultivation.

From Oathbringer, chapter 114 "The Cost"

Cultivation speaking to Dalinar - "But I will give you...a pruning. A careful excision to let you grow. The cost will be high."

Here we see grow used again, and again, not used in the biological sense. We also see Cultivation pruning something in order to foster the change that she wants to see. This could be compared to a farmer weeding their garden to help promote the growth (biological) of the crops. But it could also be compared to corrective action taken with a poorly behaved child in order to help them grow (socially/intellectually) into a better behaved person. Cultivating something is about making changes to a given system in order to achieve the end result that you want.
 

From Rhythm of War, interlude 2 "Sja-Anat"

Sja-Anat's inner monologue - "Did not the humans revere Transformation--the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better--as a core ideal of their religion?"

This seems, at least to me, to be the influence of Cultivation on the human religions of Roshar, and best demonstrates its Intent. Transformation with a purpose.

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3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You're making the same argument that you made in the other thread. The information is there. If you don't understand it, it's not my job to explain it to you. Frankly I don't enjoy engaging with you as you keep looping back around the same thing without adding anything.

 I can assume that you finally understand that Odium is more than just hatred. 

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55 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

This whole Cultivation is growth thing is getting tiresome. You could use growth in place of cultivation in some uses, but not in the way you guys keep trying to use it.

Here's an example sentence: "an adult human can grow to two meters tall".

If you instead say: "an adult human can cultivate to two meters tall". This sentence doesn't make sense.

Another example that is more nuanced: "When you cultivate corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer".

You can change the to: "when you grow corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer".

If you instead say: "when you cultivate corn, it should cultivate to knee high by mid summer" it doesn't make sense.

When grow is used the first way, it is synonymous with cultivate. When it is used the second way, it is describing cell production for the purpose of increasing the total mass of a living organism as it tries to achieve optimal size for reproduction.

Now to address some other points that I've seen made throughout the various topics I've posted in.

To address the point that Cultivation is ordered growth rather than ordered change.

From Oathbringer, chapter 57 "Passion"

Odium speaking to Dalinar - "Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares."

I'll allow that the word growth is in fact used here. However, it seems to me that it is being used in the way that I demonstrated above. It isn't talking about simple biological growth, it is talking about transformative growth as a concept. The type that can be applied to things like education or self betterment just as it can be applied to the care and tending of crops. Change with a purpose or goal. To put it another way, a farmer cultivates or grows crops by changing things about their environment and controlling circumstance to best suit the crops. The crops themselves grow (in a biological sense). Making Cultivation into some kind of plant goddess limits the scope of what is otherwise an Universal concept of "transformation with purpose" (what I referred to earlier as "ordered change"), rather than just chaotic natural processes.

At some point somebody was critical of my use of the word "pruning" to describe part of the domain of Cultivation.

From Oathbringer, chapter 114 "The Cost"

Cultivation speaking to Dalinar - "But I will give you...a pruning. A careful excision to let you grow. The cost will be high."

Here we see grow used again, and again, not used in the biological sense. We also see Cultivation pruning something in order to foster the change that she wants to see. This could be compared to a farmer weeding their garden to help promote the growth (biological) of the crops. But it could also be compared to corrective action taken with a poorly behaved child in order to help them grow (socially/intellectually) into a better behaved person. Cultivating something is about making changes to a given system in order to achieve the end result that you want.
 

From Rhythm of War, interlude 2 "Sja-Anat"

Sja-Anat's inner monologue - "Did not the humans revere Transformation--the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better--as a core ideal of their religion?"

This seems, at least to me, to be the influence of Cultivation on the human religions of Roshar, and best demonstrates its Intent. Transformation with a purpose.

1. Your  own quots disprove your point. Odium didn't say change can be good or bad.  He sepacifically says it's growth can be good or bad. 

 

 2. No one's disagreeing that cultivation doesn't include purging.  We are just saying it's more than that.

3.  Think of ruin  and cultivation as 2 sides of the same coin.  Ruin is negative change (entropy),  Cultivation is positive change(growth). ( Positive and negative not good and bad).

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I can assume that you finally understand that Odium is more than just hatred. 

You can assume anything you want. You clearly don’t understand my point and I don’t care enough to explain it to you.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Your  own quots disprove your point. Odium didn't say change can be good or bad.  He sepacifically says it's growth can be good or bad. 

This explains nothing. It is a statement that amounts to “no u”.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. No one's disagreeing that cultivation doesn't include purging.  We are just saying it's more than that.

It was a primary point that you made in a previous post. I don’t care enough to go find it to quote.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  Think of ruin  and cultivation as 2 sides of the same coin.  Ruin is negative change (entropy),  Cultivation is positive change(growth). ( Positive and negative not good and bad).

Preservation and Ruin are two sides of the same coin. Not Cultivation and Ruin. They are differing degrees of the same concept, change.

Also somehow you’re now agreeing with me that Cultivation is about change, while still acting as though I’m incorrect.

As a final note, I want add that I have found speaking with you to be odious and you have convinced me that I won’t find interesting and engaging debate here. Good bye.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You can assume anything you want. You clearly don’t understand my point and I don’t care enough to explain it to you.

This explains nothing. It is a statement that amounts to “no u”.

It was a primary point that you made in a previous post. I don’t care enough to go find it to quote.

Preservation and Ruin are two sides of the same coin. Not Cultivation and Ruin. They are differing degrees of the same concept, change.

Also somehow you’re now agreeing with me that Cultivation is about change, while still acting as though I’m incorrect.

As a final note, I want add that I have found speaking with you to be odious and you have convinced me that I won’t find interesting and engaging debate here. Good bye.

1. No preservation and ruin are not 2 sides of anything. There are contrary forces in conflict with each other.  

2. Cultivation and Ruin are two have of same coin because they are DIFFERENT halfs of the same thing change. 

 

3.No they are not different degrees of same concept. They are opposite halfs of the same concept. That a big difference.   Entropy and growth, Reconstruction and deconstruction.  Not deconstruction and less deconstruction. 

 

4.  We never disagreed That Cultivation was about change. We disagree on with or not Cultivation is about growth. You seem to think that cultivation is about any kind of change, when clearly its about a specific kind of change (Namely Growth)

5.  Why are you complaining about me not explaining myself when you literally refuse to explain yourself.

 

6. On a final note I would like to say that the feeling is mutual.  No matter how many times I show you clearly from the books that you are wrong, You stubbornly ignore me. And complain that I repeat myself When I'm only doing that because it's you who are not listening.This is getting exhausting.  It's almost like I'm communicating with particularly dull child that that just won't accept when he is wrong. 

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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42 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

It's almost like I'm communicating with particularly dull child that that just won't accept when he is wrong. 

 

This would almost be insulting if your grammar and vocabulary weren’t so abysmal. I’m not going to argue the meaning of words with someone that can’t use them coherently.

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13 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

This would almost be insulting if your grammar and vocabulary weren’t so abysmal. I’m not going to argue the meaning of words with someone that can’t use them coherently.

  Insulting someone's use of grammar on the Internet. That's never been done before. So original,  So mature, I'm sure you always use perfect grammar when on the Internet. 

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5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

  Insulting someone's use of grammar on the Internet. That's never been done before. So original,  So mature, I'm sure you always use perfect grammar when on the Internet. 

It’s not an insult, it is a criticism. You calling me a “dull child” on the other hand is most assuredly an insult. One commonly seen on the Internet.

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14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It’s not an insult, it is a criticism. You calling me a “dull child” on the other hand is most assuredly an insult. One commonly seen on the Internet.

 To be fair you started it  You have done nothing but insult me this entire conversation. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 To be fair you started it  You have done nothing but insult me this entire conversation. 

If by “started it” you mean that I disagreed with you and ultimately expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of our conversation you are correct. I do not, however, recall insulting you.

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Cultivation is an active form of growth, encouraging growth in other things.

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1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

Cultivation is an active form of growth, encouraging growth in other things.

Exactly 

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If by “started it” you mean that I disagreed with you and ultimately expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of our conversation you are correct. I do not, however, recall insulting you.

 Well if you want to be technical like that I didn't insult you either I'd merely Describe what our conversation was like. 

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8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

particularly dull child

 

39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I didn't insult you either

 

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5 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

 

 

  You should put the full quote  You are taking it out of context.

 

 

 Enough This conversation has devolved into an argument when it was supposed to be at discussion. I think I've already said my thoughts on this it's on this I don't see any reason to add more unless someone new comes with a new thought.  So unless someone comes  Around with anything new to add This will be my last post. 

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Posted (edited)

I had always pinned Cultivation + Odium as Malignance - partly for the cancer implications around growth and spreading/metastasizing, but also the colloquial use of the word which can also mean "passionately and relentlessly malevolent - aggressively malicious".

The Genocide take is an interesting one I had not considered, thinking about taking something like Eugenics and then putting it into practice forcefully. Though I'll say I could see depending on the Vessel and its interpretation that Cultivation all on its own could be inclined towards something like Eugenics - rather scary to consider. I would think Genocide could be a more likely combo of Cultivation + Dominion though.

Edited by Dreamwa1ker
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Posted (edited)

I guess to me I took Cultivation as loving growth and then Odium as "general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions". Cultivation would shape "who" Odium hates. Without another aspect to direct Odiums hatred, Odium just hates pretty much everyone. Adding in another shard would tune where that hatred goes. 

So I almost see Odium+Cultivation as being a radicalized hatred to towards those who do not Cultivate nature, humanity, or personal growth. The two direct enemies of Cultivation would be Ruin and Preservation, so a grudge forming towards Scadrial seems likely. 

Odium + Cultivation: Conservation? 

---

Total 90* shift, but it would be cool for Cultivation to flip entirely and begin hating its own intent when Odium+Cultivation merge. Wouldn't it be funny to have the shard of "neglect" and turn the Odium inward.  

Edited by teknopathetic
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Posted (edited)

46 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I guess to me I took Cultivation as loving growth and then Odium as "general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions". Cultivation would shape "who" Odium hates. Without another aspect to direct Odiums hatred, Odium just hates pretty much everyone. Adding in another shard would tune where that hatred goes. 

Wow I actually love that take, because it would fit with the quote from WoR about Odium:

Quote

He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

with the lack of context being what makes him scary. With your idea, he gets more balanced the more Shards are added to him, hence why Rayse was resistant to merging.

Edited by Dreamwa1ker
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8 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I had always pinned Cultivation + Odium as Malignance - partly for the cancer implications around growth and spreading/metastasizing, but also the colloquial use of the word which can also mean "passionately and relentlessly malevolent - aggressively malicious".

The Genocide take is an interesting one I had not considered, thinking about taking something like Eugenics and then putting it into practice forcefully. Though I'll say I could see depending on the Vessel and its interpretation that Cultivation all on its own could be inclined towards something like Eugenics - rather scary to consider. I would think Genocide could be a more likely combo of Cultivation + Dominion though.

Eugenics actually sounds exactly like the kind of thing Taravangian would gravitate towards. An interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's hateful enough. Eugenics is more pragmatic than hateful. I could certainly see Cultivation being involved, but I feel like Odium would make it more aggressive, that's why I went the way I did.

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I guess to me I took Cultivation as loving growth and then Odium as "general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions". Cultivation would shape "who" Odium hates. Without another aspect to direct Odiums hatred, Odium just hates pretty much everyone. Adding in another shard would tune where that hatred goes. 

So I almost see Odium+Cultivation as being a radicalized hatred to towards those who do not Cultivate nature, humanity, or personal growth. The two direct enemies of Cultivation would be Ruin and Preservation, so a grudge forming towards Scadrial seems likely. 

Odium + Cultivation: Conservation?

Conservation feels like the same thing as Preservation to me. I've always viewed chaos as the natural opposite of Cultivation (change without reason vs change with purpose) and now that we know Whimsy exists I think it fills that spot nicely. I would still say that a grudge match between Roshar and Scadrial is coming soon though.

As a side note, hatred towards those who don't cultivate nature, humanity or personal growth sounds an awful lot like hatred towards lazy people, which I think would make for a pretty funny Intent for a Shard.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I had always pinned Cultivation + Odium as Malignance - partly for the cancer implications around growth and spreading/metastasizing, but also the colloquial use of the word which can also mean "passionately and relentlessly malevolent - aggressively malicious".

The Genocide take is an interesting one I had not considered, thinking about taking something like Eugenics and then putting it into practice forcefully. Though I'll say I could see depending on the Vessel and its interpretation that Cultivation all on its own could be inclined towards something like Eugenics - rather scary to consider. I would think Genocide could be a more likely combo of Cultivation + Dominion though.

Malignance  Shard could be interesting.  I find this far more likely than genocide shard.

7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I guess to me I took Cultivation as loving growth and then Odium as "general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions". Cultivation would shape "who" Odium hates. Without another aspect to direct Odiums hatred, Odium just hates pretty much everyone. Adding in another shard would tune where that hatred goes. 

So I almost see Odium+Cultivation as being a radicalized hatred to towards those who do not Cultivate nature, humanity, or personal growth. The two direct enemies of Cultivation would be Ruin and Preservation, so a grudge forming towards Scadrial seems likely. 

Odium + Cultivation: Conservation? 

---

Total 90* shift, but it would be cool for Cultivation to flip entirely and begin hating its own intent when Odium+Cultivation merge. Wouldn't it be funny to have the shard of "neglect" and turn the Odium inward.  

 We know that 2 worlds are in conflict in the future. ( Perhaps even now  If the thioeries about the set are correct).  So that is perhaps evidence of this. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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