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CosmereMaths

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I’d like to hear everybody’s unpopular opinions on the mistborn original trilogy.

I’ll go first: I think “Mistborn: The Final Empire” is better as a stand alone novel. So I’m a huge cosmere fan and have read all the Mistborn novels and novellas and some of them are really good, however I find it taints some of my favorite things about Mistborn.

Obviously Mistborn ends leaving the reader with some questions like what the Lord Ruler meant when he died, what are Koloss…; my biggest one was “wait, who was Kwaan?”, but I don’t think those are very big deals as unanswered questions. So firstly, the Zane storyline is so bad it might be the worst Cosmere storyline I ever read and the makes me not like Well of Ascension. I thought the realization by Vin at the end that Rashek killed Alendi simultaneously surprised me and made so much sense it was my favorite Brandon reveal and I liked thinking Rashek was selfish, greedy, and evil. The next books kinda retcon that and make him into this struggling hero who saved the world by killing Alendi. And KELSIER ISNT DEAD, sucks!!!! His death was the main focus of one of the best fantasy books I read and now it just didn’t really count I hate that. Anyways, I think Mistborn as a stand-alone is my favorite cosmere novel even more than WoK, and I wanna hear some more opinions y’all think aren’t super popular.

 

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I found Vin`s storyline in TFE very unbelievable - She started very suspicious of Kelsier and the crew and in what felt like few days she started trusting them completely. The Vin at the end didn`t feel like the same person with the same history in the begining of the book. The only explanation I can find is that maybe I missed somewhere where the book said that a lot of time passed between this.

 

Another thing I didn`t like was that that the crew didn`t reacted to Kelsier crimes - especially in the first chapter when he sent the Skaa plantation to hiding and probably die. The rest of the crew were outlaws by final empire standarts but they were basicaly good people who should not have been following someone as evil as Kelsier.

 

Edited by offer
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2 hours ago, offer said:

I found Vin`s storyline in TFE very unbelievable - She started very suspicious of Kelsier and the crew and in what felt like few days she started trusting them completely. The Vin at the end didn`t feel like the same person with the same history in the begining of the book. The only explanation I can find is that maybe I missed somewhere where the book said that a lot of time passed between this.

 

Another thing I didn`t like was that that the crew didn`t reacted to Kelsier crimes - especially in the first chapter when he sent the Skaa plantation to hiding and probably die. The rest of the crew were outlaws by final empire standarts but they were basicaly good people who should not have been following someone as evil as Kelsier.

 

Hmm, I really loved Vins character arc I think her growth into a trusting person was believable, especially after she was cared for in bed rest for weeks and found out Reen died defending her. Also I agree Kelsier is a morally ambiguous character but he’s what the final empire needed. He’s the type of person Taravangian might praise, but now he seems like just a villain, especially knowing what we know about the ghost bloods. But yeah everyone else in the crew were clearly good people

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Kelsier is not near as evil as people (including brandon) like to make him out to be based on what we've seen of him.

Thematically, I think I'd prefer if it stayed more true to the themes of a revolution and had Ruin be more the "good" one and preservation be more the "bad" one. I'm not saying "wanton destruction is good and the status quo is always bad" but the society here *shouldn't* be preserved and *did* need to be destroyed. Obviously, you can't have a society built on by tearing things down, but if you're going to have one be the "good" one and one be the "bad" one I think it would be a better continuation of the revolutionary themes to reverse them from what they were in the actual series. Obviously though, this would be a very different series from the one we got. (I made a post about this)

Overall, a bit too monarchist

The breeze/alrienne thing is absolutely horrible, that is a ridiculous age gap, and there wasn't a good reason to include it.

I'm not a fan of Elend's character arc. The beard alone...

I don't know if this is actually controversial, but I'm a big fan of the atium retcon.

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On 8/27/2022 at 4:27 PM, offer said:

I found Vin's story line in TFE very unbelievable - She started very suspicious of Kelsier and the crew and in what felt like few days she started trusting them completely. The Vin at the end didn't feel like the same person with the same history in the beginning of the book. The only explanation I can find is that maybe I missed somewhere where the book said that a lot of time passed between this.

How much time do you think passes over the course of TFE? I outlined the first era timeline in this post - but, for example, three months pass between chapters 6 and 9

Spoiler

Kel meets Vin in the summer and they plan the heist for "the next fall" - then by the time Kel is training Vin in Fellise it is already "late-autumn" of the first year.

TFE takes place over the course of about 15-18 months.

On 8/27/2022 at 3:58 PM, CosmereMaths said:

His death was the main focus of one of the best fantasy books I read and now it just didn’t really count I hate that.

I'm not sure why you say it didn't count - the fact that he martyred himself to inspire the Skaa to revolt very much mattered. And if he hadn't "survived" becoming a Cognitive Shadow, then Scadrial would be gone

Spoiler
  • Kelsier would not have gotten the connection Fabrial from the Ire
  • Which means he would not have been able to hold Preservation for a short time
    • Which means he would not have been able to help Spook throw off Ruin's machinations
    • Which also means Ruin would have succeeded in splintering Preservation
  • Which means Spook would never have sent the warning
  • Which means Marsh would never have gotten the warning
    • And if Vin's earring was still somehow removed, there would have been no Shard for her to ascend
  • Which means Ruin wins and Scadrial is gone.

My biggest quibble was the Eland/Yomen interactions (or lack thereof). We don't see the initial attempts at diplomacy (only an after-the-fact comment that messages were turned away), and it always made no sense to me that at the first Ball in Fadrex, Elend didn't just lay out the facts to Yomen ("Hey, this is what we have calculated will be the only irrigable land in 3 three months, we found the other four caches, we need to work together to save the people - because your city will die off if we don't work together").

I would have rather seen him try that and fail (if that's what the story demanded - because Yomen's hatred due to TLR's death certainly could have him ignore the facts presented that way or assume it's a ruse) than the awkward side-step that occurred.

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7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

How much time do you think passes over the course of TFE? I outlined the first era timeline in this post - but, for example, three months pass between chapters 6 and 9

  Reveal hidden contents

Kel meets Vin in the summer and they plan the heist for "the next fall" - then by the time Kel is training Vin in Fellise it is already "late-autumn" of the first year.

TFE takes place over the course of about 15-18 months.

I'm not sure why you say it didn't count - the fact that he martyred himself to inspire the Skaa to revolt very much mattered. And if he hadn't "survived" becoming a Cognitive Shadow, then Scadrial would be gone

  Hide contents
  • Kelsier would not have gotten the connection Fabrial from the Ire
  • Which means he would not have been able to hold Preservation for a short time
    • Which means he would not have been able to help Spook throw off Ruin's machinations
    • Which also means Ruin would have succeeded in splintering Preservation
  • Which means Spook would never have sent the warning
  • Which means Marsh would never have gotten the warning
    • And if Vin's earring was still somehow removed, there would have been no Shard for her to ascend
  • Which means Ruin wins and Scadrial is gone.

My biggest quibble was the Eland/Yomen interactions (or lack thereof). We don't see the initial attempts at diplomacy (only an after-the-fact comment that messages were turned away), and it always made no sense to me that at the first Ball in Fadrex, Elend didn't just lay out the facts to Yomen ("Hey, this is what we have calculated will be the only irrigable land in 3 three months, we found the other four caches, we need to work together to save the people - because your city will die off if we don't work together").

I would have rather seen him try that and fail (if that's what the story demanded - because Yomen's hatred due to TLR's death certainly could have him ignore the facts presented that way or assume it's a ruse) than the awkward side-step that occurred.

All the stuff you said about Keslier is true, but only matters for later books. Even still, there is definitely a possible version of the story where Leras survives long enough to do everything Kelsier had to do. Regardless, TFE requires no cosmere knowledge and Ruin and Preservation aren’t even characters. In fact, all the scheming and metalmind changing that lead to the Hero of Ages prophecy and the betrayal and the well of ascension I find to be a less compelling story than that of a jealous, nationalist, packman who ends up a tyrant for 1000 years. I think you can argue he still was but it just feels worse to me. 

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17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Era 1 is the weaker of the two mistborn trilogies.

Whoa, that's going to draw some heat!

My unpopular opinion is that Elend's character arc is so flat and his successes so undeserved (in a broad, narrative sense) that it drags down everything and everyone else. Vin's devotion to him always felt (to me) like an awkward fit for her character and bled away her agency. The latter in particular I found disappointing because it was so hard-won for her in The Final Empire. The story probably would have been better overall if she'd gone with Zane and/or Elend was removed from the picture in Well of Ascension.

Also, I despise Spook's street slang. It's a cute enough callback in era 2 that it's the High Imperial language due to Spook's elevation, but I always hated reading it and invariably skip it on every re-read. I've always felt it's underdeveloped and kind of lazily done, and didn't achieve any worldbuilding which it was presumably intended to do (unusual for Sanderson writing I've seen). A swing and a miss, at a pitch that was clearly 20 feet away from the batter in the first place.

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On 8/27/2022 at 3:27 PM, offer said:

I found Vin`s storyline in TFE very unbelievable - She started very suspicious of Kelsier and the crew and in what felt like few days she started trusting them completely. The Vin at the end didn`t feel like the same person with the same history in the begining of the book. The only explanation I can find is that maybe I missed somewhere where the book said that a lot of time passed between this.

 

I think you're underestimating how much time passes in the first half of the book.  The series in general, but especially the first half of book 1, actually covers more time than it "feels" like.

-

Unpopular opinion: I actually think Well of Ascension is one of Brandon's best books. The whole, actually having to build something new to replace the old and deal with the difficulties of that, aspect - rather than just ending the story with defeating the villain as is typical.

Destroying is always easier than building new things - even when something needs to be destroyed, fixing things afterward is nearly always the harder part. But also nearly always the ignored/forgotten part, both in fiction and in the way we talk about RL history (the rebuilding after WWII is much less known than the major battles of WWII).

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Ooo let’s see. 
I hate the fact that they killed vins father, and that he didn’t know about her. Would have proved elends point if vins dad knew about vin but tried to protect her by sending them away. Or even was in communication with reen to give them a heads up when the steel inquisitors got close. And possibly expand their relationship in well of ascension. (You could have killed him off instead of the elend fake out)

  Anyways, I feel like that was a missed opportunity for an interesting dynamic. 
 

allomancy imo works better as the ability of both preservation and ruin. (Literally destroying metals to access the power) 

 

Burning atium to keep it away from ruin sounds stupid to me because it goes to the SR and that’s where most of ruin is.

Breeze and alrenne I don’t mind but spooks and that trusting girl was annoying. 
(Oh yes stalk the girl say you’ll kill her brother and still get her somehow.) 

cett is annoying 

vin is a Mary sue that has trust issues. So original. 

Young elend is an idiot.

 

hemilurgy is cool but super complex that only a shard can fully understand….. oh kelsier found out how to get a body in ten years? Oh sure. 

That’s my main grips. I really enjoyed the books but definitely not a polished gemheart. 

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16 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

allomancy imo works better as the ability of both preservation and ruin. (Literally destroying metals to access the power) 

[...]


Young elend is an idiot.

 

hemilurgy is cool but super complex that only a shard can fully understand….. oh kelsier found out how to get a body in ten years? Oh sure.

Allomancy feeling more of both and Feruchemy feeling more Preservation has come up repeatedly.

Elend is indeed super naive/foolish at the beginning, I think that's intentional because a lot of Well of Ascension is about that changing.

As for Hemalurgy... remember that Kelsier held Preservation for a while (after Leras died and before Vin ascended). He's a Sliver with expanded mind ... just as TLR was. He references that at the very end of SH when he talks to Spook (saying that if he'd paid more attention when he held the power he could have figured it all out). So I don't think Kelsier's Hemalurgy discoveries are an inconsistency.

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8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Allomancy feeling more of both and Feruchemy feeling more Preservation has come up repeatedly.

Elend is indeed super naive/foolish at the beginning, I think that's intentional because a lot of Well of Ascension is about that changing.

As for Hemalurgy... remember that Kelsier held Preservation for a while (after Leras died and before Vin ascended). He's a Sliver with expanded mind ... just as TLR was. He references that at the very end of SH when he talks to Spook (saying that if he'd paid more attention when he held the power he could have figured it all out). So I don't think Kelsier's Hemalurgy discoveries are an inconsistency.

1) didn’t know about those discussions but I assumed they existed

2,3) yeah I know but still

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22 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Burning atium to keep it away from ruin sounds stupid to me because it goes to the SR and that’s where most of ruin is.

Preservation made a splinter of Ruin that is separate from the main shard and that's where the Investiture returns to.

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I appreciate how nearly the entire crew from the start of TFE has been killed or turned into a monster-man (Marsh) by the end of the trilogy.  Especially in contrast to most of Brandon's other works which are more focused on people who are functionally immortal one way or another. 

16 (or 18) Metals is too many. A lot of the Feruchemical and Hemalurgic effects of the metals don't seem to relate to what the metal does in Allomancy. 

I hate the thieves' cant that Spook uses and I don't enjoy the Spook sections of HoA.  

Edited by Child of Hodor
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  • 3 weeks later...

The Well of Ascension was a good idea conceptually that had to be written for the sake of the trilogy, but it was hard for me to get through. 

Ruin should've ranted about how much the Final Empire pissed it off in the convo with Vin in HOA.  In general I think a bit more of the duality of Preservation and Ruin as Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral respectively would've been good to have. 

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Unpopular opinion: Vin's arc is one of the most unrealistic arcs in Sandersons books. I think it's because the focus passes a lot to Elend, and though I  still love it I think Vin gets too much pushed away. I loved her in the first book and ironically the third is my favourite. 

This is my most unpopular opinion but I liked Zane's storyline. Partly because we get to see more of Zane, but I think it added some thoughts. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Elend is a self insert and Vin is a manic pixie dream girl that loses a lot of agency once she falls in love with Elend.

Also there's a steep learning curve to all the metals and their properties, what they do on their own and then what they do in resonance with each other individual metal. I appreciate the complexity in theory but sometimes less is more. I ignore half of what's posted on this forum because it's detailed questions about all of the fine points of it and it's just boring. That might not be an unpopular opinion elsewhere, I feel like I'm probably closer to the majority outside of places like this. 

Edited by City of Sauronicon
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On 31 August 2022 at 8:33 PM, cometaryorbit said:

As for Hemalurgy... remember that Kelsier held Preservation for a while (after Leras died and before Vin ascended). He's a Sliver with expanded mind ... just as TLR was. He references that at the very end of SH when he talks to Spook (saying that if he'd paid more attention when he held the power he could have figured it all out). So I don't think Kelsier's Hemalurgy discoveries are an inconsistency.

Being a Sliver of _Preservation_ shouldn't give one particular insight into Metallic Art of _Ruin_, quite the opposite! TLR had been tricked by Ruin and given all his hemalurgic "discoveries" by the same. Which is why he was unable to come up with any new applications of it after he left the Well, despite centuries of experimentation.

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Being a Sliver of _Preservation_ shouldn't give one particular insight into Metallic Art of _Ruin_, quite the opposite! TLR had been tricked by Ruin and given all his hemalurgic "discoveries" by the same. Which is why he was unable to come up with any new applications of it after he left the Well, despite centuries of experimentation.

Any shard will give you insight into the deep secrets of the Cosmere. Which one it is doesn't matter.

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17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Any shard will give you insight into the deep secrets of the Cosmere. Which one it is doesn't matter.

It very much mattered in case of TLR - he has been unable to discover any new applications of Hemalurgy on his own in a thousand years of trying. All he ever had was what Ruin had spoon-fed him in the Well.

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26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Any shard will give you insight into the deep secrets of the Cosmere. Which one it is doesn't matter.

5 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It very much mattered in case of TLR - he has been unable to discover any new applications of Hemalurgy on his own in a thousand years of trying. All he ever had was what Ruin had spoon-fed him in the Well.

These aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. 

I would imagine an instinctual knowledge of things relating to the Vessel's Shard applies, while a "questing" knowledge can be learned of things relating to other Shards has been demonstrated. However, you make a good point @Isilel, though I will approach it a different way. Ruin spoon-fed TLR - and likely included disinformation (getting TLR to make the puppets Ruin wanted, but not enough to learn on his own). While Kell gleaned a small bit objectively, and without Ruin's help/interference. I think that is why Kelsier was able to extrapolate and learn more with Spook after the SH Epilogue. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It very much mattered in case of TLR - he has been unable to discover any new applications of Hemalurgy on his own in a thousand years of trying. All he ever had was what Ruin had spoon-fed him in the Well.

TLR never held Preservation.

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

TLR never held Preservation.

Well... kind of? He never held the full Shard, but he is called a Sliver, so he held a lot of it... Surely enough to get some mind expansion/knowledge, since Vin does at the end of WoA (she sees the whole world, notices that it's mostly uninhabitable, and notices life at the south pole).

But not only did Kelsier hold more power, he held it for probably weeks, not minutes.

Also... Rashek went to the Well as a clueless angry young man. Kelsier was mature and by the time he took the Shard had become aware of a lot more by meeting Preservation, Ruin, and Khriss.

So Kelsier had a better idea of what questions to think about and much more time to think.

And he's probably just smarter - or at least more clever - than Rashek, too. I think TLR was pretty reactive.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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