Stormfather in Stormlight 5 Prolouge

[Mr. Misting]

So is it just me or does the Stormfather seem different in stormlight 5 prologue. The description of the Stormfather is drastically changed.

"As he sometimes did, the Stormfather formed a rippling in the air beside Gavilar. Vaguely in the shape of a person, but indistinct. Without color or really form. Like the wavering in the air made by great heat on the stones."

In earlier books the stormfather was a face in the storms not whatever this is. 

I know they are going to be continuity errors in this because it is an early draft, but this feels intentional. What do you guys think, am I missing something?

[StormingTexan]

Yes there has been previous discussion about the "Stormfaker". I believe the leading theory is it is actually Ishar posing as SA and attempting to manipulate Gavilar in to doing his bidding.  

[NameIess]

Yes, I believe this is intentional. Not sure exactly what it means, but here's what Brandon's said about the differences in the KoW prologue:

Quote

The Cones of Dunshire

Stormlight 5 prologue: Are we supposed to be getting really weird vibes from the Stormfather, or is this just for lack of editing?

Brandon Sanderson

*extremely facetiously* Uh, I don't know what you mean weird, that totally seems like the way the Stormfather always acts and has always!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[Quantus]

7 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Yes there has been previous discussion about the "Stormfaker". I believe the leading theory is it is actually Ishar posing as SA and attempting to manipulate Gavilar in to doing his bidding.  

That's the theory that won out?  Honestly it seemed the least compelling of the one's I recall being kicked around.

I still think most of it was the Everstorm's Spren pretending to be the Stormfather in hopes of stealing the Stormfather's then-current Bondsmith candidate.  But I did miss out on a lot of the debate so I may have missed something more compelling. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Quantus

[StormingTexan]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

That's the theory that one out?  Honestly it seemed the least compelling of the one's I recall being kicked around.

I still think most of it was the Everstorm's Spren pretending to be the Stormfather in hopes of stealing the Stormfather's then-current Bondsmith candidate.  But I did miss out on a lot of the debate so I may have missed something more compelling. 

It seemed like it to me but it has been a while so entirely possible there was more discussion I did not see. 

[offer]

I the visions Dalinar sometimes describes the stormfather as a shimmering in the air - that sounds to me very similar to this description.

The stormfather`s atitude toward Gavilar IS different from what we see in other books (and it is written that way intentionally according to the WoB) - maybe that means that after failing with Gavilar he decided to try in an entirely different approach toward Dalinar.

 

From what I saw there are two "camps" in the theories:

a) This is the real stormfather and he hides a lot of information in his interactions with Dalinar.

b) Gavilar is acctually interacting with someone else "disguised" as the stormfather (some say that maybe part of the interaction is with the real SF and part is with the StormFaker). This camp includes a lot of candidates for the identity of the StormFaker including Ishar, an Unmade (I heard BAM and Moelech suggested), voidspren, Odium.  

 

There is an episode of Shardcast discussing this prolouge and those theories where they preffer the Idea that it is the SF and he was lying to Dalinar a lot in the first books.

[alder24]

Yup, there is something weird going on with that Stormfather, and good job on catching that. To be fair, Stormfather show himself to Dalinar in form of shimmering in the air few times as well, iirc one of that was in the Aharietiam vision with Navani. As mentioned earlier, the most prominent and well made theory is that it is Ishar manipulating Gavilar, but other names are also appearing as valid Stormfakers candidates like Tanavast Cognitive Shadow, Odium, Cultivation, spren of Everstorm or Unmades etc. But also there is a socond camp, to which I also belong, that there is no Stormfaker, and all discrepancies can be the result of Stormfather lying to Gavilar and Dalinar, his trust issues after failure with Gavilar, Stormfather changing over time, or even his hidden agendas. If you want to know more about this, I highly encourage you to check out these two forum topics in Cosmere Discussion, possible spoilers to all Cosmere books.

 

[Mr. Misting]

Ok cool, thanks for answering my question

[cometaryorbit]

Its definitely weird.

I am generally on the side of "it's the real Stormfather and he changed his approach after Gavilar", though, especially since there's WoB confirmation that Gavilar was on the path to becoming a Bondsmith.

I think the main concern is the Stormfather lying- but even though he's a Splinter and Sliver of Honor, he's not Honor himself, and anyway "oaths and bonds" isn't the same as "truth".

And actually his not wanting to be involved with the Kholin family again could explain why he's so mad at the end of WoR when Dalinar bonds him (I think Honor gave him criteria of who to send the visions to; I don't think he could just choose to bypass Dalinar).

[+Kolten]

Have we ever seen if spren behave differently when bonded to different people? I wonder if the human involved in the bonding can effect the personality of the spren in some ways. Not really change who they are, but maybe make them tend to think along the same lines as the human they bond to. 

Thinking through the spren we know, they all seem to compliment their human partner's personalities very well. Before I always ascribed this to the spren being attracted to a proto radiant they would get along with (as well as the out of universe reasoning that these characters spend a lot of time together, and Brandon is going to make sure they are entertaining together accordingly). But maybe there is something more to it? 

That the stormfather would have an easier time rationalizing lying and being manipulative when bonding to gavilar checks out. And then when bonding Dalinar, being stoic and reserved, and withholding information as opposed to outright lying also fits pretty well. 

Maybe it is a factor anyway. 

[Halyo_Alex]

14 minutes ago, Kolten said:

Have we ever seen if spren behave differently when bonded to different people? I wonder if the human involved in the bonding can effect the personality of the spren in some ways. Not really change who they are, but maybe make them tend to think along the same lines as the human they bond to. 

Thinking through the spren we know, they all seem to compliment their human partner's personalities very well. Before I always ascribed this to the spren being attracted to a proto radiant they would get along with (as well as the out of universe reasoning that these characters spend a lot of time together, and Brandon is going to make sure they are entertaining together accordingly). But maybe there is something more to it? 

That the stormfather would have an easier time rationalizing lying and being manipulative when bonding to gavilar checks out. And then when bonding Dalinar, being stoic and reserved, and withholding information as opposed to outright lying also fits pretty well. 

Maybe it is a factor anyway. 

I mean, it is the bond with a human that gives spren the ability to think in the physical realm, so...

[slavagh]

On 08.08.2022 at 8:27 PM, Mr. Misting said:

"As he sometimes did, the Stormfather formed a rippling in the air beside Gavilar. Vaguely in the shape of a person, but indistinct. Without color or really form. Like the wavering in the air made by great heat on the stones."

Pretty sure it is the same description as when Dalinar was traveling to meet Ishar.

Pretending to be Stormfather only makes sense if it is aimed at a reader. If you want to deceive Gavilar, a better option is to pretend to be a Herald or a god. Only someone powerful can hack a vision. Ishar and Cultivation are the only characters that come to mind(don't but spren of Everstorm because of the timeline - Odium is bound by the oathpact at that moment). Both of them can manipulate Gavilar without fake Stormfather deception.
I am a bit surprised at the general reaction to Stormfather in the prologue. My read of the prologue was that Stormfather is secretive, manipulative, and can't be trusted.
Plus Stormfather felt pretty honest with Gavilar at his last moments. Why keep deception at that moment?

[BinarySecond]

Do we have a timeline for when Ishar reclaimed his Honour Blade? Could he have highjacked the process using a bond?

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Kolten said:

Have we ever seen if spren behave differently when bonded to different people? I wonder if the human involved in the bonding can effect the personality of the spren in some ways. Not really change who they are, but maybe make them tend to think along the same lines as the human they bond to. 

That's good idea. We've never seen sprens interacting with multiple radiants of their own, so it could be a possibility.

4 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Do we have a timeline for when Ishar reclaimed his Honour Blade? Could he have highjacked the process using a bond?

I've checked that out, posted it in "The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory" and Ishar couldn't have had the Honorblade when Gavilar was alive. Here it is:

Spoiler

Next when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere within last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar.  

 

Overall I think that lying Stormfather keeping secrets from Dalinar about his brother would be much bigger deal to Dalinar and be an interesting twist to their relations than any twist with Ishar or other Stormfaker.

Edited August 10, 2022 by alder24

[Erklitt]

21 hours ago, Kolten said:

Have we ever seen if spren behave differently when bonded to different people? I wonder if the human involved in the bonding can effect the personality of the spren in some ways.

The closest to this we have seen would be Design, taken up by Hoid after Elhokar's death. It makes me wonder: should we hope for Elhokar's influence to be quickly 'overridden' by Hoid's, or should we be terrified of the prospect? 

[cometaryorbit]

 

On 8/9/2022 at 4:20 PM, slavagh said:

Pretending to be Stormfather only makes sense if it is aimed at a reader. If you want to deceive Gavilar, a better option is to pretend to be a Herald or a god. Only someone powerful can hack a vision. Ishar and Cultivation are the only characters that come to mind(don't but spren of Everstorm because of the timeline - Odium is bound by the oathpact at that moment). Both of them can manipulate Gavilar without fake Stormfather deception.

Yeah, I think it is probably really the Stormfather, just the Stormfather is less benign than we generally assumed.

Looking back at his initial bond with Dalinar, he was pretty hostile then. And we know the bond gives spren more humanity. And Gavilar wasn't far along the process.

I think the Stormfather probably can lie (absent a specific oath or other commitment not to) but can't deceive in oaths or falsely commit to things. But I think he lied less than it sounds like, a lot of it was Gavilar's false assumptions. (Did the Stormfather actually say the Heralds were currently on Braize, or did he just explain how the Oathpact works in a way that made Gavilar *assume* that since a Desolation isn't happening now they must therefore be on Braize?)

I do think the Stormfather probably really intended for Gavilar to become a Herald, sort of - Bondsmith powers over Connection are probably sufficient to Connect oneself to the Oathpact. And the Stormfather does say "a ...Herald" implying some hesitation - he probably wouldn't get the exact same effects as the original Heralds  - but I do think reinforcing the Oathpact by Gavilar's participation was genuinely intended.

He didn't try this afterwards because once the Everstorm was in force it couldn't do any good.

[slavagh]

22 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think the Stormfather probably can lie (absent a specific oath or other commitment not to) but can't deceive in oaths or falsely commit to things. But I think he lied less than it sounds like, a lot of it was Gavilar's false assumptions. (Did the Stormfather actually say the Heralds were currently on Braize, or did he just explain how the Oathpact works in a way that made Gavilar *assume* that since a Desolation isn't happening now they must therefore be on Braize?)

I do think the Stormfather probably really intended for Gavilar to become a Herald, sort of - Bondsmith powers over Connection are probably sufficient to Connect oneself to the Oathpact. And the Stormfather does say "a ...Herald" implying some hesitation - he probably wouldn't get the exact same effects as the original Heralds  - but I do think reinforcing the Oathpact by Gavilar's participation was genuinely intended.

I think misleading and not correcting false assumptions is still lying. Strange behavior of someone who is a splinter of Honor. 
His behavior leads me to believe that he has his own intentions and goals, not the same as Honor's. But he is limited by Honor's orders (maybe he took some oaths). At least his interpretation of those orders is drastically different from how Honor intended them.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:07 PM, slavagh said:

I think misleading and not correcting false assumptions is still lying. Strange behavior of someone who is a splinter of Honor.

To us it might be morally equivalent to lying... but the Stormfather is not human, especially with no bond or a weak bond. And we're told that Honor near death cared about the words of an oath not its content/morality (or something like that)... caring about exact words seems plausible for a being who was reshaped in Honor's last days.