Spren and the physical realm

[Rg2045]

So I’m unsure if this is a theory or an observation, but let’s talk about spren, and how they travel through the physical realm. 

Obviously we see syl fly around and stick things together, using the surges her bond grants. 

wyndle seems to use progression (super fast) to talk and move around. 

Ua’pam is able to merge with the stones similar to the deepest ones who share the ability 

so I guess it’s just connecting the vary close dots, but I think this shows that the spren (who we know have small bits of physical substance) have to interact with the world within the bounds of their surges.
 

And perhaps the body essences have something to do with it as gyls hides in Renarins body. 
what’s yalls thoughts, anything I missed or anything you would like to point out?

 

edit: I forgot why I originally wanted to post this. 
anyways BONDSMITHS. Who are the three bondsmiths? Stormfather, sibling, and…… that’s right the nightwatcher, who has what ability? The old magic. Think about that for a moment, we have been asking what a bondsmith can do? We have been seeing hints of it sense the beginning. And that’s only casually, imagine what bondsmiths can do when properly used. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Rg2045

[cometaryorbit]

Progression is growth and healing, not speed. Abrasion (Edgedancers' other Surge) can increase speed by reducing friction, though.

Some Spren can clearly use Surge related effects, but I don't think it's a particularly 'standardized' system. And I don't think everything they do is Surge related - Pattern appears under/in the surfaces of things and he doesn't grant Cohesion. Spren (except when manifested as Blades/Plate/ancient fabrials) are only slightly present in the Physical realm, so I think they can ignore things like gravity and solidity without needing Surges.

[Rg2045]

21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Progression is growth and healing, not speed. Abrasion (Edgedancers' other Surge) can increase speed by reducing friction, though.

Some Spren can clearly use Surge related effects, but I don't think it's a particularly 'standardized' system. And I don't think everything they do is Surge related - Pattern appears under/in the surfaces of things and he doesn't grant Cohesion. Spren (except when manifested as Blades/Plate/ancient fabrials) are only slightly present in the Physical realm, so I think they can ignore things like gravity and solidity without needing Surges.

I think they don’t have speed issues but that’s of no consequence. But when have we seen sentient  spren move in the air without surges? I’m basing my thoughts on what we have seen. Also spren have a physical presence. Why didn’t syl go through the stone covering the well? I’m sure a stoneward spren could because that’s part of their surges. 

[Duxredux]

Interesting idea, let's look at the rest of the known Radiant Spren.

Inkspren, at least in the case of Ivory, can't disappear from the Physical Realm, but they can change their own size at will. I think they appear as they do in Shadesmar. Related Radiant Surges are Transformation and Transportation. Did Jasnah get pulled into Shadesmar without her volition by Inkspren in her Prologue POV, or did I misread that?

Lightspren, or Reachers, manifest a small orbs of light. Related Radiant Surges are Cohesion and Transportation. Have we seen Timbre using these abilities? Any relation to how she got in Venli's gemheart and bound the Voidspren fueling her Regal Form?

Highspren, who knows. They float I think. So there's that.  Related Radiant Surges are Division and Gravitation.

In the Physical Realm, they take the form of black slits in the air, which can pull open to reveal stars shining within.^[6] When they move, reality seems to bend around them.^[7]

Ashspren, 

In the Physical Realm, ashspren appear as cracks that appear to grow on surfaces or branch through the air.^[4] When they move they seem to burn through the inside of objects in treelike patterns.

Related Surges are Division and Abrasion. 

Mistspren:

In the Physical Realm, mistspren resemble the shimmer light makes on a surface when it is reflected through a crystal.^[4] When they stay still, light grows upwards from them in the shape of plants, which retreat when they start moving.

Related Surges are Illumination and Progression. 

 

Most of these seem to fit in that they how they interact with the Physical Realm is directly related to the Surges they grant. With Cryptics moving along surfaces of an object, I suspect that may be related to Illumination rather than Cohesion, they travel along the surfaces of objects, like how I think non-enlightened Mistspren move. The odd one is Lightspren really, the rest seem to fit pretty well. Most do not ignore gravity or phase through solid objects, generally only the ones with related Surges can do so. Except Lightspren.

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Most of these seem to fit in that they how they interact with the Physical Realm is directly related to the Surges they grant. With Cryptics moving along surfaces of an object, I suspect that may be related to Illumination rather than Cohesion, they travel along the surfaces of objects, like how I think non-enlightened Mistspren move. The odd one is Lightspren really, the rest seem to fit pretty well. Most do not ignore gravity or phase through solid objects, generally only the ones with related Surges can do so. Except Lightspren.

Hmm, the more I think about it, it's not so much that I disagree it's related to Surges -- it often is, maybe even usually is -- I just don't think it's a firm rule.

Non-sapient spren that don't grant Surges can still appear in the Physical, and some of them move (while others appear as growing or bubbling out of a surface, etc.)

And maybe Cryptic motion is kind of related to Illumination, but it seems a loose connection.

I'd say that how a spren manifests in the Physical Realm is related to the concept it represents, which is *linked* to its Surges (for a spren that grants Surges) but not identical to or limited to those Surges. So lightspren are less limited by things like gravity because they represent/are linked to light, not because they use Gravitation to fly.

On the other hand, while I don't think Syl is actually Surgebinding Gravitation to fly, her ability to fly is related to the kind of spren she is/her concept and thus related to the Surges she grants Kaladin.

And the Surges as concepts are broader than the specific Radiant Surgebinding abilities, and the spren can be referred to as "living Surges". So maybe it is based on Surges in that broader more conceptual sense, just not the specific magic system of Surgebinding?

 

 

[bmcclure7]

On 8/4/2022 at 4:44 PM, Rg2045 said:

So I’m unsure if this is a theory or an observation, but let’s talk about spren, and how they travel through the physical realm. 

Obviously we see syl fly around and stick things together, using the surges her bond grants. 

wyndle seems to use progression (super fast) to talk and move around. 

Ua’pam is able to merge with the stones similar to the deepest ones who share the ability 

so I guess it’s just connecting the vary close dots, but I think this shows that the spren (who we know have small bits of physical substance) have to interact with the world within the bounds of their surges.
 

And perhaps the body essences have something to do with it as gyls hides in Renarins body. 
what’s yalls thoughts, anything I missed or anything you would like to point out?

 

edit: I forgot why I originally wanted to post this. 
anyways BONDSMITHS. Who are the three bondsmiths? Stormfather, sibling, and…… that’s right the nightwatcher, who has what ability? The old magic. Think about that for a moment, we have been asking what a bondsmith can do? We have been seeing hints of it sense the beginning. And that’s only casually, imagine what bondsmiths can do when properly used. 

 Hiding inside a body It seems to be a trait that is comon for void Spren ( Possibly as a substitute for their inability to become fabrels) .  I don't think a regular watcher watcher Spren would have this ability. 

[bmcclure7]

On 8/5/2022 at 1:25 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, the more I think about it, it's not so much that I disagree it's related to Surges -- it often is, maybe even usually is -- I just don't think it's a firm rule.

Non-sapient spren that don't grant Surges can still appear in the Physical, and some of them move (while others appear as growing or bubbling out of a surface, etc.)

And maybe Cryptic motion is kind of related to Illumination, but it seems a loose connection.

I'd say that how a spren manifests in the Physical Realm is related to the concept it represents, which is *linked* to its Surges (for a spren that grants Surges) but not identical to or limited to those Surges. So lightspren are less limited by things like gravity because they represent/are linked to light, not because they use Gravitation to fly.

On the other hand, while I don't think Syl is actually Surgebinding Gravitation to fly, her ability to fly is related to the kind of spren she is/her concept and thus related to the Surges she grants Kaladin.

And the Surges as concepts are broader than the specific Radiant Surgebinding abilities, and the spren can be referred to as "living Surges". So maybe it is based on Surges in that broader more conceptual sense, just not the specific magic system of Surgebinding?

 

 

 At the very least we know she can stick things together like Kaliden can.

[Mr. Misting]

 

 

On 8/5/2022 at 0:25 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, the more I think about it, it's not so much that I disagree it's related to Surges -- it often is, maybe even usually is -- I just don't think it's a firm rule.

Non-sapient spren that don't grant Surges can still appear in the Physical, and some of them move (while others appear as growing or bubbling out of a surface, etc.)

And maybe Cryptic motion is kind of related to Illumination, but it seems a loose connection.

I'd say that how a spren manifests in the Physical Realm is related to the concept it represents, which is *linked* to its Surges (for a spren that grants Surges) but not identical to or limited to those Surges. So lightspren are less limited by things like gravity because they represent/are linked to light, not because they use Gravitation to fly.

On the other hand, while I don't think Syl is actually Surgebinding Gravitation to fly, her ability to fly is related to the kind of spren she is/her concept and thus related to the Surges she grants Kaladin.

And the Surges as concepts are broader than the specific Radiant Surgebinding abilities, and the spren can be referred to as "living Surges". So maybe it is based on Surges in that broader more conceptual sense, just not the specific magic system of Surgebinding?

I think cometaryorbit has some very good theories on how spren interact with surges in the physical realm and I more or less agree with them. 

One thing that I think we need to keep in mind is that maybe, the spren's means of interacting with the physical realm aren't because of the knight radiants. When the Knight Radiants were made the spren were put into that order because they already acted like those surges. A Honorspren could probably already fly and use adeshion in the physical realm, and then when they made the Radiants it made sense to have honorspren bond and give the radiants adhesion and gravitation. 

I could be wrong on that, it is just how I think of it.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:01 AM, Mr. Misting said:

One thing that I think we need to keep in mind is that maybe, the spren's means of interacting with the physical realm aren't because of the knight radiants. When the Knight Radiants were made the spren were put into that order because they already acted like those surges. A Honorspren could probably already fly and use adeshion in the physical realm, and then when they made the Radiants it made sense to have honorspren bond and give the radiants adhesion and gravitation. 

I could be wrong on that, it is just how I think of it.

Oh yeah the spren existed first, and discovered they could create Radiants by imitating the Honorblade-Herald bond.

I don't think it was intentionally chosen "ok I'm going to grant these Surges" though, I think it was more like "the nature of this spren means that if it forms a deep enough bond with a Physical person, this specific Surge pair gets granted".

Now apparently the Knight Radiant Orders were formalized after the initial development of Radiant-style Nahel bonds, but even before that (Nohadon's time) you had honorspren granting Surgebinding, and I really doubt an honorspren of that era could grant different Surges than Adhesion/Gravitation.

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

I’ve noticed the relationship between the Radiant spren and their Surges too, although I agree with @cometaryorbit that it’s not a set pattern and they can’t necessarily Surgebind like their Radiants. It seems to me to be mostly in their appearance and actions.

Honourspren take the appearance of air related things (adhesion) and fly around, sometimes walking at odd angles (gravity). There’s also the natural gravity weirdness of Lasting Integrity.

Highspren look like a tear (division) in reality, they float around and look like a starry night sky (gravity).

Ashspren seem to burn through things (combo of division and abrasion).

Cultivationspren look like vines and crystals (progression), they move around by growing (progression) and slithering (abrasion).

Mistspren look like reflected light (illumination) and sometimes seem to grow ethereal plant (progression).

Cryptics appear as raised image on a surface (illumination, they bend the light), they also can change into a 3d form (transform).

Inkspren appear exactly as they do in Shadesmar (transport), but can change size (transform).

Lightspren are obviously an odd one but I’m pretty sure we’ve only seen them from the pov of singers so that could change things. They do seem to pulse to the rhythms (transport?) and since they are lightspren they might be appearing as a complete lack of substance (cohesion).

Peakspren look like and meld into stone (cohesion). We still don’t know much about tension though.

Edited August 20, 2022 by in Truth,watcher of tv

[cometaryorbit]

15 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I’ve noticed the relationship between the Radiant spren and their Surges too, although I agree with @cometaryorbit that it’s not a set pattern and they Highspren look like a tear (division) in reality, they float around and look like a starry night sky (gravity).

[...]

Stonespren look like and meld into stone (cohesion). We still don’t know much about tension though.

Hmm, the tear in reality appearance of highspren as a connection to Division hadn't occurred to me. A very good point. I do think that's more of a conceptual connection than literal use of the Surgebinding power.

I'm pretty sure the Stoneward spren is called peakspren.

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

On 18/8/2022 at 3:45 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, the tear in reality appearance of highspren as a connection to Division hadn't occurred to me. A very good point. I do think that's more of a conceptual connection than literal use of the Surgebinding power.

Yeah that’s what I’m saying, they don’t so much use the Surges as live them.

Also, with creatures of thought, what is the difference between conceptual and literal?? 

On 18/8/2022 at 3:45 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I'm pretty sure the Stoneward spren is called peakspren.

Oops got my wires crossed, thanks for catching that 

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:49 AM, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Also, with creatures of thought, what is the difference between conceptual and literal?? 

From the spren's perspective, probably very little if any. But from a human 'science' perspective there is a difference.