Yumiya

Sja-Anat's Plan

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Sja-Anat is shown to be rebelling against Odium. She wants to be free of him, and just be herself. She also has been known to corrupt spren, lesser in older days, higher in the present (At least according to Hessi). She only "Enlightens" willing spren and Mistspren seem some of the most willing to work with her (see Glys).

If I were an unmade trying to release my bonds to Odium, I would find a rival force and bind them to me. The Radiants. And we see her doing it in the present. But could she have started her plan long ago? She grants Fore sight to "Enlightened Radiants" like Renerian. She has access to some of the powers of Odium. Maybe she saw something of what is happening now ans saw an opening for success. So she starts creating "Enlightened Radiants" way back before the fall of Urithiu. 

We see a recording in the Library room that might support this. A particularly small emerald (polestone of Truthwatchers and same order as Renerian). Dawer 30-20.
 

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

The secrecy and the foreseeing reminds me alot of how Renerian acts. So, Sja-anat had corrupted higher spren in place during the evacuation of the tower, Truthwatchers specifically. She manipulated events to finally get rid of Rayse. She specifically called Taravangian a weapon.

 

Big take away would be that the old Knight Radiants had some members that had bonded Corrupted spren, and this is why Sja-Anat was the most feared. She basically had spies and minions inside the orders. (Yes I know it says only "lesser" spren, but that could have been a cover up to keep the people's faith in the Knights strong, or simply a mis-translation or error in transcription.)

Quote

"Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only "lesser" spren - whatever that means."

 

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Renarin is the first of his kind, so Sja-anat could not have corrupted Truthwatcher spren back in the old days:

Quote

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

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52 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

Part of me wants to say, "Ok, theory disproven" 
The other part of me wants to say, "Sanderson answered that question way to readily, he has to be pulling some word paly, like first to exist in this generation of Radiants or first Radiant to exist this return or something else is going on with Renarin (like holding a dawnshard...) or being descended from a herald, that technically makes him the first. Maybe he is just the first to be openly accepted by the Radiants."

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2 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Part of me wants to say, "Ok, theory disproven" 
The other part of me wants to say, "Sanderson answered that question way to readily, he has to be pulling some word paly, like first to exist in this generation of Radiants or first Radiant to exist this return or something else is going on with Renarin (like holding a dawnshard...) or being descended from a herald, that technically makes him the first. Maybe he is just the first to be openly accepted by the Radiants."

I doubt it. Although Brandon has been a little tricksy in the past, assuming that the WoB's apparent meaning is completely untrue seems a little too much, especially considering the rather sparse evidence we have for the contrary to the WoB to be true.

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Ok, we will say that it is disproven until proven otherwise.

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Posted (edited)

I am of the opinion that this WoB is a complete mistake by Brandon since there really is no way to interpret that recording. He probably got a little too excited and forgot thaat there was a minor character who had a corrupted spren before. Why else would it be a 'particularly small emerald?'

Edited by KaladinWorldsinger
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2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I am of the opinion that this WoB is a complete mistake by Brandon since there really is no way to interpret that recording. He probably got a little too excited and forgot thaat there was a minor character who had a corrupted spren before. Why else would it be a 'particularly small emerald?'

That's possible I suppose, but we know it used to be thought that Sja-Anat couldn't corrupt radiant spren. And I don't see why she simply wouldn't if she could have all along. So clearly something changed, at some point, to allow this

Additionally, futuresight was well-known to be considered a thing of voidbinding (even in this radiant's time, given they felt the need to hide their vision), so there seems to have been some other means of voidbinding to see the future besides being an Enlightened Truthwatcher for it to be widespread information. But if that's the case, then we have no real reason to assume this radiant was enlightened

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22 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

That's possible I suppose, but we know it used to be thought that Sja-Anat couldn't corrupt radiant spren. And I don't see why she simply wouldn't if she could have all along.

We have no confirmation that sja anat could not corrupt radiant spren before. In her interlude, she says she could not corrupt Oathgate spren before. As for why she wouldn't, the radiant spren has to be willing. The spren hate humans right now, but back then they were buds. Why would they enlighten?

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1 hour ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

That's possible I suppose, but we know it used to be thought that Sja-Anat couldn't corrupt radiant spren. And I don't see why she simply wouldn't if she could have all along. So clearly something changed, at some point

Maybe Odium becoming more Invested in Roshar (the whole "Pure Tone" thing) granted Sja-anat more Connection to Rosharan spren?

Or - possibly more likely- Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment made sapient spren more changeable (in the same way that it made them deadeye-able)?

I am not sure how much weight we can put on the cultural idea that future sight is of the enemy/Voidbinding: future sight is a general Spiritual Realm thing that isn't in any way exclusive to Odium.

I think it's still very unknown whether normal Truthwatchers had future sight or not.

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4 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I am of the opinion that this WoB is a complete mistake by Brandon since there really is no way to interpret that recording. He probably got a little too excited and forgot thaat there was a minor character who had a corrupted spren before. Why else would it be a 'particularly small emerald?'

Because seeing the future is forbidden. It's probably a normal Truthwatcher thing, but Honor's restrictions prevented it from being used until he started to die. Just like seeing Connections for Bondsmiths.

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

We have no confirmation that sja anat could not corrupt radiant spren before.

She said that they couldn't corrupt powerful spren before in Oathbringer and Mystical makes it clear the Radiants we're convinced she could only corrupt lesser spren.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because seeing the future is forbidden. It's probably a normal Truthwatcher thing, but Honor's restrictions prevented it from being used until he started to die. Just like seeing Connections for Bondsmiths.

I doubt it. Otherwise we'd see the other Truthwatchers start to do what Renarin does. And even if there's some reason that they can't do it yet, wouldn't that kind of ruin the point of corrupted Truthwatchers? It takes them from something incredibly special and unique to just regular Truthwatchers but worse, as they can't do Illumination very well.

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6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I doubt it. Otherwise we'd see the other Truthwatchers start to do what Renarin does. And even if there's some reason that they can't do it yet, wouldn't that kind of ruin the point of corrupted Truthwatchers? It takes them from something incredibly special and unique to just regular Truthwatchers but worse, as they can't do Illumination very well.

I'd imagine that regular Truthwatchers would be as good as seeing the future as corrupted Truthwatchers are at making illusions.

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Just now, Frustration said:

I'd imagine that regular Truthwatchers would be as good as seeing the future as corrupted Truthwatchers are at making illusions.

Do you have an explanation as to why they get three surges?

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Just now, Nameless said:

Do you have an explanation as to why they get three surges?

What's the third surge?

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Just now, Frustration said:

What's the third surge?

Illumination, Progression, and whatever you call Futuresight.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Illumination, Progression, and whatever you call Futuresight.

Another aspect of Illumination.

Just like how you can use Adhesion for Connection manipulation and to make full-lashings.

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Just now, Frustration said:

Another aspect of Illumination.

Just like how you can use Adhesion for Connection manipulation and to make full-lashings.

I don't see it. Cohesion is connecting things. That can mean physically sticking them together, or it can mean spiritually connecting them. What is Illumination that encompasses both illusions and futuresight? I'd say it's far more likely that normal Truthwatchers can use Illumination to see the truth in people, gain insight as to their Spiritual.

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9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't see it. 

Truthwatchers are opposite Bondsmiths on the Surgebinding chart for a reason. 

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Just now, Frustration said:

Truthwatchers are opposite Bondsmiths on the Surgebinding chart for a reason. 

That doesn't mean they have Futuresight. Being able to see into someone's soul would be plenty enough to justify that.

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6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That doesn't mean they have Futuresight. 

No, it doesn't but with that, the emerald, and the WoB it makes a solid case.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Being able to see into someone's soul would be plenty enough to justify that.

When does a Regular Truthwatchers ever do that?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, it doesn't but with that, the emerald, and the WoB it makes a solid case.

With the emerald and the WoB it becomes a possibility. Not a likely one, in my opinion. The question still remains as to why modern Truthwatchers haven't seen the future yet.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When does a Regular Truthwatchers ever do that?

They don't. However, this ability would fit their name, and Renarin sees a possibility of what Moash could have been. As Renarin is a corrupted Truthwatcher, it would make sense for normal Truthwatchers to have a similar yet different power. Being able to see what people are fits with that.

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Posted (edited)

Future sight might also be a combined use of Illumination and Progression, the way a Reverse Lashing combines Gravitation and Adhesion.

Adolin gets a vision of his 'ideal self' when healed by Renarin, which makes me think that the visions aren't pure Illumination.

OTOH, Shallan sketches things that are really happening elsewhere, so some degree of 'visions' may be available to Lightweavers as well, though not future visions per se.

40 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'd say it's far more likely that normal Truthwatchers can use Illumination to see the truth in people, gain insight as to their Spiritual.

Given the ideal-self thing with Adolin, I'm not sure these things are as distinct as all that: the Spiritual is timeless, so insight into someone's Spiritual aspect should include insight into their past and possible futures.

I agree that normal Truthwatchers probably have much less extensive future sight than Renarin, and the uncontrollable nature of his visions is also weird and probably Voidbinding related. But I do think normal Truthwatchers have some ability to perceive possible futures through the Spiritual side of their abilities.

--

EDIT: Have we ever seen a normal Truthwatcher do anything except heal? We haven't seen much of them at all. Most Radiants learn one of their Surges before the other.

Renarin's vision of what Moash could have been is reminiscent of (Mistborn)

Spoiler

Malatium (Kelsier's Eleventh Metal).

I think that is totally in line with seeing someone's Spiritual aspect.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Given the ideal-self thing with Adolin, I'm not sure these things are as distinct as all that: the Spiritual is timeless, so insight into someone's Spiritual aspect should include insight into their past and possible futures.

I agree that normal Truthwatchers probably have much less extensive future sight than Renarin, and the uncontrollable nature of his visions is also weird and probably Voidbinding related. But I do think normal Truthwatchers have some ability to perceive possible futures through the Spiritual side of their abilities.

I could see some insight, but I don't think that Truthwatchers have any sort of ability to see specific events like Renarin does. More along the lines of a slight hunch that something might happen.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

With the emerald and the WoB it becomes a possibility. Not a likely one, in my opinion.

The WoB has to outright be wrong for it to be anything other than canonical.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

The question still remains as to why modern Truthwatchers haven't seen the future yet.

It took Dalinar over a year at the third ideal in order to see Connections. Something we know Melishi could do. Additionally, there are only two regular Truthwatchers. So with that in mind I say it would be weirder if they had seen the future.

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53 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I could see some insight, but I don't think that Truthwatchers have any sort of ability to see specific events like Renarin does. More along the lines of a slight hunch that something might happen.

I was thinking more like visions of possible future versions of specific people being normal Truthwatcher ability, whereas Renarin's expansive uncontrollable future visions being an Enlightened/Voidbinding thing.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It took Dalinar over a year at the third ideal in order to see Connections. Something we know Melishi could do.

Hmm, the visions being a "Truthwatcher Unchained" post-Honor-death thing would fit.

I still think the uncontrollable nature of it is probably the Voidbinding influence though, since it's similar to Death Rattles.

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