Tamriel Wolfsbaine

Biochromatic aura and copperclouds

7 posts in this topic

Would a coppercloud be able to hide a biochromatic aura or simply dim it?   

Vin and Marsh (and other powerful seekers) could faintly hear even when in copperclouds.  So where is the line drawn for what a coppercloud can and cannot do?  

Could copperclouds block lifesense?   I believe I saw a WoB once that said it could.  

(When you reach perfect lifesense at the 4th heightening would it pierce a coppercloud?   Or could you gain stronger lifesense even than that as you keep climbing the ladder?) 

Would copper hide biochromatic aura from a person?   Would it hide it from objects that are awakened?   Would it all just be a breath threshold where it can hide an aura of X heightening and lower / object awakened with x breaths or lower?   Simply dampening the amount of aura that shows?   Maybe a 5th heightening awakener appears as a 1st or 2nd instead?   Or just that you have to have more breaths to recognize auras inside of a coppercloud?  

Copper does appear to have different power levels as it can be flared and it can be slowly burnt so I assume the strength of a cloud is not an all or nothing thing.  More like a thick fog.  Bright enough light will eventually be seen...

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59 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Copper does appear to have different power levels as it can be flared and it can be slowly burnt so I assume the strength of a cloud is not an all or nothing thing.  More like a thick fog.  Bright enough light will eventually be seen...

I always saw Copperclouds as having a kind of strength spectrum, like what you say here. It seems to me like someone who's really good at using Copper (savant, mayhaps?) could probably make a Coppercloud that even a powerful Seeker like Vin would need to push a little harder to pierce. And someone burning Copper who has a really low power level (maybe caused by the ability to burn Copper being granted by a severely decayed Hemalurgic spike) could have their Coppercloud pierced by a normal Seeker flaring Bronze. If a Mistborn uses Duralumin with Copper, maybe the only way to pierce that very strong (although very brief) Coppercloud would be an equally strong usage of Duralumined Bronze.

As for how that translates to Bichromatic Auras....It's been a while since I last read Warbreaker, so I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that if it's a small aura, a Coppercloud could easily hide it completely, but it might take a stronger Coppercloud, even to the level of Duralumin Copper, to hide an Aura of hundreds or thousands of Breaths.

You're right about the Coppercloud hiding Lifesense:

Quote

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

So, Lifesense will be blocked by Copper. But I think you're right in that someone with Perfect Lifesense could probably pierce that Coppercloud, because their sense is stronger. However, if that Coppercloud is flared or Duralumined, maybe that extra burst of power would be enough to block even the Perfect Lifesense.

It's all on a power spectrum, and so you have to take that in account. If the Coppercloud is stronger than magic sense, the magic sense is smothered. But if the magic sense is stronger, the Coppercloud is pierced.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, The Bookwyrm said:

I always saw Copperclouds as having a kind of strength spectrum, like what you say here. It seems to me like someone who's really good at using Copper (savant, mayhaps?) could probably make a Coppercloud that even a powerful Seeker like Vin would need to push a little harder to pierce. And someone burning Copper who has a really low power level (maybe caused by the ability to burn Copper being granted by a severely decayed Hemalurgic spike) could have their Coppercloud pierced by a normal Seeker flaring Bronze. If a Mistborn uses Duralumin with Copper, maybe the only way to pierce that very strong (although very brief) Coppercloud would be an equally strong usage of Duralumined Bronze.

As for how that translates to Bichromatic Auras....It's been a while since I last read Warbreaker, so I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that if it's a small aura, a Coppercloud could easily hide it completely, but it might take a stronger Coppercloud, even to the level of Duralumin Copper, to hide an Aura of hundreds or thousands of Breaths.

You're right about the Coppercloud hiding Lifesense:

So, Lifesense will be blocked by Copper. But I think you're right in that someone with Perfect Lifesense could probably pierce that Coppercloud, because their sense is stronger. However, if that Coppercloud is flared or Duralumined, maybe that extra burst of power would be enough to block even the Perfect Lifesense.

It's all on a power spectrum, and so you have to take that in account. If the Coppercloud is stronger than magic sense, the magic sense is smothered. But if the magic sense is stronger, the Coppercloud is pierced.

I have also thought about copper and its interaction with other metals and senses.   

Bronze and copper both in a seeker booth... if it is like a cloud of fog it makes sense that a low burning coppercloud could allow for a seeker standing next to them to listen to everything that the cloud isn't covering.   Perhaps copper is stronger the closer it is to the allomancer and weaker as it stretches.  Then if you have a seeker flaring or if bronze by virtue has a slightly larger range.... they can seek beyond where the copper ends hiding them and allowing them to seek outside the 10 yard radius or whatever. 

If... that is how it works would lifesense also be able to push out beyond the copper clouds AOE?  Like you know a person is coming but the closer they get to your copper allomancer the fainter their lifesense is until it disappears?  

 

*I know that the MAG is not cannon and I don't want this use of it to take away from legitimate discussion on the use of copper and its interaction with other metals.* 

In the MAG copper is smaller radius than bronze.  Both can increase radius through stunts.  Bronze can always detect allomancy outside of the coppercloud but must roll inside of it.   (At least that is how I read it.)   In alloy of law it introduces a coppercloud stunt that allows you to have the effect only be on yourself still hinting that possibly if you had bronze also via hemalurgy or whatever you could effect and seek while hiding just yourself.  

I cannot for the life of me remember a time Vin would seek while burning copper though.  Maybe it happened maybe it didn't.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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Here's the Coppermind overview of Smoking:

Quote

A copper Misting is known as a Coppercloud or Smoker. When an Allomancer is burning copper, the pulses from nearby Allomancers cannot be detected by most Seekers.[1] Allomancers with a Hemalurgic spike that enhances their natural ability with bronze, genetically more powerful Allomancers, such as those created with lerasium, and bronze savants are all capable of "piercing" a coppercloud.[2][3] Nicrosil can also allow a Mistborn or a Seeker to pierce a coppercloud for a brief moment; duralumin would also work for a Mistborn.[4] Multiple Smokers burning copper in the same area will make the resulting coppercloud harder to pierce.[5] As few Allomancers have the ability to pierce a coppercloud, Smokers are of central importance when Allomancers are trying to hide. If a Seeker is inside of a coppercloud, they will be unable to receive any pulses from the outside.[6] Copper is the slowest burning metal of the basic eight Allomantic metals.[7]

Copperclouds can also block other uses of Investiture. On Scadrial, this is most commonly seen in its ability to protect the user from emotional Allomancy;[8] protecting others in the cloud's boundaries is very difficult but not impossible.[9] Copperclouds also block other methods of detecting Investiture, such as an Awakener's lifesense or a secretspren's ability to sense the use of Investiture.[10][11] Additionally, a coppercloud can interfere with more passive uses of Investiture; for example, it can prevent a singer from attuning a Rhythm and affects how spren act.[12][13]

I agree with @The Bookwyrm, it is about relative power and it's confirmed frequently in the citations. Notably, Lifesense is a misnomer, as it isn't actually sensing when things are alive. Lifesense doesn't detect Drabs, and a Feruchemist fully storing their Investiture into a Nicrosilmind would be undetectable to someone with Perfect Lifesense. Copperclouds may also be able to dampen the effect of the augmented colors around an Awakener.

It is noted that Bronze Savants can pierce Copperclouds, but it depends on the strength of the Bronze and the Copper. I imagine that in the same way that many Seekers become Savants without even realizing it, many Smokers become Savants as well without ever realizing it.

I'd guess that it is very likely that a Seeker can still Seek from within a Coppercloud, sensing the pulses emanating from outside of the Coppercloud's effects. The Steel Ministry used this to great effect with their Soothing stations, which were staffed with a Soother, a Smoker, and a Seeker. This implies to me that there is a known average or typical radius of a Coppercloud and Seeker's senses. Seeker Savants extend the radius of their ability to sense. It's technically possible to get to ludicrous levels of Seeking, like being able to pierce a Coppercloud from 50 miles away

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If copperclouds can stop other investiture senses, why do they not stop the bluelinesight from iron and steel?

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13 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

If copperclouds can stop other investiture senses, why do they not stop the bluelinesight from iron and steel?

They don`t stop all investiture senses, just investiture detection senses such as lifesense which detect the investiture in other people, and as seen in SA the investiture of spren. 

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There are two kinds of Investiture: Kinetic investiture (Awakening, Lashing things, Steelpushing) and being Innately invested (Having a Heightening, Bonded to a Spren, Having a Forgery applied to you). I have assumed that Seekers can detect the former, while Lifesense detects the latter.

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