Mzuka

Ba Ado Mishram & the First Desolation: The Heralds, Queen Tsa and The Girl Who Looked Up

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Really like this idea of BaM being the Singer version of what the sibling is to humans. 

There is something already which links Singers to Roshar and that's the Rhythms so don't you think that's what she would be the Speen of. Would help explain how she managed to get voidlight by attuning the song of power and it'd probably be very useful to get singers to attune the correct rhythm to get them in the mindset to attract void spren for Regals. 

Edited by Stonerward
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Amazing theory, you've definitley convinced me. The only past theory that convinced me this much was one I read that claimed Ishar is Tezim (pre Oathbringer) which turned out to be correct.

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13 hours ago, Stonerward said:

Really like this idea of BaM being the Singer version of what the sibling is to humans. 

There is something already which links Singers to Roshar and that's the Rhythms so don't you think that's what she would be the Speen of. Would help explain how she managed to get voidlight by attuning the song of power and it'd probably be very useful to get singers to attune the correct rhythm to get them in the mindset to attract void spren for Regals. 

Like a spren of Rhythms/songs? That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure to be honest...but it could fit with how the Sibling couldn't hear their song after the imprisonment (thoguh that could just be cause Honor is dead). And the Sibling does say that Mishram's imprisonment touched all who belong to Roshar so there's that...

But I think if she was just the spren of Rhythm's then the parshmen wouldn't have been specifically affected. I think it more likely that Mishram had a Rhythm in the same way the Sibling's Rhythm was the Rhythm of the Tower - and the song of science.

I don't know what Mishram's would have been though. The Rhythm of Freedom? Song of songs? No idea tbh.

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On 7/8/2022 at 10:09 PM, Gderu said:

Amazing theory, you've definitley convinced me. The only past theory that convinced me this much was one I read that claimed Ishar is Tezim (pre Oathbringer) which turned out to be correct.

Thanks! And yeah that theory was rock solid.

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I really like this theory. I thought The Girl who Looked Up was possibly about moving to Roshar from Ashyn (thus the appearance of highstorms for the first time) but I guess Shinovar is also highstorm free...

Though both events could have gotten blended into one over millennia of legend, so the same story kind of refers to both now that they're not remembered as separate events (or as historical events at all).

I didn't get the broader connections of the Queen Tsa story at all.

Mishim = Mishram is especially interesting because isn't there a reference to "Honor's Moon" which would imply the three Shards are linked to the three moons?

But Odium wasn't originally one of Roshar's Pure Tones... if Mishram was originally of Roshar pre-Odium, but is of Odium now, that could explain the connection.

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3 hours ago, Icy said:

What if unmaking Ba Ado Mishram is not only what broke the connection between the singers and the spren, but what created a connection between the singers and voidspren/odium which allowed them to take forms of power? Did Singers successfully infuse Mishram with voidlight, like they attempted on the Sibling in RoW, in order to corrupt the spren and subsequently their bond to all spren to become of odium, creating a connection between the Singers and Odium? 

What if unmaking the Sibling would have done something similar to the humans? The humans were losing access to the surges in the tower because their connection to the spren through the Sibling was being destroyed, but what if it was actually "switched" via the influx of voidlight? When Kaladin fought and defeated the Pursuer, he didn't glow blue with stormlight.

Like voidlight? Did the partial corruption of the Sibling create a new connection between humans and Odium allowing them to use voidlight? It would explain the gruesome nature of Kal's defeat of the Pursuer. Kal, in a rage of fury and passion, was clearly drawing some sort of power, inspiration, or SOMEthing from Odium - it was a moment of passion and hatred. Would Kal have drawn voidlight if the tower wasn't corrupted? Was this just a side effect of the tower's corruption? Maybe, but i dont think so. I think this was this a symptom of the real effect of unmaking the Sibling - corrupting the bond between humans and spren. 

I also think this could be why Odium was able to send Kal the nightmares/visions. The corruption of the tower seems to have buffed Odium's connection with the humans as the Sibling was being unmade.

More importantly, if unmaking Mishram allowed Singers to take forms of power, could rescuing Ba Ado Mishram reverse the effect and return to Singers their true forms? 

 

Don't think so Bo Ado Mishram would still be an unmade even if free. More importantly she was a source of forms of power when she was free I don't see how it would be different. 

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On 7/8/2022 at 1:52 AM, Mzuka said:

This is a theory I've been chewing on for a while but haven't wanted to post because I haven't had the time to put all the pieces together. Anyway, here goes:

 

The tale of Queen Tsa is a story about a woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling to the heavens. She is aware that going to the heavens is forbidden for mortals, but still she ascends (by tricking the green moon Mishim to trade places with her). She eventually returns to the world, however she is carrying the child of Nomon, the blue moon god of her people. Her son bears the "mantle of the heavens" and she believes he will lead her people to glory.

 

I love this! I think you nailed it. I had assumed the child of Queen Tsa was the Sibling prior to RoW, but after RoW I kind of forgot about Queen Tsa entirely :). I really like the idea that BAM was The Sibling before the Sibling. They both make Light her entrapment hurting all spren of Roshar fits with her being of both Honor & Cultivation like the Sibling. 

Connecting Mishim from the Tsa story to how the Heralds call BAM "Mishram" really cements it to me. The Betrayal of Mishram that Kalak mentioned being humans using the powers (or at least the Light to fuel the powers) she gave humans to conquer Singers makes sense to me. 

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On 7/13/2022 at 10:38 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I really like this theory. I thought The Girl who Looked Up was possibly about moving to Roshar from Ashyn (thus the appearance of highstorms for the first time) but I guess Shinovar is also highstorm free...

Though both events could have gotten blended into one over millennia of legend, so the same story kind of refers to both now that they're not remembered as separate events (or as historical events at all).

I didn't get the broader connections of the Queen Tsa story at all.

Mishim = Mishram is especially interesting because isn't there a reference to "Honor's Moon" which would imply the three Shards are linked to the three moons?

But Odium wasn't originally one of Roshar's Pure Tones... if Mishram was originally of Roshar pre-Odium, but is of Odium now, that could explain the connection.

I do think the events could have blended together as these things do - and Shinovar was basically an extension of Ashyn on Roshar. For the Honor's Moon stuff, for sure and I think each of the moons align with one of the Shards here. I think it's more thematic than anything though, and even a bit of a red herring as its the connection I initially drew. I agree that the Unmaking of Mishram was probably a big step towards Odium becoming part of Roshar.

On 7/14/2022 at 7:00 AM, Icy said:

What if unmaking Ba Ado Mishram is not only what broke the connection between the singers and the spren, but what created a connection between the singers and voidspren/odium which allowed them to take forms of power? Did Singers successfully infuse Mishram with voidlight, like they attempted on the Sibling in RoW, in order to corrupt the spren and subsequently their bond to all spren to become of odium, creating a connection between the Singers and Odium? 

What if unmaking the Sibling would have done something similar to the humans? The humans were losing access to the surges in the tower because their connection to the spren through the Sibling was being destroyed, but what if it was actually "switched" via the influx of voidlight? When Kaladin fought and defeated the Pursuer, he didn't glow blue with stormlight.

Like voidlight? Did the partial corruption of the Sibling create a new connection between humans and Odium allowing them to use voidlight? It would explain the gruesome nature of Kal's defeat of the Pursuer. Kal, in a rage of fury and passion, was clearly drawing some sort of power, inspiration, or SOMEthing from Odium - it was a moment of passion and hatred. Would Kal have drawn voidlight if the tower wasn't corrupted? Was this just a side effect of the tower's corruption? Maybe, but i dont think so. I think this was this a symptom of the real effect of unmaking the Sibling - corrupting the bond between humans and spren. 

I also think this could be why Odium was able to send Kal the nightmares/visions. The corruption of the tower seems to have buffed Odium's connection with the humans as the Sibling was being unmade.

More importantly, if unmaking Mishram allowed Singers to take forms of power, could rescuing Ba Ado Mishram reverse the effect and return to Singers their true forms? 

 

Really like the idea of Unmaking Mishram establishing the Connection between singers and Odium! Seems very plausible. For the Kaladin scene in particular, I read the yellow eyes as a Connection to Odium due to his emotional state: Odium was trying to make Kal his champion and the death of Teft had put him in a vulnerable state. But the two don't have to be exclusive. I feel like it makes sense mechanically.

I don't think freeing Mishram would reverse the effect though cause as @bmcclure7 said, she would still be an Unmade.

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I love this! I think you nailed it. I had assumed the child of Queen Tsa was the Sibling prior to RoW, but after RoW I kind of forgot about Queen Tsa entirely :). I really like the idea that BAM was The Sibling before the Sibling. They both make Light her entrapment hurting all spren of Roshar fits with her being of both Honor & Cultivation like the Sibling. 

Connecting Mishim from the Tsa story to how the Heralds call BAM "Mishram" really cements it to me. The Betrayal of Mishram that Kalak mentioned being humans using the powers (or at least the Light to fuel the powers) she gave humans to conquer Singers makes sense to me. 

Thanks! Honestly, I hadn't connected the Tsa story and all these dots to the Sibling at all until recently.  If it's true it adds some new context to why the Sibling seemed so resentful of Melishi's plan to trap BAM, and why they withdrew after her binding.

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I'm pretty convinced by this that the unmaking of Mishram (and maybe the other Unmade) was the thing the Fused did that pissed off the spren in the first place, and the stories are metaphors for humans dealing with Mishram and the spren.

A couple of things stick out for me though:

 

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men

This suggests that humans can bond in a way that Singers cannot, but we have seen multiple Singers bond spren. Even the Sibling seemed certain it was possible, and it seems down to trust that this bond does not happen rather than physiology. The stones of Urithuru have also spoken to Singers who have the surge of Stoneshaping before. It is therefore not this bond that is the 'meat' that spren sought.

The second issue adjacent to this is one of chronology. The Fused appeared before the Heralds received their powers from Honor, and the Knights Radiant (i.e humans with surges) came after the Heralds and were not expected by Honor. That means that whatever it was that led to the Fused feeling screwed over by spren going over to humans happened before they got Radiant bonds.

Another is that while I think you're right it's about humans effectively breaking their promise by getting in touch with the mysteries of the world, spren, and light etc. the story also seems to hint pretty heavily at the origins of the Siah Aimians. Is this perhaps a hint that whatever the original type of connection made for the smartest spren was to do with the Siah? Were they spren who were brought over in a way that allowed them to entirely experience humanity and start families with them? 

Finally there's a possibility further to this that I was considering based on your evidence. The Everstorm was necessary for the Singers to get complete access to powers once again and for Voidspren to freely jump between realms without Odium, but outside of that it required Mishram to give Singers powers. The quotes you give indicate that humans brought the highstorm in a way not dissimilar to the Everstorm, which Odium apparently can't put back in the cogitive realm either:

Quote

each storm brought light renewed, for it could never be put back, now that it had been taken

So my suggested amendment to your proposal is that humans did make a deal with Mishram and the spren as in the stories, which changed everything and provoked the Singers to turn to Odium, but that this brought the Highstorm as a permanent fixture over from the cognitive realm and somehow created the Siah rather than just Radiant bonds. The highstorm then led to high spren being able to give surges later on even with Mishram becoming Unmade.

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This is a great theory! You’ve convinced me. Pretty sure there’s an army of awespren around me in the Cognitive Realm right now. They broke the magic system because I felt such powerful awe. Seriously this is awesome! How in the raging winds did you have time to make this? 

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On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

This suggests that humans can bond in a way that Singers cannot, but we have seen multiple Singers bond spren. Even the Sibling seemed certain it was possible, and it seems down to trust that this bond does not happen rather than physiology. The stones of Urithuru have also spoken to Singers who have the surge of Stoneshaping before. It is therefore not this bond that is the 'meat' that spren sought.

True we have seen singers form a Nahel bond with spren, but these kind of bonds didn't exist until the spren started mimicing what Honor did with the Heralds. The Stoneshaping that the Dawnsingers did use the same surge, but they didn't form Nahel bonds. I believe this Desolation is the first time a singer Radiant has ever been form, given Leshwi's shock when she saw Venli's spren.

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

Finally there's a possibility further to this that I was considering based on your evidence. The Everstorm was necessary for the Singers to get complete access to powers once again and for Voidspren to freely jump between realms without Odium, but outside of that it required Mishram to give Singers powers. The quotes you give indicate that humans brought the highstorm in a way not dissimilar to the Everstorm, which Odium apparently can't put back in the cogitive realm either:

So my suggested amendment to your proposal is that humans did make a deal with Mishram and the spren as in the stories, which changed everything and provoked the Singers to turn to Odium, but that this brought the Highstorm as a permanent fixture over from the cognitive realm...

For the point about the highstorm, I think Brandon has said they predated even Honor and Cultivation's arrival. They might not have been Invested though, so perhaps that's the change that occurred (though I don't know how singers would Stoneshape without Stormlight). It's also possible that spren were not a heavily in the Physical in all of Roshar prior to humans arrival. We see in the books that humans attract lesser spren - emotion spren and all that - much more than singers. Perhaps prior to the Heralds meddling. spren interacted with the Physical Realm much less directly?

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

The second issue adjacent to this is one of chronology. The Fused appeared before the Heralds received their powers from Honor, and the Knights Radiant (i.e humans with surges) came after the Heralds and were not expected by Honor. That means that whatever it was that led to the Fused feeling screwed over by spren going over to humans happened before they got Radiant bonds.

On this, while I agree that the Fused appeared before the Oathpact, that does not mean that the Heralds were not tampering with Surges prior to this - it was exactly that that led to the destruction of Ashyn. 

"A Bondsmith [Ishar] bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better.” - Syl (Rhythm of War, Interlude 1)

Ishar is fond of fiddling with Connection (lol) and pulling things between realms - even to this day. Maybe he himself formed a bond with Mishram, or one of the other Heralds did (I actually think Chana is another one who might have been heavily involved but that's a tangent). I don't know how Surgebinding worked pre-Nahel bond but if anyone could, it's Ishar. Regardless, this could be what pissed the Fused off.

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

Another is that while I think you're right it's about humans effectively breaking their promise by getting in touch with the mysteries of the world, spren, and light etc. the story also seems to hint pretty heavily at the origins of the Siah Aimians. Is this perhaps a hint that whatever the original type of connection made for the smartest spren was to do with the Siah? Were they spren who were brought over in a way that allowed them to entirely experience humanity and start families with them? 

This is what's really blowing my mind though cause I hadn't been able to parse through that connection. The Siah Aimians have always seemed similar to spren (what with the wrong way shadows, sculpting their bodies). They particularly resemble honorspren in skin tone, and their nails etc. - especially after RoW when we see what an honorspren looks like pulled into the Physical Realm for real. Dalinar even initially mistakes an honorspren corpse for a Natan man.

Before that, I couldn't see how any spren would interbreed with humans so it seemed irrelevant, despite the fact that the crux of Tsa's story is her having hybrid child with a god/spren (Honor's moon, of all of them).

Spren want to get closer to the Physical Realm: that's the whole deal with the Nahel bond, and is what the listeners and singers see as their reason for choosing humans over singers. But Mishim/Mishram wants so much more in the story: she wants to physically come down and enjoy the world of mortals:

"she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35)

Perhaps Ishar helped her and some other spren - forefathers of the Siah? - temporarily experience the Physical, in the flesh? Which is definitely something the singers couldn't offer:

"We can't provide what the humans lend/Though broth are we, their meat is men" (Words of Radiance, 32)

Note the language of the listener song: it's temporary, just as Mishim's exchange with Tsa is temporary. It seems like a bit too much of a crack theory, but consider the fact that Ishar is literally doing this exact thing right now (his Essence is Flesh by the way, shoutout @Argent).  

What I can't figure out is how they would have done this back in ancient times, cause if they were able to do it back then surely Ishar wouldn't be so bad at it now? Unless they had a tool then they don't have now, one that would somehow make transforming spren into Physical beings possible. A magical tool of transformation, such the Dawnshard of Change? The one that was hidden in Aimia, with the Siah. I'm gonna stop there because my speculation is going to get tooooo wild haha.

A couple of other interesting questions maybe someone else can think about: what happened to all the smart spren that existed before the humans? The ones that the singers imagined, with four genders. Cause those are the ones that I assume would be closest to Mishram, magically speaking.. A lot of them might have been bonded to Radiants (which could be why they decided to break their bonds when they bound Mishram - or to do with whatever they feared).

"I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren." - Kalak (Rhythm of War, 94)

Who are the Nahel spren? I've always thought of it as the sapient spren, which I'm sure it does mean as well, but where did that term come from historically? How does it tie to Mishram, and the original betrayal of the spren? Why did Ishar think that forming new Nahel bonds would trigger a Desolation? I feel like he may have been the reasoning force behind the Recreance, since at least Nale and Kalak were there and they seem to take his lead on Realmatics. 

Edited by Mzuka
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15 hours ago, Friendly Cremling said:

This is a great theory! You’ve convinced me. Pretty sure there’s an army of awespren around me in the Cognitive Realm right now. They broke the magic system because I felt such powerful awe. Seriously this is awesome! How in the raging winds did you have time to make this? 

Hahaha thank you! The answer is it took several days typing out bits and pieces when I had a minute. Didn't really mean for it to be that long but I kept finding more interesting connections and questions while looking at the stories.

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An interesting theory, good job! I think other have speculated along similar lines, e.g. @LewsTherinTelescope asked a relevant question that got mostly RAFO'd:

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

There is quite a bit to read in this thread (and it might not be the original birthplace of this idea), but one of the things I like from it is the linguistic examination of Ba-Ado-Mishram's

  • Ba, similar to "bah," a Thaylen word that seems to convey the relationship between a master and an apprentice (e.g. Rysn Ftori bah-Vstim) but that could've easily started off as one suggesting parenthood. It is notable here that the Thaylen language may have been derived from the Dawnchant, so it's plausible that the ancient word for "child of" could've morphed into "apprentice of" or something like that
  • Ado, half of adoda, the Alethi word for "light" and also the way you'd "read" the adoda glyph (you would "write" the characters for A, D, and O, and let the symmetric nature of the glyphs "autocomplete" the rest so it's symmetric)
  • Mishram. The similarity to Mishim here is clear, but you go even further. If you treat Mishram's name the way you would some other names composed of Alethi words (e.g. Kholin is khokh + linil), you can break it into Mishim + Ramar. That's not super useful to us, but other names break differently - Sebarial's glyphpair, for example, comes from sebes + laial, and if you apply this logic to Mishram you get Mishim + Maram... which is awfully close to Mishim + Merem, and merem is the Alethi word of honor. 

All together, I think there are more connections that we can discard easily. I particularly like the idea that the two Hoid stories were inspired by the same historical events. Some of the details don't quite work for me, but I think the general shape of it is very sound and I am happy to support the theory :)

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7 hours ago, Argent said:

Mishim + Maram... which is awfully close to Mishim + Merem, and merem is the Alethi word of honor.

There was also a vowel shift in the language at one point, 

Spoiler

jimmy0056

 I was just wondering are kelek and kalak the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, indeed they are. A vowel shift happened in the language between the two time periods.

General Twitter 2010 (Oct. 6, 2010)

 

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On 7/16/2022 at 3:20 AM, Mzuka said:

Why did Ishar think that forming new Nahel bonds would trigger a Desolation?

Honor raved that Surgebinding would destroy Roshar. I think "Surgebinders will cause a new Desolation" was Ishar's crazy interpretation of that-- he probably doesn't want to remember what he caused on Ashyn, especially now that he sees himself as a god. And as a Herald a return of the Desolation cycle & associated torture would be his primary fear.

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Very good and solid theory. I'm very inclined to believe you're right

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Thanks @Argent this is very interesting. I think I watched the stream with the WOB but didn't know what the question was based on. That's some heavy-duty etymological analysis., damn...the fact that everyone came to similar ideas regarding BAM's nature based off that is really cool and telling.

One thought I have is on the breakdown of the name meaning, specifically the "Ba" part of it, and it's parallel's with the master-apprentice relationship in Thaylenah:

23 hours ago, Argent said:

Ba, similar to "bah," a Thaylen word that seems to convey the relationship between a master and an apprentice (e.g. Rysn Ftori bah-Vstim) but that could've easily started off as one suggesting parenthood. It is notable here that the Thaylen language may have been derived from the Dawnchant, so it's plausible that the ancient word for "child of" could've morphed into "apprentice of" or something like that

What if the original word the it is derived from wasn't a parent-child relationship, but a master-slave relationship?

Thinking about how Kalak refers to BAM as 'Mishram' not 'Ba-Ado-Mishram'. If my theory is correct about the Heralds knowing her before she was Unmade, then this could be done out of familiarity: perhaps she only got the 'Ba-Ado' suffixes after being Unmade (same might be true of some of the others)? A new name seems appropriate for such a drastic shift in Identity.

In that case, her being named the 'child of the Light Cultivation and Honor' after being corrupted by Odium doesn't make much sense, but 'enslaved/Taken from the Light of Cultivation and Honor' (or something denoting a slave made from their 'Light') is appropriate. 

Of course, Kalak might have just been using shorthand and her name could have been BAM from the get-go. Either way the linguistics seem to support the theory :)

Edited by Mzuka
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@Mzuka I have personally my own theory that Shalash is the gIRL who looked up. Shalash has white hair in official depictions and Ash has a red scarf if I am not mistaken. We know jezrien was a king, so Shalash would be a princess? Maybe shalash  is actually princess tsa not queen tsa and the details got forgotten.

One issue I have about the theory is it completely ignores Natan people being aimian hybrids which was the point of the whole story.

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On 7/18/2022 at 1:44 AM, Argent said:

There is quite a bit to read in this thread (and it might not be the original birthplace of this idea), but one of the things I like from it is the linguistic examination of Ba-Ado-Mishram's

There's actually also one other thing which @mdross81 pointed out when I first posted the breakdown (don't remember where I posted it, never got around to making a thread): there's a Sanskrit word (explicitly one of the source languages for the Dawnchant) which is sometimes romanized as "mishra", and which according to @asmodeus (I think) actually would be "mishram" in one of its grammatical forms. And what does this word mean? "Blended" or "mixed". Yet another route to the same conclusion.

On 7/18/2022 at 8:50 AM, Frustration said:

There was also a vowel shift in the language at one point, 

  Reveal hidden contents

We also may have reason to believe that "maram" specifically was once a word before that A -> E shift, because it may survive in Amaram's name, the way "Kalak" survives in Kaladin's name. While unfortunately there's no source, I've been told by someone else of a WoB that claims Amaram's name is based around the Alethi word for "bravery", which seems to me to be a word that would likely be closely related, especially with how Amaram's standard is merem and khakh for "honor" and "determination".


On 7/8/2022 at 1:52 AM, Mzuka said:

Queen Tsa is The Girl Who Looked Up

Huh. This... makes a surprising amount of sense. I like it! And not just because it supports my own theory :ph34r:

I think the Eila Stele is relevant to the BAM theory:

Quote

Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

"Wind" being Stormfather, "spren" being Mishram, perhaps?

I think this also helps explain why the Sibling was so much more strongly affected by Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment than anyone else we've seen, if they were strongly Connected beings that in essence were two halves of the same concept (spren connection to the beings that imagine them).

Spitballing, maybe the reason deadeyes happen now is that (total guess, we don't know if this is how it works) the bonding process involves kind of partially switching over from "general belief about this Ideal" to "this being's belief about this Ideal", and without BAM, who under this theory is an embodiment of that Connection to the wider population, they can't switch back and fill the hole left by their bondmate abandoning belief in the concept the spren embodies?

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On 7/20/2022 at 10:08 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

@Mzuka I have personally my own theory that Shalash is the gIRL who looked up. Shalash has white hair in official depictions and Ash has a red scarf if I am not mistaken. We know jezrien was a king, so Shalash would be a princess? Maybe shalash  is actually princess tsa not queen tsa and the details got forgotten.

One issue I have about the theory is it completely ignores Natan people being aimian hybrids which was the point of the whole story.

There's only one piece of official artwork that depicts Shalash with white hair though (Oathbringer, I think), and none show her with the red scarf - those are all fan drawings. And I would take the text as canon over artwork, and in the books she's described as having dark hair - and never with a scarf. All the same, Shalash is a Herald so I assume she was involved, though I don't know in what capacity.

As for the Natan people, them being descended from the Siah is pretty clear and it's what the story is about on the surface - I didn't see any point in rehashing it in the theory. I did get into how I think the Siah fit into the history with the Siah in this reply though: 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108858-ba-ado-mishram-the-first-desolation-the-heralds-queen-tsa-and-the-girl-who-looked-up/?do=findComment&comment=1365478

Long story short I believe it ties into what Ishar is up to right now with his spren experiments.

 

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On 7/21/2022 at 4:37 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's actually also one other thing which @mdross81 pointed out when I first posted the breakdown (don't remember where I posted it, never got around to making a thread): there's a Sanskrit word (explicitly one of the source languages for the Dawnchant) which is sometimes romanized as "mishra", and which according to @asmodeus (I think) actually would be "mishram" in one of its grammatical forms. And what does this word mean? "Blended" or "mixed". Yet another route to the same conclusion.

Thanks as always for the shout out @LewsTherinTelescope.

Not sure if your response to my post was the first time you explained your take on the etymology of BAM, but I know you mentioned it there.

And, more germane to @Mzuka’s theory, you even speculated in that thread that BAM may have been like the Sibling once:

 

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What a wild and wonderful theory!

If I can add my thoughts to the pile:

The Wall could represent the Misted Mountains that separate Shinovar from the rest of Roshar and block the highstorms. The Girl climbing the Wall would be her trekking through the mountain range.

I get the sense that the Betrayal (or whatever we’re calling it) was more complex than has been revealed. From Leshwi’s reaction to Timbre it would seem she thinks the burden of guilt is on the Singers. Honour seems to have sided with the humans, and I would think Honour of all beings wouldn’t have sided with the people that broke an agreement. I think whoever the Girl/Tsa represents exploited a loophole or pushed the terms of the refugee deal enough that it provoked the singers (undoubtedly with Odium’s urging) to fully break the agreement, beginning the Desolations.

Assuming the moons represent the Shards in some way, Mishim would be Cultivation, so Tsa in the story would be swapping places with Cultivation or a spren particular to her (like the Nightwatcher?). I wouldn’t put it past either of them as something they would want to re/experience. Further, this would mean according to the story Tsa had a child with Honour (or the Stormfather)!

As people have mentioned above, the story of Queen Tsa is a Natanese(?) story to explain their blue skin, B.S. has said they are blue from Siah Aimian ancestry; so perhaps the Siah are descendants of the Girl/Tsa and Tanavast!

If we assume the Girl/Tsa is a female herald; perhaps it could be Vedel who, as the Edgedancer herald, is associated with white as well as Cultivation.

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Kudos on your magnificent work.  I see no holes.

When I think back about all the fantasy stories I've enjoyed over the years that ended up not really making much sense in the end, I'm filled with awe at what Brandon is doing here.  To have so many layers of story, history, legend and myth - so seemingly mysterious and scattered at first - remain coherent and consistent over SO MANY novels (and short stories) verges on the superhuman.  Yes, I'm very impressed by this amazing scholarly effort by @Mzuka, collecting and connecting all these ideas.  I never could have done it.  Yet this isn't research into "real" myths or history, which are created randomly by countless people over thousands of years;  everything we cleverly manage to "figure out" was MADE whole cloth from the mind of the BrandoSando.  The way all the myriad disparate details eventually fit together and make sense is what keeps me coming back to the Cosmere.  Well, that, and the amazing, believable, relatable characters.  And the action.  And the humor.  And the astute exploration of current social and philosophical themes.  And...

Ugh.  It's possible Brandon has soured me on all other authors.

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12 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

What a wild and wonderful theory!

If I can add my thoughts to the pile:

The Wall could represent the Misted Mountains that separate Shinovar from the rest of Roshar and block the highstorms. The Girl climbing the Wall would be her trekking through the mountain range.

I get the sense that the Betrayal (or whatever we’re calling it) was more complex than has been revealed.

The Wall/mountains connection definitely makes sense.

I think so. I need to re-read the part of Oathbringer when it's discovered: I kind of get the feeling that Dalinar, given his personal history and his culture, automatically assumes the betrayal was a human invasion/conquest of singer lands,  but that may not actually be the case.

"Their betrayal extended even to our gods - spren, stone, and wind" doesn't really sound like a military invasion, more like co-opting the spren's relationship with the singers by giving them a better offer ("we can't provide what the humans lend/ though broth are we, their meat is men" from the WoR epigraphs).

The humans also 'brought Odium' in some sense, whatever that means.

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