Kaladin>Kelsier, Here's Why. #2 Will Shock You(Edited now has more info)

[S. Stormy]

I'm not saying Kaladin's a more interesting character. I'm saying, just as people, Kaladin is better than Kelsier. 

1. Selfless... or not?

 Kaladin is far more selfless than Kelsier. In Rhythm of War, he gives up the possibility of peace to save his friend. He is very willing to give up his own well-being for others.

But it seems like everything Kelsier does is to be THE AWESOMEST and to be seen as THE AWESOMEST. Which is a very different motivation.

2. Intentionally Starting Followings

Kelsier made a kandra imitate him to intentionally start a cult/religion.

All Kaladin had to do was be his awesome self-- and boom! Shash brands painted on foreheads galore! He wasn't even trying to start a cult. 

Quote

"I don’t think he’s right in the head. Well, pardon, most Windrunners ain’t right in the head. They act like some kind of cult to Stormblessed, Brightness, pardon, that, but they do that."

-Rhythm of War

Which isn't the same thing, I know. But Bridge Four sorta worship him a little, which he did not intend. So Kelsier worked to make people worship him, where as Kaladin just did his thing and oops, he (kind of) started a cult.

3. Grudges

Well, in the first couple books, Kaladin hates lighteyes. All. Of. Them. 

Well, in all of Kelsier's books, he. Hates. Nobles. He will kill nobles just for existing.

And even when Kaladin was at the worst of hating lighteyes, he didn't indiscriminately murder them. And he slowly learns to get over his grudge. 

I see that most nobles were actually evil in Mistborn, whereas not as much so in Stormlight. But still, Kelsier takes his hate to a disturbing level. And he basically refuses to see that any nobles could be good. Whereas by Words of Radiance, Kaladin is willing to see that lighteyes(Shallan, Dalinar) can be good people. Even when Kelsier saves Elend's life, he does it because of Vin, not because he thinks Elend is a worthwhile person. Whereas Kaladin uses what he thinks are his last breaths to try and protect a lighteyes(in WoR).

Honorary Mention: 4. The Ghostbloods???

Okay, this one is less supported and less reasoned out. <---(is that a thing people say?)

But I don't know, the Ghostbloods seem pretty shady. And... yeah. Kelsier... is...(beware, weird Cosmerian spoilers follow...)

 

 

Thaidakar! Leader of the Ghostbloods! And if that's not fishy, I don't know what is.

Disclaimer: I have not read Mistborn Era 2.(haha almost spelled Era as Ear)

But yeah! Feel free to argue discuss to your heart's content! I will see if anyone changes my mind...(do I know what that emoji means exactly...? not really. oh well.)

Edited July 1, 2022 by Shallan Stormblessed
Accidentally submitted before I was done

[SymphonianBookworm]

I think this is... true. 

[offer]

I kind of hated Kelsier from the first moment - when he killed the nobels in the plantation without caring for the skaa that whould be blamed for it.

His motivations were`nt to protect (as is Kaladin`s) but to kill the nobles.

[S. Stormy]

Aww, but he's so loveable! 

I mean Sanderson himself has said Kelsier's a psychopath...

but he's still so loveable!

Okay, but seriously. I liked him in Mistborn and

Spoiler

was devastated when he died...

but then I read Secret History and my respect/love for him went

EEEEeeeeooooosplat*

If you get my meaning.

 

*Translation: My respect level went down.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Shallan Stormblessed
Adding spoiler & fixing typo

[Odiumiumium]

Yeah Kelsier is definitely a psychopath(that word is so hard to spell), even in Era 2. He did do some good stuff then (some decent spoilers)

Spoiler

I believe he helped save the South Scadrians after Harmony was just like: people freezing to death?.... eh not my problem. Buuuut.... it was very unclear, since he kinda did some cosplay as the Lord Ruler, and we only see it through a coin that Hoid yeeted at Wax.

, but only behind the scenes, and not much else. And, yeah he started an interplanetary investiture-smuggling cartel or something. 

[Rune]

6 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

Yeah Kelsier is definitely a psychopath(that word is so hard to spell), even in Era 2. He did do some good stuff then (some decent spoilers)

  Hide contents

I believe he helped save the South Scadrians after Harmony was just like: people freezing to death?.... eh not my problem. Buuuut.... it was very unclear, since he kinda did some cosplay as the Lord Ruler, and we only see it through a coin that Hoid yeeted at Wax.

, but only behind the scenes, and not much else. And, yeah he started an interplanetary investiture-smuggling cartel or something. 

I mean, even then, he was only wanting to build his legend and have more worshippers

[elsoberanok]

On 1/7/2022 at 4:43 PM, offer said:

I kind of hated Kelsier from the first moment - when he killed the nobels in the plantation without caring for the skaa that whould be blamed for it.

His motivations were`nt to protect (as is Kaladin`s) but to kill the nobles.

Men do u remember that nobel violated and killed a lot of skaa

[offer]

6 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

Men do u remember that nobel violated and killed a lot of skaa

I am not mad at him for killing the nobel but for leaving the skaa there dealing with the consequences. 

Because of his actions all the Skaa in the plantaination had to ran away and likely die (I know that in the end at least some of them survived but it was very likely they would get caught and killed or worse).

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

Men do u remember that nobel violated and killed a lot of skaa

He grouped the innocent along with the guilty.

Anyone who worked for a noble, no matter what reason was in danger of Kelsier.

Elend, guardsmen, servents, it didn't matter to him.

[Duxredux]

I do think that this portrayal of what and why Kelsier did what he did is a bit unfair. By no means am I disputing whether or not Kaladin is a better person than Kelsier, but the original post is excluding some important components. Major spoilers for Kelsier's story.

Spoiler

 

I'll address points 1 and 2 together, whether or not he was selfless and intentionally starting followings. Kelsier is a psychopath, or at least has psychopathic tendencies, and this has an impact on what he does and his attitudes. That said, his grandstanding and promotion of his own fame among the Skaa was specifically to give the Skaa a new identity and a new god to worship other than TLR. The skaa revolution happened because Kelsier was intentionally creating a religion to supplant the Steel Ministry, and it seems as if the a lot of his attitudes about being happy, smiling, and sheer determination was perhaps accentuated by Kelsier to create a resilient people. In the same way that Lightsong manipulates people by promoting who he really is, with this advice passed on to Siri, I think we see Kelsier deliberately being more grandstanding, showcasing overcoming his weaknesses when he has to enter the rebellion's caves, showing off more then he would normally be if it wasn't part of The Job. I'll also note that we think of all the shenanigans that Kelsier has done since he became a Cognitive Shadow and gotten back into the Physical Realm, but he genuinely thought that there would be no afterlife when he sacrificed himself and gave his body to OreSeur to incite the Skaa. He thought he was going to die and that would be it. The fact that he has since cheated his way out of that particular consequence doesn't diminish that he really did sacrifice himself and intended to leave his friends and city a liberated empire. This is not to dispute that Kelsier is kind of a diva and loves an audience, but he had a reason for it beyond just his fame. It's not his fault that the Atium to control the armies and the other dominances wasn't where they thought it would be and his friends got kicked around by Straff Venture and Ruin.

Point 3, Kelsier's letter to Vin indicates that her original task after his death was to assassinate the heads of the noble houses, but he wrote that Vin convinced him that they didn't all need to die. This could be interpreted that he didn't think Vin would actually obey that directive, but he didn't have to write what he had originally planned for her. Kelsier was not happy at all when he learned that Elend had become king but... have we seen him slaughtering nobility since? I'm not sure if we have, and I have no idea what components of his ideology have persisted in the last 300 odd years. At the very least he's willing to work with or at least manipulate (SA Spoilers)

Spoiler

Gavilar. He was not the one to order Gavilar's assassination, though he was Gavilar's first guess.

Point 4, Brandon has actually addressed this, that you shouldn't base all of Mraize and Iyatil's behavior as indicative of Kelsier's current ideology. Emphasis on highlighted section.

Quote

Weiry Writer

Kelsier and Thaidakar. At what point did you decide Kelsier would be part of The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

Thaidakar isn't; his minions are! Pretty early on, there's a whole lot of Kelsier in Era 3 and as soon as I decided that when I outlined the original nine books as I was working on the original Mistborn trilogy I knew that there needed to be some more of him influencing the world/universe at large. He is a really fun character to write because he does not fit in boxes very well. He does like meddling. There are a lot of things I want to do with Era 3. 

One of my big concerns when I was building the outline with Kelsier, when I was building the outline for all 9 books before I added the Wax and Wayne books, back in 2004 when I was doing a lot of the big outlining for the cosmere - Emily's got to dig out that paper I once wrote out for her - I guess that would have been 2004 to 2006, because I got married in 2006, and it was 2007 where I drew that thing out for her. No actually it was summer 2006, because I didn't have my laptop with me which I wasn't allowed at the family reunion, so I instead had a notebook, because if I'm not allowed my laptop, I will have a notebook, and that's why we have a physical copy of this thing.

But when I was doing all that one of my big concerns was how to make sure people kept interested in Mistborn while I was potentially spending years and years away from it, at that point in the outline I was going to write Dragonsteel before Stormlight. And I started trying to do that in 2007, either way we're talking 5 to 10 years away from Mistborn at that point. How can I make sure that this stuff-? So I outlined Secret History that I could release in the meantime, and a potential Secret History follow-up. That I've mentioned before that I don't know if I'll ever write. It wasn't until 2010-2011, that I was like "why don't I write some short stories in this world to keep people focused on it?" And I tried one and it was bad, and I'm like "what if I just wrote a little novel?" I can do a little novel, right? And that's where Alloy of Law came from.

Technically speaking these are all solutions to the same problem, which is people can't forget about Scadrial it's really important. They can forget to an extent about Sel; it's still important, but it's not important on the level that Scadrial is gonna be. Scadrial has so many fingers in the technology of the future. So this was another method to make sure we had some Scadrian influence happening while I was in other worlds. Turns out we ended up getting ALL of them, we got Secret History, and The Alloy of Law, and the little fingers in The Stormlight Archive. But it was important to me that the fingers in The Stormlight Archive be through the frame of reference of The Stormlight Archive. 

Chaos

I definitely think Shallan learning about cosmere stuff is a good intro for Stormlight-only readers to get interested in the cosmere, kind of like Mistborn: Secret History is for Mistborn-only readers.

Brandon Sanderson

In Roshar if you learn, "Hey, there's more planets out there," and they see Roshar as something with a very valuable resource. That's enough of an intro to the cosmere to make it work in Roshar, and to make you prep for the future. That's why I did it the way I did. And also knowing people were more okay with this. But also I needed to get it in, I almost should have done it earlier. I saw people guessing that one by Words of Radiance. But by the time I was releasing Words of Radiance I was seeing fan theories that were like, "What if this."

Chaos

So like throwing darts on a dart board. "Ah, like this person's this other person."

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it might be that. The whole philosophy of the Ghostbloods was suppose to dove-tail with Survivorism. Survival of the fittest type stuff very much. I'm hoping from the things they've read in that they were able to connect the philosophies rather than throwing darts at a dart board, but it could have been the dart board thing.

FeatherWriter

It's funny because we already recorded the Kelsier podcast, but it's gonna come out after this one. You've put me in a very weird situation, because loved the Ghostbloods. I guess I still love the Ghostbloods, I have a terrible villain crush on Mraize, he's one of my favorite characters and Kelsier drives me crazy. So finding out they are intrinsically linked I'm like "Noo! Kelsier is ruining my favorite thing." But it does make sense I have to admit.

Brandon Sanderson

It's okay. Mraize does not have to do what he's told, and Iyatil who - that's the other thing once I dropped Oathbringer, and this is a southern continent Scadrian running around, this is pretty obvious connection to Scadrial. I had to eventually canonize that. Iyatil is - 

Don't consider people in the Ghostbloods flunkies. That's not a very Ghostblood-ish philosophy.

Chaos

I guess that makes sense, they're all trying to backstab each other. Well no I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not allowed to backstab each other. [too many people talking at once] [Ghostbloods have]? specific rules, because they need them to be very strong specific rules. If you have an organization of people who are drawn to the way Kelsier works you need some really strong rules. [Hosts laugh] When he is just with his crew, his force of personality, and the people he individually picks you're not gonna have that problem. 

I always imagine-you can relate it to Tor Books, they're all assassins. When Tor really functioned well, back in the 90s, it's because Tom Doherty could keep a close eye on everything. And he liked his editors being a little bit in competition with each other. And he structured his organization so that if you picked an author who did well, you got bonuses, based on how well the authors did which is just a way of working that could really lead to an unhealthy office environment, if you think about it. But if you have Tom there making sure that that doesn't become the case, and if you have Harriet watching and making it a good incentive, not a bad incentive, then it all works really well and you have one of the strongest sci-fi publishers that's ever existed, because everybody was incentivised to find really good stuff. But they were corralled by Tom Doherty and kept it from becoming toxic. But now that Tom retired I think they're changing a lot of that, because its grown too big for one person to watch over.

And it's the same thing with Kelsier, in an immediate organization of Kelsier's you're gonna find a well bonded crew of people hand picked who are going to work together as a team, and you aren't going to have to worry about too much about backstabbing - less than average for the type of organization that they are. But if his structure is outside of his direct manipulation, the type of people who would be attracted to the organization he makes...

Chaos

...Are not gonna be nice.

Brandon Sanderson

...You're gonna have some problems. Mraize would not say that he's not nice. [hosts laughs] Mraize would just say that his niceness is an analogous threshold that does not intersect with the threshold of competence and capability of things he's trying to achieve, those things don't need to overlap in his life.

He'd say he's a very nice person. He was very nice to Shallan by his definition. [hosts laugh] He was very nice to Lift by his definition of things. Think of all the things he could have done with Lift, and what did he do? He gave her as a present to an ancient being who ruled the tower, who could properly take care of one such as Lift.

Chaos

Mraize is very nice.

FeatherWriter

You heard it here, it's canon. Mraize is nice.

Brandon Sanderson

Mraize is nice, and he also wanted to keep his fingers and he felt that was a better way to keep his fingers, was to make sure Lift was someone else's problem. He got what he wanted, which was being able to capture her, which was not that easy, he would say. So he deserves to have whatever reward, because it was quite a difficult enterprise on his part. She is not easy to capture.

You know those Scadrians gotta keep an eye on things, they like to meddle.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

 

Long post hidden behind the spoiler; I think Kelsier is getting slighted a bit much, but yes, Kaladin is quite likely a better person than Kelsier is. In a different context, Kelsier could have been a terrifying villain and may not make the best decisions. That's foundational to the Brandon's original vision for Kelsier.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Duxredux
clarity

[elsoberanok]

22 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Creo que esta representación de qué y por qué Kelsier hizo lo que hizo es un poco injusta. De ninguna manera discuto si Kaladin es mejor persona que Kelsier o no, pero la publicación original excluye algunos componentes importantes. Grandes spoilers de la historia de Kelsier.

  Ocultar contenido

 

Abordaré los puntos 1 y 2 juntos, ya sea que él fuera desinteresado e intencionalmente comenzara seguidores. Kelsier es un psicópata, o al menos tiene tendencias psicópatas, y esto tiene un impacto en lo que hace y en sus actitudes. Dicho esto, su exaltación y promoción de su propia fama entre los Skaa fue específicamente para darles una nueva identidad y un nuevo dios para adorar que no sea TLR. La revolución skaa sucedió porque Kelsier estaba creando intencionalmente una religión para suplantar al Ministerio del Acero, y parece que Kelsier quizás acentuó muchas de sus actitudes sobre ser feliz, sonriente y pura determinación para crear un pueblo resistente. De la misma manera que Sondeluz manipula a las personas al promocionar quiénes son en realidad, con este consejo que se le pasó a Siri, creo que vemos a Kelsier deliberadamente siendo más grandilocuente. mostrando la superación de sus debilidades cuando tiene que entrar en las cuevas de la rebelión, mostrando más de lo que normalmente sería si no fuera parte de The Job. También señalaré que pensamos en todas las travesuras que Kelsier ha hecho desde que se convirtió en una Sombra Cognitiva y regresó al Reino Físico, pero realmente pensó que no habría otra vida cuando se sacrificó y entregó su cuerpo a OreSeur. para incitar a los skaa. Pensó que iba a morir y eso sería todo. El hecho de que desde entonces haya hecho trampa para salir de esa consecuencia en particular no disminuye que realmente se sacrificó y tenía la intención de dejar a sus amigos y a la ciudad un imperio liberado. Esto no es para discutir que Kelsier es una especie de diva y ama a la audiencia, pero tenía una razón para ello más allá de su fama. Eso'

Punto 3, la carta de Kelsier a Vin indica que su tarea original después de su muerte era asesinar a los jefes de las casas nobles, pero escribió que Vin lo convenció de que no todos tenían que morir. Esto podría interpretarse como que no creía que Vin realmente obedecería esa directiva, pero no tenía que escribir lo que había planeado originalmente para ella. Kelsier no se alegró en absoluto cuando supo que Elend se había convertido en rey pero... ¿lo hemos visto masacrar a la nobleza desde entonces? No estoy seguro de si lo hemos hecho, y no tengo idea de qué componentes de su ideología han persistido en los últimos 300 años. Como mínimo, está dispuesto a trabajar o al menos manipular (SA Spoilers)

  Revelar contenidos ocultos

Gavilar. Él no fue quien ordenó el asesinato de Gavilar, aunque fue la primera suposición de Gavilar.

Punto 4, Brandon en realidad ha abordado esto, que no debe basar todo el comportamiento de Mraize e Iyatil como indicativo de la ideología actual de Kelsier. Énfasis en la sección resaltada.

 

Post largo escondido detrás del spoiler; Creo que Kelsier está siendo menospreciado un poco, pero sí, es muy probable que Kaladin sea una mejor persona que Kelsier. En un contexto diferente, Kelsier podría haber sido un villano aterrador y puede que no haya tomado las mejores decisiones.  Eso es fundamental para la visión original de Brandon para Kelsier.

I have never agreed so much with a comment