Change my mind - Kaladin

[Adolin Dustbringer]

I know people have different tastes in characters, but I just can not stand Kaladin. It is like he cannot miss an opportunity to cry and be emo for the rest of the chapter. 

 

I understand the depression he is going through but it is just getting overwhelmingly annoying.

[StormingTexan]

I think I get where you are coming from. He seems to be universally liked and I have also struggled at times to like him as well (I actually wouldn't say he is my favorite character). I have had friends and family with severe depression some of the worst kind that ended it so it can be tough to read after a while. He is flawed. He also does the right thing even when it is not easy (although in a round about way sometimes) and his caring for his "people" is endearing. I guess I just take the good with the bad and I do like him as a character even if he is not my favorite. I feel like big things are going to happen to him in book 5 that may sway my feelings but this is purely a hunch. 

[Legui01010]

Do know that Kaladin is a special case, he has suffered quite a lot, time and time again, and it may be true that many times he breaks down, but he always jumps back. Like StormingTexan said above, Kaladin is great character but by no means my favourite, that spot would go to Dalinar or Vin in my case. Dalinar for owning up to his mistakes and trying to do better, and Vin's growing up from the first moment in the Final Empire.

1 hour ago, Adolin Dustbringer said:

I understand the depression he is going through but it is just getting overwhelmingly annoying

Also what book are you in? Cause there's quite a development in his emotional state with the passing of the books.

[StormingTexan]

17 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

Also what book are you in? Cause there's quite a development in his emotional state with the passing of the books.

This is a good point. I had a really tough time liking him in WoK specifically until the very end and this continued a bit in WoR but OB and RoW I think we really see improvement which I think was Brandon's idea all along. For sure my opinion of him improved as the story has moved along. 

[DiePie]

I found that it helps to understand that Kal's depression is supposed to be a little annoying. Brandon is trying to write a realistic portrayal of depression, and that means it's not going to just... go away because he says a few words or makes a decision. Mental health is not pretty, and is usually a "two steps forward, one step back" progression (or vice versa, though SA isn't a tragedy).

 

Doesn't stop me from skipping Shallan chapters though, so I get where you're coming from.

[Adolin Dustbringer]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

 

Doesn't stop me from skipping Shallan chapters though, so I get where you're coming from.

Surprisingly, I like Shallan a lot, she comes second after Adolin.

[Legui01010]

Shallan is a great character, though understandable that many hate her.

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

and that means it's not going to just... go away because he says a few words or makes a decision.

Exactly, I talked about this in another post, and one of the main things I like about Stormlight Archive. The path of Radiance, the swearing of oaths is the healing of oneself; this doesn't mean it will take the pain away. Look at Dalinar during Oathbringer, how he suffered at the end when facing Odium, or Kaladin during Rhythm of War. Swearing Oaths is just the first step, but like Dalinar said: "The most important step a man can take is the next one."

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Adolin Dustbringer said:

Surprisingly, I like Shallan a lot, she comes second after Adolin.

Me too! Her, Adolin and Jasnah are two of my favorites. I tend to like goofy characters as well so The Lopen and Lift are up there although I know they are not as popular choices. 

[Returned]

I agree insofar as I also find reading about characters in the grips of depression to be often dull, slow, and frustrating. On the other hand I think that describing him as taking every opportunity to "cry and be emo" to be pretty reductive and dismissive. It's sort of like saying that Tien took every opportunity to bleed out and die after getting stabbed with a spear, or a character with cancer taking every opportunity to be sick, or a character that isn't attractive taking every opportunity to repulse you-- it's not a circumstance that Kaladin can control, and in later sections of SA Kaladin really struggles against his depression and traumas (separately and together). He doesn't enjoy it any more than you (or I) do, and probably a lot less.

I'd describe the issue we share here (maybe not accurately for what you're saying) to be with the way that Kaladin's story is being written more than Kaladin being a bad character (though I'm not suggesting that that's your whole complaint). He still does all the cool stuff people like, but a lot of his on-screen time has also been repetitive, slow-moving, and unpleasant. I don't dislike him, even if I'm less excited in places about his story as presented. I like Spiderman, but wouldn't enjoy a movie in which all he does is fill out his tax return forms.

I have the same complaint about Shallan (especially in Oathbringer), though I really like her as a character as well. For my preferences there are just too many pages where nothing new develops for the characters or the plot in books that are long and complex enough to not need any filler. Whether or not they are important for longer term character and plot development, I don't love those sections. On re-reads of the books there are quite a few Kaladin and Shallan parts that I skim, or skip over entirely.

All that said, like you stated there's no accounting for taste and if you're not liking Kaladin I can certainly appreciate that. If the focus on his depression means that on balance his story segments aren't enjoyable for you, that's legitimate.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Returned

[Olmund]

I like Kaladin, but his character growth has been two steps forward, two steps back throughout the series. It's supposed to be an accurate depiction of mental illness, but it makes for a very rough ride as a reader -- my sister who deals with chronic depression had to stop reading the series, because eventually the "payoff" moments rang too hollow for her. The fact that Kaladin never becomes emotionally stronger in the 3.25 books she read was just too hopeless for her.

I've grown a bit annoyed with Kaladin for other reasons. RoW spoilers:

Spoiler

I don't like how he can casually slaughter Fused at basically 5% capacity.

I didn't like how, immediately after swearing the 4th ideal, he can instinctually send his shardplate to encase whatever he wants in the blink of an eye.

In essence, I'm tired of the gratuitous Kaladin moments trivializing things that should be huge obstacles. Brandon seems to have decided that Kaladin's weaknesses are all mental health challenges; he is able to overcome any physical challenge with minimal (if any) outside help so lang as he does not have a mental breakdown. 

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums

On 6/30/2022 at 8:40 AM, Adolin Dustbringer said:

I understand the depression he is going through but it is just getting overwhelmingly annoying.

What book/section are you reading; or have you completed all four novels and both novellas? Where you are in the character's arc can make a huge difference.

Depression is difficult - even by proxy. . .

On 6/30/2022 at 1:02 PM, Adolin Dustbringer said:

Surprisingly, I like Shallan a lot, she comes second after Adolin.

I used to like Shallan in TWoK and WoR. Then OB happened and she went from one of my favorite characters to one of my least-favorite (but I still like her better than Lirin). I hope to one day enjoy her sections more, but for now I just limit my exposure to her scenes.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[SymphonianBookworm]

I like Kaladin, but I get where your coming from. 

Seeing as I despise Shallan. 

Convince me I’m wrong; the books would have been better without her. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, SymphonianBookworm said:

Seeing as I despise Shallan. 

Convince me I’m wrong; the books would have been better without her. 

I also dislike Shallan, but without her Dalinar and the Alethi Armies die in the middle of the Shattered Plains trying to fulfill the Vengeance Pact (trapped between two storms, still trying to find Narak and without even knowing an Oathgate might be there, much less how to find/open it).

Does that make the books better?

Edited July 4, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I also dislike Shallan, but without her Dalinar and the Alethi Armies die in the middle of the Shattered Plains trying to fulfill the Vengeance Pact (trapped between two storms, still trying to find Narak and without even knowing an Oathgate might be there, much less how to find/open it).

Does that make the books better?

If Shallan wasn't there Brandon wouldn't have written the book like that, Jasnah wouldn't have been attacked and forced to flee(because that was only done for Shallan's arc) So she could have filled the same role.

[Gisaku75]

The problem of Kaladin's depression had already been extensively covered in the first 3 books. You could close at the end of Oathbringer with Kaladin taking the fourth oath and move on. Kaladin's story arc in book four is a tedious repetition of the evolutionary path taken before, and I hope it finally moves on.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, SymphonianBookworm said:

Convince me I’m wrong; the books would have been better without her. 

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I also dislike Shallan, but without her Dalinar and the Alethi Armies die in the middle of the Shattered Plains trying to fulfill the Vengeance Pact (trapped between two storms, still trying to find Narak and without even knowing an Oathgate might be there, much less how to find/open it).

Does that make the books better?

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

If Shallan wasn't there Brandon wouldn't have written the book like that, Jasnah wouldn't have been attacked and forced to flee(because that was only done for Shallan's arc) So she could have filled the same role.

Sounds like a difference in interpretation. I took "the books would have been better without her" to mean "the current books - minus Shallan;" whereas you took it to mean "rewrite the books without Shallan."

 

 

[SymphonianBookworm]

I understand how Shallan is important to the plot, but if everything happened (somehow) without Shallan, I would have liked the books more.