Long Game 87: Choose Your Own Manywar

[Elandera]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

probably a bad idea to run into this game full-tilt like a standard Village game even though I kinda want to.

The secret wincons concern me, which should be your number one reason to avoid treating it as a standard Village/Elim game. But I understand the draw.

5 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I village read Mat for this comment.

Definitely elim-reading Fifth for this comment... 

[Kasimir]

8 minutes ago, Elandera said:

The secret wincons concern me, which should be your number one reason to avoid treating it as a standard Village/Elim game. But I understand the draw.

To summarise what I've said elsewhere in a single line: yes and no. I think the secret wincons alter the dynamics of the game but I also firmly believe that information is power and that's something that has to be balanced for. We see this in the standard uninformed majority-informed minority dynamic of a regular SE game. I am not sure this substantively changes the fact that the Elim faction is a problem for everyone else. At the same time, the Revolutionaries and Elims do share part of their wincon. And the more I think about it, the more I feel it's the standard faction game dynamic anyway - because the Elims have a kill and can infiltrate other factions, they have an informational advantage and a kill (!) This makes them likely to be kingmakers, although any faction can have kingmaker potential depending on the gamestate. I wouldn't overly focus on the secret wincons because the mere fact we have multiple factions with incompatible wincons means the dynamic will not be standard Village/Elim, and there will be horsetrading. I'm more - well, as mentioned, I seldom play faction games, so my basic reflex is always standard Village/Elim, and second, in the state of our ignorance, it seems to me that we're compelled to go standard Village/Elim anyway. I'm sure this will change somewhat once we have our factions, but that's a tomorrow problem and today me doesn't feel indebted  

...Single paragraph maybe?

[Stick.]

Obligatory hi post

I read my GM PM and realised I didn't know what half the words meant so I had to read the rules five more times 

But I think we're good now, I mostly understand things except for the things I don't ( ͡ᵔ ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ ͡ᵔ)

[Young Bard]

8 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I feel like I should go into one of the secret factions. It just feels right, for some reason.

I have a suspicion that everyone will put at least one secret faction in their preferred choices, maybe even all three. I mean, who doesn't want to be in a secret faction?

Nothing to see here...  :-P

[Kasimir]

25 minutes ago, Young Bard said:

I have a suspicion that everyone will put at least one secret faction in their preferred choices, maybe even all three. I mean, who doesn't want to be in a secret faction?

Nothing to see hee...  :-P

Me?

I just want to be where my bros are  One of the main reasons I signed up.

[The Wandering Wizard]

Some secret factions probably have a shared wincon with other factions like the royalist doves.

[Steeldancer]

A few small notes! Uh, if you somehow didn't get a GM PM, please let me know. I think now I actually got everybody, despite me being really, really bad at math. 
Second, remember you only have about.... 9 hours left to get your choices in! If not, I'm sticking you wherever I want. 
Third, I didn't clarify this very well, but there are no actions tonight, along with there being no kill or anything like that. This is functionally just a turn for PMs, rule reading, and choosing of factions. The game will start in earnest D1. 
I think that's everything for now. 

[JNV]

Question for @Steeldancer does the 'excluding the doves' bit from the hawk wincon mean that the Hawks have to keep the Doves alive also will you accpet close synonyms of commands or dos it have to be word for word what you have until sixth

At least one of the unknown factions can win with Doves cause there has to be at least one nonhostlie faction so doesnt want to kill all royals so if youre a royal who doesnt like the hawks or doves try for that I guess and at least one of the unknown factions is hostile to revolutionary goal of killing all royals so wants royals alive might be same one might be different who knows 

also I guess you can try to think of it as a Royal v Killers v Other game with the royals in dispute of each other also so I guess Royal Succession War v Killers v Other as long as the Revolutionaries will work with the infiltrators which works for both of them honestly evil could infiltrate Revolutionaries then reveal and say 'hey were proposing an alliance of evil so we can all win together and kill the royals' 

6 hours ago, Kasimir said:

there will be horsetrading

Hi what does horsetrading mean thanks 

I think Im going to try PMing everyone just for fun so if I miss you and its been like an hour let me know Im probably just going to ask about your favorite food or something

[Steeldancer]

12 minutes ago, JNV said:

Question for @Steeldancer does the 'excluding the doves' bit from the hawk wincon mean that the Hawks have to keep the Doves alive also will you accpet close synonyms of commands or dos it have to be word for word what you have until sixth

It basically means, they don't have to kill all the doves to win. That would be fairly unbalanced, which is why that line is included. 
I will accept close synonyms, because of *intent*. However, it should be doable to get the exact commands. 

[Kasimir]

2 hours ago, JNV said:

Hi what does horsetrading mean thanks 

Basically coalition-bargaining. Doesn't matter if wincons are incompatible - sometimes you just need each other for that particular cycle and then you can worry about who is going to backstab whom tomorrow. Sometimes you need to throw in temporarily with one enemy. Faction games have that dynamic a lot more for obvious reasons.

[The Unknown Ajah]

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

It basically means, they don't have to kill all the doves to win. That would be fairly unbalanced, which is why that line is included. 
I will accept close synonyms, because of *intent*. However, it should be doable to get the exact commands. 

Are the Commands going to be closer to Grab Person, or Roleblock person?

Could a sixth heightening make a command particular to a person? Like strangle/kill Steeldancer? 

[Steeldancer]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Novel said:

Are the Commands going to be closer to Grab Person, or Roleblock person?

Could a sixth heightening make a command particular to a person? Like strangle/kill Steeldancer? 

Commands will be closer to grab person, with the effect of a roleblock. 
Please don't strangle Steeldancer, he does not approve of such actions. The 6th heightening... well I'll deal with it on a case by case basis. 

ALSO HALF AN HOUR TO GET YOUR PMS IN. Now I have 36 to go and read so excuse me while I go do that. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Steeldancer

[Steeldancer]

Alright the night is over, and the choosing is finished! Your faction PMs will be sent out shortly! 
Let the show begin! 
(cackling in the background, thunder strikes ominously)

[Steeldancer]

Day One - Ready, Set, FIGHT
Sides had been chosen, the lines in the sand had been drawn. 
The most important factions were well known in the Royal Court. They had many supporters, but those were divided between those who desired war with the other nations, the Hawks, and those who desired an end to the Manywar at almost any cost, the Doves. 
There were also those who despised the Royals for their recent choices. They were known as the Revolutionaries, for they were quite public in their efforts to get rid of the Royal family and bring about a new, more fair government, at any cost. 
However, as the King had suspected, there were other factors at work. Several smaller groups had managed to amass some power, with goals completely unknown. But it was known they had Breath, money, and influence. 
Even beyond that, a greater threat lurked. The country who had defeated Hallendren in the recent battle had sent spies to destabilize the government. These spies saw this splintering as an opportunity, and desired to utilize this to topple the royals and defeat Hallendren once and for all. 
And so, upon these developments, the day dawned. A day, beyond which, Hallendren would never be the same. 
~~~
Everyone should have gotten their new faction PMs, so let me know if you didn't get one. You all got distributed into something, so you deserve to be in the document for that. 
I might slightly change exactly when this day ends, but it'll most likely be something along the lines of pushing it back an hour or two so it doesn't interfere with family time during the day. I'll let you know the details as they occur. 
Also, for the record, there are a lot of PMs, and since I will be doing other stuff, I won't have time to read them all. I trust you guys, but if there are any problems, please just ping me or Devotary directly so I get the message. 
I think that's about it. Let the game (actually) begin! 
Turn will end in about 48 hours. So, 7PM 7/9/2022 MST. Or 9PM EST, which is what I'll be on at that point. 
Player List
 

Spoiler

1. Matrim's Dice- Samuel
2. The Unknown Novel- Dedarriel
3. HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES- Larinias
4. Ashbringer- Clem
5. Archer
6. The Wandering Wizard- Ormutag
7. Araris Valerian- Hadrani Pereniod
8. Fifth Scholar- Yallacero
9. Kasimir- Kirilas
10. Young Bard- Linish
11. Stick
12. Xinoehp512
13. Elandera
14. Sart- Arthas
15. Clanky- Ancy
16. Luckspren- Lelea Pendrose
17. JNV- Kalomi

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Steeldancer

[The Unknown Ajah]

@Steeldancer Will we be informed how research actions fail? Like breath amount, effect, or not existing.

[Kasimir]

The day dawned, the sun a bloody smear of red against the sky.

Kirilas stirred his tea moodily and flipped the sign on the cafe door from CLOSED to OPEN. It wasn't the fancy stuff he reserved for customers—a little extract of butterfly pea flower and some mixed in sugar, and you had sweetened tea where the colours settled in layers, mixing eventually. But what mattered was that you could market it as though it was the Tears of Edgli itself. People paid for that. Mostly tourists, elites. People who threw away money on curiosities.

Hallendren, city of colours, city of dyes, city of the exotic, the wild, the contents of fevered imaginings.

This was a regular cup of tea, though. He called it his morning blend. Bracingly strong, or Kirilas imagined he wouldn't be able to meet the day. Last he heard, the city was in chaos and the king was driving it all to ruin. People talked a lot, in cafes. They never seemed to think they would be heard. Sometimes, Kirilas felt as though you could take the pulse of Hallendren in a place like his cafe, where functionaries ate, and students whispered; where some whispered of revolution, or even BioChromatic discoveries.

It was a quiet morning in the cafe, and as Kirilas set the first batch of pastries into the oven to bake, he hoped it was going to be a good day.

[Mat]

It’ll be interesting to see how the exe plays out since we’re probably divided pretty well. Anyone have a guess on the numbers?

[Kasimir]

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the exe plays out since we’re probably divided pretty well. Anyone have a guess on the numbers?

Personal guess:

4/4/4 for Hawks/Doves/Revolutionaries, 1/1/1 for secret factions. Adds up to 15. Probably anywhere between two to four Elims, lean stronger on three.

Suspect Elims need to outnumber in total rather than per faction since the latter is easier to achieve, but could be wrong.

Either way, recall we can't win the game - any of us - until six Commands are researched as well, so there's the game ending condition to think about, then a race to fulfill wincon by the time the first faction does.

Edited to add:

3/3/3 - 2/2/2 also possible, but I doubt it: too much swing.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Kasimir

[Steeldancer]

3 hours ago, The Unknown Novel said:

@Steeldancer Will we be informed how research actions fail? Like breath amount, effect, or not existing.

You know what, I hadn't thought about that. But I'll make the call that yeah, I'll inform you what was wrong. I'd rather not make it impossible for the game to end. 
RULE CLARIFICATION: Various win conditions refer to outnumbering other factions. This doesn't count all people in those other factions together, but rather the people in each individual faction. So, a faction of 2 would outnumber 3 factions of 1 people. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Steeldancer
Rule clarification

[Ashbringer]

I've got a feeling not all Secret-ish Factions need the same number of players. 

[Kasimir]

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

RULE CLARIFICATION: Various win conditions refer to outnumbering other factions. This doesn't count all people in those other factions together, but rather the people in each individual faction. So, a faction of 2 would outnumber 3 factions of 1 people. 

This is very interesting. This is pushing me towards agreeing with Ash. Making all the secret factions small, one member factions would result in de facto helping the Elims with their wincon too much. Admittedly would also defeat the social element/expectation of a faction game.

[Young Bard]

I'm guessing a few people in my faction haven't logged in yet, or at least I'm hoping my faction doesn't have that few people in it. So I'll probably have a better guess for distributions once I actually know how many people are in my faction.

Obviously, the Foreign Infiltrators are going to want to spread out, for maximum information (it's also possible they might put two people in the same faction, either because they didn't all get their first preference or because they wanted to avoid being caught more easily. Still, with 6 factions and almost certainly not more than 4 Elims, that leaves at least 2 factions without a Foreign Infiltrator. If Kas is right and the secret factions are smaller, then presumably the Infiltrators might go for the non-secret factions for the extra information. But, it could also go the other way, in that the secret factions might not be directly opposed to the Foreign Infiltrators, and knowing their wincon helps them plan, and maybe even form a truce later in the game.

[Mat]

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

4/4/4 for Hawks/Doves/Revolutionaries, 1/1/1 for secret factions. Adds up to 15. Probably anywhere between two to four Elims, lean stronger on three

Do note that there are 17 players  

If there were 18 I’d say it probably is 4/4/4 and 2/2/2 but there isn’t, and I doubt there’s a faction with only one unless one of the secret ones was originally only gonna have one. I think 4/4/3 and 2/2/2 isn’t unreasonable, but 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 also makes sense. Which secret faction would have two in that case, I don’t know.

Either way, we all have a common goal, and that’s the infiltrators— I think they can be caught by watching how loyal everyone is to their faction goal. So people should watch faction members in that regard. I don’t think the Infiltrators will be obvious about it, of course, but we should keep in mind that they have an ulterior goal.

Voting Stick has never gone wrong for me, nope! Never.

[Kasimir]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Do note that there are 17 players  

Urgh, damn, I've got 15 stuck in my head somehow 11 Thanks man :joy:

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

If there were 18 I’d say it probably is 4/4/4 and 2/2/2 but there isn’t, and I doubt there’s a faction with only one unless one of the secret ones was originally only gonna have one.

Partly meta here, but Steel loves his SKs and I would not be terribly shocked for one faction to be de facto SK, which means aan'allein. 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 makes sense, and 4/4/3 is reasonable as a starting distribution for the three Primary Factions as well. I guess it's one of those 'we have ranges but in the current state of our ignorance...' type cases right now.

Don't forget the Cowardly Elite will also toss a spanner into the works IMO.

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Either way, we all have a common goal, and that’s the infiltrators— I think they can be caught by watching how loyal everyone is to their faction goal. So people should watch faction members in that regard. I don’t think the Infiltrators will be obvious about it, of course, but we should keep in mind that they have an ulterior goal.

This is only true if you aren't a revolutionary, and it may not be true of the secret factions. I don't actually think the Doves are as committed to finding Infiltrators either - killing Infiltrators helps to keep Royals safe but as long as the Six Commands are researched, another secret faction has won, one Royal still lives, and numDoves > numHawks, they've won.

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Voting Stick has never gone wrong for me, nope! Never.

Wow, how very hawkish of you :eyes:

[Fifth Scholar]

14 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

This is only true if you aren't a revolutionary, and it may not be true of the secret factions. I don't actually think the Doves are as committed to finding Infiltrators either - killing Infiltrators helps to keep Royals safe but as long as the Six Commands are researched, another secret faction has won, one Royal still lives, and numDoves > numHawks, they've won.

I think the Revolutionaries and the Infiltrators are less of a permanent alliance than the rules may make them out to be—if the research and Royal-killing conditions are both fulfilled, whoever has more members among the two wins, so they both want to be the “larger” faction at that point. They can only work together for so long before they’ll be forced to reckon with each other. Same, obviously, with the two Royalist factions, who will want to collaborate to protect the Royals and get rid of Infiltrators/Revs, but can’t exactly afford to ignore each other either once the hostile factions start dropping. Faction alliances will likely shift as the game goes on. But yeah, early-game, I doubt the Revs will be after Infil blood too much. If only because of that, I get the idea that the Royalists are probably a bit larger, and that the Infils are a direct threat to most of the secret factions. (Well, they’re a direct threat to everyone because of the kill, but you get my point >>) 

Quote

Obviously, the Foreign Infiltrators are going to want to spread out, for maximum information (it's also possible they might put two people in the same faction, either because they didn't all get their first preference or because they wanted to avoid being caught more easily. Still, with 6 factions and almost certainly not more than 4 Elims, that leaves at least 2 factions without a Foreign Infiltrator. If Kas is right and the secret factions are smaller, then presumably the Infiltrators might go for the non-secret factions for the extra information. But, it could also go the other way, in that the secret factions might not be directly opposed to the Foreign Infiltrators, and knowing their wincon helps them plan, and maybe even form a truce later in the game.

@Young Bard, I have mentioned this in PMs, but if the Infiltrators are smart and intended to spread out, they’d have distributed all six factions among their (probably three) members’ top two choices, and prioritised the public ones which are likely to be larger. As you’re pointing out, though, this strategy, while being the most effective, is also the most predictable, so it’s probably not wise to say “this is for certain what the Elims did.” It’s also complicated by the possibility of people teaming up on factions and locking the Elims out, or possibly locking multiple Elims in. One of my main fears currently is an Elim faction-hopper, which would not be fun to reckon with >>

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I've got a feeling not all Secret-ish Factions need the same number of players. 

Agree, @Ashbringer; while 4/4/3/2/2/2 makes the most intuitive sense to me, 4/4/3/3/2/1 is also possible, and just from the sounds of them, the Cult and the Edgli groups seem like they might function with only one starting member, and possibly be conversion or missionary factions a la Jaddeth from LG12/44.