discuss Was Paalm a Puppet of Trell?

[Duxredux]

The linchpin for this idea came from a question that came to mind while viewing other threads, though I will admit that it's based on supposition and unconfirmed ideas. I'm not asking if Paalm was influenced or corrupted by Trell, that much is obvious, I'm wondering if the control was to the extent to make her a slave as Marsh was.

Ruin could corrupt and alter a person with even a small degraded Hemalurgic spike, as seen with Lord Penrod who eventually drove Luthadel to collapse. However, it seems that Harmony required 2 Spikes in Bleeder to take control of a Kandra. Three spikes was the limit that the Set determined would let them avoid influence from Harmony. I'm not sure why there is this great of a disparity.

The question is this: how much control would Ruin have had over someone with a freshly charged Atium spike in them? It would make sense to me that Ruin would have much, much deeper control with his own essence piercing the soul of his slave. The follow up question is if a single spike of Trellium would have given Trell sufficient power over Paalm, particularly if Trell could make Paalm think that there wasn't anything wrong? This would be in the same way that Ruin could make Marsh think death and ash was beautiful, even while part of him was horrified at what he was doing.

A few things that have made me wonder this is that in BoM, we get transcripts of VenDell's interview with ReLuur while ReLuur was missing a spike. Compare ReLuur's behavior, language, and mannerisms to the level of control Paalm has when mimicking Governor Innate or taking up the persona of Lessie. Basically I think there's no way ReLuur could have held it together to do a fraction of what Paalm did. So why does Paalm have such control, creating and executing an intricate and convoluted plan that almost works without a hitch, tricking a city, Wax, and the Kandra? Why didn't she have a major personality mood swing when Wax shot her with his earring, making a mismatched Blessing that apparently was incredibly unpleasant when ReLuur was given one of TenSoon's spikes? What happened with Paalm is not consistent with what we see later without a Trellium spike. Basically, I think that there was a lot of control and planning involved with Paalm, it just wasn't her own. There's obfuscation in that Edwarn Ladrian says that the Set are merely riding the storm of Bleeder's campaign, but we now know that the Set follow Trell, and that spike was from Trell (or at least Brandon lets us call it Trellium.

Which brings me to my idea that Paalm was being controlled all along to do things that had she been sane might have agreed in a specific context, so even as a slave perhaps she never considered or even had the control to kill herself as she did at the end of SoS. I suspect she died there because Trell didn't want to reveal their hand more than had already been done. As a final note, at the end of BoM, Harmony says that Paalm would have remained "a slave in her mind" had Wax not killed her.

Thoughts?

[Treamayne]

Very interesting idea. I had always thought that the main reason for Ruin's control was that Hemalurgy was Ruin's metallic art. I hadn;t considered that the soul damage of Hemalurgy might make it possible for any Shard to influence that being. Especially with a spike of that Shard's godmetal granting complete control - but it certainly seems plausible. The discrepancies are present, and seem much more than can be accounted for *just* by Paalm's experience.

Granted, another possible influence for consideration. If Trell is Autonomy (or an Avatar thereof), what portion of the effects and discrepancies we see might be attributed to the properties of a Spike of Autonomy? This level of control seems counter to that intent.

Just grist for the mill. . .

[cometaryorbit]

We know too little about Trell to say anything solidly, but I'd guess that Trell has relatively little Invested in Scadrial and less Connection (compared to Ruin, who was one of the co-creators of the planet) and so probably can't control as completely as Ruin.

Anyway, Paalm was sufficiently messed up that it probably didn't take more than a nudge. (It might not even have required actual mental influence, just giving her the spike as a tool needed to hide from Harmony and words pointing her in the desired direction.)

[Returned]

Maybe? It's a valid idea, and there are discrepancies that this would resolve, though I don't think full, direct control is necessary to explain what we saw of Paalm. We've seen many people directed by Ruin without his obviously having control of their minds and actions, like Zane, Rashek, and especially Spook and Quellion. Verbal direction tied in with manipulative approaches was enough for them, so there is clearly an effective middle ground between full, direct control and meaningful influence. And if someone is following the advice of someone you trust (as with Spook and Quellion) I don't know how much internal control they really need at key moments. So puppetry is probably not necessary to guide someone through a complex plan.

And in relation to more specific issues, we have a few obstacles:

• We don't know a lot of specific details about how spikes affect cognition in kandra, so it's possible that one response or another is atypical but plausible.
• Paalm's Trellium spike(s) were probably not the spikes she started with, and we don't really know the effects of wholesale spike replacement on a kandra's mind, personality, or identity.
• Bleeder was a very experienced impersonator who was driven by a powerful, personal obsession, and also had a great deal of practice with spike-switching and her half-Blessing. These may have made it easier for her to stick to a purpose and keep her behavior in bounds from moment to moment, especially with some whispered encouragements from Trell.
• That's all a contrast to ReLuur, who was being asked to relate specific, new information on a little-known topic in one, specific setting after being the victim of a sudden, violent trauma to which he was not accustomed. We also don't know how recent his attack was before the other Kandra recovered him.
• We don't actually know how spikes made from one metal or another affect Shardic influence in Hemalurgy. The question in the OP about how much influence Ruin would have had over someone with an Atium spike versus another is a great one, but one which we can only answer purely by guessing (for now).

In summary I don't think that we really know how well ReLuur could have done in functioning on his own, we don't know that the effects he suffered from having only one spike are necessary or representative effects for all kandra, we have essentially no evidence that a one-spike kandra would be incapable of what Paalm accomplished, and the things she accomplished were the types of things she was best at and regularly did for most of her long existence. So puppetry is definitely possible and consistent with much of what we've seen, but requires a few large assumptions along the way, while more "normal" approaches to guiding Paalm aren't obviously unworkable. It's an intriguing theory but, for now, not Occam's Razor-compliant. I'm really excited for Lost Metal!

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A couple of other specifics that didn't fit into the summary:

On 6/25/2022 at 8:16 AM, Duxredux said:

Why didn't she have a major personality mood swing when Wax shot her with his earring, making a mismatched Blessing that apparently was incredibly unpleasant when ReLuur was given one of TenSoon's spikes?

This one, at least, is addressed in BoM, on page 73: "The earrings you mention are crafted from old Inquisitor spikes, and have barely any potency to them. One might have been good enough for Lord Waxillium's little stunt six months ago, but they would hardly be enough to restore a kandra." A spike like Wax's earring is not sufficient as a Blessing.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 8:16 AM, Duxredux said:

As a final note, at the end of BoM, Harmony says that Paalm would have remained "a slave in her mind" had Wax not killed her.

That's not too unusual a way to describe someone whose life is largely defined by mental issues, and it's immediately followed up by Harmony indicating that the state would persist even were the spike removed (and therefore any possible control precluded): "Would you have had her live on, a slave in her mind? Corrupted by that cursed spike that would forever leave her scarred, even if replaced?" (BoM, page 394).

[Why Kaladin?]

On 6/25/2022 at 6:16 AM, Duxredux said:

Which brings me to my idea that Paalm was being controlled all along to do things that had she been sane might have agreed in a specific context, so even as a slave perhaps she never considered or even had the control to kill herself as she did at the end of SoS. I suspect she died there because Trell didn't want to reveal their hand more than had already been done. As a final note, at the end of BoM, Harmony says that Paalm would have remained "a slave in her mind" had Wax not killed her.

Thoughts?

I don't think this is correct since she kept taking spikes out I agree with the analysis that Trell doesn't have enough connection to Scadrial to actually influence anyone without a spike made of Trellium so I think Trell did enough damage with that 1 spike to twist or otherwise drive Paalm mad

[Duxredux]

9 hours ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

I don't think this is correct since she kept taking spikes out I agree with the analysis that Trell doesn't have enough connection to Scadrial to actually influence anyone without a spike made of Trellium so I think Trell did enough damage with that 1 spike to twist or otherwise drive Paalm mad

Fair point, though I will note that directly after removing a spike Paalm doesn't have any control whatsoever then either, as she would revert back to a Mistwraith. Each time she removed a spike she would have had to position everything so that she would naturally reacquire a spike immediately after removing the one that gave her sapience.

[Why Kaladin?]

Yes but it couldn't be a spike made of Trellium each time I don't think it's possible she could have gotten that much Trellium. And she couldn't reuse a spike so it must have been a non Trellium metal.

7 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Fair point, though I will note that directly after removing a spike Paalm doesn't have any control whatsoever then either, as she would revert back to a Mistwraith. Each time she removed a spike she would have had to position everything so that she would naturally reacquire a spike immediately after removing the one that gave her sapience.

 

[Duxredux]

21 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

Yes but it couldn't be a spike made of Trellium each time I don't think it's possible she could have gotten that much Trellium. And she couldn't reuse a spike so it must have been a non Trellium metal.

 

Quote

Argent

So how many spikes did Paalm have before the end? Asked in Chicago, you said to follow-up after tour.

Peter Ahlstrom

Paalm was only using one spike at a time, all of them made from the unknown metal.

General Twitter 2015 (Jan. 1, 2015)

Pretty sure this means she had multiple Trellium spikes.