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Shallan Stormblessed

All About Leshwi [Discuss]

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Leshwi intrigues me.

She seems pretty awesome, for a Fused. And she was friends with an honorspren. She's old enough to remember when Honor was the singer's god, and the Coppermind says she was died then reborn as a Fused. Which implies she wasn't always a Fused.

Quote

"I... I swore the First Ideal of the Radiants," Venli said. "I'm sorry."

"Sorry..." Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. "Sorry? Venli, they've come back to us! They've forgiven us."

What?

"Please," Leshwi said to Longing, "ask your spren. Do they know of an honorspren named Riah? She was my friend once. Precious to me."

Leshwi... had friends? Among the spren?

Storms. Leshwi had lived before the war, when men and singers had been allies. Honor had been the god of the Dawnsingers.

-Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War

Also, Venli said "storms", which seems out of character...

Anyway!

So could Leshwi have been a Windrunner once?

She can also hear the old rhythms, which I don't think Fused should be able to do. Am I reading too much into this? What's going on here?

Anything else about Leshwi could be discussed as well. 

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Very interesting, it's actually been so long since I read RoW and I've almost forgotten that scene. Also, the shanay-im, aka the windrunner Fused, the order of which Leshwi is a member of, seem the most honorable, because they duel, and don't ever cheat in fights. So, perhaps the shanay-im are just closer to Honor out of all of the Fused? Fused in general are very different, probably because they are millenia old, and are constantly reborn and never get therapy from all that damage to their soul or whatever. (although would anyone want Odium for a therapist anyways?)

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11 minutes ago, Odiumiumium said:

(although would anyone want Odium for a therapist anyways?)

Odium as a therapist has one solution for everyone: a smash zone visit.

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I wonder if the Heavenly Ones are so honorable mainly because Leshwi is the leader... although I'm not entirely sure she is the leader, on second thought.

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Posted (edited)

I also like Leshwi. As far as Leshwi being a former Windrunner, I'm pretty sure that the Nahel Bond was more freeform in the time before the destruction of Ashyn, as it was that that caused Honor to temper the power of the Surges. I think that it's likely that Leshwi had a proto-Radiant bond with the Honorspren Riah. Leshwi mentions that Riah was "precious" to her. Extrapolating on this, the betrayal of the spren could be the spren abandoning their bonds to bond humans. This would also explain the similarities between the orders of Fused and Radiants, as well as the cultures of the Fused, because after all, the Fused used to be Radiant.

Edited by NerdyAarakocra
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34 minutes ago, Odiumiumium said:

Very interesting, it's actually been so long since I read RoW and I've almost forgotten that scene. Also, the shanay-im, aka the windrunner Fused, the order of which Leshwi is a member of, seem the most honorable, because they duel, and don't ever cheat in fights. So, perhaps the shanay-im are just closer to Honor out of all of the Fused? Fused in general are very different, probably because they are millenia old, and are constantly reborn and never get therapy from all that damage to their soul or whatever. (although would anyone want Odium for a therapist anyways?)

 

23 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Odium as a therapist has one solution for everyone: a smash zone visit.

New roleplay: Odium Psychology Clinic.

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1 hour ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

 

New roleplay: Odium Psychology Clinic.

I don't think Odium is a licensed therapist, but I suppose when you're 1/16th of the thing that literally created the Cosmere, who needs a piece of paper with special words written by a special person?

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2 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

So could Leshwi have been a Windrunner once?

No, Radiants didn't become a thing until the desolations ahd already started.

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8 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, Radiants didn't become a thing until the desolations ahd already started.

This^ definitely not a traditional Windrunner but their songs do mention the wind and stones and their gods betraying them. 
so maybe honor spren used to bond in order to do lashes? Just like how the stones mention old things made into new things, so where did lashes come from? 

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55 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

This^ definitely not a traditional Windrunner but their songs do mention the wind and stones and their gods betraying them. 
so maybe honor spren used to bond in order to do lashes? Just like how the stones mention old things made into new things, so where did lashes come from? 

It could also be as simple as the spren spent more time on Roshar in those days, when the Shards were more active in things. Radiants weren't around until after the Fused were created, but Bonds and some proto Surges were kickign about.  Between that and the Shardpools there could have been a decent amount of contact with Shadesmar and/or a means to bring sapient spren to the Physical realm without loosing their minds.  

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Posted (edited)

Spren might have bonded people before the official Radiant orders were founded. In one of Dalinar’s visions in WOK, young Nohadon wishes that all Spren would be as choosy as Honorspren (thanks for the fix, Frustration)

Edited by Zea mays
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1 hour ago, Zea mays said:

Spren might have bonded people before the official Radiant orders were founded. In one of Dalinar’s visions in WOK, young Nohadon wishes that all Spren would be as choosy as windspren.

*Honorspren

They did bond before the offical orders were founded, but they didn't bond at all before the Desolations started.

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Posted (edited)

Leshwi wasn't a Radiant, historically there weren't singer Radiants. But that doesn't necessarily rule out some form of bond, though less deep ("though broth are we, their meat is men" from the WoR epigraphs).

I don't know if such a bond would give Surgebinding in some form - the Dawnsingers had something of that sort, but it might have involved working with lots of "ambient" non-sapient spren in the environment (apparently they 'talked to the stones' to do Stoneshaping) rather than a bond with a single individual true spren.

EDIT: the Radiants began with spren imitating the Honorblades. So I think that any such ancient bond wouldn't have given Blade (or Plate) for sure... that seems to be a key element of Radiants.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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4 hours ago, Zea mays said:

young Nohadon wishes that all Spren would be as choosy as windspren.

do you (or anyone else) happen to have this quote on hand? That gives me an idea, that's unrelated to this post so I don't want to derail, but the quote would be helpful

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Again, I think that pre-desolation spren bonds did exist. Note Leshwi having some relationship with the Honorspren Riah, and the Dawnsingers being able to shape stone.

The Nahel Bond, on the other hand, wouldn't have existed, as Honor didn't bind the surges as tightly before the destruction of Ashyn. The oaths would have been a bit more freeform. The Spren betrayed the Singers for the humans, but it isn't a betrayal unless both sides already have a bond. In addition, the orders of the Fused mirror the orders of the Radiants.

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I think there's a WoB that Nahel bond is a more general term for a bond between spren and Physical Realm creature; its the Radiant version specifically that is post Heralds.

That nitpick aside, I agree, the main question being imo whether Dawnsingers could gain powers from a lasting bond to one specific sapient spren or whether it was more general/temporary interaction with multiple likely non sapient spren. In addition to the Stoneshaping thing, there's that whole thing with growing plants using Light and rhythm and gemstones - maybe proto fabrial tech? Or is it a form of Progression?

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

do you (or anyone else) happen to have this quote on hand? That gives me an idea, that's unrelated to this post so I don't want to derail, but the quote would be helpful

TWoK Ch. 60

Quote
Spoiler

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

“I agree,” Dalinar said.

 

 

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think there's a WoB that Nahel bond is a more general term for a bond between spren and Physical Realm creature; its the Radiant version specifically that is post Heralds.

That nitpick aside, I agree, the main question being imo whether Dawnsingers could gain powers from a lasting bond to one specific sapient spren or whether it was more general/temporary interaction with multiple likely non sapient spren. In addition to the Stoneshaping thing, there's that whole thing with growing plants using Light and rhythm and gemstones - maybe proto fabrial tech? Or is it a form of Progression?

Here's the WoB:

Quote
Spoiler

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

 

My guess is that what Venli saw Dawnsingers accomplish (in the stone of Urithiru) were forms granted by Sapient Spren before the arrival of humans, but because that bond did not fully pull the Sapient Spren in the Physical Realm (just the gemheart, like other Form Bonds), the Spren did not retain/regain as much memory and understanding as they do through the Radiant Bond with humans.

I think the surges granted by the Dawnsinger bond are the same (or very similar) as how we see the Fused use surges now (meaning that was the original version of the Surge on Roshar, and the Radiant Bond with Humans "evolved" the surge based on human perception). But since Singers can fully see Spren (as shown in the Eshonai Flashback where she describes the Gloryspren including the wings, body and tail), they had a mode cordial relationship with the Spren in Shadesmar (which accounts with Leshwi having Honorspren friends before she was Fused) especially if bonded with one of their number.

Edited by Treamayne
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On 6/21/2022 at 8:24 PM, Shallan Stormblessed said:

So could Leshwi have been a Windrunner once?

from my understanding, the Nahel bond was an escalation of arms relatively late into the Desolations, which was itself a response to singers gaining similar powers, which was a response to the heralds and their powers, which was a response to the fused being able to be reborn (since that's the point of the oathpact), which itself must've happened within about 40 years or so after the destruction of Ashyn (since some of the Heralds lived there, and also don't look like they're in their 80s [working under the assumption that their immortality freezes aging, but doesn't de-age or anything like that])

So no, the timeline doesn't work out for Leshwi to have become a windrunner, since we know that the Nahel bond was formed to copy the Heralds' powers and the Heralds gained their powers only after the Fused were created.

I mean she could've formed while she was a fused, from Venli we know that it is possible but she would've then had to kill the spren, otherwise we'd probably see her in shardplate and with a blade in the story. Some points against it: The fused can't let (other) spren into their gemhearts, if their souls completely kick out a singers', I don't see how there'd be any space for a spren. That might not be necessary for the bond. Whether Honor would've allowed it, or could've forbidden it -- he had no hand in created the bond, the spren did it of their own volition, is also debatable. They are also cognitive shadows, and cognitive shadows have trouble with those sorts of things iirc.

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16 hours ago, DiePie said:

The fused can't let (other) spren into their gemhearts

Actually, we don't know what, if anything, is in a Fused's gemheart. Fused don;t reside in a Listener's/Singer's gemheart - that was the crux of the lie that Ulim told Venli (that the Fused coming were "just" spren that would give them a new form). The fused Souls displace the Singer soul in the entire body, but we don't know if there is a Voidspren in the Fused Gemheart granting thier "form". 

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53 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, we don't know what, if anything, is in a Fused's gemheart. Fused don;t reside in a Listener's/Singer's gemheart - that was the crux of the lie that Ulim told Venli (that the Fused coming were "just" spren that would give them a new form). The fused Souls displace the Singer soul in the entire body, but we don't know if there is a Voidspren in the Fused Gemheart granting thier "form". 

Leshwi said that her soul had been Odium's for so long she couldn't bond a spren.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Leshwi said that her soul had been Odium's for so long she couldn't bond a spren.

Right, but I took that to be a Radiant style bond, not necessarily a Form bond in the gemheart (looking for actual quote, since wording may matter)

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Posted (edited)

On 6/21/2022 at 8:31 PM, Odiumiumium said:

Very interesting, it's actually been so long since I read RoW and I've almost forgotten that scene. Also, the shanay-im, aka the windrunner Fused, the order of which Leshwi is a member of, seem the most honorable, because they duel, and don't ever cheat in fights. So, perhaps the shanay-im are just closer to Honor out of all of the Fused? Fused in general are very different, probably because they are millenia old, and are constantly reborn and never get therapy from all that damage to their soul or whatever. (although would anyone want Odium for a therapist anyways?)

Well, the ones that fly with Leshwi, anyway. As we saw in RoW, there were still Heavenly Ones who attacked the unconscious Radiants and their all-but-unarmed human shields; plus the ones that ambushed Graves and Moash fleeing the warcamps at the beginning of Oathbringer. Sure it turned out that they had Shards hidden in the cart behind them, but I doubt they had known that (they exclaimed in surprise/delight in examining the cart); looked like they simply attacked a small party of people fleeing "with stuff" to loot their stuff.

On 6/22/2022 at 3:05 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

young Nohadon wishes that all Spren would be as choosy as windspren.

do you (or anyone else) happen to have this quote on hand? That gives me an idea, that's unrelated to this post so I don't want to derail, but the quote would be helpful

Ch. 60 of The Way of Kings, the vision of Nohadon that Dalinar has (where he was Nohadon's advisor) where he said words aloud in the Dawnchant while in his trance that Navani was able to transliterate, and then to match up with what he remembered saying: "To be human is to want that which we cannot have."

Before that, Nohadon looked out over a war-torn Kholinar, saying:

Quote

"Our own natures destroy us," the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. "Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. ...

"I don't know if we can force them to do anything. ... Their power ... well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them..."

"...The Desolations are well named. I've heard initial counts. Eleven years of war, and nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead. Do we even have kingdoms to lead any longer? Sur is gone, I'm sure of it. Tarma, Eiliz, they won't likely survive. Too many of their people have fallen."

Dalinar had never heard of those places.

The man made a fist, pounding it softly against the railing. Burning stations had been set up in the distance; they had begun cremating the corpses. "The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn't brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find?"

So Alakavish was a Surgebinder who had formed his bond between Desolations and initiated some kind of war between human kingdoms; one who pre-dated Ishar or another Bondsmith imposing "precepts" (oaths and Ideals) on those who would form Nahel bonds?

Edited by robardin
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7 hours ago, robardin said:

Well, the ones that fly with Leshwi, anyway. As we saw in RoW, there were still Heavenly Ones who attacked the unconscious Radiants and their all-but-unarmed human shields; plus the ones that ambushed Graves and Moash fleeing the warcamps at the beginning of Oathbringer. Sure it turned out that they had Shards hidden in the cart behind them, but I doubt they had known that (they exclaimed in surprise/delight in examining the cart); looked like they simply attacked a small party of people fleeing "with stuff" to loot their stuff.

The ones that attacked Moash and Graves were Leshwi and the shanay-im who fly with her. This is how she and Moash meet when he killed her. I think the shanay-im all paired up with Graves and the other Diagram members and saw that as a fair duel. None of them interfere with Moash's fight with Leshwi and let him live after he kills her.

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12 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

The ones that attacked Moash and Graves were Leshwi and the shanay-im who fly with her. This is how she and Moash meet when he killed her. I think the shanay-im all paired up with Graves and the other Diagram members and saw that as a fair duel. None of them interfere with Moash's fight with Leshwi and let him live after he kills her.

Oh of course, how did I forget that!

So I would not say Fused on Shardless mortal is in any way a fair fight, any more than ordinary soldiers had any chance against Szeth the Assassin in White (Shards or no). Especially when all but Moash were killed from behind and above.

But there is some kind of battlefield honor in them, at least as much as the listeners (before the Everstorm) exhibited, that Kaladin noted while rescuing Dalinar's forces: they didn't attack the wounded or already down, and as you say, they respect giving a completely outclassed opponent (on paper) the honor of a one-on-one fight.

Later on in Oathbringer, Leshwi breaks off her duel above Hearthstone with Kaladin to let him stop the Pursuer from brutalizing "civilians", though - perhaps Graves and Moash were leaving the warcamps disguised as (ordinary) soldiers, at least?

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Random theory:

Could she have been a singer Radiant on the side of the humans long ago, then switched sides for some reason? (or maybe she wasn't a Radiant but was on the human's side.)

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