"Sealing" A Koloss's Soul

[Trusk'our]

We know that if you burn a Hemalurgic spike that you splice the sDNA inside to your own. I had always imagined that as swallowing the spike as is done traditionally with Allomancy, but what if you instead were to have the spike already piercing your body before you burned it? Could a Koloss made from a Lurcher, for instance, burn their spikes (assuming that their donors blanked their Identity when the spikes were charged) to sort of "seal in" the enhancements and alterations made to them, freeing them from the danger of someone controlling them via Allomancy or Shardic power?

[Treamayne]

Koloss spikes come from regular humans. Using other spikes would not create a Koloss, it would either fail or create something else.

From the Words of Founding:

Spoiler

The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power.

Koloss are Humans with 4 spikes that each stole human strength from non-metalborn regular people. Change the spikes and you will change what they create when added to a host.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Koloss spikes come from regular humans. Using other spikes would not create a Koloss, it would either fail or create something else.

If I understand correctly, they're talking about normal koloss spikes, just implanted into a Lurcher (ie, someone who would have the ability to burn iron) rather than a normal human. the spikes are the same. The point is basically just a Koloss being able to burn their own spikes.

[Band of Mourning]

Spoiler

You could also probably use a koloss made from a normal human, an entirely average koloss, and just give them a medallion granting iron allomancy.

 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

If I understand correctly, they're talking about normal koloss spikes, just implanted into a Lurcher (ie, someone who would have the ability to burn iron) rather than a normal human. the spikes are the same. The point is basically just a Koloss being able to burn their own spikes.
 

I don't think putting Koloss spikes in a Lurcher would create a Koloss either. You aren't starting with a normal human spiritweb - so you likely won't create a Koloss spiritweb.

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[Band of Mourning]

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You could also probably use a koloss made from a normal human, an entirely average koloss, and just give them a medallion granting iron allomancy.

Spoiler

I don't know that Era1 Koloss would understand how to use a medallion. Era 2 Koloss may be different, but we don't know exactly how Harmony changed them.

 

[Trusk'our]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:59 AM, Treamayne said:

I don't think putting Koloss spikes in a Lurcher would create a Koloss either. You aren't starting with a normal human spiritweb - so you likely won't create a Koloss spiritweb.

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I don't know that Era1 Koloss would understand how to use a medallion. Era 2 Koloss may be different, but we don't know exactly how Harmony changed them.

 

It's been confirmed by Brandon Sanderson that a Koloss made from an Allomancer would retain their powers, but may not remember how to use them.

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17th Shard

If an Allomancer is turned into a koloss, would they keep their powers?

Brandon Sanderson

That's actually something I've thought about. An Allomancer turned into a koloss would keep their powers because, as you'll recall, an Allomancer turned in to an Inquisitor retains their powers. Whether they would be able to always know how to use them remains to be seen, but you could definitely have a koloss Allomancer if you built them right.

 

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It's been confirmed by Brandon Sanderson that a Koloss made from an Allomancer would retain their powers, but may not remember how to use them.

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you could definitely have a koloss Allomancer if you built them right.

Good to know - but note his final clause. It seems like you couldn't spike them in the normal way either. 

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Good to know - but note his final clause. It seems like you couldn't spike them in the normal way either. 

I thought he meant if you made a Koloss from an Allomancer and then taught them to use their Allomancy then they could use it. Plus, the Coppermind Wiki says that there are Koloss Allomancers in era 2, and I'm not sure that the Koloss have done much experimenting with Hemalurgy other than to add to their numbers.

[Treamayne]

RIght, but that's due to changes made by Harmony during the Catacendre. now that Koloss are a breeding species, they have a chance to inherit Allomancy or Feruchemy in the sDNA, like anybody else. 

I think of Hemalurgy like a recipe. If you change 1 ingredient (Allomancer instead of Human before spiking) the final result will not turn out the same. Sometimes you can ge other ingredients to get a similar result (type of spike(s), placement of spike(s)) and sometimes the change will not lead to useable results (like TLR's millium of failures). If the WoB said that there is a way to use Koloss spikes on a Misting and still end up with a Koloss that may (or may not) have access to their original Allomancy; then his comment "build them right" seems to imply (to me at least) that either something about the type of spike or its placement would need to change to get that result. 

And while we know WoB has said that a Hemalurgic spike might be burnable with allomancy to incorporate the changes, wo have no indication of how or if that would affect the power of Ruin from controlling the person doing so. One one hand, the spike's absence may indicate less control; on the other hand permanently adhereing those changes to your spiritweb may make the control easier and more complete. 

Without more information, it seems it could go either direction. 

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Without more information, it seems it could go either direction. 

Yeah, there's enough that isn't known yet about the mechanics of advanced Hemalurgy that really it could go either way Brandon wanted it. I'm just that kind of person who can't stand not really knowing how something works, so I try to piece it together in the most logical way possible until I see proof that counters my way of thinking.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I try to piece it together in the most logical way possible until I see proof that counters my way of thinking.

Unfortunately, logic doesn't really touch on much of Hemalurgy. Also, it seems to have been changed by Harmony during the Catacendre (though we don't know how much); and I'm sure Sazed's feelings and attitudes colored some of that (if it did occur).

[Duxredux]

Let's look at known examples. In SoS, Wax mentioned that he was given the option to join the ranks of the Koloss and he turned them down (no, I'm not talking about Allomancer Jak, this is Wax. Jak's story is indicative as well, though I consider Wax to be a more reliable narrator). A few options from that, Koloss managed to figure out the changes that were necessary to transform an Allomancer into a full Koloss which as noted is highly unlikely, the spike placement is exactly the same for a normal person and an Allomancer, or they could have spiked Wax and had it go screwy. I'm guessing it's the second option, that the spike placement is exactly the same between a Metalborn and a non-Metalborn. The WoB might not be about the spike placement, it could be figuring out how to have the new Koloss retain their knowledge of how to use Allomancy. It's more of a stretch, but Brandon may have been referring to giving a Koloss Allomancy with an additional spike, in terms of "if you built them right" and not that the spike placement changes based on if you know your target is a normal Scadrian or a Metalborn. 

Another case is from Secret History, though I may be reading too much into this.

Spoiler

Kelsier runs into the Koloss army as it is getting pummeled by Yomen's catapults. This is where Kelsier learns that Koloss were originally people, with the former koloss transitioning rapidly into The Beyond. Kelsier spots an Obligator who persisted slightly longer than the others who tells him that the Koloss should have known better than to take him, as he was their keeper. There's definitely room for interpretation on this, but here's my take:

• The former Koloss were fading quickly because of the damage to their souls from the spikes.
• The Obligator persisted slightly longer possibly because he was an Allomancer.
• We know TLR knew about joint Soothing and Rioting of Koloss, so I don't think it's a stretch that he let some Obligators beyond the Inquisitors know this secret for times that the Inquisitors were unavailable. 
• I'm guessing this guy was a Rioter, because we already know that TLR had his Soothing stations setup throughout Luthadel. Where was he using the other Mistings in the Steel Ministry? Minding Koloss makes sense for the Rioters, even if it's just standing by in teams as safeguards.

At any rate, let's assume for the sake of discussion that you could make a Koloss from a Lurcher by pounding one spike in at a time and letting them burn each spike before adding another. At some point in the process they may forget how to burn Iron, but you'd end up with less spikes. The Koloss no longer has 4 spikes driving a wedge into their soul, but I suspect that there would still be some sort of warping or scarring that weakens the soul to outside influence. You don't need a spike to hear a Cognitive Shadow, you just need to have a cracked or damaged soul. This effect may be less than the original spikes, but I'd guess it would still be there.

[cometaryorbit]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Unfortunately, logic doesn't really touch on much of Hemalurgy. Also, it seems to have been changed by Harmony during the Catacendre (though we don't know how much); and I'm sure Sazed's feelings and attitudes colored some of that (if it did occur).

Is there evidence of that? He changed Snapping, but that's strictly Allomancy. I think Hemalurgy is just mostly unknown - kandra blessings, koloss iron spikes, and Marsh's Inquisitor spikes created pre Catacendre still continue to work, and the Set in BoM can use it to grant powers. I think the only difference we've seen is that now its Harmony rather than Ruin that can talk to or control spiked people.

[.....]

On 6/21/2022 at 3:13 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think the only difference we've seen is that now its Harmony rather than Ruin that can talk to or control spiked people.

no compounding with hemalurgy now, 4 spike limit too

[alder24]

6 hours ago, ..... said:

no compounding with hemalurgy now, 4 spike limit too

Please do not revive an old thread just to give a short comment. It's against 17th Shard policies.

This thread was made more than a year ago, before TLM release and therefore participants lacked knowledge about limits of spikes and compounding in Hemalurgy.