How To Perform Hemalurgic Transformation With Only One Spike

[Trusk'our]

Your Identity acts as a barrier that separates your Spiritweb from the outside influences, and it's been stated by Brandon Sanderson that if you were to remove your Identity that you would be more susceptible to outside influence. 

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sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

So, if you could perhaps non-lethally spike out a person's Identity, and then give them a Duralumin spike containing a Hemalurgic charge taken from a person or creature you want your patient to physically resemble, maybe you could use this as a method of changing someone's body to appear different or have different abilities, but only need one spike to accomplish this as their Identity would not interfere with any physical transformation that would occur.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Even if their identity has changed, that doesn't necessarily mean their body will follow suit. I think, in order to instigate a physical change, you'd also need to give them a spike granting gold feruchemy and get them to tap it (or heal them in some other way)

Edited June 19, 2022 by Stormtide_Leviathan

[Milk]

23 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Even if their identity has changed, that doesn't necessarily mean their body will follow suit. I think, in order to instigate a physical change, you'd also need to give them a spike granting gold feruchemy and get them to tap it (or heal them in some other way)

Forgery changes one's Spiritual self; a Spiritual change will have some level of descending consequences to the Cognitive and Physical, I think.

[danex]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:56 PM, Trusk'our said:

So, if you could perhaps non-lethally spike out a person's Identity,

have we ever seen anyone be spiked non-lethally? i think everyone who has ever had an attribute stolen has also died.

could be a coincidence but it almost makes me think that something supernatural is happening here. maybe something about ripping off a piece of the spiritweb causes such trama to the soul that it’s impossible to survive? 

[Trusk'our]

10 hours ago, dannnnnnex said:

have we ever seen anyone be spiked non-lethally? i think everyone who has ever had an attribute stolen has also died.

could be a coincidence but it almost makes me think that something supernatural is happening here. maybe something about ripping off a piece of the spiritweb causes such trama to the soul that it’s impossible to survive? 

A person who has had a piece of Spiritweb removed from them does not have to die, as is confirmed via WoB. 

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwards though.

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The_Vikachu

I remember reading you answer earlier that a person being used to charge a hemalurgic spike does not necessarily have to die. Would that victim be similar to a Drab from Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, making a spike rips off a piece of someone's soul. So...yeah. I'd need to see my exact quote from before, but let's say it's not going to leave a person in good shape.

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Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

So it's not impossible to survive being spiked, but you'd be in pretty poor condition if you weren't healed through some use of Investiture, such as Feruchemical gold or the Surge of Regrowth.

[Trusk'our]

On 6/19/2022 at 2:08 AM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Even if their identity has changed, that doesn't necessarily mean their body will follow suit. I think, in order to instigate a physical change, you'd also need to give them a spike granting gold feruchemy and get them to tap it (or heal them in some other way)

Hemalurgy always has a physical transformation involved (with the exception of Kandra and probably other shape shifters). All spikes move your organs around so that you don't die by having them implanted into you. Spikes that hold human attributes rather than powers cause bigger changes, such as with iron spikes granting extra human strength and the creation of Koloss. Since Duralumin takes a person's Identity and Connection, I always envisioned the big physical change that it would cause would be to make you look like the person you charged the spike with, although that is just a guess, so you may be right that you'd need to do more work than I suggested than to transform someone.

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy always has a physical transformation involved (with the exception of Kandra and probably other shape shifters). All spikes move your organs around so that you don't die by having them implanted into you. Spikes that hold human attributes rather than powers cause bigger changes, such as with iron spikes granting extra human strength and the creation of Koloss. Since Duralumin takes a person's Identity and Connection, I always envisioned the big physical change that it would cause would be to make you look like the person you charged the spike with, although that is just a guess, so you may be right that you'd need to do more work than I suggested than to transform someone.

Maybe? I mean, Koloss are made from spikes but don't look extra human or how I would expect them to look based on the extra strength they inherit. A physical transformation to resemble a person whose Identity and Connection are stolen seems a bit straightforward and dramatic to me (you're still mostly yourself, after all). But some shifts in that direction seem plausible, especially if they're less dramatic, like imitating certain mannerisms or bearing, or more modest changes of features. I'm less convinced that something like a full-on Lightweaving-style imitation is what we'd see, though.

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/20/2022 at 0:07 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy always has a physical transformation involved (with the exception of Kandra and probably other shape shifters). All spikes move your organs around so that you don't die by having them implanted into you.

What about spikes in non-vital areas such as the ear? I agree hemalurgy fixes things to prevent death from the spike itself, but I don't think there is necessarily a physical change if the spiking wouldn't be dangerous on a mundane level.

[+robardin]

On 6/20/2022 at 0:54 PM, Trusk'our said:

A person who has had a piece of Spiritweb removed from them does not have to die, as is confirmed via WoB. 

So it's not impossible to survive being spiked, but you'd be in pretty poor condition if you weren't healed through some use of Investiture, such as Feruchemical gold or the Surge of Regrowth.

In the only examples of it we'd seen in Mistborn Era 1, hemalurgic spikes are typically created by piercing the victim/donor through the heart with a piece of the appropriate metal.

Magical/spiritual effects aside, that is generally pretty fatal, unless surgical techniques rather than brutal/manual ones were in play in later Eras; after all, TLR, Inquisitors, koloss, and Ruin (all the known "spike creators") had no inclination even to try to have the donor survive. Quite the opposite.

Edited June 22, 2022 by robardin

[Trusk'our]

On 6/21/2022 at 5:08 PM, cometaryorbit said:

What about spikes in non-vital areas such as the ear? I agree hemalurgy fixes things to prevent death from the spike itself, but I don't think there is necessarily a physical change if the spiking wouldn't be dangerous on a mundane level.

Huh. I hadn't considered that, but yeah, neither Vin nor Wax have weird Hemalurgic warping's happen to them, even if both of their Hemalurgic earrings most likely contained Allomantic powers rather than more seriously transforming human attributes.

So, maybe the Investiture of a Hemalurgic spike containing an Invested power doesn't always shift your anatomy around, maybe it only does it if the spike is driven deeply into the body, and the ear is too shallow?

[Duxredux]

Going back to the original post, what exactly are you attempting to do here, @Trusk'our? There's already an existing 1 spike Hemalurgic transformation with the Chimeras, though it doesn't seem as if Bleeder was attempting to mold them towards another person. I'm not sure why using only 1 spike is that important.

I'm not sure if you necessarily need to spike out their Identity to make the change, just have them dampen it with an Identity medallion (unless we are trying to do this without the victim's consent). At any rate I'm trying to understand where you're going with this and what new you're trying to bring to the conversation. 

At any rate, with Identity manipulation, healing, and Hemalurgy, making drastic physical changes is quite possible. Apparently growing wings isn't out of the question.

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Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

[Trusk'our]

1 minute ago, Duxredux said:

Going back to the original post, what exactly are you attempting to do here, @Trusk'our? There's already an existing 1 spike Hemalurgic transformation with the Chimeras, though it doesn't seem as if Bleeder was attempting to mold them towards another person. I'm not sure why using only 1 spike is that important.

I'm not sure if you necessarily need to spike out their Identity to make the change, just have them dampen it with an Identity medallion (unless we are trying to do this without the victim's consent). At any rate I'm trying to understand where you're going with this and what new you're trying to bring to the conversation. 

At any rate, with Identity manipulation, healing, and Hemalurgy, making drastic physical changes is quite possible. Apparently growing wings isn't out of the question.

 

My original intent of the post was to piece together how the Chimera were formed using only one spike, but then I thought about what else might be possible using it, and people gaining the ability to change their appearance or bodily functions seemed like it was pretty viable, especially since just using standard Hemalurgy by mixing up your spiritual DNA seems to turn you into something drastically removed from your human self, rather than giving you a minor change or improvement such as with Divine Breaths or Singer Forms.

So I guess it kind of turned into a "how to use Hemalurgy to make minor alterations and improvements to yourself without turning into an inhuman Hemalurgic construct" which is something I've wanted to know about for a long time. But yeah, I guess I didn't really explain it that well in the original post, did I?

[Returned]

15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

So I guess it kind of turned into a "how to use Hemalurgy to make minor alterations and improvements to yourself without turning into an inhuman Hemalurgic construct" which is something I've wanted to know about for a long time. But yeah, I guess I didn't really explain it that well in the original post, did I?

Well, the Set and its lackeys are pretty human despite in many cases having several spikes per person, so number of spikes alone doesn't seem like that much of a limitation in that dimension. It seems like the extreme effects you're trying to avoid are more a function of specific attributes in specific spikes placed in specific spots on the recipient's body, and so if you know what you're doing (which you'd have to to be able to influence these things) you can seek or avoid the changes you want.

So I guess the most direct answer is "know a lot about Hemalurgy", and some of the key things to know are about spike placement (which we don't really know the rules of at all).

[Duxredux]

Ah... that makes more sense. I know you're the Hemalurgy enthusiast, but my gut thinks that there are much cleaner ways to get this kind of change. I think what you are suggesting with physical change is technically possible with a few extra steps, maybe some healing thrown in there, but I think you would need an inhuman level of accuracy to get just the right amount of the Spiritweb that you are trying to morph into. I'm guessing physical alterations are hard to get right, especially since it's a messy process if you get it wrong (for example, I could see an error having you grow an additional set of features rather than overwriting the original).

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:48 PM, Returned said:

Well, the Set and its lackeys are pretty human despite in many cases having several spikes per person, so number of spikes alone doesn't seem like that much of a limitation in that dimension. It seems like the extreme effects you're trying to avoid are more a function of specific attributes in specific spikes placed in specific spots on the recipient's body

I believe the "human attribute"/Kandra Blessing spikes are more warp-y than Allomantic or Feruchemical power spikes.

I do wonder what the threshold is from "human with power-granting spikes" to "Inquisitor" is? Maybe where you need a linchpin spike to survive? The Set could only go up to 3 spikes each due to Harmony interference so probably never tested that limit.

[Trusk'our]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I believe the "human attribute"/Kandra Blessing spikes are more warp-y than Allomantic or Feruchemical power spikes.

Yeah, power spikes mostly only cause enough change to move organs out of the way to prevent death, but enough do seem to cause some other changes, such as the added height, gravely voice, and blood thirst of Inquisitors. 

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20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I do wonder what the threshold is from "human with power-granting spikes" to "Inquisitor" is? Maybe where you need a linchpin spike to survive? The Set could only go up to 3 spikes each due to Harmony interference so probably never tested that limit.

 

I would guess that to be the case. I would also bet that the linchpin spike is the final straw before the bigger physical changes of Inquisitor-likeness shows up, but that's just a hunch.

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

but enough do seem to cause some other changes, such as the added height, gravely voice, and blood thirst of Inquisitors.

Yeah that's what got me wondering about the line between "human with power granting spikes" and "Inquisitor".

Koloss are even weirder - blue skin that doesn't grow with the body, indeterminate growth, and ability to gain nutrition from random junk don't obviously relate to "human strength".

So do 1, 2, or 3 iron spikes grant only strength and at 4 all the koloss changes appear,  or would someone with fewer spikes have lesser versions of those changes?

[Trusk'our]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

So do 1, 2, or 3 iron spikes grant only strength and at 4 all the koloss changes appear,  or would someone with fewer spikes have lesser versions of those changes?

I would guess that if someone were to try and create a Koloss and put the first three spikes in place but either forgot, lost, or for some reason chose not to use the fourth and final spike, then the construct wouldn't be a Koloss just with less power and alteration, it would be something else entirely. You wouldn't just lose a portion of power without that spike as with an Inquisitor, you would also lose the spiritual DNA that would be part of the complete "code" that the Investiture follows to create a Koloss.

Although, Chimera are supposed to have an unusually large amount of change done to them with one spike, so that suggests that other Hemalurgic constructs with few spikes wouldn't have nearly the same level of change.

So if you gave a human only one attribute spike without whatever method is used to create Chimera, I wonder what you would get?

[Some Random Spren]

Remember that the warping depends on the attributes AND the bind points, not just the attributes

although generally more spikes will result in warping

[Karger]

Seems like a kind of messy method.  Given the number of safer shape change methods available I wouldn't recommend this one even if it works.  Hemalurgy is like a surgical transplantation.  It is going to leave scaring and there is a risk of compromising the body's integrity.  Even just using metalic arts you might be better off if you can figure out how to tap someone else's identity along with healing or store particular components of your own identity so that you can heal the remaining characteristics more strongly.