Rg2045

Jedi VS Radiants

Radiants vs Jedi    24 members have voted

  1. 1. Who wins more times then not?

    • Jedi
      4
    • Radiants
      15
    • Idk(show me the results)
      5

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38 posts in this topic

Mistborn vs jedi

Fun idea, 4 pages of constant arguing much fun.

now let’s bring it over here 

1) each order of radiant 1v1 a Jedi (use averages not kaladin, or anakin) 

2) each order 1v1 a sith 

3) a person swallows Yelig-nar and must fight a Jedi with no practice 

4) a person is practiced with yelig-nar but the Jedi is aware of the abilities (to make it fair) 

5) the best of the best from both sides face off who wins 

6) radiants vs droid army who wins, why? 
 

bonus round! Regular shardbearer vs padawan 

ground rules:

1a) lightsabers and shardblades bounce off each other, as per a WoB that I’m sure @Frustration can provide. 
1b) sense shardblades and plate are made of nearly the same stuff, plate will react as being hit with a blade when struct with a lightsaber.

2) no fighting in one universe or the other, 3rd party world for our entrainment. (This doesn’t include how the force might work within the cosmer discussions) 


3) give reason why/why not one side would win. 
ex: limited stormlight, higher durability, better healing 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

1a) lightsabers and shardblades bounce off each other, as per a WoB that I’m sure @Frustration can provide. 

As you wish

Spoiler

Questioner

IF they were to fight with a lightsaber and a Shardblade, which would be able to cut through the other?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on who’s world you're in, that's what I would say. Is Lucas writing it or am I?

Questioner

Well say you are writing it, since we're--

Brandon Sanderson

If I'm writing it I say they bounce off of each other.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

12 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

1) each order of radiant 1v1 a Jedi (use averages not kaladin, or anakin) 

For the whole discussion I'm only going to go by what the Jedi do in the movies.

Simply put here jedi can't win, Radiants can take hits where Jedi can't, and they can activly heal from all such attacks, before we even factor surges into account. Shardplate is heavy enough that using the force on it would take too much effort and distract the jedi from the fight long enough for the Radiant to kill them.

12 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

2) each order 1v1 a sith 

I don't see a big difference between sith and jedi for this comparison, Shardplate blocks lightning, and none of the other abilities realy come into play.

14 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

3) a person swallows Yelig-nar and must fight a Jedi with no practice 

Now here we have an intresting one, assuming that the jedi know that breaking the center crystal will kill the host, and assuming that they are strong enough in the force to do some while maintaining distance between them they should win. Otherwise I say a toss up with a slight edge to Yelig-nar.

16 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

5) the best of the best from both sides face off who wins 

That includes Nale, so he wins.

18 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

6) radiants vs droid army who wins, why? 

Radiant, given that Shardplate absorbes lightning I'm going to say that blaster bolts will have a minimal impact on them, and the radiant can cut them down as they will. If we assume that plate treats blasters like bullets then they still win because droids have the inteligence of week old bread.

20 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

bonus round! Regular shardbearer vs padawan 

Without shardplate's ability to heal, stormlight and surges the shardbearer is much more manageable for the padawan than a radiant, however they still can't be hit but have to hit their opponent multiple times, so I'd say Shardbearer, but much closer than any of the other ones.

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Posted (edited)

Please, for Ado's sake, stop the insanity.

Edited by Treamayne
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@Frustration

what do you think of Jedis ability of precognition? Do you think this just makes the Jedi harder to fight but still easily winnable, or like trying the grab a greased pig? 
also I think the radiants best ability is to inspire fear to disrupt the jedi

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47 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

@Frustration

what do you think of Jedis ability of precognition? Do you think this just makes the Jedi harder to fight but still easily winnable, or like trying the grab a greased pig?

It would make them harder to fight, but in my mind precognition is just poor man's skill.

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I think radiants would win all of these easily. Stormlight healing is just to good. However, Could a jedi push away a radiants sphere pouch?. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

I think radiants would win all of these easily. Stormlight healing is just to good. However, Could a jedi push away a radiants sphere pouch?. 
 

 

It would be inside their shardplate.

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we dont know what ideal the radiant is on. I mean once they have shardplate they win everytime, but before..

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Just now, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

we dont know what ideal the radiant is on. I mean once they have shardplate they win everytime, but before..

That would be like pitting them against younglings.

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most ideal radiants dont have shardplate

 

I mean i generally agree with you but somebody has to play devils advocate

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Just now, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

most ideal radiants dont have shardplate

 

I mean i generally agree with you but somebody has to play devils advocate

While yes third and lower oaths don't have shardplate a lot of them get that far.

In the Feverstone keep vision 200 individuals had plate, and that was just from the Windrunners and Stonewards.

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okay fair, so we have established that a jedi could not beat a fourth or fith ideal radiant.

Do you think a jedi could bet a 3rd ideal

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1 minute ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

okay fair, so we have established that a jedi could not beat a fourth or fith ideal radiant.

Do you think a jedi could bet a 3rd ideal

No, surgebinding is so broken, especially with Honor gone, I have no doubt that the Radiant wins.

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, surgebinding is so broken, especially with Honor gone, I have no doubt that the Radiant wins.

I know stone surgebinding is op but illumination? 
how about elsescallers? 
regrowth is powerful In a group and as an individual but a bit limiting here.

I love all the ideas

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6 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

I know stone surgebinding is op but illumination?

Can make lasers, concusive soundwaves, high energy radiation, etc.

7 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

how about elsescallers?

Soulcast the jedi

7 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

regrowth is powerful In a group and as an individual but a bit limiting here.

Use growth along with vine seeds to bind the Jedi down.

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Just now, Frustration said:

Can make lasers, concusive soundwaves, high energy radiation, etc.

Soulcast the jedi

Use growth along with vine seeds to bind the Jedi down.

Only counter is that the Jedi will be more resistant to soulcasting 

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3 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Only counter is that the Jedi will be more resistant to soulcasting 

How? Their souls lack investiture.

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A good Jedi could have a chance against a Second Ideal Radiant. Third Ideal, harder. Fourth Ideal, with Plate and Blade, almost impossible.

Noone can convince me that any Jedi ever could take on the weakest Fifth Ideal Radiant. Just a completely different power level. Any argument for Jedi there has to be based off of inconsistencies, e.g. weird things that Jedi can do in some iterations that they obviously can't do in anything else.

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40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How? Their souls lack investiture.

Could they be immune due to not have an essence in the spiritual realm

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It isn't a good comparison.  The force is a soft magic system.  Stormlight is a hard magic system.  Given enough time the jedi would develop methods capable of countering the radiants.  The better their understanding of radiants, spen, ideals and investiture the better able to counter them they would become.  Sure you can't force choke a knight radiant in armor very easily.  Even if you could stormlight would keep them alive.  The thing is the force's strength is more subtle then that.  Its a source of knowledge rather then power.  Sure radiant x might be able to cut through jedi but a good jedi would contemplate the radiant understand them and, if necessary, find the inevitable weak spot.

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2 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Could they be immune due to not have an essence in the spiritual realm

They would develop one just by being observed.

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So we have established in a fair fight, radiants always win. How many jedi to take down a 4th ideal radiant, how about 3rd ideal

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My two cents:

10 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

1) each order of radiant 1v1 a Jedi (use averages not kaladin, or anakin) 

2) each order 1v1 a sith

Ad 1) and 2):
The way it is setup, lightsaber bouncing of a Shardblade, and hence also Shardplate to some extent, I would say 4th ideal and up the Radiant wins (provided they have sufficient Stormlight of course). Jedi or Sith has some chance, since I would assume that repeated strikes would break a section of plate, but Radiant has to hit only once. Best tactics on part of Jedi/Sith would be using Statis or Telekinesis to immobilize Radiant, and Speed for blitzing. 9/10 for Radiant.

Below third Oath Jedi wins pretty much all the time, the only real advantage the Radiant has would be healing, however Jedi has telekinesis, minor precognition and basically a limited Shardblade. Elsecallers could soulcast the Jedi, but at only second Oath I think that would be quite a feat. 9.5/10 for Jedi

On Third Oath it would depend on the order, with Lightweavers and Elsecallers having the best chance (soulcasting for offense, transportation/illusions for defense), followed by Windrunners and Skybreakers (flight for defense and mobility, lashing/division for offense). The rest of orders is difficult to order, but Truthwatchers would go lower on the list, as their powers seem mostly defensive. I think assuming they are equally skilled, Jedi has slight edge here against even the better orders purely thanks to their precognition, but soulcasting is hard to counter, so in total I would say something like 6.5/10 for Jedi .

Bondsmiths are a bit of a wildcard, as their chance of victory would strongly depend on how Connection shenanigans interact with the Force, so I make no judgement there.

10 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

3) a person swallows Yelig-nar and must fight a Jedi with no practice

Ad 3)

If the person swallowing Yelig-Nar has little to no experience with Surges, Jedi/Sith should win most of the time, they can attack from distance (throwing objects via Force, or guiding lightsaber at them) and finish them off, precognition allowing them to dodge attacks. Depending on how far Jedi/Sith can strike from Yelig-Nar has a chance though, as they would have to stand on the solid ground, so they could be ~immobilized. 8/10 for Jedi

10 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

5) the best of the best from both sides face off who wins

Ehm, Jedi/Sith wins little to no contest. I mean Vader can literally grab and hold transport that weights in range of hundreds of tons, and then rips it open like it is made of paper using only the Force, not even Herald in Shardplate could stand up to that. They will get grabbed and immobilized, and torn apart pretty fast.


 

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55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ehm, Jedi/Sith wins little to no contest. I mean Vader can literally grab and hold transport that weights in range of hundreds of tons, and then rips it open like it is made of paper using only the Force, not even Herald in Shardplate could stand up to that. They will get grabbed and immobilized, and torn apart pretty fast.

But he can do that some times and not do that other times. In the end, he gets defeated by an angry youth. By the standard of that scene, Word of Radiance Kaladin would wipe the floor with him! We have to keep this in mind: The Cosmere power levels are strictly consistent (Brandon takes care of that), Star Wars power levels are not.

Which is what I hinted at above. Charcters can do something in one scene because it looks cool, but can't do it anymore in another scene because it would defeat the point of the scene (Vader just hiding somewhere and choking people - technically he doesn't even need his lightsaber for anything if he can just choke them). That's because in Star Wars, the effect of a specific scene (like Vader seeming badass) is more important than internal consistency. Which is fine by me, I'm not even saying that's bad writing or anything, it works just fine for the movies in my opinion. It just makes claims like these hard to argue for on a consistent basis.

It gets worse with changing writers between mediums, giving Vader overpowered abilities in some side story comic while he never shows them when he needs them in the movies. It's a general flaw in this comparison. We can't just take anything that a Jedi/Sith has been shown to do somewhere and apply it, because in a lot of cases, these abilities contradict what's been shown elsewhere in the series.

... Also, yesterday at the livestream, Brandon has said that Shardplate protects from mind control. Which makes it easy to argue that all that force stuff will probably not even work against Fourth Ideal upwards Radiants anyway. I'm still convinced that in a comparison between Brandon's established canon and the things that work consistently in Star Wars, no Jedi or Sith could stand a chance against any Fifth Ideal Radiant in a fair situation.

I'm not saying that that makes Jedi dumb or useless or anything like that, just that Star Wars functions on a different (not worse) power scale than Stormlight. It's not a story with "could be destroying the planet with our powers so let's just abandon them" type of situations. Which is fine, it doesn't need to do that, it's just that Stormlight does and in these comparisons, it makes it hard for Star Wars character to keep up.

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31 minutes ago, Elegy said:

But he can do that some times and not do that other times. In the end, he gets defeated by an angry youth. By the standard of that scene, Word of Radiance Kaladin would wipe the floor with him! We have to keep this in mind: The Cosmere power levels are strictly consistent (Brandon takes care of that), Star Wars power levels are not.

Eh, you strip quite a lot of context from that scene. He gets defeated by an angry youth (who is his son, whom he does not want to kill at all, remember Anakin is unhealthily fixated on his family), only after that youth who is his equal in potential taps Dark side and catches him off-guard. Vader never wanted to kill Luke, at most he wanted to turn him.
He would have no reason to hold back, or indeed have any sentimental feelings towards anyone from Roshar.

33 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Which is what I hinted at above. Charcters can do something in one scene because it looks cool, but can't do it anymore in another scene because it would defeat the point of the scene (Vader just hiding somewhere and choking people - technically he doesn't even need his lightsaber for anything if he can just choke them). That's because in Star Wars, the effect of a specific scene (like Vader seeming badass) is more important than internal consistency. Which is fine by me, I'm not even saying that's bad writing or anything, it works just fine for the movies in my opinion. It just makes claims like these hard to argue for on a consistent basis.

It gets worse with changing writers between mediums, giving Vader overpowered abilities in some side story comic while he never shows them when he needs them in the movies. It's a general flaw in this comparison. We can't just take anything that a Jedi/Sith has been shown to do somewhere and apply it, because in a lot of cases, these abilities contradict what's been shown elsewhere in the series.

Oh, I agree on the inconsistency of the power-levels, I was just answering given the premise of the thread and used demonstrated feats to do so.
I would say that appealing to lower consistency of the Star Wars is simply dodging the question, not really answering the thread. I agree that it is a thing, however that does not simply allow you to invalidate stronger canonical feats just because.

And typically the abilities don't contradict what has been shown elsewhere, at most they simply raise the question of why the seemingly useful ability was not used.

35 minutes ago, Elegy said:

... Also, yesterday at the livestream, Brandon has said that Shardplate protects from mind control. Which makes it easy to argue that all that force stuff will probably not even work against Fourth Ideal upwards Radiants anyway. I'm still convinced that in a comparison between Brandon's established canon and the things that work consistently in Star Wars, no Jedi or Sith could stand a chance against any Fifth Ideal Radiant in a fair situation.

Shardplate protects from mind-control based on the fact it is heavily invested, in the same way aluminum helmet would protect (and actually be better at it) against mind-control.
How that interacts with Force is a guess.

Most Jedi/Sith against 5th Ideal Radiant I would agree, but Vader and other top-level Force users are something else.
Which does not change the fact that Vader could simply pickup stuff around using Force and smash it into a Shardplace hard enough to crack it open, based on his strength.

37 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I'm not saying that that makes Jedi dumb or useless or anything like that, just that Star Wars functions on a different (not worse) power scale than Stormlight. It's not a story with "could be destroying the planet with our powers so let's just abandon them" type of situations. Which is fine, it doesn't need to do that, it's just that Stormlight does and in these comparisons, it makes it hard for Star Wars character to keep up.

Well, so far we have not actually seen what lead Surgebinding to destroy planets. If it requires usage of Dawnshards, it is outside of scope of this thread. If not, then yes all Jedi and Sith are outclassed, but we do not know yet.
In wider scope of canon (i.e. legends) there are Sith that eat all living things on a planet, so that is something to consider as well.

 

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