Is the Shaod a mechanical device?

[EmeraldPaladin]

On the coppermind article for fabrials, under the trivia section, it mentions that 

Quote

The term "fabrial" will, eventually, come to be used for all magic-based mechanical devices in the cosmere, such as the mechanism that picks Elantrians.

Was there a mechanical means by which the Shaod operates? Or am I interpreting the quote poorly?

Relevant Link: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Fabrial

[NameIess]

The Shaod's function seems to be linked to the city of Elantris. When it got messed up, so did the Shaod. When it got fixed, so was the Shaod.

[cometaryorbit]

I wondered about that same sentence... I am not sure if the Shaod itself was changed though. It seems more like the Shaod kept working but now linked people to a broken city of Elantris so they became zombie Elantrians not normal Elantrians.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

2 hours ago, EmeraldPaladin said:

On the coppermind article for fabrials, under the trivia section, it mentions that 

Was there a mechanical means by which the Shaod operates? Or am I interpreting the quote poorly?

Relevant Link: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Fabrial

Until he reveals concretely otherwise, I've always assumed the Shaod to be a magical algorithm of sorts. It looks at some set of inputs "levels of Connection to Devotion + Connection to the Geopolitical area of Arelon"

So in a way it'd be a "magical construction" as the original quote talked about, but I've never thought of it as a physical device or anything

This is reinforced to me how he describes his conception of Sel'ish magics as programming languages:

Quote

Questioner

The Emperor's Soul was intentionally on Sel or was it just picked up as...

Brandon Sanderson

No, it was intentional, because the magic system... the way I build the magic systems in the Cosmere is very deliberate and certain planets have certain themes for their magic. And Sel's magic systems are all basically computer programming languages and when I was designing that magic system, it had to be on Sel, it couldn't work on any of the other planets for various reason.

Questioner

And another question, is the Shaod random or is there a purpose beyond it?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not completely random. *laughter from audience*

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

[+ShardlessVessel]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Shaod's function seems to be linked to the city of Elantris. When it got messed up, so did the Shaod. When it got fixed, so was the Shaod.

I can't find the WOB right now, but I believe Brandon has stated that Elantrians existed before the city was built.

My understanding is that the zombification is a separate effect from the Shaod. Once the Shaod takes you, the city's Aon tries to amplify your powers, breaking the transformation in the process because the Aon is broken.

[Treamayne]

On 6/15/2022 at 3:23 PM, EmeraldPaladin said:

On the coppermind article for fabrials, under the trivia section, it mentions that 

Was there a mechanical means by which the Shaod operates? Or am I interpreting the quote poorly?

Relevant Link: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Fabrial

I think this is a misinterpretation of the original WoB:

Spoiler

FirstSelector

So, do you have a name, like an in-world name for a large magical construction, like the things that picks Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

That was why I invented the term "fabrial." It will become widespread eventually, as the term for meaning, kind of, magic-type devices in the cosmere. That's not what you call it right now, but you can start calling them all fabrials.

FirstSelector

But what about something that isn't, like-- I always imagined that Aona left, like, a device, a magical device running--

Brandon Sanderson

I will have to RAFO that.

The question is biased and assumes a mechanical means, that BS at first doesn't address, then RAFOs. (see below)

20 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I can't find the WOB right now, but I believe Brandon has stated that Elantrians existed before the city was built.

My understanding is that the zombification is a separate effect from the Shaod. Once the Shaod takes you, the city's Aon tries to amplify your powers, breaking the transformation in the process because the Aon is broken.

City Age:

Spoiler

Locke219

How long ago (before Elantris 1) was Elantris built?

Brandon Sanderson

Hundreds of years if not over a thousand years.

Building Elantris

Spoiler

Questioner

Was the wall around Elantris soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, good question! It was not soulcast. Excellent question.

Questioner 2

*Inaudible* find out later, maybe?

Brandon Sanderson

Their own magic was involved in the creation of Elantris. The local magic was involved.

So this shows that AonDor was used to build the city; which means the people that would become the modern Aonic peoples had to experience the Shaod to gain the magic.

Timing

Spoiler

Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

Spoiler

chalkonthewall

In Elantris did Elantris ever not exist? like before it was built did the Shaod choose people? and if it did was their power the same? I'm mostly asking that if they were to build another Elantris in Teod would Elantrians be just as powerful over there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a point where Elantrians didn't exist. Excellent question. The rest is a RAFO.

 

On 6/15/2022 at 3:54 PM, Nameless said:

The Shaod's function seems to be linked to the city of Elantris. When it got messed up, so did the Shaod. When it got fixed, so was the Shaod.

We know that the Shaod is linked to the city, but correlation =/= causation.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson - Weak Aons

Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris.

If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to Elantris and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

So, if AonDor existed first, then the Shaod had to exist first. But if the city may have been built before the Splintering of Devotion, then I think it's likely that the Shaod was used by Aona to select people that exemplified Devotion (and therefore had a connection to her**). I think that after the city was linked to the post Shaod state to provide the amplified power; so when the land changed (and therefore the magic changed) the amplification from the city became a reduction instead because the Connection was broken. However, I don't think the city actually had anything to do with continuing the Shaod selection that started with Aona. I do think it was possible that after the splintering the city was modified to ensure a continued Connection to the Dor that suddenly shifted to the Cognitive Realm.

**Note: Examples we see in Elantris:

• Spoiler

  • A Dula Farmer so devoted he built his own house by hand
  • A prince so devoted he defied his father and won the hearts of the people
  • A sculptor so devoted he was known as the best in his craft on Opelon
  • A jeweler and craftsman so devoted to art that he turned making shoes into an artform
  • A guardsman's wife so devoted she risked her life to say goodbye to her child, and built an entire gang just to protect the children

   

Edited June 16, 2022 by Treamayne
Formatting/SPAG

[+ShardlessVessel]

46 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

So, if AonDor existed first, then the Shaod had to exist first.

I disagree. I am inclined to agree with you (I think the Shaod came first and is not caused by the city) but I can see scenarios in which the Shaod comes second.

For example, AonDor may originally have been something that everyone in the Arelon region could learn, it just took a lot of dedication and wasn't as strong. Then they built Elantris to create the Shaod, making the power stronger but limited to fewer people.

[cometaryorbit]

24 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

For example, AonDor may originally have been something that everyone in the Arelon region could learn, it just took a lot of dedication and wasn't as strong. Then they built Elantris to create the Shaod, making the power stronger but limited to fewer people.

That was what I figured.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I disagree. I am inclined to agree with you (I think the Shaod came first and is not caused by the city) but I can see scenarios in which the Shaod comes second.

For example, AonDor may originally have been something that everyone in the Arelon region could learn, it just took a lot of dedication and wasn't as strong. Then they built Elantris to create the Shaod, making the power stronger but limited to fewer people.

I guess I can see that. It would make this WoB make more sense:

Spoiler

Questioner

Why can't they just increase their numbers. Because their numbers increase over time?

Brandon Sanderson

...The number of Elantrians had certain thresholds and upper limits, that I haven't described in the books yet.

Also, when you consider the other magics of Sel (ChayShen, Forgery, Dakhor, Resealing, Bloodsealing, etc.), they all seem open to anybody willing to put in the time and effort to learn. So, if AonDor used to be like that but they built Elantris to concentrate that power into fewer people, then it would explain why AonDor is the only one we have seen so far that requires an external method to gain access to the magic.

Of course, the follow-on questions then become: Did Aona help them do this, or was it done after the Splintering once the Dor was in the Cognitive realm? If the latter, could some of the other magics do something similar to increase potency by decreasing access?

Edited June 16, 2022 by Treamayne

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:39 PM, Treamayne said:

Of course, the follow-on questions then become: Did Aona help them do this, or was it done after the Splintering once the Dor was in the Cognitive realm? If the latter, could some of the other magics do something similar to increase potency by decreasing access?

And has something like this already been done for Dakhor? Shai talks like Forgery is pretty much just a skill/art, if a complex and demanding one (and it seems like the Empire's "Rememberers" are a fairly generic thing, not treated mystically/religiously like Elantrians or Dakhor monks). Maybe all the Selish magics were like that once?