Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
DougTheRug

Complete m WAG about kandra spikes

23 posts in this topic

I was thinking about kandra spikes and how we don’t know how they are made. I have a pretty disturbing idea about how they are made but first want to assemble the facts we know about them:

1. They come in pairs. 
2. They are small.

3. There are a few basic options for the Blessings: Presence, Potency, and two others.

4. Only the Lord Ruler knew how to make them and the kandra have an “inkling”.

What we don’t know:

1. Why have the kandra pursued how to kill themselves and not how make more of them?

2. What attributes did the Blessing take from the humans?

3. Why are they small?

4. Why do they come in pairs?

5. Why is every other hemalurgy creation is fixed in shape but kandra are inherently fluid?

 

I have a theory that solves all of this:

Kandra blessings come from killing infants who would have become allomancers. 

My main pieces of evidence are:

It’s foreshadowed by the fact that they’re smaller than the others. 

Infants don’t have a set identity and can theoretically become anyone. Kandra can literally become anyone. The attribute that kandra spikes take is their fluid destiny/identity.

They come in pairs because infants don’t have enough of a spirit web to make a full “adult” being. So, the Lord Ruler used two.

Kandra would be disturbed by killing any human to make more kandra. If they could use adults, they could maybe ethically get around this by killing murderers, serial rapists or something. They do not (to me) seem capable of killing infants due to their species wide identification with Preservation.

It would explain what the Set were doing with the women they captured. They were literally making their own Faceless Immortals.

Different powers cause different Blessings. We know there 16 main allomancy powers split into 4 quadrants. The physical powers become the Blessing of Potency and similar. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kandra being able to shapeshift is already explained. TLR turned all the feruchemists into mistwraiths, creatures which have the ability to shapeshift.

As for the size, hemalurgic spikes can be pretty much any size, so long as they're large enough to hold their charge. They don't have to be large in order to be effective, and TLR likely didn't want his spies to have massive spikes sticking out of them that would easily give them away or be difficult to cover up.

Kandra haven't tried to figure out how to make more blessings because most of them are very against killing. MeLaan is the only sane Kandra that we've seen who is okay with killing humans, and I assume Harmony would frown on them beginning to experiment with hemalurgy.

Hemalurgic spikes don't capture the entire spiritweb, they rip chunks off of it. Kolloss take five spikes, not because they need five spiritwebs worth of power, but because it takes five human's strength to twist them into what they are. Kandra require two spikes in order to allow normal access to their cognitive and spiritual aspect.

The Set already have Faceless Immortals, and they seem to operate on very different principles from the Kandra.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Hemalurgic spikes don't capture the entire spiritweb, they rip chunks off of it. Kolloss take five spikes, not because they need five spiritwebs worth of power, but because it takes five human's strength to twist them into what they are. Kandra require two spikes in order to allow normal access to their cognitive and spiritual aspect.

It's four spikes for Koloss.

8 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Infants don’t have a set identity and can theoretically become anyone. Kandra can literally become anyone. The attribute that kandra spikes take is their fluid destiny/identity.

We already know what blessings steal

Potency(Iron spikes) - Physical strength

Pressence(Copper spikes) - Mental fortitude

Awareness(tin spikes) - Physical senses

Stability(Zinc spikes) - Emotional fortitude.

Identity and Fortune were not used to create blessings.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Set already have Faceless Immortals, and they seem to operate on very different principles from the Kandra.

We don't actually know this at all. After all, Edwarn reflects to himself that the form of a person "with a ragged beard and wild hair" that came to visit him while imprisoned was probably one of the Set's Faceless Immortals via "a beggar stolen off the street". So they do need a human's bones to assume a human form, just like kandra do.

And the "trellium" spike recovered from Paalm functioned in same (if corrupted) way that (one of) her original Blessings did, in terms of preserving her identity and memories, so however the mechanism works, it's more like a "co-opting" of hemalurgy's mechanics than a duplicating of effect.

So the question is, are the Set's FIs more "rogue kandra" like Paalm was, or (more likely) mistwraiths brought to sentience via trellium spikes? The latter would never have been known to Harmony or the others at all. And it's implied by MeLaan that mistwraiths still exist somewhere, as she refutes to the idea that former Inquisitor spikes as used by Wax for an earring (and that successfully re-double-spiked Bleeder) would work as a Blessing, as "if that worked, we'd have already used all those spikes to make new children."

There are mistwraiths out there to make into kandra with Blessings, if only they had them. So maybe for the Set, they do (of trellium).

Edited by robardin
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, robardin said:

We don't actually know this at all. After all, Edwarn reflects to himself that the form of a person "with a ragged beard and wild hair" that came to visit him while imprisoned was probably one of the Set's Faceless Immortals via "a beggar stolen off the street". So they do need a human's bones to assume a human form, just like kandra do.

I took that to mean possession, actually. Makes more sense given the language used. is it 'stealing' to kill a guy and take his bones? Probably, but possessing someone makes much more sense. Especially given the red eyes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I took that to mean possession, actually. Makes more sense given the language used. is it 'stealing' to kill a guy and take his bones? Probably, but possessing someone makes much more sense. Especially given the red eyes.

No, I would say what makes sense "given the language used" in Edwarn's inner dialogue (born and raised in Elendel), thinking to himself that "the Set had Faceless Immortals of their own" that Wax and his fools had no idea existed, is just that: they have the full equivalent of Faceless Immortals on their side, but ones that communicate with and report to Trell instead of Harmony (hence why it clearly outranks him by far, being able to speak of timelines, accepting service, and oh yes, removing life on Scadrial).

If it was just a matter of "these servants of Trell can also appear as different people", well, that's only a fraction of what it means to be a Faceless Immortal, and he would probably have had a different term for it in his head.

On a side note, we've also never seen any kind of "possession magic" in the Cosmere at all, in terms of an inteilligent entity occupying a human host (living or dead); having this be the first introduction of that mechanism under "Faceless Immortal" in the closing passages of a Mistborn book doesn't feel right, when we already know from Shadows of Self Trell can do a kind of hemalurgy by proxy that is invisible to Harmony.

Edited by robardin
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, robardin said:

No, I would say what makes sense "given the language used" in Edwarn's inner dialogue (born and raised in Elendel), thinking to himself that "the Set had Faceless Immortals of their own" that Wax and his fools had no idea existed, is just that: they have the full equivalent of Faceless Immortals on their side, but ones that communicate with and report to Trell instead of Harmony (hence why it clearly outranks him by far, being able to speak of timelines, accepting service, and oh yes, removing life on Scadrial).

If it was just a matter of "these servants of Trell can also appear as different people", well, that's only a fraction of what it means to be a Faceless Immortal, and he would probably have had a different term for it in his head.

On a side note, we've also never seen any kind of "possession magic" in the Cosmere at all, in terms of an inteilligent entity occupying a human host (living or dead); having this be the first introduction of that mechanism under "Faceless Immortal" in the closing passages of a Mistborn book doesn't feel right, when we already know from Shadows of Self Trell can do a kind of hemalurgy by proxy that is invisible to Harmony.

If they were just normal Kandra that serve Trell, why would Edwarn not think of them as such? Why the red eyes? Red indicates corrupted investiture:

Spoiler

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

(Stormlight spoilers)

Spoiler

We've only ever seen red eyes in the Fused and Regals, two groups with souls heavily altered by outside influence.

So either the Trellium spikes cause kandra to have red eyes, which as we've seen with Bleeder, isn't the case, these Kandra's souls have been even more altered for some reason, or they're possessing people.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If they were just normal Kandra that serve Trell, why would Edwarn not think of them as such? Why the red eyes? Red indicates corrupted investiture:

  Reveal hidden contents

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

(Stormlight spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

We've only ever seen red eyes in the Fused and Regals, two groups with souls heavily altered by outside influence.

So either the Trellium spikes cause kandra to have red eyes, which as we've seen with Bleeder, isn't the case, these Kandra's souls have been even more altered for some reason, or they're possessing people.

I agree with those three likely scenarios, except I think it's #2. These have been "even more altered" than Paalm because she started out a kandra of Harmony (with normal Blessings), but instead were created as "trellium-based kandra" from the get-go (mistwraiths "born" with trellium).

The red indicates "corrupted Investiture", which we also saw on the trellium spike that was harvested from Paalm's body - "corrupted" as in "Trell (presumed by most to be Autonomy, but who knows for sure just yet) has co-opted/redirected the magic of another Shard"

And reject #3 as "really, this is the first time we see possession magic in the Cosmere, is this way?"

Edited by robardin
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, robardin said:

I agree with those three likely scenarios, except I think it's #2. These have been "even more altered" than Paalm because she started out a kandra of Harmony (with normal Blessings), but instead were created as "trellium-based kandra" from the get-go (mistwraiths "born" with trellium).

The red indicates "corrupted Investiture", which we also saw on the trellium spike that was harvested from Paalm's body - "corrupted" as in "Trell (presumed by most to be Autonomy, but who knows for sure just yet) has co-opted/redirected the magic of another Shard"

And reject #3 as "really, this is the first time we see possession magic in the Cosmere, is this way?"

I don't see the hangup with possession.

Stormlight

Spoiler

I mean, the fused do it with Parshmen. What's so different about this?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't see the hangup with possession.

Stormlight

  Reveal hidden contents

I mean, the fused do it with Parshmen. What's so different about this?

 

Well, there is Intent in the latter case on the part of the donor host - I presumed you meant you thought the "beggar stolen from the streets" was killed to use as a host, which is what I was imagining, being as I'm imagining a kandra-style use for the corpse (to assume his form).

But you are right, there is a known Cosmere mechanism for a willing transfer of one's own body to a Cognitive Shadow... Even if under somewhat false pretenses (the donor host doesn't have to know they'll die, just be willing to accept the incoming soul).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, robardin said:

Well, there is Intent in the latter case on the part of the donor host - I presumed you meant you thought the "beggar stolen from the streets" was killed to use as a host, which is what I was imagining, being as I'm imagining a kandra-style use for the corpse (to assume his form).

 I wasn't thinking of killing someone and then possessing their corpse, I was saying that while a kandra technically 'steals' their host's bones, you wouldn't normally say that a Kandra 'steals' their host.

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

But you are right, there is a known Cosmere mechanism for a willing transfer of one's own body to a Cognitive Shadow... Even if under somewhat false pretenses (the donor host doesn't have to know they'll die, just be willing to accept the incoming soul).

That same mechanism could be at play here. The insane can hear cognitive shadows, and if you convince one of them to accept you, possession could be possible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 I wasn't thinking of killing someone and then possessing their corpse, I was saying that while a kandra technically 'steals' their host's bones, you wouldn't normally say that a Kandra 'steals' their host.

That same mechanism could be at play here. The insane can hear cognitive shadows, and if you convince one of them to accept you, possession could be possible.

In fact, perhaps the identity of the Shard behind "Trell" is not Autonomy after all, per your spoilered reference. I mean, we know that MB Era 2 takes place after SA5, right? Think about that...!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, robardin said:

In fact, perhaps the identity of the Shard behind "Trell" is not Autonomy after all, per your spoilered reference. I mean, we know that MB Era 2 takes place after SA5, right? Think about that...!

(Stormlight)
 

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking that Todium is Trell, or maybe Dalinar's Trell, after losing the contest and becoming Odium's champion.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see that being the case for spoiler reasons - Lost Metal comes out before Stormlight 5, so whatever Trell is revealed to be, it can't be too telling for the ending of Stormlight 5.

 

I agree everything seems to be pointing toward Autonomy, but if that's a red herring, I think the #2 possibility is Skaze -- we see a Sel/Dor connection in Secret History, and Sel mythology includes possession (Svrakiss).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I can't see that being the case for spoiler reasons - Lost Metal comes out before Stormlight 5, so whatever Trell is revealed to be, it can't be too telling for the ending of Stormlight 5.

I agree everything seems to be pointing toward Autonomy, but if that's a red herring, I think the #2 possibility is Skaze -- we see a Sel/Dor connection in Secret History, and Sel mythology includes possession (Svrakiss).

That’s a good point - however, TLM may not “spoil” anything in SA5, but instead, drop something that doesn’t make sense until SA5

Where you read a passage and just shout on the train, “What?! Brandon blew my mind AGAIN”

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Ok, sure, I mostly meant that Trell won't be revealed to be Odium or (Stormlight spoilers)

Spoiler

Dalinar as a Fused.

And since we're supposed to learn the identity of Trell in Lost Metal I think Trell has to be non-Rosharan.

 

Edited by cometaryorbit
fix spoiler
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless someone decided to steal Odium's color scheme Trell is Odium

Spoiler

zas678

Is it significant that Miles said that the "men of gold and red" would come and rule. Is there a connection between this and the "gold and red" cigar box that Miles keeps The Suit's comings and goings on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is all very significant.

corwin01

Are those men of red and gold of any relation to the priests in the red and gold robes in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

I really have to RAFO this one. (Sorry.)

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

 

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Regarding the Set's Faceless Immortals, I'm pretty sure it takes decades for a "newborn" kandra raised to sapience to gain any skill at consuming and mimicking a body. I'm not sure on the timetable that the Vanishers and Set have been operating after kidnapping those women, but I don't think it's enough time for a newborn kandra to be useful yet. Unless Trell is skilled enough to just take over a new Kandra and manage all of the detail work with the new puppets.

As for the other points from the original post, I can come up with an established explanation for all the points like the other comments have shown except I don't really know why Kandra blessings must come in pairs in order to grant the power. Vin's baby sister was killed with an earring and that got enough of a Hemalurgic charge to let Vin pierce Copperclouds and find the Well of Ascension, so I doubt it's the extent of the soul harvested or Hemalurgic charge of the spike. Have we found any explanations or WoBs for why kandra blessings must come in pairs?

 

I did have thoughts about the other discussion that's going on too:

Spoiler
8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Unless someone decided to steal Odium's color scheme Trell is Odium

  Reveal hidden contents

zas678

Is it significant that Miles said that the "men of gold and red" would come and rule. Is there a connection between this and the "gold and red" cigar box that Miles keeps The Suit's comings and goings on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is all very significant.

corwin01

Are those men of red and gold of any relation to the priests in the red and gold robes in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

I really have to RAFO this one. (Sorry.)

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

 

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

We do know that mimicry can be done, even on a Shard's level (at least displays for puny mortals). The best examples are Ruin mimicking the Allomantic signature of the mist spirit or copying the pulses that Preservation was giving off while fueling Kelsier when he was following Vin as a cognitive shadow. If Ruin can put off the same tone/rhythm as Preservation (which has other ramifications), a Shard can likely easily imitate a color scheme, especially if it's just a wardrobe choice. I'd be surprised if normal kandra couldn't just make their eyes glow red when they wanted to, considering the kind of kandra identity confirmations we see MeLaan do.

Spoiler

Syl didn't do too bad a job at imitating a Voidspren either.

If Trell isn't Odium and they are deliberately mimicking Odium's colors, then there's the follow up question of why they are trying to frame Odium. Maybe Trell also wants to Splinter someone but doesn't want to deal with the kind of resistance that Odium has gotten from the rest of the Shards? There's enough possible obfuscation that I could see Trell as Autonomy or Odium without much of a stretch.

As for a bit of other speculation from @Nameless

Spoiler

I can't really see the Set as something setup by Dalinar. There's way too much math and number references to be designed by Dalinar, and that's before he gets infused with Odium's essence, if that is indeed what is coming is SA5. I can't see Dalinar with Odium's hate sitting down to create an organization chart based on math of all things. That said, the Set did always remind me of the Diagram in terms of their secrecy, fanaticism, and method of operations, so I could see TOdium being behind the Set and the organization of it.

Edited by Duxredux
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I don't think "gold and red" color scheme is relevant to Trell's identity (or Trell at all).

I think the "men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal" are the Southern Scadrians - the "final metal" is ettmetal, Miles says "you will be ruled by them" because they're more advanced and probably more military minded (they at least have large bombs, and live in an environment with multiple nations which Elendel has never had).

The Southern airship crew in BoM were captured by the Set and don't seem to know of it prior, and the Set just treated them as victims rather than allies, so I don't think they have anything to do with the Set/Trell stuff.

Red is often corrupted Investiture so I don't think the red haze in Wax's edge of death vision in BOM is a hint at which Shard is involved.

Spoiler

I don't think Odium's influence being felt on Scadrial means much - I think all the Shards have some influence everywhere since the Spiritual Realm is without location. So "not a ton, but yes" I don't think necessarily is more influence than Odium would have on any other random planet like First of the Sun.

 

Edited by cometaryorbit
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think "gold and red" color scheme is relevant to Trell's identity (or Trell at all).

I think the "men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal" are the Southern Scadrians - the "final metal" is ettmetal, Miles says "you will be ruled by them" because they're more advanced and probably more military minded (they at least have large bombs, and live in an environment with multiple nations which Elendel has never had).

The Southern airship crew in BoM were captured by the Set and don't seem to know of it prior, and the Set just treated them as victims rather than allies, so I don't think they have anything to do with the Set/Trell stuff.

Red is often corrupted Investiture so I don't think the red haze in Wax's edge of death vision in BOM is a hint at which Shard is involved.

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't think Odium's influence being felt on Scadrial means much - I think all the Shards have some influence everywhere since the Spiritual Realm is without location. So "not a ton, but yes" I don't think necessarily is more influence than Odium would have on any other random planet like First of the Sun.

 

How would Miles have known about the South Scadrians? Or Harmonium for that matter?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would Miles have known about the South Scadrians? Or Harmonium for that matter?

 

Likely through the Set. There's the "visitors from other worlds" and "having the has Sazed a metal" bits in the broadsheets, so rumors of these things seem to be around; the Set might well know more than was public. And the Set-captured ship in BoM wasn't the first to reach the North, perhaps there was an encounter with an earlier one that gave the Set a clue.

Or, this might be some kind of "moment of death" Realmatic thing, where a Shard or Splinter can talk to or through him, like Preservation (who normally can't speak to humans) saying Survive to Kelsier in the Pits, and in Stormlight

Spoiler

the Death Rattles seem very similar

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Likely through the Set. There's the "visitors from other worlds" and "having the has Sazed a metal" bits in the broadsheets, so rumors of these things seem to be around; the Set might well know more than was public. And the Set-captured ship in BoM wasn't the first to reach the North, perhaps there was an encounter with an earlier one that gave the Set a clue.

Suit kept Miles at arms length, he wouldn't tell him more than neccesary.

While on the other hand Miles was rather devoted to Trellism, so he likely had interactions on that side.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Suit kept Miles at arms length, he wouldn't tell him more than neccesary.

While on the other hand Miles was rather devoted to Trellism, so he likely had interactions on that side.

Mostly I think "bearers of the final metal" means the "men of gold and red" have to be the Southerners rather than anything off-world.

I agree Miles didn't know everything Suit knew, but he might well have known more than is public (possibly not intentionally on Suit's part).

The broadsheets do show that there are rumors circulating about both mysterious visitors-from-elsewhere and harmonium. Given that, it might not have taken more than a stray comment overheard to figure out roughly what is going on from that.

Anyone from beyond would fairly naturally be assumed to be more advanced & expansionist -- thus likely conquerors-- given that they found Elendel rather than the reverse.

Miles wouldn't necessarily have known *much*, he might believe they were literally "visitors from other worlds".

I am undecided on how closely involved Miles was with the actual magical/Shardic side of the Trell stuff. Was he just a somewhat unstable guy who took the religion as justification to do things he already kind of wanted to do but formerly had suppressed, or was he more directly influenced? If his dying words aren't supernatural I don't know that there's any evidence of direct influence (vs through the Set).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.