Stormfather inconsistency [Spoilers SA5 prologue]

[+Evendale]

I am rereading Oathbringer, and I found this quote from the Stormfather in chapter 38, when he is talking to Dalinar and Navani about Taln:

Quote

 HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

Now, this contradicts the SA5 prologue, where the (supposed) Stormfather says that a Herald has died. It also contradicts a WoB where Brandon said explicitly that Taln did not break. So what's going on here? If we assume that the being Gavilar interacted with in the SA5 prologue is indeed the Stormfather, then he knew that another Herald had died. So why would he not say so to Dalinar? Was he lying to Dalinar? Is he purposefully trying to obscure the knowledge of the Herald dying? Or do you feel this supports the theory that the being Gavilar interacted with was not the Stormfather, and therefore the Stormfather doesn't know about the Herald dying?

[Frustration]

I think the Stormfather is staying as closed liped about everything as he can.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I think the Stormfather is staying as closed liped about everything as he can.

Either that or this Stormfather is a pretender. (Or it could just be a thing with this being Brandon's very first rough draft of the prologue.)

Edited June 13, 2022 by Nameless

[Torol Sadeas]

This seems like such a weird lie to make. I don't see how another Herald dying and causing the desolation instead of Taln would change much for Dalinar. 

[Rg2045]

Remember the stormfather is smarter then we originally suspected. We see them as a simple spren but In actually it’s able to lie and deceive.
 

(If we believe that it’s the stormfather with gavilar, then we know he lied to him. With Dalinar he didn’t even help until after the everstorm was made, and then tried to kill everyone)

also the stormfather with gavilar is much more helpful, watching doors (he refused to watch an honorblade for Dalinar) answering more questions and being forced to answer due to his oath to honor (flat out refuses to answer Dalinar at times). 
 

So I think that this small tidbit was the stormfather angry at the heralds (and humans in general) and cursing talh a traitor to his oaths even tho he hasn’t betrayed them. 

[Jerfier]

And in Oathbringer, Dalinar says to SF "can he keep one eye on Honorblade?" and SF says "he can only see the places where the storm passes, he can't see interiors" but Gavilar's SF watches out the door for him.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Jerfier said:

And in Oathbringer, Dalinar says to SF "can he keep one eye on Honorblade?" and SF says "he can only see the places where the storm passes, he can't see interiors" but Gavilar's SF watches out the door for him.

That's also near Gavilar, which he difinatly can see.

[Olmund]

The SA5 prologue implies that the Stormfather didn't like being treated like Gavilar's lackey, which explains why he would tell Dalinar that he can't see indoors (though there's also the proximity angle as Frustration pointed out).

It's fairly likely that the Stormfather explained the return of the desolations in a way that Dalinar and Navani would understand, glossing over the fact that a herald did die and return to Braize. He also seems to know more about reforming the oathpact than he lets on. We'll have to wait until SA5 to find out what the Stormfather's exact endgame is (or was, assuming that it's no longer possible or useful to reform the oathpact).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's also near Gavilar, which he difinatly can see.

Yeah, it seems he can see in an area around the person he's bonded to. For example, in Rhythm of War he has Dalinar walk back over to one of the bodies in Ishar's tent so that he can see it.

On 6/13/2022 at 2:46 PM, Torol Sadeas said:

This seems like such a weird lie to make. I don't see how another Herald dying and causing the desolation instead of Taln would change much for Dalinar. 

I don't know why he'd make that lie either, but there seems to be some reason he really does not want to tell Dalinar what's up with the Heralds, so I imagine it plays into whatever that is. See the fact that even though he knew Dalinar was looking for them, he only reluctantly gives a tidbit about Ishar after trying to wiggle out of the question and being pinned down by Dalinar, and only confirms Ishar's Tezim after Dalinar already works it out. And I can't imagine he doesn't know anything about Nale or the Skybreakers, but he never mentions them at all, nor does he mention Kalak's apparently repeated attempts to get the Radiants going again.

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:51 AM, Evendale said:

 Or do you feel this supports the theory that the being Gavilar interacted with was not the Stormfather, and therefore the Stormfather doesn't know about the Herald dying?

Even if that wasn't the Stormfather, that still doesn't explain the Taln finally broke/didn't break contradiction.

It's possible the Stormfather doesn't know exactly what happened on Braize and simply assumed Taln broke, because historically Desolations started because a Herald broke.

But maybe he did lie... which would lean toward Gavilar's SF being the real one.

The Stormfather is weird in general. At the end of WOR he's all 'everyone is doomed' but in OB he's like 'of course a contest of champions would work, it was Honor's idea!'. So why did he assume there was no hope in WOR?

 

[CosmicSieve]

I've only just read the SA5 prologue, so haven't had much time to think on it, but I was wondering if that was the cognitive shadow of Tanavast speaking to Gavilar. I think Tanavast does something between then and Dalinar to remove himself more from the Stormfather. There is a gap of years before Stormfather starts bringing visions to Dalinar, and the personality seems markedly different. I suspect Tanavast sent out windspren to find someone honorable (Kaladin), and set in motion the refounding of the Windrunners. I had been thinking it was Cultivation who did so until I read the prologue. I haven't yet digested all the rest of the information I just learned and where it fits in.

[Bort]

On 13/06/2022 at 10:48 PM, Rg2045 said:

also the stormfather with gavilar is much more helpful, watching doors (he refused to watch an honorblade for Dalinar) answering more questions and being forced to answer due to his oath to honor (flat out refuses to answer Dalinar at times).

More Stormfaker evidence?

We know that the Stormfather can't se einside buildings very well, so how could he watch the doors?

[Rg2045]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

More Stormfaker evidence?

We know that the Stormfather can't se einside buildings very well, so how could he watch the doors?

That’s a bit of a stretch to claim stormfaker because of that point. Especially when we consider that the stormfather 

1) is capable of lying

2) can see around their bondsmith as Frustration pointed out 

[Frustration]

The Stromfather was aware of Jezrien's death, so I don't find him saying that no new Herald had died to be an inconsistency, or evidence for a faker but a lie.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah it's only evidence if one starts with the assumption that the (genuine) Stormfather can't or wouldn't ever lie. Which seems at-first-glance likely, as a Splinter *and* Sliver of Honor, but imo the Intent of Honor is more bonds and oaths than truth as such, so he probably can lie.

Jezrien's death was a no reincarnation death though so may be a different case - it seems that the other Heralds sensed that but (from the Prologue) didn't necessarily know about return-to-Braize deaths.

[NameIess]

I think it’s worth noting that the SA5 prologue isn’t the only place where the Stormfather has been noted as acting oddly. The Honorspren brought up the Stormfather being “erratic” during Adolin’s trial. I originally dismissed this as the honorspren coming up with a justification for ignoring the Stormfather, but after the prologue, I’m not so sure.

[DiePie]

On 6/21/2022 at 9:31 PM, Frustration said:

The Stromfather was aware of Jezrien's death, so I don't find him saying that no new Herald had died to be an inconsistency, or evidence for a faker but a lie.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

You do have to admit, that Jezrien's death was an unusual circumstance. His death also severely impacted the Oathpact, which would have sent much larger ripples than the "normal", non-permanent, death that the Stormfather would've detected. I'm not saying that that means there's a discrepancy, but that there's room for the Stormfather to potentially be able to sense the Oathpact, but not be powerful enough (or watchful enough) to know simply when a herald dies.

[Zrogezrg]

Maybe I code too much, but what if the statement is not " ( none have ever died) and (returned to damnation)" but " none (have ever died and returned to damnation) "?

the statement () and () is true only if both () are true, but second one is true if just one is false.

Meaning that heralds may have died, but for some reason (shifting oathpact to just Taln) did not to return to damnation? or chose not to return

[Rg2045]

7 hours ago, Zrogezrg said:

Maybe I code too much, but what if the statement is not " ( none have ever died) and (returned to damnation)" but " none (have ever died and returned to damnation) "?

the statement () and () is true only if both () are true, but second one is true if just one is false.

Meaning that heralds may have died, but for some reason (shifting oathpact to just Taln) did not to return to damnation? or chose not to return

Shallans mother soul behind a painting? 
wel I’m of the mind that’s a seon behind the painting but other WoB have me convinced it wasn’t planned to be

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:52 PM, Rg2045 said:

Shallans mother soul behind a painting? 
wel I’m of the mind that’s a seon behind the painting but other WoB have me convinced it wasn’t planned to be

What painting?

[Frustration]

On 6/30/2022 at 0:22 PM, Rg2045 said:

Shallans mother soul behind a painting? 
wel I’m of the mind that’s a seon behind the painting but other WoB have me convinced it wasn’t planned to be

Probably just her being wierd, because no one else ever saw it.

[Rg2045]

7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What painting?

He flashbacks she see the painting that holds a secret safe as a blinding light

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Probably just her being wierd, because no one else ever saw it.

That’s definitely fair

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/30/2022 at 6:10 AM, Zrogezrg said:

Maybe I code too much, but what if the statement is not " ( none have ever died) and (returned to damnation)" but " none (have ever died and returned to damnation) "?

Huh! That is really interesting... especially with the weirdness about Shallan's mother's soul as @Rg2045 mentions.

Even if a Seon is involved... well the Stormfather is Tanavast's Cognitive shadow merged with a spren...

[+Harrycrapper]

On 6/15/2022 at 0:14 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, it seems he can see in an area around the person he's bonded to. For example, in Rhythm of War he has Dalinar walk back over to one of the bodies in Ishar's tent so that he can see it.

The problem with this is that Gavilar isn't bonded with the Stormfather. Sure he's receiving visions, but he's never had the intent to truly speak any of the Oaths. He never even had the ability to infuse Stormlight, which comes with the First Ideal. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

The problem with this is that Gavilar isn't bonded with the Stormfather.

The Stormfather says this, but is also clearly either lying or making heavily misleading statements already, so I don't think that can be trusted. I think he's probably in the proto-bond stage, like Kaladin for much of WoK, Dalinar for much of WoR, or Elhokar for pretty much the entire first three books, and the Stormfather is bending the truth (it may very well be that prior to the First Ideal the Radiants didn't consider the bond to be fully functional) because he is suspicious of Gavilar and doesn't want to hand him knowledge of the powers of a Bondsmith.

3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

He never even had the ability to infuse Stormlight, which comes with the First Ideal.

That he knows of. It took both Kaladin and Dalinar a little while to work out it was happening, and Elhokar seemingly didn't realize what was going on until right before his death. And for those three, it usually only happened when they were wounded or needed the Light for something without understanding it, so if Gavilar hadn't fought in a long time, he likely wouldn't have been in a situation where he'd instinctively take it in like the rest.

Quote

Sure he's receiving visions, but he's never had the intent to truly speak any of the Oaths.

From the sound of it, he did at first, though he lost that:

Quote

Let the Stormfather chew on that. Let him see sincerity in Gavilar. Storms…he felt it. Like he hadn’t in months. Standing there with a little king, before the map of the world, he felt it.

And the change Dalinar noticed in him to a focus on forging a united kingdom and lasting nation started almost twenty years before his death, so there was a long while where he probably was close to the Bondsmith Ideals imo. Sure, he was also a selfish prick who wanted glory, I'm not trying to say he was a nice person, but I don't know that that's inherently opposed to the Words. (I mean, the Stormfather thought the burning of Rathalas was chill and fine until he got further into the bond to Dalinar, neither Honor nor Cultivation necessitates good.)