Eluvianii

When They Cry

45 posts in this topic

Maria is my baby and I will kill for her. Child. Infant. Daughter. Cute. Love.

Nah it's the 1980s just like Higurashi. Kinzo's just a westaboo

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You know, I would say watching the opening is a bad idea because it seems to be full of spoilers but this is like Jojo openings, you don't notice the spoilers until they happen. As things stand I have no idea why Rosa would ever get into a shotgun duel with Natsuhi but now I really want to find out.

So anyway, bit of an update pre-Episode 1 ending since I'm just about to finish it but school refuses to give me time to read. Only a week and a half more...

First things first. The storming soundtrack. It was great from the beginning but then Fishy Aroma started playing and that was on another level. Then the, uh, event happened and I was too busy listening to the music to even worry.

Spoiler

So, when I read Maria's character profile saying that her speech was bothering Rosa I was immediately convinced that she was actually the most eloquent person on the island and that the Uu's were a choice. Nice to have that proven right so fast. I'll use this knowledge as an argument that the uu's must stay.

I thought Beatrice was just another character. I mean, like a main character but this whole deal about not even being sure if she exists is defying my expectations. At least I hope I can take Genji's dialogue on the matter as proof that she does exist, but still.

Loving the new tip system, quite literally a hint collector. We're detectives now. So, if Kyrie repeatedly calling Maria a key holder means anything, my current guess is that the river was the family line, Maria was the end of that river, and the rose garden the village. It seems like it doesn't matter that much anymore since we're past that point in the riddle and into the first twilight, but I'd like to have the whole thing solved at some point. The twilights also seemed a bit like Episodes, but of course, there's 10 twilights and only 8 Episodes. Hmmmm.

I like the characters so far. As of right now, I'm leaning towards Natsuhi as a favorite character. I'm pretty surprised about that considering that for me she had the worst first impression. Eva I feel like I would love if she used her sarcasm differently. Sarcasm can be endearing if used correctly, but Eva so far does not. Also, If Kinzo wasn't so stiff I think he would get along famously with Maria, please let that happen.

And, my biggest hope for this. Does magic actually play an important role here? Higurashi decided to confirm the existence of demons and started talking about prophecies and legendary swords but that was quite literally a post-credits scene after the very last arc. Before that the supernatural elements barely mattered to the story beyond explaining the time loop. But with Kinzo and Maria's obsession with black magic, the magic circles appearing, the word "witch" being a lot more prevalent than before, it all seems a lot more specific than the village rumors we had before. Please let magic be a big thing here, I'm scared of this being a repeat of Higurashi and finding out as we go that most of it was delusions and coincidences.

Currently stopped right after the murders were discovered and waiting for another chance to read.

 

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The original OPs for Umineko don't have any spoilers. The PS3 OPs are full of spoilers. You watched the PS3 OP it seems, which is chock full of them. I'd recommend against watching them again

Also you're definitely not near the end of Episode 1.

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I see. It's just that I saw the title read chapter 11, and since I was already closing in on 14 hours and the chapter was called Curtain-rise on tragedy... Well you can understand why I would think that. 

Also, I feel like I should be worried but I like scary Maria. I really like scary Maria. Under the current circumstances the bizarre mood she provides is so fun to read. 

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Back on track I think. I could only squeeze like a couple hours this last week but I'm trying to get a decent session today. 

Spoiler

I'm right at the point where the second killing is discovered. They had to give Eva a sympathetic moment right before killing her. 

I'm honestly at a loss. I've decided that for now at least there's no way powers are involved in the killing. A mystery involving magic only works if the reader knows the rules, and this hasn't been exactly forthcoming with that. 

I'm wondering how trustworthy the third person narrator is. There's been a lot of that in this story and it likes to present facts at the reader, but I don't know if it's actually omniscient or if it's just reflecting the thoughts of someone in the room. 

Back to the killing, I feel like in that time frame the only person whose location we didn't know was Genji, but of course, he was with Nanjo. 

Also, Battler just now noted how people in the family are really good at drawing. No coincidence he brings it up right before a new circle appears I bet. I feel like that's just another way to say that it indeed could be anyone. 

Edit: Ok, Maria seems to be speaking from a very lonely point of view. She's happy about the killings because she's unhappy with the way her life is now and she genuinely believes this incident is the key to a perfect future. I get that people are in a very unstable state right now and that seeing her laugh doesn't help but her words sound like a cry for help to me. I'm surprised the conclusion everyone else arrives to is "She's an accomplice".

 

Edited by Ookla the Coffee Drinker
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...this didn't end the way I expected it to.

So, the full-cast reviews were purely an extra before. A small chapter with a non-existent fourth wall where the characters looked at the story from the point of view of an actor discussing a play. They talked about the plot like fiction. While here, well.

Spoiler

Here the tea party started like that, but by the end it felt like the actual ending for the episode (I mean, it did have the end credits sequence). Like this was the tenth twilight, where everyone has to show they believe in Beatrice so she can start existing completely.

If I got this right, she's a Schrodinger's cat. She is killing people, and yet that only holds true if you acknowledge the fact. But if you somehow come up with an earthly explanation, doing so shatters that part of her being and suddenly she never existed in the first place. I find this kind of existence both fascinating and utterly confusing. I'll try not to think too hard about it but most likely will fail.

What I found most interesting about the tea party is that in the last moments Beatrice and Battler address the story as both characters and actors. Beatrice wants to exist and Battler wants to save his family, but at the same time it's a writing competition. Beatrice wrote a fantasy story, she wrote killings that were carried out through magic. And she's essentially challenging Battler to write a story that achieves the same result without magic.

That is so cool. It means I both get my wish and I don't. Because I just mentioned that a mystery involving magic requires knowledge of its rules, and Beatrice is explaining them now. At the very least now I know exactly how the stakes work. Now I can take them into account in my theories. And yet the logical explanation will come anyway. Two stories rolled into one, why not.

Oh yeah, Rika is here. I mean, I sort of knew that, but I had no idea what her role would be (Should I recognize the name Lambdadelta? LD?). So she's the link between the player and the game (I got jumpscared when her eyes shifted to the screen ngl). Actually, that ties into what's probably the thing I love the most about this so far.

This is, 100%, a game. The tip system saving the things I might want to reread so I can analyze them. Bernkastel personally addressing me and giving me hints about how I should try to solve this. The general meta nature of the story. This is a weird case where fourth wall breaks feel less like a character trying to leap out of the screen, and more like the story inviting me in to be a part of it. And of course, there are the things that were already present in Higurashi like the difficulty disclaimer, which is now phrased like an invitation from Beatrice so, again, it's like the story is inviting you in.

As a point of comparison in the mystery game genre, Ace Attorney is one of my favorite series. I love the characters, love the plot, love the mystery, I know very few dopamine inducers as strong as fully cornering the culprit during a final trial. However, that one does feel more like I'm being told a story. Sure, there's actual interaction, but it's more like a puzzle. My tasks are pixel hunting and matchmaking. There's reasoning involved, but it's on a smaller scale, and in the worst of cases you can brute force it.

Here, there's no input required from me. If I click enough times I'll eventually reach the end. But it's not like a book either, solving a mystery book would be a personal victory, disconnected from the story's world. Here I feel so involved. The game is inviting me to be another piece on the board, and I feel compelled to accept. It's telling me that if I solve this I'm doing so as one of the characters, not an outside observer. The story pulls me into itself like a really immersive game. Ironically, I can't recall another game at the moment that has given me that feeling.

That may have been an unnecessarily long and cheesy way of saying I'm enjoying this, but I'm just so impressed at what this is doing, and it's only the first episode.

Ok, that was a bit embarrassing, let me switch to the characters.

Forget "leaning", I think so far Natsuhi is hands down my favorite character. I might not agree with everything she says, but it's impossible not to respect her convictions and she has some of the best scenes. I also want her to be best friends with Eva. I know it'll work, fight me.

I'm still sad about Maria. Oh sure, everyone did come to understand her. After they chased her out of the room. That would have hurt her a lot if she wasn't so completely enthralled by Beatrice's promises. Oh, George also said that being a chuunibyou is a normal growing up thing. I like that, go Maria.

Oh yeah, Beatrice is cool. I like her. Can't believe her first appearance is during the tea party of all moments.

I find it a bit funny that Battler turned out like this because he was told as a kid that the supernatural didn't exist so that horror movies wouldn't scare him. If someone had gone and told that to me after I watched my first horror movie the only thing they would have accomplished would be to disappoint me. Massively.

Read a little bit of episode 2 and, George and Shannon feel like a couple that will be really strong by the end, but will need to fall apart first. They seemed... too perfect I guess. Like two flawed humans that don't yet know each other's flaws. As a contrast, Eva and Hideyoshi's heart to heart was amazing. It read like two experienced people that know the goods and bads of the other, and are happy to accept every bit of it. We're told from George's pov that him holding back on his own views is the right thing to do, so he doesn't "break the magic". And Shannon seems to be hiding some pretty interesting stuff too. Idk, I truly do want these two to be the cutest couple ever, but right now I get the impression that the way there will be rocky. Either that or I'm being insensitive which could be the case.

On the topic of Shannon hiding things, what's with the furniture thing anyway? We're told the servants are there by choice, and that most of them actually do resign, and yet they don't think themselves worthy of being called "human". What the hell do they teach them at that orphanage?

Also, "The 19th person is an invisible being that can't be seen" is a worthy successor to "People die when they are killed".

....ok I'm sorry about this. I posted several times as I read the thing in part so that these inter-episode posts would be shorter but I failed miserably. It's just, that last bit where the nature of the game is revealed really did surprise me and it felt worth talking about.

On to episode two. I'm really into it so far.

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Yeah, they're subverting what you expect from the "after Episode chat between characters" by making it clear very quickly that something isn't right, and then pulling the rug.out from under you. It's great, even if it causes me no end of headaches trying to force people who didn't like those in Higurashi to watch it without also spoiling them.

Lambdadelta is not a name that you would recognize. Her name, however, means 34. This is important because all of these WTC games have a character whose name is 34. But I'll save that for later.

It should be noted that the furniture thing is not consistent of all the servants. Only Shannon, Kanon, and Genji. Neither Kumasawa nor Gohda say anything of the sort, and Battler doesn't seem to remember anything about furniture.

Post however you want my guy. It's no trouble at all

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34? Miyo? Darn, maybe she got her wish after all.

I mean, yeah, I was excluding Gohda and Kumasawa by mentioning the orphanage, and of course, Genji is Genji. Like, it seems to be specifically the ones working directly under Kinzo. And from what I'm seeing, it seems to be thanks to a collection of bad experiences? People at the Gospel House don't seem particularly enviable, despite the good pay they get at their first job.

Regarding episode 2, not a lot of progress yet, but uh, the characters give plenty to talk about. Mainly Beatrice.

Spoiler

I'm really enjoying both sides of Beatrice, which means I'm also conflicted about it. Her scenes as a villain are delightful. The sweet talking smoothly devolving into her hitting you where she knows it'll hurt the most was amazing to read. However, her adorable-anachronistic-food-lover-in-dire-need-of-company persona is also really good and I want to see more of that. On the one hand she sounds despicable, with no regard for the people she uses. On the other hand she seems like a good person. Even her magic which sounded terribly immoral when she first mentioned it, seems to be pretty benign if used correctly. When people have two sides that different, one starts questioning whether one of them is fake. If that's the case I'm leaning towards evil Beatrice being fake, but again, she's so good at it. "I'm getting soft" she says...

Jessica is my spirit animal. Her cheering George and Shannon on but getting frustrated at how pure they are is my 1:1 reaction. That said, apparently Shannon can be pretty dangerous when she's in a good mood. George teases her frequently on small levels. Shannon teases you once a year but when she does she's relentless. Reminds me of the red flame-blue flame conversation back in Higurashi.

Also, Jessica is a lot of things but so far she doesn't look like a tsundere, come on Shannon. Looking forward to her romance arc, though by the state that relationship seemed to be in back in Episode 1, I'm not getting my hopes up just yet.

 

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By the way, since I've not mentioned it yet. Beatrice is actually my favorite character. Not in Umineko. In fiction. She's so wonderful. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I can definitely begin to see why. No matter how many horrible things she says, I just. Can't. Hate her. And I really want to see what's hiding below all that malice. But as things stand now, whenever she's not on screen I'm just eagerly waiting for her next scene. That said, on the matter of horrible things.

Spoiler

Right so, Kanon had a legit reason to remain unattached. Now I'm wondering though, does this mean they're humans who were told "You're gonna die young, better not to get too comfortable" and believed so, or is there even more beyond that? They're not homunculi are they? Either way, and no matter how many times Beatrice herself says otherwise, I can't see her actions toward Shannon as cruel. Letting a child grow up and die thinking herself to be worthless the entire time would be cruel. Letting her discover self-worth and love, even if it comes with grief, is the best gift you could ever give her.

And she agrees, like storms, that scene was amazing. She's really mature. The way she stood her ground with Beatrice was great.

I still don't know exactly what the story is. Beatrice mentioned fragments already, so the fact that she can jump between them and influence them kinda proves both that she exists and that she possesses power beyond that of a normal human. So, in-universe, Battler's stance makes no sense whatsoever. The only way I can see it making sense would be accepting the narrative as meta, in which case Battler is recognizing his own story as fiction, and is simply trying to prove that the genre is not fantasy. But while that's an extremely fun concept, it makes my head hurt to try to think of it as a story. I still don't know if the pieces will suddenly fall into place, or if that fuzzy duality is something I'll have to accept until the end.

Oh, the occasional glances at Kinzo's old self are heartwarming. I may be asking too much but when it's all over, it would be nice if he doesn't die immediately. A big part of this story seems to be that most of these people don't see each other wholeheartedly as family, and Kinzo is the absolute king of that mentality. If that were to change at any point, it would be a shame for him to die immediately after. Let him spend some time with his kids.

Waiting for the story to come back to the dining room as I write this. I was impatiently waiting for the letter to be read, buuuut the novel sent me to the guest house and it's late so I took that as my cue to stop for the day.

Also, Jessica continues to voice my every thought as I think them. She's literally me fr fr.

 

Edited by Eluvianii
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Here's the thing about Battler. He's a dumb boi. He doesn't once question the Meta world and all the things happening. His goal is not really disproving magic, his goal is in essence disproving magic on the island and in the murders. Think about it that way and Battler will make a lot more sense.

That said I wouldn't say to blindly accept that magic is real. 

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That, does make more sense. He doesn't care what his current situation is, he just saw a chance to get back at her and took it. That sounds equal parts admirable and stupid. Also not accepting magic is real just yet but I really, really want to.

Now, what the hell is this soundtrack? It's not normal to have this many good themes in a single game. You're supposed to have many ok ones, a few really good ones, and about 3 amazing ones, tops. This instead has many really good ones, a few amazing ones, and about 3 whatever is above amazing per episode. This has a lot of composers too, it's even more unusual in that case, games with too many composers tend to lack consistency but this is great.

I think my current favorite is Melody. That might change often.

So anyway, not a lot of progress since last time but I have to mention this.

Spoiler

The 6 sacrifices this time around are so ridiculously cool. The decorations, the candy, the fact that everyone turned into a freaking piñata. Narration even turned into the kind of prose you'd see in a kid's book for a bit too, it was so twisted. I really wish they were bolder with CGs, I want to see the table stormit!. And the irony that this is all set up to make Maria happy, which it definitely will. This is going to be one rough second half for her relationship with Rosa, not looking forward to that. I can empathize with her poor anger management skills, but she's dealing with it horrendously.

That's a good side-point actually. People are storming human. Did I mention this before? Basically I'm surprised how I can find every character so far (save for maybe Gohda) perfectly likable, but many of them have a trait or two that can make them look downright despicable. But it's still one flaw inside a much bigger person. Natsuhi is rigid and hard on servants but she's also kind and protective. Eva is manipulative and a hopeless classist but she cares for her family and is fun to hang out with as long as she's got nothing against you. So on and so forth. The characters are both easy to hate and to love depending on your own morals and priorities as a reader.

Back to the sacrifices, there's also the conversation the night before. Sure, we're missing about 6 hours here, but as things stand you'd think they were willingly sacrificed. Obviously not 100% sure on that though if it's true I'd guess it was either them or the kids so it checks out. I'm way more surprised at how calm everyone was at Beatrice "proving devils". Only Natsuhi was having the appropriate mental breakdown you'd expect when you're told magic is real and your life is interest in a deal your dad made.

Also "Ambulance! Police!" Thanks Gohda, that's thoughtful of you.

Ah, just remembered this too. Before Battler fell asleep the day before, Jessica tried to have a philosophical argument with him about how you're the protagonist of your own life and that therefore it's always your turn to be on stage, whereas Battler is repeating that right now it's not his turn. Higurashi parallels aside, Battler is too tired to respond appropriately, and Jessica ends the argument with "When is he going to get on stage then?". That's weird, she got way too worked up about this, like she was waiting for him to do something. My first thought is that she meant something about the family's issues, like he should be working on his reputation or making himself known to Kinzo or something. But if that was the case, Battler would be absolutely right, there's nothing he could have done on those fronts at the time, and resting so that he doesn't fall asleep at dinner and makes a fool of himself does sound more useful.

Taking a different angle though, Battler's side of the conversation almost sounded like he was aware that it's Beatrice's turn to move, while Jessica's sounded like he shouldn't just stand still and do nothing while she does. Am I reading too much into this? Even Maria seems weirdly aware of the loop, though I guess in her case it might just be that Beatrice filled her in.

Oh yeah, should I be taking note of sentences in italics? I figured they're just there for emphasis but I can't help thinking they're sometimes used in places that don't need emphasis, and that they're things that I should remember instead.

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Oh yeah, Umineko's soundtrack is absolutely.peak. It's my favorite soundtrack.

Yeah Umineko's characters are insanely well written. Gohda has humanizing characteristics too. He's as nasty as he is most of the time because all he wants is to be the chef. He hates that he's forced to do other things, but when it comes to food, he's perfectly content. He's a show off, maybe, but that just means he's proud of his skills.

 

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Well, it's not like I hate him, he's just annoying. Being a bully is nothing worthy of such a strong word as hate, but his bully side is literally the only part of him I've been shown. So that's very little to judge a character by, but not a good start. Well, make that past tense, but first of all...

Spoiler

They were homunculi! And furniture was a word for familiar! Dude, that's horrible, familiar is way more humanizing. At least I got some catharsis out of this. Kanon is human, and now he won't forget. Hope that's true. Even before he started performing miracles left and right, Keiichi kept some measure of character development from chapter to chapter. If Kanon does the same, maybe Episode 3 will be easier for him and Jessica.

Oh yeah, the spikes are anime girls. I... didn't see that coming. Also I'm sorry but I can't help but find Beatrice's messed up faces both creepy and incredibly funny. I'll struggle to take her seriously when she does that.

Godha also got his first cool scene. Not much, but it was cute. I'll get my hopes up.

You know, I think so far in regards to Maria, I like her relationship with Battler the most. Rosa can't deal with her at all. George is great at handling her, but only when she's in little girl mode. He's no good when she goes witch mode. During these second halves, they all get mad at her for going witch mode, but Battler deals with it by accepting that side of hers, letting her speak when appropriate, stopping her when she goes overboard, and most important of all, remaining calm the whole time, if obviously ticked. I think he's the only one that, if maybe doesn't exactly understand her, at least understands the most how to treat her, with both respect and sternness.

 

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The back and forth between Battler and Beatrice in Chessland is so ridiculously satisfying. 

Spoiler

I do however wonder how Battler expects to prove that the culprit is human but that no one on the island is the culprit. 

 

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Okok I have something this time. This only works assuming Battler's in the right of course, but for the sake of protagonism I have to assume he is.

Spoiler

You can only trust what happens in Battler's presence!

Beatrice can't present lies to him, not sure why, probably because he's right in front of her. If she tried to show him a display of magic, it would probably be obvious to him that it's fiction. But she can lie to the reader. Once Battler's not around she removes the brakes. Self-sacrifice in front of an unknown threat, magic bullets that kill the one who fired them, a sword duel to protect the girl you love, a magic user using her privileged knowledge to unmask a doppelganger. All really cool but also really tropey and arguably too over the top for the story at hand, which is probably intentional.

And most importantly, once Battler gets to the scene all that remains is a corpse. The past 20 minutes of magic duels become completely irrelevant because the whole thing can be solved just as well with a dude and a knife.

I feel like I cheated a little because a clue you gave me was a huge help. You said Battler doesn't recall anything about furniture. So the whole "servants think they don't deserve humanity because they're actually familiars" is part of the lie Beatrice wants to sell us.

That's also kinda cool because it plays with the whole "the player is another character and Rika is counting on them" aspect of this. Beatrice not only makes efforts to throw Battler off. She's also fighting you as a player.

Rika said Beatrice was the rules of the game themselves more than a tangible person, and that you have to figure out the rules in order to beat her. I think that's one. She also said you have to figure out each character's personality to know the requirements for a good ending, so my current guess is that Beatrice's version of the characters will act differently to their real counterparts, even if just slightly, so you have to filter the differences or something. Idk, I'm less confident about that part.

This is reminding me a lot of another VN called One Thousand Lies. Both stories are extremely different from one another, but now that I remember it exists, I'm starting to think the author read Umineko, and applied some of its fiction vs reality shenanigans there. There's a couple twists that remind me of Beatrice and her mo. Back when I read it a few years ago it blew me away tbh, but it has been like 7 years, so I don't know if it would hold up now. It's also more of a slice of life comedy, and it's nowhere near as long as this. I'll have to reread it because now I'm curious if I'll find any direct references.

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When it comes to theories, I wouldn't assume Battler is right automatically by virtue of being protagonist. Ryukishi likes to play with it, and sometimes he says something right, and other times he says something very wrong lmao.

I wouldn't say I gave a hint necessarily. Whether or not they considered themselves furniture back then, Battler doesn't remember it. Could be that they didn't call themselves that, could be that he just forgot, could be they thought it to themselves but didn't say anything. Could be that Kanon's presence changes something, because he wasn't around back then. A lot of possibilities. 

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Agh, the frustration. Having to leave the tea party for tomorrow after that ending!

Well anyway, first things first. You're right, it's dangerous to assume Battler's right. What I meant was more along the lines that proving him right seems to be the goal of the story, at least for now. Coming up with a logical explanation for everything is a lot harder than simply accepting a magic system with no rules, so any clue that helps solve that is a step forward. Besides, the particular bit I talked about only works in one direction. If I tried to flip the variables and use it as proof that Battler is wrong, it only would open more questions and answer none.

And I mean, sure, your comment made no particular sense to me back then, but you made it sound significant. So I had it on the back of my mind all the time until it clicked with another piece. Although...

Spoiler

Ryukishi led me on right into that one and challenged it right away. Oh I'm not letting go of it, I think there's some truth there, but the moment Battler saw the golden butterflies in Kinzo's study I was already feeling the theory starting to crack. Still, the butterflies could be explained, and Battler was a bit drunk. Apart from that I'm willing to disregard the entire banquet sequence. No Battler sprite means no Battler, his voice has to be a narrative trick. Crap, I'm starting to sound like him....

Now, I said what I said but I also think all the fiction scenes have to contain some truth, at least on an emotional level. I mean, Shannon really storming broke Beatrice back there, huh? That girl was betrayed, hard. And right after that Kinzo starts apologizing like crazy. I want the details.

Also, the post-credits scene did bring about something nice. I was kinda disappointed that even though Natsuhi did some horrible things as the leader last episode, she ultimately was this force to be reckoned with worthy of respect, while Rosa was just.... that. But she got her moment and man was it sweet. I really, really, really hope that sticks between worlds.

Yeah see? I just contradicted myself. The magic scenes didn't happen but the understanding between Rosa and Maria did? So I want that one clause to the rule. Hope it's true, if you told me all the bonding in this episode was a lie that would be seriously disappointing.

Anyway, I'm speaking too soon. Can't wait for the tea party tomorrow to destroy any relevant bits I just said.

 

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