Mistborn vs Jedi   29 members have voted

  1. 1. Who would win in a 1 v 1 fight

  2. 2. 2v2


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101 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If the force isn't invested, then jedi aren't invested, so stuff inside bodies is fair game.

Except that metal inside someone, even inside random people off the street, is always hard to affect.

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3 minutes ago, Tani said:

Except that metal inside someone, even inside random people off the street, is always hard to affect.

Not if people in Star Wars don’t have investiture in their souls, which, if the force doesn’t count, they don’t.

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2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Not if people in Star Wars don’t have investiture in their souls, which, if the force doesn’t count, they don’t.

Therefore, since we aren't counting the Force as Investiture, the Mistborn don't have any connection to the Force and don't have any fragment of the Force in them and are somewhat like droids to the Jedi.

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3 minutes ago, Tani said:

Therefore, since we aren't counting the Force as Investiture, the Mistborn don't have any connection to the Force and don't have any fragment of the Force in them and are somewhat like droids to the Jedi.

Yep. Already brought that up.

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3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Upgrade her daggers and Vin could have utterly trashed most of the droid army in Episode 2.

Small fact that blaster bolts are faster than her and droidekas have sheilds.

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22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Small fact that blaster bolts are faster than her and droidekas have sheilds.

Would shields block Steelpushes? I'm not sure if they would. Really though, she would only use daggers (or vibroblades I think is the Star Wars equivalent) as part of taking out enemies while moving around with Iron and Steel, daggers would not be her primary offensive tactic. Droids are unusually susceptible to breaking after getting pushed over by telekinesis, it's a bit odd. No, she'd probably go to town with Duralumin Pushes, maybe creating some metal dust sandstorms to confuse sensors. If you just drop her into the war, yeah she'll have issues not dying immediately, but I think if she knew what was going on she could do just fine.

Again, depends on what canon you ascribe to, but either blaster bolts either go at the speed of light (invisibly with the "visible shot" simply a radiation effect that follows after) and Han Solo regularly dodges them anyway, or if you look at the speed of the bolts fired from standard blasters as they travel in the movies, various people have calculated them to be anywhere from 78 to 135 mph. By comparison, a medieval crossbow fires bolts at around 95 mph, longbows around 105 mph, something Vin has ample experience dealing with, even with arrows without metal. Yes, droids have rapid fire, but Vin is small and really good at not staying still long enough to get hit by people.

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21 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Would shields block Steelpushes?

No but they are heavier than she is so that's not going to be an issue for them.

22 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Again, depends on what canon you ascribe to, but either blaster bolts either go at the speed of light (invisibly with the "visible shot" simply a radiation effect that follows after) and Han Solo regularly dodges them anyway, or if you look at the speed of the bolts fired from standard blasters as they travel in the movies, various people have calculated them to be anywhere from 78 to 135 mph. By comparison, a medieval crossbow fires bolts at around 95 mph, longbows around 105 mph, something Vin has ample experience dealing with, even with arrows without metal. Yes, droids have rapid fire, but Vin is small and really good at not staying still long enough to get hit by people.

I don't think she ever doges anything moving near that fast, generally she pushes against it instead.

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Didn't read the whole post, so if this was already covered - I apologize:

I would expect this to be like other "different universe" battle speculation.

If the confrontation takes place in the Cosmere, the Mistborn wins; if it takes place in a galaxy far far away, the Jedi wins.

Example WoB

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Would a Shardblade be able to hurt Steelheart?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I think it would.

Questioner

If the person feared him, would they still be able to hurt him?

Brandon Sanderson

Even if they didn't fear him, if you mashed Steelheart into the cosmere--which it's not, but if you did, the Steelheart magics would all have to work on the cosmere magics, which means that a Shardblade could hurt him. If you had a Shardblade, you could hurt someone even if you didn't know their weakness. That would be a way it would have to work. Now, if you were to mash them all into Steelheart's universe, then maybe not.

 

The Force in the Cosmere would either not work, or would have to conform to Cosmere constants (like Fortune, Connection, Identity and the Three realms). Allomancy, in Jediverse, would either not work or conform to whatever standards and limitations that magic uses (Copper, Atium, etc.)

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1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Didn't read the whole post, so if this was already covered - I apologize:

I would expect this to be like other "different universe" battle speculation.

If the confrontation takes place in the Cosmere, the Mistborn wins; if it takes place in a galaxy far far away, the Jedi wins.

Example WoB

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Questioner

Would a Shardblade be able to hurt Steelheart?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I think it would.

Questioner

If the person feared him, would they still be able to hurt him?

Brandon Sanderson

Even if they didn't fear him, if you mashed Steelheart into the cosmere--which it's not, but if you did, the Steelheart magics would all have to work on the cosmere magics, which means that a Shardblade could hurt him. If you had a Shardblade, you could hurt someone even if you didn't know their weakness. That would be a way it would have to work. Now, if you were to mash them all into Steelheart's universe, then maybe not.

 

The Force in the Cosmere would either not work, or would have to conform to Cosmere constants (like Fortune, Connection, Identity and the Three realms). Allomancy, in Jediverse, would either not work or conform to whatever standards and limitations that magic uses (Copper, Atium, etc.)

I don't like that logic of "everything must conform to the laws of one universe or the other"

Why can't jedi powers opperate under the laws of the Star Wars universe and Mistborn powers opperate under Cosmere laws?

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14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't like that logic of "everything must conform to the laws of one universe or the other"

Why can't Jedi powers operate under the laws of the Star Wars universe and Mistborn powers operate under Cosmere laws?

Well, where is the fight? I understand that you are very pro-Jedi; but location is a thing, and with the Cosmere, location matters.

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Just now, Treamayne said:

Well, where is the fight? I understand that you are very pro-Jedi; but location is a thing, and with the Cosmere, location matters.

Some neutral third world where both sides have full acess to their abilities created by us the fandom for our amusement.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Some neutral third world where both sides have full access to their abilities created by us the fandom for our amusement.

Your head-canon; your rules.

Nobody can say how the powers would interact in such an environment. Futuresight(FS)/Atium may play out how you thought on Page 1 (which is when I realized it was four pages and skipped to the end); but since Force FS has never had to deal with an opponent that can alter the future based on Fortune and Glimpses into the spiritual realm, it is just as likely that Force FS would fail to work or even cause damage to the Jedi trying to sense information from a realm to which they have no Connection and cannot possibly understand (Ref: the 10 seconds that Fuzz showed Kell Fortune that left him pained, gasping and unable to think).

Which is why speculation like this is useless, because it will always come down to:

  • Realm A - A wins
  • Realm B - B wins
  • Realm C - cannot be determined, so the thread will drag on in arguments and flame-wars as people just blindly try to "reason" a way to make their favorite the victor.
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8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Your head-canon; your rules.

Nobody can say how the powers would interact in such an environment. Futuresight(FS)/Atium may play out how you thought on Page 1 (which is when I realized it was four pages and skipped to the end); but since Force FS has never had to deal with an opponent that can alter the future based on Fortune and Glimpses into the spiritual realm, it is just as likely that Force FS would fail to work or even cause damage to the Jedi trying to sense information from a realm to which they have no Connection and cannot possibly understand (Ref: the 10 seconds that Fuzz showed Kell Fortune that left him pained, gasping and unable to think).

How is that any different from listening to the Will of the Force?

And besides Atium on its own is not strong enough to peer into the spirirtual realm.

We know for a fact that ANY future sight messes with Atium.

Spoiler

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

We also know that Jedi can use precognition against other beings with precognition.

Therefore Atium must be negativly inpacted to the point of uselessness, but the Jedi must still be able to use their ability.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which is why speculation like this is useless, because it will always come down to:

  • Realm A - A wins
  • Realm B - B wins
  • Realm C - cannot be determined, so the thread will drag on in arguments and flame-wars as people just blindly try to "reason" a way to make their favorite the victor.

That is strictly not true. I can name several isntances in which no matter which rules you opperate under one side wins. And aside from that Realm C is the only one that matters beacuse no one asking this kind of question wants an unfair fight. Forcing one side to conform to the other is disengenuous to the spirit of this thread, as it forces one side to play by the other sides rules for no reason.

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Uh... @Frustration, no offense but I think you get some tunnel vision when you get into defending your stance on these debates. Did you really say that droideka are heavy so Duralumin Pushes are ineffective against them? Canonically, what can Vin do with Duralumin Steelpushes, starting from the very first time we ever see Duralumin in combat? You're the expert that people summon to see if there are any WoBs to settle disputes, because you're really, really good at pulling out this kind of information, but... do you think droideka are heavier or more solid anchors than everything that Vin has ever thrown with Duralumin Steel despite being one of smallest Mistborn we've seen?

Droideka weigh 75 kilos, or 165 lbs.

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Posted (edited)

The average horse weigh's about 660 lbs or around 300 kilos and Vin threw them by their horse shoes with riders off.

Edited by The Wandering Wizard
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58 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Uh... @Frustration, no offense but I think you get some tunnel vision when you get into defending your stance on these debates. Did you really say that droideka are heavy so Duralumin Pushes are ineffective against them? Canonically, what can Vin do with Duralumin Steelpushes, starting from the very first time we ever see Duralumin in combat? You're the expert that people summon to see if there are any WoBs to settle disputes, because you're really, really good at pulling out this kind of information, but... do you think droideka are heavier or more solid anchors than everything that Vin has ever thrown with Duralumin Steel despite being one of smallest Mistborn we've seen?

Droideka weigh 75 kilos, or 165 lbs.

I wasn't refering to Duralumin.

Honestly in that kind of situation using duralumin would be a last resort, because otherwise you're out of steel.

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Having read through the thread, I have to be on the side of the Jedi, barring exceptional circumstances average Jedi beats average Mistborn ~9/10 .
The reason is, that nearly anything Mistborn can do, Jedi can and sometimes better + Jedi have powers Mistborn don't (most notably they effectively have F-steel + ability to slow people down at distance, and yes both of these powers were demonstrated by Padawans as young as 12, so no experts).

Caveat is that I assume that that Force precognition cancels out with Atium, as Atium shows you what opponent will do, so you can react. However Force precognition gives you information on danger couple of seconds into future, and allows you to adjust to avoid it (see Chiss navigators using it to safely move through hyperspace). So since Force precognition allows you to adjust your actions thanks to knowledge of future, it should lead to splitting of future shadows.
(Alternative and much more funny possibility is that the Atium shadow does not split, but simply changes whenever Mistborn changes his mind about future course of action. That would be quite confusing.)

Now with the biggest elephant out of the room, steel+iron are discount telekinesis, so Jedi have advantage there. Admittedly, Jedi typically don't fly around (though there are some that can) but that is (in my mind) more than compensated by the fact they have freedom of moving objects how they wish + don't need to be heavier then the object. I think basic restrictions (i.e. you cannot push on metals inside someones body) would still apply, so no pulling on metal filings in teeth or piercing, much less trace metals in body (which is out of scope of every Mistborn we have seen, exception being only Vin+Mists).

Powerful soothing or rioting could throw Jedi out of balance, but Jedi have a mind trick, which is more versatile tool of a more direct application.

Copper and Bronze would be irrelevant, as they function strictly on Investiture pulses, so Jedi would register as either a un-living object or as regular being.

Cadmium is irrelevant, but Bendalloy could be useful for quick repositioning at a distance or for cancelling some of Jedi abilities.

Pewter is the one metal where Jedi has no direct competitor, however Jedi does not have to be human and a lot of species are stronger or faster then humans, so for simplicity assuming human, Mistborn have advantage of strength.

Duralumin is a wild card, but if Mistborn uses it and does not win, they are left without metals for couple of second which would allow Jedi victory.


On the other hand, Jedi could use Force Stasis to freeze Mistborn in place for couple of second, close the distance in less then a second with Force Speed and win.
Or they could you the mind trick to tell Mistborn to throw away all vials with metals. Or they could directly grab them with telekinesis and choke them out (if we allow Jedi = force user).

I think the only way Mistborn could win is if they hit Jedi with a powerful soothing or rioting (duralumin empowered) from a distance which is greater than what Jedi can act on, and then quickly strike a killing blow. If Mistborn cannot do that, or the soothing/rioting fails to have desired effect, they won't win, since shot coins are countered either by lightsaber, or telekinesis, or force stasis or force speed, taking away the one long range option of Mistborn.
 

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On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

Having read through the thread, I have to be on the side of the Jedi, barring exceptional circumstances average Jedi beats average Mistborn ~9/10 .
The reason is, that nearly anything Mistborn can do, Jedi can and sometimes better + Jedi have powers Mistborn don't (most notably they effectively have F-steel + ability to slow people down at distance, and yes both of these powers were demonstrated by Padawans as young as 12, so no experts).

The thing is, if jedi actually used force speed like Obi-wan and Qui-gon did in Padawan Menace, they wouldn't be at all threatened by just about anyone. Jango Fett killed a member of the jedi council by shooting him a couple times. How did that happen if even a padawan can slow people down to a crawl? How can bounty hunters without the force go toe-to-toe with jedi in hand-to-hand combat?

On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

Now with the biggest elephant out of the room, steel+iron are discount telekinesis, so Jedi have advantage there. Admittedly, Jedi typically don't fly around (though there are some that can) but that is (in my mind) more than compensated by the fact they have freedom of moving objects how they wish + don't need to be heavier then the object. I think basic restrictions (i.e. you cannot push on metals inside someones body) would still apply, so no pulling on metal filings in teeth or piercing, much less trace metals in body (which is out of scope of every Mistborn we have seen, exception being only Vin+Mists).

For a jedi to use precision telekinesis requires a lot of effort. Yes, they can do the odd force push or pull, but they rarely do so while actively avoiding getting stabbed, or while having their emotions rioted. (Which a Mistborn can do constantly)

On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

Powerful soothing or rioting could throw Jedi out of balance, but Jedi have a mind trick, which is more versatile tool of a more direct application.

More versatile? Maybe. It's also a lot more limited. They can't affect strong-willed individuals. Even working together, several jedi masters failed to manipulate Cad Bane. Soothing and rioting can affect anyone, takes basically no focus, leaving the Mistborn able to fight while putting the jedi at a serious disadvantage in terms of their ability to use the force.

On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

On the other hand, Jedi could use Force Stasis to freeze Mistborn in place for couple of second, close the distance in less then a second with Force Speed and win.

Force Stasis is an ability that I don't believe we've seen anyone other than Cal Kestis use often, and again, jedi's powers are wildly inconsistent. Why didn't Coleman Trebor just freeze Jango and kill him like you described? Why Didn't the jedi do that to General Grievous the first time he tried to kill one of them?

On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

Or they could you the mind trick to tell Mistborn to throw away all vials with metals. Or they could directly grab them with telekinesis and choke them out (if we allow Jedi = force user).

Again, mind tricks don't work on the strong-willed, which I'm assuming a Mistborn is.

On 6/11/2022 at 2:06 AM, therunner said:

I think the only way Mistborn could win is if they hit Jedi with a powerful soothing or rioting (duralumin empowered) from a distance which is greater than what Jedi can act on, and then quickly strike a killing blow. If Mistborn cannot do that, or the soothing/rioting fails to have desired effect, they won't win, since shot coins are countered either by lightsaber, or telekinesis, or force stasis or force speed, taking away the one long range option of Mistborn.

Why bother with that? Engage the jedi in close combat, constantly push and pull on their lightsaber to keep it out of play, riot all their negative emotions. A jedi's ability to use the force is tied to their ability to control their emotions. Rioting them will cripple most jedi.

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On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

The thing is, if jedi actually used force speed like Obi-wan and Qui-gon did in Padawan Menace, they wouldn't be at all threatened by just about anyone. Jango Fett killed a member of the jedi council by shooting him a couple times. How did that happen if even a padawan can slow people down to a crawl? How can bounty hunters without the force go toe-to-toe with jedi in hand-to-hand combat?

Agree on the inconsistency. In principle Jedi council member who went to direct combat shouldn't have been that easy to kill.
I would point out that on Mistborn side, people bring up Fullborn as literally unstoppable killing machines based on their theoretical powers, yet the only one we have actually seen went out quite easily.

So for the purpose of my argument I took just the powers as is.

On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

For a jedi to use precision telekinesis requires a lot of effort. Yes, they can do the odd force push or pull, but they rarely do so while actively avoiding getting stabbed, or while having their emotions rioted. (Which a Mistborn can do constantly)

They regularly use those powers in lightsaber duels? So yes they do use it in combat?
And regarding emotions, Sith use lightsaber form Dun Moch, which utilizes taunts and mental attacks to throw opponent off-guard (in Legends at least) so Jedi could be used to such attack.
I'd also argue that Jedi telekinesis requires much less effort than what Mistborn can achieve with metals.

On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

More versatile? Maybe. It's also a lot more limited. They can't affect strong-willed individuals. Even working together, several jedi masters failed to manipulate Cad Bane. Soothing and rioting can affect anyone, takes basically no focus, leaving the Mistborn able to fight while putting the jedi at a serious disadvantage in terms of their ability to use the force.

And even regular people can resist rioting or soothing, i.e. strong willed individuals are not that much affected see Vin for example.
Duralumin enhanced would break even such people though.

Also if the person with force was a Jedi, soothing would most likely help them focus, not hinder them, as they are meant to be and stay serene. Vice versa for a Sith, who would be 'supercharged' by rioting.

On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

Force Stasis is an ability that I don't believe we've seen anyone other than Cal Kestis use often, and again, jedi's powers are wildly inconsistent. Why didn't Coleman Trebor just freeze Jango and kill him like you described? Why Didn't the jedi do that to General Grievous the first time he tried to kill one of them?

Well, it is relatively new. Technically both Revan and Exile used it quite often, and on multiple targets at once. So did Kylo Ren, and I think Vader as well in recent comics.

The main issue on that is certain lack of consistency, in that powers are being added over time, and sometimes they retroactively create plot-holes in scenes (i.e. if Force user can catch a ship, why did Obi-Wan not hold down Jango's ship in AOTC? ) From that perspective, this entire discussion is potentially meaningless, unless bounds are agreed upon.
My stance is that I take powers that are demonstrably learnable (e.g. not psychometry) and assuming Jedi knows them, as most Jedi demonstrate multiple abilites. If those powers were demonstrated by a padawan, all the better.

On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

Again, mind tricks don't work on the strong-willed, which I'm assuming a Mistborn is.

Then I can assume Jedi/Sith are strong willed, and rioting and soothing has less of an actual effect through self-control which is possible, as Vin demonstrates in TFA.

On 14/06/2022 at 2:01 PM, Nameless said:

Why bother with that? Engage the jedi in close combat, constantly push and pull on their lightsaber to keep it out of play, riot all their negative emotions. A jedi's ability to use the force is tied to their ability to control their emotions. Rioting them will cripple most jedi.

Ok, Jedi simply holds the lightsaber in hand through force, or guides it through air using Force and slices Mistborn in half. Not to mention lightsaber does not have to be made out of metal at all.

Actually, control over emotions is not necessary to use force, Jedi do that to insulate themselves from the Dark Side. Disrupting their focus would make it more difficult, unless you pushed them too far and they tapped Dark Side, where those same emotions are actually helping them (see e.g. Luke in ROTJ, Rey in TROS).
If that force user is Sith, it would go even worse for Mistborn.

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4 hours ago, therunner said:

They regularly use those powers in lightsaber duels? So yes they do use it in combat?
And regarding emotions, Sith use lightsaber form Dun Moch, which utilizes taunts and mental attacks to throw opponent off-guard (in Legends at least) so Jedi could be used to such attack.
I'd also argue that Jedi telekinesis requires much less effort than what Mistborn can achieve with metals.

You mean like the time Yoda, greatest jedi in all the order, was distracted enough by a falling pillar that he let Dooku escape unopposed? Maybe the multitude of times when a jedi paused in the middle of combat or took advantage of a lull to pull their lightsaber to them? While jedi do sometimes use pushes or pulls, they rarely do anything requiring precision.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

And even regular people can resist rioting or soothing, i.e. strong willed individuals are not that much affected see Vin for example.
Duralumin enhanced would break even such people though.

Vin was never able to control the emotions, she only controlled her reaction to them. For a jedi to use the force requires control of emotions.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Also if the person with force was a Jedi, soothing would most likely help them focus, not hinder them, as they are meant to be and stay serene. Vice versa for a Sith, who would be 'supercharged' by rioting.

Which is why you riot a jedi and sooth a sith. Not vice versa.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Well, it is relatively new. Technically both Revan and Exile used it quite often, and on multiple targets at once. So did Kylo Ren, and I think Vader as well in recent comics.

Revan may be canon, but I'm pretty sure that almost all of the games and media surrounding him are non-canon, so he and the Exile using it don't count.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

The main issue on that is certain lack of consistency, in that powers are being added over time, and sometimes they retroactively create plot-holes in scenes (i.e. if Force user can catch a ship, why did Obi-Wan not hold down Jango's ship in AOTC? ) From that perspective, this entire discussion is potentially meaningless, unless bounds are agreed upon.
My stance is that I take powers that are demonstrably learnable (e.g. not psychometry) and assuming Jedi knows them, as most Jedi demonstrate multiple abilites. If those powers were demonstrated by a padawan, all the better.

A problem with this logic is that a lot of jedi abilities are technically learnable, but most jedi don't know them/aren't naturally talented in them. Cal's master didn't use force stasis, even though, by your logic, he should have been even better at it than Cal himself. Different Jedi are naturally skilled in different force powers, even those that can technically be learned by anyone, and I highly doubt a random jedi off the street is going to be skilled in every single one of the learnable force powers.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Then I can assume Jedi/Sith are strong willed, and rioting and soothing has less of an actual effect through self-control which is possible, as Vin demonstrates in TFA.

Again, the emotions cannot be changed or blocked, only their reaction to the emotions. A jedi still needs to have control over their emotions (which is impossible with rioting) in order to properly use the force.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Actually, control over emotions is not necessary to use force, Jedi do that to insulate themselves from the Dark Side. Disrupting their focus would make it more difficult, unless you pushed them too far and they tapped Dark Side, where those same emotions are actually helping them (see e.g. Luke in ROTJ, Rey in TROS).
If that force user is Sith, it would go even worse for Mistborn.

Yes, fighting a sith could be bad (until you switched to soothing) but most normal jedi are trained enough to withstand destabilized emotions without immediately tapping into the dark side, meaning they will simply be weakened.

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7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Revan may be canon, but I'm pretty sure that almost all of the games and media surrounding him are non-canon, so he and the Exile using it don't count.

I'm going by canon pre-2012, or "real canon" as I call it.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm going by canon pre-2012, or "real canon" as I call it.

Because Disney ruins everything.

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

You mean like the time Yoda, greatest jedi in all the order, was distracted enough by a falling pillar that he let Dooku escape unopposed? Maybe the multitude of times when a jedi paused in the middle of combat or took advantage of a lull to pull their lightsaber to them? While jedi do sometimes use pushes or pulls, they rarely do anything requiring precision.

Not a falling pillar a pillar that was actively brought down by another force user, Dooku, if my memory is correct.

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Vin was never able to control the emotions, she only controlled her reaction to them. For a jedi to use the force requires control of emotions.

Yes, so Jedi could also control their reaction.

And again, no using force does not require control of emotions for a Jedi, emotions will not shut down a Jedi's powers, unless you mean to tell me that Obi-Wan felt nothing when dueling Maul after Qui-Gon died, or when dueling Vader on Mustafar, or Luke attacking Vader after Vader taunted him about Leia. In all of those instances Jedi clearly does feel powerful emotions, yet they are still capable of using force.

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Which is why you riot a jedi and sooth a sith. Not vice versa.

And how is mistborn to tell who are they facing? It is not like they have Sith/Jedi detector power, and before you say Lightsaber color, see Vader in ROTS.

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Revan may be canon, but I'm pretty sure that almost all of the games and media surrounding him are non-canon, so he and the Exile using it don't count.

KOTOR is being remastered/remade, but admittedly we don't know the extent of changes. This still leaves Kylo Ren and Cal Kestis, neither of which completed their trainings, suggesting Force Statis is not that special of a power (and Cal Kestis is not that powerful even).

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

A problem with this logic is that a lot of jedi abilities are technically learnable, but most jedi don't know them/aren't naturally talented in them. Cal's master didn't use force stasis, even though, by your logic, he should have been even better at it than Cal himself. Different Jedi are naturally skilled in different force powers, even those that can technically be learned by anyone, and I highly doubt a random jedi off the street is going to be skilled in every single one of the learnable force powers.

Agreed, so in that sense comparing a Jedi and a Mistborn does not make sense, as Jedi are much more variable in their powers and skillsets.
We are also assuming that Mistborn has access to every metal we know power of, even though some metals are not contemporary to our knowledge.
EDIT: Ah, no we do not, we assume Era 1 mistborn, apologies for my inattention. In that case Mistborn have no way to counter Force speed or Force Stasis, so as long the Jedi knows those two powers, they should be able to win.


But we can look at Jedi who are combat active and there are commonalities there, i.e. speed, minor precognition, pushes/pulls, minor telekinesis, in newer canon also stasis.

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Again, the emotions cannot be changed or blocked, only their reaction to the emotions. A jedi still needs to have control over their emotions (which is impossible with rioting) in order to properly use the force.

No they don't, they just need to not let the emotions control them, see my examples of Jedi being emotional and yet fully capable of fighting and using force.

Edited by therunner
I am dumb, and did not pay enough attention to Thread title
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On 6/14/2022 at 7:01 AM, Nameless said:

The thing is, if jedi actually used force speed like Obi-wan and Qui-gon did in Padawan Menace, they wouldn't be at all threatened by just about anyone. Jango Fett killed a member of the jedi council by shooting him a couple times. How did that happen if even a padawan can slow people down to a crawl? How can bounty hunters without the force go toe-to-toe with jedi in hand-to-hand combat?

For a jedi to use precision telekinesis requires a lot of effort. Yes, they can do the odd force push or pull, but they rarely do so while actively avoiding getting stabbed, or while having their emotions rioted. (Which a Mistborn can do constantly)

More versatile? Maybe. It's also a lot more limited. They can't affect strong-willed individuals. Even working together, several jedi masters failed to manipulate Cad Bane. Soothing and rioting can affect anyone, takes basically no focus, leaving the Mistborn able to fight while putting the jedi at a serious disadvantage in terms of their ability to use the force.

Force Stasis is an ability that I don't believe we've seen anyone other than Cal Kestis use often, and again, jedi's powers are wildly inconsistent. Why didn't Coleman Trebor just freeze Jango and kill him like you described? Why Didn't the jedi do that to General Grievous the first time he tried to kill one of them?

Again, mind tricks don't work on the strong-willed, which I'm assuming a Mistborn is.

Why bother with that? Engage the jedi in close combat, constantly push and pull on their lightsaber to keep it out of play, riot all their negative emotions. A jedi's ability to use the force is tied to their ability to control their emotions. Rioting them will cripple most jedi.

Honestly a Jedi is (in a pure combative state) a weakened sith. so rioting them might lead them to the dark side and make them more dangerous. 

also masters are masters of their emotions and the force to learn secrets of the dark side. To not be tempted beyond what they can resist. Not masters of combat tho some masters are that. 


Jedi can also continue fighting well past points of death (similar to a pewter arms) (also sith are much better at this skill) 

 

also any mistborn (vin included) can’t fight a droid army. The whole point is that they outnumber and over power you. We have seen Jedi over powered by them even when backed by an army. mistborns will instead lose their metals and be just another person. Also they don’t have a reliable method of taking one down. They will literally have to steal a gun and then use that. Glass vs metal is an obvious bad idea

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